First, is Shawn still running the Vaults, or has it been passed off to someone else?
Second, What does the officialness of the Vaults entail? Besides being allowed to declare cannon material (which at one time I was disappointed he had chosen not to do, after reading the MML archives, I now agree was a wise decision) what can he/can't he do with the setting and site?
What is M3E's relation to the Vault's and it's officialness? I know Jim Butler and Bruce Heard both made overt declarations that they wanted Mystara to be converted, and thus gave WotC's tacit approval. Is M3E, have the same officialness that the Vaults have, being basically an extension of the Vaults? Same question for the Almanacs...
What's going on with M3E? I haven't recieved an email from their msg board in MONTHS and the site hasn't been updated in over 2 yrs...
If M3e group has been disbanded, is there anyone actively working to re-start it?
If an independant fan created a d20/3e "Mystara Campaign Setting" pdf and submitted it to the Vaults, might it replace (the aparently stagnant) M3e, or is the goal still going on in a more quiet forum to be revealed to the world when the project is completed?
Anyway, it mostly boils down to this:
- Shawn is still running the Vaults (and let me say I hope he will do so for a long time)
- The "nothing is official" policy includes the Almanacs and 3e conversion project.
What I'd really like to comment on, however, is that Shawn's policy works well because we Mystarans are a quite diverse bunch -- while 3e people may now be the majority, there are quite some OD&D fans and a few AD&D gamers (me, for instance).
If you look at what happened with the other official websites -- especially Planescape's -- you'll see that the focus on official releases of 3e conversion meant that little else was produced: where in the beginning the old Planescape official website (mimir.net) was more or less on par with the Vaults, nowadays Planewalker.com offers mostly (parts of) a 3e conversion, while the Vaults are easily the largest official website of them all.
Of course this doesn't mean there shouldn't be a 3e conversion of Mystara in the Vaults -- simply, don't look for an official (or even organized) one.
E.g., while the Mystara 3e effort may be slow or on halt, there are others who are working faster -- the monster conversion, for example.
I am in the process of convert my campaign to 3e. Right now I am in the middle of the monsters, but I will move to other things afterwards. Whatever is relevant as a whole to Mystara, I will post on the boards (and I may post some more campaign-specific things too).
Yes I am still currently running the Vaults, I didn't know that the state of this might have been in any doubt.
... yeha there's not really anything else that can be responded to briefly at the moment, but that might be for the best anyway. Let people continue to discuss things and also say what you want to happen as well, it really is up to you*. You might not even want the above statement to be true anyway ...
* although merely wanting a 3.5E conversion for Mystara or likewise isn't really enough, somebody will have to do it ;)
1. Developer community. We've got this.
2. Web space on which to publish results. We may have this, depending on whether Shawn is susceptible to big googly eyes or not. :P
3. Some method for translating developer scribble to Web-publishable format. This can be technical (Wiki) or human capital (hard-working HTMLscribe). We don't have this presently, but might be able to find something.
4. Some method for resolving "THIS is the right way to convert things!" conflicts. We don't have this, though suggestions are possible.
I would definitely help with conversion if an opportunity existed. Suggestions on tools to throw at the above issues?
I've designed and coded about a dozen web pages over the last decade or so. All in HTML, no WYSIWYG. I've never had the oportunity to learn css, xml, php, perl, or java... but they're all on my list, after I make my 5-levek skill rating at work...
I've been working on my own conversion, but I've hesitated to post it on my website, because I understand the need to keep things centralized, prevent ourselves from spreading too thin. (Think about the topic recently about why Shawn isn't allowed to have a forum on the vaults.) I have my site, nearly ready for publication on my hard drive, but haven't published it, not wanting to step on M3E's toes, which is why I asked about their status...
Anyway, after the fact, I realize that my post souned a bit whiney, it wasn't intended to be such. Shawn, If you would prefer to discuss the more detailed response to the questions in private, my email is [email]rogergirtman2@hotmail.com[/email]
Most of my work is less designed for "converting" as it is a "Player's Guide to" or "Campaign Setting"... I'm intending to turn the final product into both web format (for easy reference) and .pdf format for printout and in-play hardcopy use.
A solid Mystara 3E conversion needs to have the following things going for it:
1. Developer community. We've got this.
2. Web space on which to publish results. We may have this, depending on whether Shawn is susceptible to big googly eyes or not. :P
3. Some method for translating developer scribble to Web-publishable format. This can be technical (Wiki) or human capital (hard-working HTMLscribe). We don't have this presently, but might be able to find something.
4. Some method for resolving "THIS is the right way to convert things!" conflicts. We don't have this, though suggestions are possible.
I would definitely help with conversion if an opportunity existed. Suggestions on tools to throw at the above issues?
Some thoughts on this:
Shawn is doing an excellent job already, and he is uploading most of the completed material on here and on the MML.
Conversions don't have to be made at just one place, and they can also be collected in more than one place. I like having all Mystara related material collected at pandius.com, but it would also be useful to have a site fully devoted to 3E stuff. the M3E site is not ideal for this partly because Jenni is busy doing other things, and partially because of no 4.
My suggestion to how to resolved no. 4 is to allow multiple conversions to be posted. There is no "this is the official way of doing things". Let each fan make up his own mind as he reads the various articles. Does he like rakasta conversion a) or Rakasta conversion b)? Whats wrong with having choices? We could even have voting systems allowing readers to give points to the conversions they liked the best. I think the Dragonlance 3E site had something like that.
Håvard
A solid Mystara 3E conversion needs to have the following things going for it:
1. Developer community. We've got this.
Yep!
2. Web space on which to publish results. We may have this, depending on whether Shawn is susceptible to big googly eyes or not. :P
Hey Shawn,
3. Some method for translating developer scribble to Web-publishable format. This can be technical (Wiki) or human capital (hard-working HTMLscribe). We don't have this presently, but might be able to find something.
I can help on the creative/conversion side, but this all sounds gnomish to me!
4. Some method for resolving "THIS is the right way to convert things!" conflicts. We don't have this, though suggestions are possible.
Easy! Someone (I think it was Havard actually) once suggested that there is no reason to limit ourselves to just one supposedly 'correct' conversion, but rather offer whatever is put forth as options for the DM to choose from. This is already the foundation of the Vaults of Pandius anyway so why not continue in that vein.
Not only that, but since Mystara is a setting that evolved over time, our individual Mystaras our more likely to vary slightly compared to many other settings (IMHO). With some options to chose from, each DM can pick which one fits best with their interpretation and vision of Mystara.
Come to think of it, the Vaults already has a 3E section that perhaps could be reorganized into what we're talking about (If this is possible, Shawn, I'd be glad to help out in whatever way I can). But it's only one of our options of course.
[EDIT]It was Havard and he even beat me to say it while I was eating! :P [/EDIT]
4. Some method for resolving "THIS is the right way to convert things!" conflicts.
Havard said it best but I will chime in too. I do not believe there is a "right way". This is what killed off M3E. I read through the requirements for conversion. Wow!
Alternatives are a strength, not a weakness.
--Ray.
The concern I have, though, is what happens when mechanics info has to be assembled in a setting document and shared between players. Consider what would happen if the following GAZ5-related materials included multiple conversions:
- Elven character class, three different possibilities.
- Elven lorekeepers and clanmagic, two different possibilities.
- New elven spells and magical items, two different writeups.
Just with that alone, there's something like 12 different possible ways of writing up NPCs and other key setting material, just in the process of producing a conversion document for one Gazetteer. Many of which will be mutually incompatible with one another. Do we pick one as 'best' for the purposes of setting writeups? Try to include information for all twelve, and let DMs pick which to use? Or punt on the whole issue and require DMs to write up stats for the mechanics they're most happy with? That's the problem I forsee.
A "Mystara Campaign Setting" document or set of documents will be an incredibly useful and valuable idea, once it gets going. But like it or not, it's probably going to end up establishing a de facto "right way" to do conversions. Other methods and house rules will exist out there, but a strong and coherent campaign setting document will likely end up being the 800-pound gorilla, simply by virtue of putting so much consistent information in one place.
Are we willing to run with that?
A solid Mystara 3E conversion needs to have the following things going for it:
1. Developer community. We've got this.
2. Web space on which to publish results. We may have this, depending on whether Shawn is susceptible to big googly eyes or not. :P
3. Some method for translating developer scribble to Web-publishable format. This can be technical (Wiki) or human capital (hard-working HTMLscribe). We don't have this presently, but might be able to find something.
4. Some method for resolving "THIS is the right way to convert things!" conflicts. We don't have this, though suggestions are possible.
I would definitely help with conversion if an opportunity existed. Suggestions on tools to throw at the above issues?
getting the easy ones out of the way first. Of course webspace via the Vaults is definitely an option. No problems there, you don't even need googly eyes for that one.
We don't have a stable Mystara-Wiki that I know of out there, but a HTMLscribe shouldn't be too hard to come by surely.
One could suggest that the size of the first creates the problem that we have in the fourth. With less developers there'll simply be less options, any system isn't going to please everyone and never will, and it probably wouldn't anyway. People are always going to change stuff to their own taste or whatever no matter how long and hard it's worked on.
A "Mystara Campaign Setting" document or set of documents will be an incredibly useful and valuable idea, once it gets going. But like it or not, it's probably going to end up establishing a de facto "right way" to do conversions. Other methods and house rules will exist out there, but a strong and coherent campaign setting document will likely end up being the 800-pound gorilla, simply by virtue of putting so much consistent information in one place.
and it'll probably never get completed either.
I'm actually quite surprised that the vaults aren't run as a wiki. That would make organising the data much simpler, and spread the workload amongst any number of people.
well I know I don't know how to set one up, and even if I did a Wiki would be a totally different thing to what the Vaults are. Would people want that instead of the Vaults? As well as the Vaults??
Some thoughts on this:
Shawn is doing an excellent job already, and he is uploading most of the completed material on here and on the MML.
most?
What is M3E's relation to the Vault's and it's officialness? I know Jim Butler and Bruce Heard both made overt declarations that they wanted Mystara to be converted, and thus gave WotC's tacit approval. Is M3E, have the same officialness that the Vaults have, being basically an extension of the Vaults? Same question for the Almanacs...
the M3E project isn't on the Vaults so it doesn't have any relation to it or it's officialness. The Almanacs are on the Vaults.
well I know I don't know how to set one up, and even if I did a Wiki would be a totally different thing to what the Vaults are. Would people want that instead of the Vaults? As well as the Vaults??
Setting up a wiki is ludicrously easy if the server can run the appropriate software. Currently, I have a secure/hidden wiki online (the software used is dokuwiki, and its mainly for my work stuff, as I work at many different sites), and another test server on my home machine (mediawiki software, its a Mystara testbed wiki). Dokuwiki requires the server to run php scripts. mediawiki requires that, plus SQL. Both are quite simple to set up in a basic configuration, mediawiki probably more so than dokuwiki.
The vaults are good, but I definitely see potential for a wiki to replace them, as it allows for much more cross-linking to related articles, and spreads the workload - a site that big must take a lot of time to keep updated.
most?
Allright, all of them?
Håvard
A "Mystara Campaign Setting" document or set of documents will be an incredibly useful and valuable idea, once it gets going. But like it or not, it's probably going to end up establishing a de facto "right way" to do conversions. Other methods and house rules will exist out there, but a strong and coherent campaign setting document will likely end up being the 800-pound gorilla, simply by virtue of putting so much consistent information in one place.
Are we willing to run with that?
There has to be, at minimum, two conversions or "ways" of doing it. One way isn't going to cut it, because converting Mystara to 3E/3.5E can mean different things to different people.
It could mean
1) Convert Mystara to 3E conventions
or
2) Convert 3E to work with Mystara conventions
Can dwarves be wizards? Yes under 1), no under 2). Is the game going to match much more closely to the background of the older D&D supplements? No under 1), yes under 2).
Probably more people who like 3E would prefer 1), but I personally would only be willing to try 2).
1) Convert Mystara to 3E conventions
or
2) Convert 3E to work with Mystara conventions
I think this is why we have no need for anything reeking of officialness in our community. Are the Mystaran Almanacs official? Is the rest of the stuff on pandius official?
I think the best thing we can do is to offer as many options to each GM as possible and let them decide what they want. If someone does decide to make a biog document of 3E conversions, one way or the other they should call it something like "Håvard's 3E conversion to Mystara" or "Dave's Guide to 3E Mystara" and make it clear that this is just an option not something anyone assumes that you are expected to use.
As a comment to the question of 3E vs Mystara conventions, I also think there is a question of whether to use the rules to enforce the 'Mystara feel' or whether that can be solved in other ways thanm through the actual rules system.
While a complete revised D20 Mystara RPG would be interesting, I think one advantage for those willing to do a more 3E adaptive approach is that there is much less work involved. I'd recommend conversions that are considerate to say various views though, say for instance including comments on how "Dwarven wizards are hitherto unknown on Mystara and some DM's might not wish to allow such PCs" or similar statements rather than making absolutes.
Håvard
well I know I don't know how to set one up, and even if I did a Wiki would be a totally different thing to what the Vaults are. Would people want that instead of the Vaults? As well as the Vaults??
Not instead of the Vaults. Wiki are technically nice pieces of software, and have advantages in cooperative editing and crossreferencing, but plain HTML has its advantages as well -- for one, it only uses plain text, while wiki (to my knowledge) require dbs to work (making it more difficult to create a mirror, for example).
And since there is really little cooperative work in most Vaults articles (they are all basically different versions of the same things), I feel that a Wiki could be useful, but only/mostly for reference works, reviews and the like.
Not instead of the Vaults. Wiki are technically nice pieces of software, and have advantages in cooperative editing and crossreferencing, but plain HTML has its advantages as well -- for one, it only uses plain text, while wiki (to my knowledge) require dbs to work (making it more difficult to create a mirror, for example).
And since there is really little cooperative work in most Vaults articles (they are all basically different versions of the same things), I feel that a Wiki could be useful, but only/mostly for reference works, reviews and the like.
Not true. Not all wikis require a database. My current favourite is dokuwiki. It stores all data pages as plain text files.
While I can see why there is an interest in a single 3e mystara project, something official and broadly compatible, I wouldn't relish the job of doing it. The diversity of material on VoP is such that it is clear to me that we've all taken Mystara along slightly different lines, and that's good, it means that when I read someone elses ideas I'm seeing something different to what I would come up with myself, and I can use, modify or ignore those ideas as I see fit. A consolidated Mystara 3e project always looked to me like herding cats.
Not true. Not all wikis require a database. My current favourite is dokuwiki. It stores all data pages as plain text files.
Point taken. I've tried converting my current snapshot of the Vaults (I keep an almost-up-to-date copy on my HD, just in case), using an html to wiki converter and the following bash script:
Point taken. I've tried converting my current snapshot of the Vaults (I keep an almost-up-to-date copy on my HD, just in case), using an html to wiki converter and the following bash script:
Unfortunately I don't have time to look into this at the moment. What with moving half way around the world again and looking for an apartment etc etc. And I've yet to start on the next update and stuff, but looking into whether I can even have a Wiki on Pandius is on the list of things to do, fear not.
Anyway, as I was pointing out in my previous posts, there both technical issues (specifically html2wiki conversion) and general issues (e.g., the actual need for cooperative editing, the scope/application of a possible Wiki on Pandius) that need to be dealt with first.
Anyway, as I was pointing out in my previous posts, there both technical issues (specifically html2wiki conversion) and general issues (e.g., the actual need for cooperative editing, the scope/application of a possible Wiki on Pandius) that need to be dealt with first.
well I'm still agreed that the general issues have yet to be considered fully.