Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Ed Greenwood writing Greyhawk? You jest? I hope...
Since there are no alternate prime material planes in my Oerthly cosmology, I always disliked the "wizards of the worlds" club idea that Ed used, but now and then Mordenkainen would make a comment or two that got the creative gears going for a plot idea in my GH game, and there was even that ditzy ice cream loving apprentice chick that tagged along with Mordy in a couple of the installments. I forget her name at the moment, but for a while, she was a fairly prominent NPC in my game while the PCs where in greyhawk city.
Maybe they should alternate between three authors: Ed Greenwood, Jamie Chamber, and (dare I say it?) Erik Mona.
Unless they're replacing some spellcaster iconic from Dragonlance with some spellcaster iconic from Eberron.
Anyway, just wondering if there was a combined list?
242 Jest the Wizards Three
246 The Wizards Three
These are the three episodes that feature Mordenkainen's understudy, Rautheene. (IMO a decidedly Faerunian name) They exchange ice cream, pizza, slide on bannisters and other playfulness. Dalamar seems 'lost' on Krynn all this time IIRC.
My theories on how a new Wizards Three article will go:
Like mentioned by Ranger REG, given that this will be the first installment under WotC, I wouldn't bet against there being an Eberronian wizard joining them. It's just too good an opportunity. The only thing I'm not sure of is if Eberron is accesible, I know nothing of their cosmology. At any rate the casualty: Rautheene of course. Two GH wizards is too much especially in today's environment. I'd say Mordenkainen is safe in that he and El are too equal to write off. If Ed does his homework, Mordy should be bald, maybe even more shady of demeanor. I don't expect any named spells of any sort. I don't expect Mordenkainen to talk about Manzorian or Balakarde. ;) I fully expect it to be set in the same location the others were at (certainly not the Obsidian Citadel) and from the Ed POV. That's about allright now. I liked this series and I can't wait to see what develops.
by the by, chatdemon, besides yourself, has anyone ever written or discussed Rautheene around here? How powerful was she? Where is she from? Etc.
I'd say Mordenkainen is safe in that he and El are too equal to write off. If Ed does his homework, Mordy should be bald, maybe even more shady of demeanor. I don't expect any named spells of any sort. I don't expect Mordenkainen to talk about Manzorian or Balakarde. ;) I fully expect it to be set in the same location the others were at (certainly not the Obsidian Citadel) and from the Ed POV. That's about allright now. I liked this series and I can't wait to see what develops.
Mordy bald? I wouldn't be surprised if El offered Mordy some secret to stay young as El is. While Mord, El, and Dalamar are usually the regulars, oftentimes they brought in replacements, which is refreshing to hear from other spellcasters.
Would it be cynically rude of me to gladly mention that so far no one from Athas or Mystara have shown up at these secret meetings? Terribly rude?
Would it be cynically rude of me to gladly mention that so far no one from Athas or Mystara have shown up at these secret meetings? Terribly rude?
That's why I wondered about cosmologies concerning Eb. Athas was always cut off from other primes wasn't it? Does WotC really want Eberron dare I say, tainted by FR or GH?
As things stand, only GH still uses the "standard" cosmology. So, in theory, no GH-FR-DL(-EB) meeting should be possible (unless you account for alternate dimensions..)
That's why I wondered about cosmologies concerning Eb. Athas was always cut off from other primes wasn't it? Does WotC really want Eberron dare I say, tainted by FR or GH?
Well, it would help to promote their latest campaign setting to those fans.
Anyhoo, it would be nice if the Wizards share more than just spells and magic, like news.
As things stand, only GH still uses the "standard" cosmology. So, in theory, no GH-FR-DL(-EB) meeting should be possible (unless you account for alternate dimensions..)
It only takes a few hours stroll through the Plane of Shadow to get from one cosmology to another. If you have a shadowgate, you can get across instantly. The "seperate cosmologies" thing really has very little practical effect.
But how is the different cosmologies have any effect from having to travel between two different worlds?
Man, those stories were so silly.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
There is nothing wrong with them being silly, however they were rather poorly written too. I never understood their popularity.
There is nothing wrong with them being silly, however they were rather poorly written too. I never understood their popularity.
If that's your only exploration of Ed Greenwood's fiction, count yourself lucky.
I've sampled a few of his novels, like Spellfire, and they border on being literally unreadable.
Which is odd because his game writing is so much better. There's been some very bad Forgotten Realms sourcebooks from some writers, for example, but his have always been consistantly good.
Two different talents, I guess.
Anyhoo I like Greenwood in small doses, I could never keep up with his pace however. Maybe thats why his Dragon writing is more memorable to me than his setting or novel work.
The same could be said about Gygax's novels versus his setting writing.
I wouldn't go quite that far. The Gord books were mediocre fantasy. Reading Spellfire was the equivilent of hammering railroad spikes into my unmentionables. ;)
It's a talent thing. It's the same reason why actors become directors/screenwriters all the time.
Screenwriters. What a bunch of dweebs! ;)
I wouldn't go quite that far. The Gord books were mediocre fantasy. Reading Spellfire was the equivilent of hammering railroad spikes into my unmentionables. ;)
I've never read any of the Gords books and, based in what is said about them, I doubt I will ever try. However, I've read Ed Greenwood's Spellfire. Unquestionably, it is the worst book I ever read. It is quite an achievement, as being both a fast and compulsive reader of SF and fantasy while a teen, I already read countless poorly written books.
However, I've read Ed Greenwood's Spellfire. Unquestionably, it is the worst book I ever read. It is quite an achievement, as being both a fast and compulsive reader of SF and fantasy while a teen, I already read countless poorly written books.
what was wrong with spellfire if I may ask?
I ask because having read spellfire, I did not find it to be an incredibly poor book (although it DID seem rather uninspired and predictable, though not nearly so as other books I have read before and since, and in Greenwood's defense his writing continued to "impove" as TSR's editors got less heavy handed, although it has never achieved a level which I would call "good").
on this thread it is only expected to see Greenwood sucks, Gygax is da bomb... because of the missguided Forget Realms vs. Greyhawk sentiment that people sometimes percieve... but having not read the gord books, and not planing on it you are obviously not some sort of pathetic sycophant attacking greenwood in some childish attempt to bring glory to Gygax... So I must assume that your strong words on the subject have something to do with an intense literary disagreement with Spellfire in some way... however with-out your qualifying your statement... telling us why you think Spellfire is absolutely the worst book ever written... it comes across as a petty attack on the work a person who is not around to defend themselves, which while the anonymity of the internet has made even easier then it previously was, is still not cool... guessing that you didn't mean to come off that way, I am interested in what shaped your opinion of Spellfire thusly?
I am not sure I can do a fair review of a book I read about twenty years ago. Not only my memory is not perfect but also I am different man now. Still, I stand with my opinion. I recall it was a hard to finish book as the text itself was poorly written, characters were poorly developed and, in many occasions, quite irritating. Also, contrary to your statement, I never said Spellfire is the worst book ever written, only the worst book I ever read. To be fair, I've read a few old TSR books and most of them were pretty bad too.
You say Greenwood's writing improved with time. I don't doubt it but after Spellfire I was not very excited in following his writer career.
Regarding anonymity, you're mistaken. All my posts are signed and I can be easily reached by Mr. Greenwood or anybody else interested in my opinion.
I am sorry I can't provide a much more detailed discussing over Spellfire, but, considering that you haven't elaborated on what you actually liked in it, I guess we are even.
telling us why you think Spellfire is absolutely the worst book ever written...
I'm sure it's not. The odds of that being true are not good at all.
It is, however, one of the worst novels I've ever personally read.
Wizards Three was actually pretty good, possibly because it was easily disregarded fluff for new spells.
Oggie
It only takes a few hours stroll through the Plane of Shadow to get from one cosmology to another. If you have a shadowgate, you can get across instantly. The "seperate cosmologies" thing really has very little practical effect.
Correct.. IF we can agree that the Shadow Plane really is the same in all the diverse cosmologies (which isn't proven.. yet)
Correct.. IF we can agree that the Shadow Plane really is the same in all the diverse cosmologies (which isn't proven.. yet)
Unless you mean there is more than one Shadow Plane much like there is multiple layers of the Abyss, I think it can be justified like this:
If any given outer or inner plane is considered infinite in size then there should also be an infinite number of ways to connect to the other infinite planes. The arrangements of these cosmologies however can only be apparent from the point of view of a finite plane (ie the Prime Material Plane).
We know Lolth is active on both Oerth and Faerun, but is she the same Lolth?
I am sorry I can't provide a much more detailed discussing over Spellfire, but, considering that you haven't elaborated on what you actually liked in it, I guess we are even.
uhm in point of fact I didn't like spellfire, and I DID elaborate the reasons why I didn't.
. . . on this thread it is only expected to see Greenwood sucks, Gygax is da bomb... because of the missguided Forget Realms vs. Greyhawk sentiment that people sometimes percieve...
As novelists or fiction writers, IMO, both Greenwood and Gygax blow chunks. Ed's descriptions, to me, border on lurid treacle. Gary's dialog is laughably bad (Tharizdun's speechifying anyone?).
And for the 30th Anniversary of Dragon we get Ed on Elminster and Mordy (Wizards Three) and Gary with Gord. I'd like to say something nice. About the thought that went into having these features in the 30th Anniversary. I really would. Unfortunately, my only option, according to the old saying, is to say nothing more at all.
Rant averted.
:rolleye2:We know Lolth is active on both Oerth and Faerun, but is she the same Lolth?
At the risk of completely derailing the thread from its original topic, I wanted to chime in on this. There's a 3E Forgotten Realms supplement (I don't own it, I've only browsed through it at the bookstore, so I don't remember much about it - "Faiths and" something, I think - co-written by Erik Mona) that touches on this. I may not be remembering it correctly, but it seems to me it was almost something like Neil Gaiman's "American Gods," that the demihuman races brought their gods with them when they settled in the Realms, and that they're actually separate entities. That may have been a by-product of giving the Realms its own cosmology, and maybe in earlier editions, they were in fact the same deity, I don't know.
Hmm. I wonder why GV Dammerung isn't doing the writing?
Do I need to produce, direct or act in movies or on television to note that a particular movie, show or episode sucks or that a particular "star" can't act? And books are different how?
Alternatively, do I need to produce, direct or act in movies or on television to note that a particular movie, show or episode is great or that a particular "star" is a terrific actor? And books are different how?
Rhetotical questions but I believe they demonstrate the lack of merit in the unstated premise from which you attempt to advance your point.
If you enjoy Greenwood or EGGs writing, more power to you. I don't and more power to me too. At least I can articulate why I hold my opinion, whether you agree with it or not.
Time to speculate!
--Erik
At least I can articulate why I hold my opinion, whether you agree with it or not.
Yeah, at least you can articulate "chunks." ;)
My speculation is that GVD is going to absolutely hate Dragon #344, especially the Wizards Three article, and that he will post a scathing review within a week of getting the issue.
--Erik
While I hate to disappoint, I have all but given up any attempt to "lead the band" when it comes to the content of Dragon and Dungeon. I will chime in if someone else wants to strike up the music but I'm not looking to wield the baton in the first instance. While we may share some sympathies, it is apparent that your tastes and mine are at some variance in any number of instances. It is your job to oversee putting together Dragon and Dungeon, the composer if you will, and not mine. Given our individual sensibilities, I see no reason to inflict myself upon you, which will just irritate us both, without some serious cause.
Candidly, I cannot fathom why anyone, let alone a self-professed Greyhawker, would welcome the return of The Wizard's Three which always had the twin joys of being first a mishmash of settings articulated, in the second instance, by treacly Ed Greenwood. The Gord material is far more a matter of taste, being at least written by the Father of Greyhawk, however well.
I'll certainly give the anniversary issue a thorough once over and, providing it has content that is worthwhile, not considering Ed and EGG, I'll buy it. Otherwise, I'll cast my vote with my wallet and be content.
I've been trying to get Gygax to write something Greyhawk-related for five years. When it looked like that might actually happen, I steered the story toward the anniversary issue, since Gord's last appearance in the magazine was a milestone in its long and rich history (issue #100).
I really don't think you'll like the Wizards Three article, but a lot of people will get a kick out of it, and it hearkens back to a time when the magazine didn't take itself so seriously. I'm not really of that editorial school, but in this case I made an exception since the goofball stuff is a real part of the magazine's history.
--Erik
As you cannot please everyone, I have no problem with having a magazine with a Wizards Three article and a Gord short story, even while I can't actually believe that those will be any good. But the Princess Ark piece will make me buy my first Dragon in years. After reading most of the CD, I found it to be the best series ever. So, at least that should be something to everyone.
Erik,
As you cannot please everyone, I have no problem with having a magazine with a Wizards Three article and a Gord short story, even while I can't actually believe that those will be any good. But the Princess Ark piece will make me buy my first Dragon in years. After reading most of the CD, I found it to be the best series ever. So, at least that should be something to everyone.
I dunno. Do we really need a Thyatis wizard from Mystara crashing into the Wizards Three dinner party to tell us what's up with the Savage Coast?
. . . I've been trying to get Gygax to write something Greyhawk-related for five years. When it looked like that might actually happen, I steered the story toward the anniversary issue, since Gord's last appearance in the magazine was a milestone in its long and rich history (issue #100). . . .
Well, in such case, I would look to have EGG use the Gord story to do more than provide just another "adventure" story. I'd look to have EGG have the Gord story somehow (1) shed more light on the West - ala Five Dragon Bowl; or (2) revisit the "destruction" of Oerth by Tharizdun - dealing with the New Infinities titles in a stage whisper, not directly; or (3) the like. You know, something actually relevant to GH that EGG can speak to better than others. But not just "anything Gord." But that's just me. Go figure.
--Erik
Let the lambasting begin.
however despite his flaws, I believe that Gygax created a much better setting the did Greenwood
Let the lambasting begin.
Actually I got a similar impression. I read some of that thread quite a long time ago and the conclusion that I came to is that Gary treats Greyhawk as if it had died right around the time he was ousted from TSR.
Which is to be expected. I imagine it is somewhat similar to disowning a child...way down deep inside you probably still love them but you really don't recognize what they've become as "your baby" anymore. It has simply become something he no longer recognizes as his.
I really don't blame him for that attitude at all. But if he were ever to expand on Greyhawk in any substantative way I would take it with a large grain of salt. The setting has simply become so much larger than anyone person's idea of it. Which is a good thing, IMHO.
If you do ask him a WoG question, its useful to remember that
1) the published game world and his actual campaign are not the same, deliberately so.
2) Lots of GH material, even during his tenure, was not produced by him. The artifacts in the DMG weren't from his campaign in all or nearly all cases, for instance. Anything after he left, he had nothing to do with at all and has only limited interest/familiarity with.
3) He's a fly by the seat of his pants sort of DM and his idea of a a detailed timeline is something like "about 500 years ago".
4) He thinks that DMs should want to fill in all these gray areas themselves, because its their campaign.
These four attributes tend to make him a singularly bad source for most of the kinds of GH questions that are in circulation these days.
P.S. Not all "Realmers" are dweebs. ;)
my bigest question... Does Mordenkainen have hair in the article?
...indeed!
why are you expecting to get lambasted... EGG can be a jerk, and most people who read anything that he posts on the various message boards he visits recognize that (slavering fan-boys aside)...
I can be a jerk myself. So can you. I think any of us can under the right circumstances. It's part of being a person. I think it would be silly to deny that, even if you are a fan of the man.
As far as those circumstances go, I think Lassiviren has it right. Greyhawk is probably a specific sore spot for Mr. Gygax. He and his gaming group created something, the Greyhawk campaign, and the publishing rights to it were later taken away from him against his will. A lot of other stuff was then released under the Greyhawk name that he had no control over. Some of that stuff was good and some was bad but none of it had to answer to his vision of his own creation.
That would make me pretty bitter, too, on that particular topic.
For the record, Gary's always been nice to me in online exchanges, but I tend to limit my questions to him to ones about his recent work instead of ones about past work that I already can infer that he probably doesn't want to discuss anymore.
It helps, of course, that his latest book (Castle Zagyg I) was really damn rad.
I think it would be silly to deny that, even if you are a fan of the man.
thre is a differnece between being a fan of the man and being a slavering fan-boy... I have seen people who quite literaly think that Gygax can say nothing wrong, and what ever he says is the end all and be-all of EVERYTHING. Those are the people I am refering to as not recognizing that he can be a jerk...
and yes I am very aware that I can be a jerk... infact I can be a jerk fairly often it doesn;t even require the "right circumstances". :P
P.S. Not all "Realmers" are dweebs. ;)
Agreed, not all of them (which is what I said) but a fair number of them are. This helps me to sleep at night, knowing (or simply believing) that I am less dweebish than they are.
For the record I obviously do love GH and I'm more interested in the Realms from a wannabe cartographer's perspective. I've always loved looking at maps and wondering at the places labled therein and whatnot. I just figured I'd get jumped by some of those same fanboys was all. No biggie.
Agreed, not all of them (which is what I said) but a fair number of them are. This helps me to sleep at night, knowing (or simply believing) that I am less dweebish than they are.
For the record I obviously do love GH and I'm more interested in the Realms from a wannabe cartographer's perspective. I've always loved looking at maps and wondering at the places labled therein and whatnot. I just figured I'd get jumped by some of those same fanboys was all. No biggie.
Well, with all due respect, not even the Greyhawk fan community is immune of dweebs. ;)
And no disrespect to Gygax, but I wish he'd get over it, now that the setting is no longer under the company he hated and left. He ain't getting any younger (and so am I), so he should do right by getting petitioning to revive the setting for 3e. This should be his legacy.