I have finally gotten round to updating my map, which I present below. It replaces the Darokin map that I made last year.
It occurs to me that it might not be too hard for us to think up some names for each of the provinces on the map. So if anyone wants to have a go, please be my guest. :D
Does anyone know of a good (free) FTP client? I have always used WS FTP, an ancient old version, but I just can't get it to work today at all.
Edit: Never mind, I got Smart FTP and the image should now be updated.
It occurs to me that it might not be too hard for us to think up some names for each of the provinces on the map. So if anyone wants to have a go, please be my guest. :D
Of course, the provinces including large cities may be named by the city itself.
The provinces of central Darokin could be named Ansimont (cap. Ansimont) and Eastwind (cap. Wrasseldown).
The text on the map says the borders come from GAZ10 Orcs of thar. Surely that's a mistake?
*Quickly changes it and uploads a new version*
Mistake? What mistake?
;) Seriously, thanks for catching that.
Of course, the provinces including large cities may be named by the city itself.
The provinces of central Darokin could be named Ansimont (cap. Ansimont) and Eastwind (cap. Wrasseldown).
I was thinking along similar lines, although it would be nice to have other relevant names for some of them.
Is there any way to tie in the provinces to the Houses, or would that be a rather undesirable thing to do?
Regarding the borderlands, I intend to put (Borderland) underneath the names on the map. They tend to be quite big, so we only need a few names for them.
I was thinking along similar lines, although it would be nice to have other relevant names for some of them.
Is there any way to tie in the provinces to the Houses, or would that be a rather undesirable thing to do?
I don't think it's a good idea. While some areas are clearly under the control of specific houses, they're still not domains owned by the Houses themselves.
Regarding the borderlands, I intend to put (Borderland) underneath the names on the map. They tend to be quite big, so we only need a few names for them.
IIRC, bordeland areas are supposed to be split into smaller dominions, rather than being true administrative regions.
I don't think it's a good idea. While some areas are clearly under the control of specific houses, they're still not domains owned by the Houses themselves.
Okay, that was the main problem I was thinking about too. It would make it look like there are connections which aren't really there.
IIRC, bordeland areas are supposed to be split into smaller dominions, rather than being true administrative regions.
The borderlands in fact are split into smaller dominions on the map. Some of them are still very large, but if you read the description on pages 10 and 11 of GAZ11, that's as it should be.
Another interesting point from those pages is that the heartlands are supposed to have 37 different regions. I wonder if they are split up into that many on the map... *Goes off to count*
hereditary position. magistrates are in a feudal vassal relationship to the
inner council. Magistrates have a LOT of freedom politically.
Local government in the borderlands areas is entirely at the whim of
the magistrate, limited only by the threat of confiscation of the title by
the inner council. Presumably, the magistrate has the right to
appoint subordinate officials in a feudal-like structure.
Heartlands areas are ultimately controlled by a councillor. There are
37 dominions (cue controversy over the map disagreeing with this
number). Elections are held every 8 years, with the candidate list drawn up
by the incumbent - gerrymandering at its finest. These councillors elect 6
of their number to be the inner council, with the remaining 31
councillors forming the outer council.
Heartlands towns are divided into 6 equal parts for administration and
local government. Each part elects a town coucillor for a 6 year term, and
the town as a whole elects a mayor.
The chancellor is an elected position, and elections are held when
the incumbent dies, resigns, or is impeached. The candidate list is drawn
up by the inner council, and usually numbers up to a half dozen people or
so, and often includes members of that same inner council.
city - population, major government influences
Akesoli - 17000, Umbarth House
Akorros - 23000, Toney House (9th rank), thieves' guild
Athenos - 15000, Linton
Corunglain - 31000, Corun
Darokin - 54000, ???
Selenica - 39000, al-Azrad (7th rank), Hallonica (3rd)
I have uploaded a labelled version (numbers only) of the Darokin map,
to facilitate assigning names to the various regions. All regions are
numbered sequientially, with borderlands regions noted with a small B after
the number.
Doing so let me notice another error on the map; regions 12 and 13
(just south of Corunglain) lost their border line. Also, the gazetteer
suggests that regions 40b and 41b are separate. Difficult to say which
ruling would be canonical on that second one though, as the 24 mile
map disagrees sharply with the 8 mile map in that corner of Darokin.
1b - Atruaghin Borderlands (and Tenobar heartland region if you separate that out to make heartland council seat no. 37)
2 - Akesoli
3b - Glantri Borderlands
4b - ?
5 - ?
6 - Bronsdale
7 - Akorros
8 - Crowlerd
9 - ?
10 - ?
11 - Streel Valley
12 - Rennydale
13 - ?
14 - Corun's Glen
15 - South Nell
16 - ?
17 - Wrasseldown
18 - Darokin
19 - Elstrich
20 - Hendry
21 - ?
22 - Malpheggi
23 - ?
24 - Athenos
25 - ?
26 - Hinmeet
27b - Farshire (see my post downthread)
28 - Greyhare
29 - ?
30b - Dream Borderlands
31 - Dolos
32b - Traldar Borderlands (the name never got updated when Stephan took over)
33 - ?
34 - Cruth
35 - Nemiston
36 - Armstead (if border is moved south to include the village)
37 - Reedle
38 - Selenica
39b - Alfheim Borderlands
40b - ?
41b - ?
42 - Hobart
43 - East Dwarfgate
44 - West Dwarfgate
45 - North Nell
45 regions total, including 9 borderlands regions and 36 heartlands regions.
Issues:
Why is Tenobar, a major town and port, part of a borderlands
region? Presumably these regions were drawn up after Ardelphia got
sacked, as that too is in a borderlands region.
Most of the borderlands regions are extremely long and thin, unlike the
council regions. It would seem reasonable to suppose that borders
between magistrate regions have not been shown. Unfortunateley, that
does not explain the small magistrate region shown north of Lake
Amsorak (region 4b). I favour the idea that each borderlands
magistrate controls a single 24 mile hex of land, or 3 at most in
particularly poor regions.
The gazetteer says there are 37 heartlands regions, not 36 as drawn on
the map. And reading the entry on Darokin City hints at (though does
not explicitly deny the possibility of) the metropole does not count as
a separate region, spoiling one theory.
The gazetteer notes that borderlands magistrates can impose taxes more
or less on a whim, including road tolls, yet the major roads (including
the Darokin-Selenica route) pass through extended portions of
borderlands. Presumably the local magistrates are under standing orders not
to impose taxes that may interfere with traffic and trade on that road.
In GAZ4 or GAZ9 you will have a set of counters with the names of many warships of various Known World nations in peacetime conditions.
For Darokin we have:
Markuri
Akorros
Akesoli
Corunglain
Athenos
Illefarn
Selenica
Alfheim
Malpheggi
Darokin
Many of them seem to be just city names but others, such as Malpheggi and Alfheim surely are not (why naming a ship with a foreign country name such as "Alfheim"?). Moreover, I don't remember Darokinian cities or towns named "Illefarn" or "Markuri".
It seems to me a bit strange that Darokinian ships took the names or villages.
What about if the list above reflects some Darokin provinces' names?
I've just read Rihalto's post.
You may have "Malpheggi" for region 22 and "Alfheim" for region 39b, for exampel.
Heartlands areas are ultimately controlled by a councillor. There are
37 dominions (cue controversy over the map disagreeing with this
number). Elections are held every 8 years, with the candidate list drawn up
by the incumbent - gerrymandering at its finest. These councillors elect 6
of their number to be the inner council, with the remaining 31
councillors forming the outer council.
It seems to me that the text is more important than the map when it comes to this number, so it should be a relatively simple matter to promote the missing region from an existing area labelled borderlands.
I have uploaded a labelled version (numbers only) of the Darokin map,
to facilitate assigning names to the various regions. All regions are
numbered sequientially, with borderlands regions noted with a small B after
the number.
Thanks! I was considering doing this, but I didn't want to over-write the updated map.
Doing so let me notice another error on the map; regions 12 and 13
(just south of Corunglain) lost their border line. Also, the gazetteer
suggests that regions 40b and 41b are separate. Difficult to say which
ruling would be canonical on that second one though, as the 24 mile
map disagrees sharply with the 8 mile map in that corner of Darokin.
Thanks for finding that error too. :embarrass
Regarding 40b and 41b, I will make them separate regions. You are entirely correct about the reason for them being joined.
Issues:
Why is Tenobar, a major town and port, part of a borderlands
region? Presumably these regions were drawn up after Ardelphia got
sacked, as that too is in a borderlands region.
This one could have gone either way - Port Tenobar was on the border of three 24 mi per hex hexes. I chose to put it in with the surrounding countryside rather than the swamps, which brings up another issue:
Why is the Malpheggi Swamp part of the heartlands? GAZ11 refers to it as a wild region full of pirates, lizards, crocodiles, etc. Areas 22 and 24 especially are almost all swamp, and should definitely be classed borderlands. But Athenos falls into area 24...
One solution would be to attach Athenos to area 25, and make Port Tenobar and Fort Nar a new, small heartland province (1a). This would kinda make sense, because having a town in a borderland is quite strange.
While we're thinking of solutions for this, we should definitely consider that the 24 mile per hex dominion border map and the 8 mile per hex poster map are almost completely unrelated. Whoever did the dominion map doesn't seem to have looked at the poster map (or they made it before the poster map), because the dominions don't really have much logic to them.
Most of the borderlands regions are extremely long and thin, unlike the
council regions. It would seem reasonable to suppose that borders
between magistrate regions have not been shown. Unfortunateley, that
does not explain the small magistrate region shown north of Lake
Amsorak (region 4b). I favour the idea that each borderlands
magistrate controls a single 24 mile hex of land, or 3 at most in
particularly poor regions.
I'd rather just keep the borderlands as they are. It makes sense in a whimsical sort of way that some borderland regions would be tiny while others would be huge. Also, it would be much easier for magistrates to enforce extra taxes and such in small dominions, so perhaps there is that element to the sizes too.
In any case, the larger areas are probably divided up internally by their ruling magistrate, and likely have delegated sub-rulers.
The gazetteer says there are 37 heartlands regions, not 36 as drawn on
the map. And reading the entry on Darokin City hints at (though does
not explicitly deny the possibility of) the metropole does not count as
a separate region, spoiling one theory.
We can probably work around this while making the dominions a little more logical.
Another issue: why on earth are the Orclands considered heartland territories?!? Bizarre. In reality they are more wilderness than borderland, and it also seems likely that their magistrate is a name-only position. We should definitely re-label these as borderland territories. East Orcland and West Orcland might make good titles, too.
The gazetteer notes that borderlands magistrates can impose taxes more or less on a whim, including road tolls, yet the major roads (including the Darokin-Selenica route) pass through extended portions of borderlands. Presumably the local magistrates are under standing orders not to impose taxes that may interfere with traffic and trade on that road.
This is a little strange, indeed. You might expect it to be the case on borders, though. Note that it would be possible to extend the borders of the neighbouring dominions slightly to encompass more of the road, without disagreeing with the 24 mile per hex map. (In other words, as long as the majority of the hexes making up the 24 mile hex are borderland, the maps remain compatible.)
Many of them seem to be just city names but others, such as Malpheggi and Alfheim surely are not (why naming a ship with a foreign country name such as "Alfheim"?). Moreover, I don't remember Darokinian cities or towns named "Illefarn" or "Markuri".
It seems to me a bit strange that Darokinian ships took the names or villages.
What about if the list above reflects some Darokin provinces' names?
I've just read Rihalto's post.
You may have "Malpheggi" for region 22 and "Alfheim" for region 39b, for exampel.
This seems like a good idea, although I'm not so sure about using other countries' names. I suppose we could call it the "Alfheim Borderlands", though.
Certainly using the other names would make a good deal of sense.
For Malpheggi, Upper and Lower Malpheggi would work, allowing us to use it for two regions.
I'd place the islands in Lake Amsorak as part of area 5.
The border of area 36 should be moved south a little, to include the village of Armstead, incidentally allowing the village name to be used for the region name too.
re: Dwarfgate and Malpheggi: These are officially classed as heartlands, not borderlands. The gazetteer notes that militarily significant areas are taken over by the central government in the interests of national security. I see no reason top demote them to borderlands. As heartlands, their councillors are elected, which may seem odd on the face of a presumably low local population. But given the way election candidates are chosen, they seem like perfect examples of "rotten boroughs".
re: Areas 40b and 41b: I think the best way to separate these would be to give control of the road east and its valley to Selenica.
Putting Tenobar in area 24 and Athenos into 25 would work, but it would definitely make it into a map that disagrees fundamentally with the 24 mile map in the gazetteer. It also doesn't solve the issue of the missing 37th heartland region.
re: Dwarfgate and Malpheggi: These are officially classed as heartlands, not borderlands. The gazetteer notes that militarily significant areas are taken over by the central government in the interests of national security. I see no reason top demote them to borderlands. As heartlands, their councillors are elected, which may seem odd on the face of a presumably low local population. But given the way election candidates are chosen, they seem like perfect examples of "rotten boroughs".
Indeed. It may be the only reason why Dwarfgate is ever claimed by Darokin, since it has almost no human population, is hardly strategic for Darokin's defense (it's full of orcs!) and is remarkably far from Darokin itself and its trade routes (being mostly shielded by Alfheim).
I think, for the missing 37th council seat, the best solution would be to promote the southern portion of area 1b (draw a line extending north west continuing on from the northen border of area 24). Call that council seat Tenobar, after the town within it. According to the gazetter, Tenobar is definitely in the borderlands area though. This needs retro-changing.
Yep, that certainly looks like the easiest way.
But I'm not sure why you say Tenobar is definitely in the borderland area. As I mentioned above, it straddles a line at the edge of the 24 mile hexes. Of course, it is on the west side of the river, but even that isn't sure proof when it comes to converting to 8 mile per hex.
Unless you meant in the text, but I couldn't find anything relevant myself.
I'd place the islands in Lake Amsorak as part of area 5.
I chose not to extend borders out over the lake, not least because the reference map didn't either. To be honest, I don't think it matters about the islands though, given their nature.
The border of area 36 should be moved south a little, to include the village of Armstead, incidentally allowing the village name to be used for the region name too.
I considered that when I drew the original borders, but eventually decided against it.
In any case, I don't think taking regional names directly from villages is necessarily a good idea. Though it is certainly the easiest option.
re: Dwarfgate and Malpheggi: These are officially classed as heartlands, not borderlands. The gazetteer notes that militarily significant areas are taken over by the central government in the interests of national security. I see no reason top demote them to borderlands. As heartlands, their councillors are elected, which may seem odd on the face of a presumably low local population. But given the way election candidates are chosen, they seem like perfect examples of "rotten boroughs".
In other words, they exist on paper only. Okay. But it seems highly unlikely that there is any population to speak of - unless you count the orcs.
re: Areas 40b and 41b: I think the best way to separate these would be to give control of the road east and its valley to Selenica.
That would work, but I'd rather give the area marked "Goblins" to 41b, and leave the last 24 miles of road belonging to 40b, since the map did clearly have that last hex of road marked as borderlands.
Putting Tenobar in area 24 and Athenos into 25 would work, but it would definitely make it into a map that disagrees fundamentally with the 24 mile map in the gazetteer. It also doesn't solve the issue of the missing 37th heartland region.
And the latter point is really the deciding factor - there's simply no point in doing it that way. It would take away the easiest solution to the missing heartland region.
I've been starting to put in some of the province names, I'll hopefully update the map sometime tomorrow, or perhaps later in the week.
Another interesting point from those pages is that the heartlands are supposed to have 37 different regions. I wonder if they are split up into that many on the map... *Goes off to count*
Nope- I pointed this out recently in another thread- where were you? ;)
Anyway, someone suggested that perhaps Darokin City itself is one of the regions (so, the Darokin Heartland, and Darokin city) which would bring the count to 37.
Also, as far as Province names, there is at least one Baron Corwyn Markone IV in the Borderland region around Fort Lakeside (the fort north of Amsorak- I think that's the fort's name). Maybe Markonia or Markone?
I also think that the provinces are probably not all continuous domains, but may be smaller (and even unclaimed) regions in and of themselves (ie, not all are baronies or counties, but may contain multiple such regions, and may include some territories that are not really directly administered).
I've been thinking about this all a lot recently, actually. I'm also wondering how such nobles would be addressed. Would it be, for instance, "Lord Magistrate Corwyn Markone IV, Baron of Markonia?" "Baron Corwyn Markone IV, Magistrate of Markonia?" or something else?
1b - Atruaghin Borderlands (and Tenobar heartland region)
Don't have my map handy at the moment, but isn't Tenobar a Borderland region? It always seemed that way to me both from what I recall of the map, as well as Tenobar's description in the Gaz (which has it as sort of a semi-independent city-state competing with Athenos).
Why is Tenobar, a major town and port, part of a borderlands
region? Presumably these regions were drawn up after Ardelphia got
sacked, as that too is in a borderlands region.
It's part of its character as a rugged frontier state. Think, say, Tennesse in the early days of the Republic. Grudgingly part of the new Republic, but fiercely pro-States' rights over Federal issues.
The gazetteer notes that borderlands magistrates can impose taxes more
or less on a whim, including road tolls, yet the major roads (including
the Darokin-Selenica route) pass through extended portions of
borderlands. Presumably the local magistrates are under standing orders not
to impose taxes that may interfere with traffic and trade on that road.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were toll road deals with independent parties regarding the major roads.
As far as other provinces, I almost forgot to mention the Barony of Fenhold (which is mentioned in the other thread, but should be included here). Note to Thorf in particular about this one- there is some discussion over there, IIRC, about the location of this province, and how it doesn't fit with the original depiction (CM8) and the map in Gaz11.
Why is the Malpheggi Swamp part of the heartlands? GAZ11 refers to it as a wild region full of pirates, lizards, crocodiles, etc. Areas 22 and 24 especially are almost all swamp, and should definitely be classed borderlands. But Athenos falls into area 24...
I have explained it, IMC, as there being native (Atruaghin) peoples settled in that region, and there have been resulting clashes between the settlers (Darokin) and the natives. The Council currently is not quite sure how to deal with the situation- the Borderlanders resent any intrusion by the "federal" government, but they need to defuse tensions somehow. The result, at the moment, is folding the Malpheggi regions into the Heartlands, until a more permanent solution can be reached.
One solution would be to attach Athenos to area 25, and make Port Tenobar and Fort Nar a new, small heartland province (1a). This would kinda make sense, because having a town in a borderland is quite strange.
See my previous post, but I don't find it all that strange at all. Tenobar, by its description, seems very independent, and I could freely buy their reluctant admittance into the Republic, with the Borderland designation (so they could largely administer themselves).
Another issue: why on earth are the Orclands considered heartland territories?!? Bizarre. In reality they are more wilderness than borderland, and it also seems likely that their magistrate is a name-only position. We should definitely re-label these as borderland territories. East Orcland and West Orcland might make good titles, too.
See the other thread for more discussion, but I imagine its somewhat similar to the Malpheggi reason I had above. Troubles with natives (orcs) and valuable mineral rights in the region would make the Council want to have some sort of jurisdiction over the region, even if there are few settlers foolish/brave enough to live there. Also note that the Emerlas region of the Canolbarth (northern Alfheim) *does* have settlers- some dwarves, humans, and halflings.
- Where there was only one major settlement in the region, I named it after that settlement.
- Long thin borderlands regions were named after the nation they border.
- Creative license was used in a few cases:
-- 11 Streel valley - It has 2 towns, neither of which would probably stand for the obvious loss of status in having the area named after the other.
-- 14 Corun's Glen - The city info text notes this as an old name for the city.
-- 15 & 45 South & North Nell - They are on either side of Fort Nell.
-- 28 Greyhare - This region surrounds that river almost entirely.
-- 30 Dream Borderlands - This region borders the area of PC1 Tall tales of the Wee Folk.
-- 36 Armstead - As noted, I favour moving the border south to include that village.
-- 43 & 44 West & east Dwarfgate - They could of course just as logically be named W/E orclands, but it seems more politic to name them after your allies' name for the region than after your sworn enemies.
The rotten boroughs of the Dwarfgates and Malpheggi give rise to an interesting adventure seed for high expert/low companion characters. The rotten borough normally relies on a single (or group of) settlements. Contact has been lost, and the players are sent by the councillor to investigate. It turns out the community has been annihilated. This is disastrous news for the councillor, as without a voting population, the region will be re-assigned as borderlands (or direct council control) when the next election comes (which may be soon). The party is re-sent to lead a re-colonising expedition. they are offerred a large reward for establishing a voting community, and depending on teh whims of the GM, this may eventually lead to the party getting control of the region in teh council, either by somehow exposing the machinations of the previous incumbent, or him retiring and nominating only party members for the election.
Incidentally, there have indeed been boroughs in various 'democracies' in the past which only had a single family of eligible voters, so this seed does have a basis in historical reality.
re: Tenobar. I guess it can also work if you keep it as a borderlands town. That too could potentially give it a distinct character from other towns in the nation, and variety is the spice of adventure after all. The reason I am sure it must be in that borderland region is that the 24 mile map has the entire area west of the river as being borderlands, following the river course along the entire length. That area includes the town.
re: councillor no. 37: The two ideas currently running are re-assigning the southern portion of area 1 as a heartlands region, and making the capital its own region. Both ideas were suggested by yours truly :embarrass I favour teh second one, as it also has the big advantage of not requiring any large scale conflicts with the canon maps, and it doesn't directly contradict any text.
The second option gives rise to some interesting political conflicts, especially if the councillor for Darokin City disagrees with the councillor for Darokin Province. UK observers can think back to Ken Livingstone vs Thatcher and Blair, although the analogy isn't really exact.
re: titles for magistrates. The gazetteer notes their official title is magistrate, and that they have status broadly equal to barons in more feudal nations. That baronial status is what makes me think their domains (especially the long thin ones) should be subdivided, but just leaving them as "xxxx Borderlands" and letting individual GMs works for me.
Barons are normally addressed as "Lord/Lady xxxx" in the UK, and that seems reasonable to extend to Darokin magistrates given their hereditary status. Within their fiefs, magistrates are free to insist their citizens address them with whatever title they like, and surely many of them do indeed want to be called "Baron xxxx", somewhat similar to the Alphatian "barons" on the isle of Dawn (pre-whoops). As an aside, it seems reasonable to suppose that councillors get addressed as "Councillor xxxx".
canonical magistrates/barons in Darokin include:
Baron Corran (WotI). Unsuccessfully tried to clear monsters out from the region in 821 AC. The site is in the Glantri Borderlands region, not far from the northern tip of Lake Amsorak.
Issues:
Why is Tenobar, a major town and port, part of a borderlands
region?
The clue is that it's a port. Historically, many ports in otherwise distant and "unsettled" lands grew quite large due to trade and shipping, but often remained lawless as it was difficult for the central authority to impose strict enforcement in these places. Tenobar looks extremely removed from Darokin proper, so one would presume it's a border town of this sort.
At 3 24 mile hexes, this is at what I consider the upper limit for the 'small magistrate domains' model, but the entire region could also be considered one domain in the large magistrate domains model. So this will work for everyone.
The region is called Farshire, and the magistrate is Sherif Jerred, a halfling. It has most of the characteristics of the shires themselves across the border. most of the halflings in Darokin will be found in this territory (or Hinmeet). Mar (pop 400) is the nominal seat of government, but that really just means it is where the sherrif lives. it is similar in layout to most hin villages, except there is also a cluster of human and dwarf houses above ground. This is the typical layout of all communities in the area. Farshire has a reputation for being a great place to avoid the bustle of big city life, as it is off the main trade routes. The sheriff is keen to keep it that way, and laws protect privacy quite well. The area is generally a lot less tamed than the shires though, and outside teh villages, monsters of the kind generally found in the shires and mountains are far more common.
Hin masters and knight-heroes can consider the Farshire to be part of the hin homeland.
Adventure hooks: abandoned orc/dwarf mines from their colonial days in the shires, mysterious strangers with secrets to hide, trade missions to open up the area for a merchant house, big bad monster threatens the villages.
I note that no one has mentioned the Borderlands territory along the Selenica road which forms the basis of the CM9 Legacy of Blood module. The dominion is called "Fenhold".
I mentioned it a couple of posts up from yours. It has been discussed a bit before, in this thread.
Its location is not precisely specified, but it would appear to be roughly in the location marked on Rhialto's map as 33 - although it is slightly smaller than the boundaries marked on the map (being one standard 24-mile hex dominion, which a player inheirits in the adventure).
From the module, it seems to me to be clearly placed in the space currently occupied by Dolos, actually- the 24 mile hex that covers the region just south of Alfheim. Dolos would (by its appearance on the 8 mile hex maps) be in the area just south of the swamps of Fenhold. IMC, I have moved Dolos just outside of the area, adjusting it a little bit to the south.
I've actually got a 1 mile/hex map of the region that I began a long time ago, and have never quite gotten back to finish.
[EDIT- This is a really old map, and needs to be revised, and (obviously) completed. Notably, the method of dividing 24 mile hexes into 8 mile hexes I've since revised to meet the more likely TSR standard- 7 8 mile hexes centrally located in the 24 mile hex- which this one doesn't have. It should, hopefully, provide a visual interpretation of the region for discussion, however.[/EDIT]
The town surrounded by white is the area where Dolos should occupy. The town in the southwest is where I have moved it to- close enough to the 8 mile hex that it might be put there on a large scale map, and very closely located to the Selenica road.
The clue is that it's a port. Historically, many ports in otherwise distant and "unsettled" lands grew quite large due to trade and shipping, but often remained lawless as it was difficult for the central authority to impose strict enforcement in these places. Tenobar looks extremely removed from Darokin proper, so one would presume it's a border town of this sort.
I'd also add that, frankly, the Republic is very young (only 73 years old in the Gaz era). There are still a lot of lawless and tenuously allied regions in the Republic. Most of the nation, as near as I can tell (and have decided IMC) was formerly independent City-States and petty dominions that decided recently (in the face of growing national and international interests) to form a more unified coalition.
The terms "Borderlands" and "Heartlands", IMO, are somewhat deceptive. Yes, the Borderlands all actually Border other territories- but so do some of the Heartlands. The Borderlands are not necessarily just uninhabited and lawless regions; nor are the Heartlands all centrally governed and populous.
IMO, many of the Borderlands are territories that- for one reason or another (greed, bullying, fear of surrounding nations) have agreed to become signatories to the Republic alliance, but only with the caveat that they are able to maintain a great degree of their autonomy. Thus, you have regions like Tenobar or Fenhold, where the rulers may be surrounded by nations who might otherwise war with them, or interior denizens who would rebel against local authorities, if they didn't have the threat of Republic reprisals to sustain them.
Conversely, several of the Heartlands territories are areas that lack large populations and local rulers, but contain assets that the Republic covets (mineral rights) or are regions that require a degree of stability that the Council must attempt to provide (my take on the Malpheggi region near Tenobar).
Ideally, and in a long term sense, the Heartlands Council would like to bring the Borderlands into the fold- as mentioned in the Gaz re: buyouts and confiscation- but at the moment, the Republic is too young to overtly exercise eminent domain, and too tenuously situated to risk internal strife and possible international conflict. Too, as the Republic stabilizes, some of the Borderlands domains might find it a more appealing prospect to relinquish their autonomy and join the Heartlands proper.
I'd rather just keep the borderlands as they are. It makes sense in a whimsical sort of way that some borderland regions would be tiny while others would be huge. Also, it would be much easier for magistrates to enforce extra taxes and such in small dominions, so perhaps there is that element to the sizes too.
Note that if each borderland region is a single dominion, then we have at least a few dominions that are way too large -- 1b strikes me as being too powerful for a dominion: it controls a significant trade route, one of the only two ports of Darokin, as well as three forts. Of course it has dangerous borders with the Atzanteotl followers and the Malpheggi swamp, but it also has a long stretch of plains along the southern shore of Lake Amsorak, so it would be quite rich and strongly defended -- yet it plays no role in the Darokin politics.
Also, Border Law is supposed to be simpler, and in many cases directly administered by the Magistrate, which seems unlikely in the case of a dominion as large as 1b or 32b.
Given also the existing information about Fenhold, where the barony is one hex, I'd say that one 24-miles hex is the average size for a dominion. Larger dominions might range to up to five or six hexes, but these would not be as common.
Note that if each borderland region is a single dominion, then we have at least a few dominions that are way too large -- 1b strikes me as being too powerful for a dominion: it controls a significant trade route, one of the only two ports of Darokin, as well as three forts. Of course it has dangerous borders with the Atzanteotl followers and the Malpheggi swamp, but it also has a long stretch of plains along the southern shore of Lake Amsorak, so it would be quite rich and strongly defended -- yet it plays no role in the Darokin politics.
Also, Border Law is supposed to be simpler, and in many cases directly administered by the Magistrate, which seems unlikely in the case of a dominion as large as 1b or 32b.
Given also the existing information about Fenhold, where the barony is one hex, I'd say that one 24-miles hex is the average size for a dominion. Larger dominions might range to up to five or six hexes, but these would not be as common.
My reasoning is that the extreme size of some of the borderlands areas, coupled with their lack of civilisation, population, and so on, not to mention the lack of safety (quite severe in some areas), prevent them from becoming extremely powerful.
In other words, they are big for that very reason. Silly laws and taxes are going to be pretty hard to enforce over such a large area, especially considering the probable lack of resources, and the total lack of any population centres in most of the borderlands.
Also, when it comes to the forts and such, I assumed that the magistrates of the borderlands don't have much control over the military, even when they are within their domains. The military is (presumably?) controlled by the council, adding just another reason why being the magistrate for a large area is probably not at all an easy job - and not all that profitable to boot.
When it comes down to it, all the arguments in this thread seem to be either trying to explain what we see as strange things in the Gazetteer, or else trying to change them so they make more sense. Most of us have been doing a bit of both, but in the end it comes down to individual judgement on which path you want to take.
The way I see Boderlands dominions is the following: the Kingdom of Darokin in AC723 fragmented into many smaller indipendent kingdoms, fiefdoms, dominions and city-states. Most of these political organizations shared a common feudal structure (like the one you can see today in the Borderlands).
When the Republic born in AC927, most of these dominions and city-states were absorbed by the new political entity, becoming the Heartland Regions of Darokin. Other dominions - perhaps of lesser economic value to the merchant-rulers of Darokin, perhaps too indipendent-minded, perhaps too costly to absorb given the difficult terrain and monster presence - were left mostly to their own, save for an oath of fealty to the Republic and some minor limitations of the authority of their rulers.
So, today, these rulers still possess some old title (count, baron, etc.), but to the Republica they're collectively known as "Magistrates of the Borders", a term that is used to indicate their common agreement and their common oath toward the Inner Council (and, by the way, sounds far less "feudal").
This way, you could have two solutions:
1) Mantain larger Borderlands, like the ones you put on the map; in this way the Magistrate of the Border would be the most important ruler of the area, the one responsible for it in front of the Inner Council - below him would be several rulers of smaller fiefdoms;
2) Shrink the Boderlands' sizes; every Magistrate rules and answer to the Inner Council for himself only.
P.S.: Like Ctulhudrew, I also came with a (different) solution to Fenhold's position. It's still found in the thread he indicated.
I'm of the school of thought that these provinces are more likely to be named after what the local region has been historically refered to as. The major cities are more likely to give there name to the surrounding area then the smaller towns and villages, IMO. Plus, I find it massively more interesting to give a province a historically significant name than just that of the settlement that appears on the map. (I hope to add some more history to Darokin for some of the regions).
So far, my suggestions for some names are:
2. Akesoli
7. Akorros
9. Molharran
10. Irum (? see below)
11. Favaro
12. Daelbar (? see below)
13. Callair (? see below)
14. Corun's Glen (offically, but is also refered to as Corunglain by many)
15. Inlashar
16. Eastwind
17. Eraeda
18. Streel (it would be interesting to know where this name comes from)
18a? Darokin (I like the idea of the capital being a seperate 'province' too)
22. Central Malpheggi
23. West Malpheggi
24. Athenos
25. Malpheggi
26. Meruvar
Daelbar and Callair are from Geoff Gander's article but I really don't know where they were actually located. If you see this Geoff, could you let us know where they, and some of the other named regions, would fit? That could fill in some more regions.
Well, that's my suggestions so far (still working on it).
1) Mantain larger Borderlands, like the ones you put on the map; in this way the Magistrate of the Border would be the most important ruler of the area, the one responsible for it in front of the Inner Council - below him would be several rulers of smaller fiefdoms;
That's definitely the best explanation for the bigger borderlands, I think. The overall magistrate would assign dominions to his various underlings, and the council only has to deal with the top man.
2) Shrink the Boderlands' sizes; every Magistrate rules and answer to the Inner Council for himself only.
Okay, so assuming that we were to do this, how would you want the borderlands split up? It may sound picky, but the real main reason why I don't like using a single 24 mile hex is that it's near impossible to fit a provincial label in. :P
P.S.: Like Ctulhudrew, I also came with a (different) solution to Fenhold's position. It's still found in the thread he indicated.
Thanks for the link! I promise to get to CM9 and Fenhold as soon as I can. (Right now I have picked up where I left late last summer - wrestling with the Red Steel maps, trying to sort out their myriad problems so I can steal the extra info.)
I've been doing some reading on Darokin's history to get an idea an how the area developed and thus some names for various regions of Darokin. I'm not finished yet by any means, but thought I could start by posting some region names that would remain from Darokin's past as detailed in this article by Aaron Nowack (which I thoroughly enjoyed, btw; excellent work).
Excellent idea! This is the sort of thing I was hoping for.
I'm of the school of thought that these provinces are more likely to be named after what the local region has been historically refered to as. The major cities are more likely to give there name to the surrounding area then the smaller towns and villages, IMO. Plus, I find it massively more interesting to give a province a historically significant name than just that of the settlement that appears on the map. (I hope to add some more history to Darokin for some of the regions).
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Just naming all the provinces after their geographical features begs the question, why bother labelling them at all? It's okay for some provinces to have the same name and city name, but all of them would look pretty unrealistic.
Thank you for researching these names!
So far, my suggestions for some names are:
11. Favaro
16. Eastwind
Up at the top of the thread, Agathokles suggested Ansimont for 11, and Eastwind for 17. Can either of you explain your choices?
18. Streel (it would be interesting to know where this name comes from)
18a? Darokin (I like the idea of the capital being a seperate 'province' too)
Yeah, it's clear that Streel/Streel Valley/Streel Plain or some such name using "Streel" should come in somewhere. And obviously we need a different name for this one if we are having Darokin as its own region - we can't have two Darokins.
All in all, these are some great suggestions. Please let me know if you can work out any more - historical names really are exactly what I was looking for, and when we have Aaron's history available to us, it seems a shame to waste the opportunity.
Okay, so assuming that we were to do this, how would you want the borderlands split up? It may sound picky, but the real main reason why I don't like using a single 24 mile hex is that it's near impossible to fit a provincial label in. :P
No need to split them in the map: the larger Borderland regions would be a patchwork of smaller domains (including some areas claimed by the central government, like the forts) that would not pop up in the large-scale map, but would be lumped together as they are, in large administrative regions.
These administrative regions would be needed to manage "auditing" of the magistrates (specifically, the Inner Council sends lawyers-envoys to the magistrates to decide on the appeals that borderland citizens can ask for in trials) -- regional department would oversee the local officers.
Up at the top of the thread, Agathokles suggested Ansimont for 11, and Eastwind for 17. Can either of you explain your choices?
Well, the Ansimonts and the Eastwinds were two of the mayor lines of Kings in Darokin. I suppose that they took names from their original lands (it happened often in RW). Both are supposed to come from central regions, near Alfheim. Ansimont is there, and is in the most likely position to be the cradle of the Eastwind tribes. The next best choice is the bordering region, near Alfheim.
Region 16 is also a good choice for Eastwind, but I'd like something closer to Favaro, which was the original seat of the Eastwind Kings.
I suppose one could also name region 11 Eastwind, due to the presence of Favaro, but I prefer to think that Favaro was once part of region 17, but was later absorbed by region 11 as the Ansimonts grew stronger.
BTW, since Elstrich is both the name of the river and that of the city, it's likely that regions 9 and 19 have names that contain "Elstrich", like Elstrich Valley or Upper Elstrich for region 9, and Lower Elstrich for region 19.
That's definitely the best explanation for the bigger borderlands, I think. The overall magistrate would assign dominions to his various underlings, and the council only has to deal with the top man.
If you choose this solution (i.e. larger borderlands divided into smaller holdings) I think that the overall Magistrate would be chosen by the Inner Council to hold that charge between the many lesser dominion-rulers of that Borderland Region. He could be the most powerful, influential, or rich of them all, or simply have strong connections to the Republic's government. At the moment of his death, the Republic choose his son or another noble to replace him.
This way, the GAZ11 phrase that stresses the Magistrate's hereditary position would refer to the fact that he is the hereditary ruler of his dominion.
Okay, so assuming that we were to do this, how would you want the borderlands split up? It may sound picky, but the real main reason why I don't like using a single 24 mile hex is that it's near impossible to fit a provincial label in. :P
Well, you're not asking me an easy thing... :P
From canon material, we know the names of two Borderlands domains: Fenhold (CM9) and Farstead (PC1), both located along Alfheim's southern border - so detailing the borders of all the Borderlands fiefdoms would mean creating the 99% of them from scratch!
Basically, if I'd had to complete a map of the Borderlands Regions, I'd use the following criteria:
- dominions in the mountains tend to be small (one or two 24-miles hexes);
- peaceful dominions would be a little larger (those along Sindhi, Alfheim, or Atruaghin's northern border - say two to four 24-miles hexes in size);
- the largest dominions would be located on the border with Glantri, the Broken Lands and eastern Atruaghin (a larger dominion has access to a larger amount of resoruces and income, and can defend itself better).
Even if you'll choose the "larger Borderlands" solution, I'd split most of the existing Boderlands Regions into smaller ones, the borders of which would follow the principles of an easier administration and of a better defense, as follows:
- 1b would be split in two: west of Mond River, and south of it; perhaps the large region south of Mond River could again be split in half (For Marny in the upper 1b, Fort Nar and Tenobar in the lower 1b);
- 3b would be split in four: the region from Akesoli Heartland to the Highlake River (relatively peaceful), the one from the Highlake to the Ithel River (Border Magistrare Baron Corwyn Markone IV, from GAZ11, 'Lakeside' entry), the region from the Ithel River to the Silver Sierras spur, and the region from the Silver Sierras to Fort Runnels;
- 4b, if you go with larger Borderlands, this region makes no sense as such; I'd rather unite it with one of the 3b regions (the one that goes from the Ithel River to the Silver Sierras);
- 32b would be split in two, about half way between its two borders;
- 40b and 41b would be united in a single Borderland Region.
I'd leave other Borderlands Regions as you've put them. ;)
Ah, another thing: what to do with Heartlands Regions nr. 22, 23, 24 and 42, 43, 44, 45? They're sparsely settled for sure and inhabited by humanoids and other foul creatures - but nevertheless they're indicated as Heartlands in GAZ11.
Could they - givern low population at best and dangerous wilderness - be considered something like protectorates, ruled by governors (with civil and military powers, perhaps chosen by the Inner or Outer Council) that are in charge of that Regions but spend most of their time outside them (i.e. in Darokin City)?
(Right now I have picked up where I left late last summer - wrestling with the Red Steel maps, trying to sort out their myriad problems so I can steal the extra info.)
I'm glad to see you back at work! ;) Keep on, you're really doing a great work!
(Right now I have picked up where I left late last summer - wrestling with the Red Steel maps, trying to sort out their myriad problems so I can steal the extra info.)
Fantastic news!
Thank you for researching these names!
It was quite a pleasure! There are some really great works done by fans.
Up at the top of the thread, Agathokles suggested Ansimont for 11, and Eastwind for 17. Can either of you explain your choices?
No problem. First of all, I used this map
and also info from Geoff's article (bold are names I've used so far):
The Duchy of Corunglain (proclaimed AC 628)
The Duchy of Ardelphia (proclaimed AC 647, destroyed by humanoids AC 846)
The Duchy of Callair (proclaimed AC 672, laid waste by humanoids AC 702, territory claimed by Corunglain AC 704)
The Kingdom of Daelbar (proclaimed AC 669, nearly destroyed by orcs following Fall of Ardelphia, faded away by AC 875, territory claimed by Corunglain AC 891)
...
The Duchy of Favaro (proclaimed AC 662, collapses in civil war AC 690, considered part of Streel Marches by AC 700)
Principality of Dirnath (proclaimed AC 678, collapses AC 686, part of Streel Marches AC 690)
The Duchy of Rondeth (proclaimed AC 685, despoiled by Red Duke of Irum AC 785, absorbed by Duchy of Amsorak AC 791)
Kingdom of Almarand (proclaimed AC 699, conquered by Darokin AC 914)
Barony of Sashenta (proclaimed AC 682, conquered by Duchy of Amsorak AC 756)
Duchy of Irum (proclaimed AC 690, obliterated by Darokin-Almarand alliance AC 807)
Barony of Eraeda (proclaimed AC 700, collapses AC 738, part of Streel Marches AC 740)
Barony of Nethlinn (proclaimed AC 693, despoiled by Red Duke of Irum AC 791)
The assumption that I'm using is that these latter duchies and baronies occupied land that was originally part of the older 'nations' depicted on the map above. In the example of #11, I assume that The Duchy of Favaro sat on land originally part of the Eastwind lands and so became known by that more resent name. The land to the east (#16) did not fall under the Duchy of Favaro's borders and thus were still known by the older name of 'Eastwind'. So there's my thought process. ;) (P.S. Geoff, if you see this, are you able to give locations for these baronies? That would be absolutely great! Oh, and more maps of historical times would be amazing!)
Yeah, it's clear that Streel/Streel Valley/Streel Plain or some such name using "Streel" should come in somewhere. And obviously we need a different name for this one if we are having Darokin as its own region - we can't have two Darokins.
Exactly. Here's a thought that just hit me; if we use the Doulakki peoples as one of the main initial human populations to spread in Darokin, then I propose that 'Streel' (or a name on which that one was based) was the name of one clan of Doulakki that first settled the valley along this mighty river. Thus the region would have been refered to as the Streel Clan's holdings. Any other ideas?
All in all, these are some great suggestions. Please let me know if you can work out any more - historical names really are exactly what I was looking for, and when we have Aaron's history available to us, it seems a shame to waste the opportunity.
Agreed! I love this history stuff!
Change log:
1 - Dropped the idea of Tenobar being separated out as a heartland region. No one seems to have chimed in favour of it, and the capital district option seems to have unanmous support.
2 - provinces previously named after villages are changed to ???, village name noted in brackets.
3 - Names from ships (GAZ4) Markuri, Illefarn placed by yours truly.
4 - Added "Darokin City" as the council seat no. 37.
5 - Molharran, Irum, Favaro, Daelbar, Callair, Inlashar, Eastwind, Eraeda, Meruvar placed by Hugin.
6 - Malpheggi regions named
7 - land 45 renamed, as "North xxxx" makes no sense without "South xxxx".
8 - Moved Callair from 13 to 15
---The List---
1b - Atruaghin Borderlands
2 - Akesoli
3b - Glantri Borderlands
4b - ?
5 - ?
6 - ? (Bronsdale)
7 - Akorros
8 - ? (Crowlerd)
9 - Molharran
10 - Irum
11 - Ansimont (honours the old line of kings, other names: Favaro, Streel Valley)
12 - Daelbar (Rennydale)
13 - ?
14 - Corun's Glen
15 - Inlashar (or Callair)
16 - Eastwind
17 - Eraeda (or Eastwind) (Wrasseldown)
18 - Streel (aka Darokin province)
19 - Elstrich
20 - ? (Hendry)
21 - Markuri
22 - Central Malpheggi
23 - West Malpheggi
24 - Athenos
25 - East Malpheggi
26 - Meruvar (Hinmeet)
27b - Farshire (see my post downthread)
28 - Greyhare
29 - Illefarn
30b - Dream Borderlands
31 - Dolos
32b - Traldar Borderlands (the name never got updated when Stephan took over)
33 - ?
34 - Cruth
35 - Nemiston
36 - ?
37 - ? (Reedle)
38 - Selenica
39b - Alfheim Borderlands
40b - ?
41b - ?
42 - Hobart
43 - East Dwarfgate
44 - West Dwarfgate
45 - Nell (or Callair)
46 - Darokin City
46 lands, including 37 heartlands and 9 borderlands
But, I got a little curious as to what it would look like to place the 300 B.C. kingdoms on the 1000 A.C. Darokin map. I actually only did this for my own sake but figured I might as well just post anyway. It is NOT a work of art! ;) I'm am no cartographer by any stretch of the imagination and had just quickly drawn this in using Paint.
If you choose this solution (i.e. larger borderlands divided into smaller holdings) I think that the overall Magistrate would be chosen by the Inner Council to hold that charge between the many lesser dominion-rulers of that Borderland Region. He could be the most powerful, influential, or rich of them all, or simply have strong connections to the Republic's government. At the moment of his death, the Republic choose his son or another noble to replace him.
This way, the GAZ11 phrase that stresses the Magistrate's hereditary position would refer to the fact that he is the hereditary ruler of his dominion.
That sounds fine to me.
Well, you're not asking me an easy thing... :P
From canon material, we know the names of two Borderlands domains: Fenhold (CM9) and Farstead (PC1), both located along Alfheim's southern border - so detailing the borders of all the Borderlands fiefdoms would mean creating the 99% of them from scratch!
Pretty much, yeah. :D Perhaps this is the best reason not to split up the borderlands much more than they currently are. After all, it's good to have some dominion space free for players too.
Basically, if I'd had to complete a map of the Borderlands Regions, I'd use the following criteria:
- dominions in the mountains tend to be small (one or two 24-miles hexes);
- peaceful dominions would be a little larger (those along Sindhi, Alfheim, or Atruaghin's northern border - say two to four 24-miles hexes in size);
- the largest dominions would be located on the border with Glantri, the Broken Lands and eastern Atruaghin (a larger dominion has access to a larger amount of resoruces and income, and can defend itself better).
These sound like good criteria to me.
Even if you'll choose the "larger Borderlands" solution, I'd split most of the existing Boderlands Regions into smaller ones, the borders of which would follow the principles of an easier administration and of a better defense...
You know, I think we're arguing different sides of the same coin here. The only difference is whether there is one magistrate or many magistrates - everyone seems to be in agreement that the borderlands must be subdivided. The thing is, detailed subdivisions are not really necessary on the map either way (especially since we'd have to think up a ton of extra names too).
In other words, perhaps we have reached a consensus.
Also, subdividing the borderlands further on the map would make it harder to see which areas are heartland and which are borderland. Of course, this is arguably not necessary, as it could be shown on a separate map easily enough.
- 4b, if you go with larger Borderlands, this region makes no sense as such; I'd rather unite it with one of the 3b regions (the one that goes from the Ithel River to the Silver Sierras);
On the contrary, having large and small borderlands is not in the least contradictory - it even says that there are both in the text on pages 10 and 11.
In any case, mostly I think your splitting of the borderlands is quite reasonable. The question is, do we want to mark those splits on the map, and therefore have to name each region separately, or keep them as descriptive text only?
Ah, another thing: what to do with Heartlands Regions nr. 22, 23, 24 and 42, 43, 44, 45? They're sparsely settled for sure and inhabited by humanoids and other foul creatures - but nevertheless they're indicated as Heartlands in GAZ11.
Could they - givern low population at best and dangerous wilderness - be considered something like protectorates, ruled by governors (with civil and military powers, perhaps chosen by the Inner or Outer Council) that are in charge of that Regions but spend most of their time outside them (i.e. in Darokin City)?
It does seem unlikely that they are all actually elected by the local populace. Probably some or all of them are heartland dominions in name only, whereas in reality they have almost no civilised communities, and the positions are similar to those of governments in exile.
As for explaining their status, perhaps they are heartlands simply to give them increased importance and priority at the council. There could also be military connections.
I'm glad to see you back at work! ;) Keep on, you're really doing a great work!
Thanks.
Geoff, if you see this, are you able to give locations for these baronies? That would be absolutely great! Oh, and more maps of historical times would be amazing!)
I would be happy to oblige! I do have a later historical map of Darokin, depicting all of the baronies, duchies, and kingdoms that arose after the kingdom fell, set just after the time Favaro and Dirnath collapsed, and became the Streel Marches. The only problem is that I don't have ready access to a website at work, and my computer at home is slow. So, if someone is willing to host the map, I would be happy to email it to them.
I would also note that I have plans to produce a number of maps during this time period, to reflect major historical events and border changes.
I'll get to the rest of the post as soon as I can.
Geoff
But, I got a little curious as to what it would look like to place the 300 B.C. kingdoms on the 1000 A.C. Darokin map. I actually only did this for my own sake but figured I might as well just post anyway. It is NOT a work of art! ;) I'm am no cartographer by any stretch of the imagination and had just quickly drawn this in using Paint.
This is very good, Hugin! A very useful tool for reference purposes.
Geoff
Callair
Technically split between dominions 15 and 45 (about 2/3 is located in #15, so I would designate that one)
Molharran
#9 is an excellent choice. Although the bulk of Molharraners during the kingdom's height of power lived in and around Elstarath (Elstrich) and the lands immediately to the north and west, the region where #9 is located now also contained several important towns and villages - many of which, while still inhabited by people of Molharraner stock, are considered backwaters now. Elstrich has long since become a more cosmopolitan town - there is little left of the old capital city, aside from the castle, remnants of the old wall, a few bridges, some roads and statues, etc.
Irum
Irum was located between the Elstrich and Mond Rivers (where the dominion of Molharran (#9) would be located today). I would add, though, that due to the evil acts of Duke Rudgard between AC 765-795), the name of Irum probably has negative connotations.
Daelbar (Rennydale)
Another excellent choice. #12 contains much of what was once Daelbar - the rest is in #8. I would note that the ruins of Mintarm (the old capital city) would be somewhere in #12, as well.
More to come!
Geoff
Could be a possibility.
1b
You could use the name of Nethlinn, one of the realms destroyed by Irum.
4b - ?
4b occupies the western half of Brethilad, the reclusive elvish kingdom that was destroyed many centuries ago. Aside from (IMC) a group of monks inhabiting the former fortress of Brethilad, hardly anyone lives in the Amsorak River valley today; although the entire area is prevaded by a sense of peace, and loss. Of course, reclusive homsteaders and the like could easily have moved in (orcs give the place a wide berth).
8 - ? (Crowlerd)
The Duchy of Rondeth occupied parts of dominions #8 and 10.
11 - Ansimont
Ansimont was the capital of Almarand from the time of its founding (AC 699) to the kingdom's final collapse in AC 914. The kings of Almarand claimed to be the legitimate heirs of the old Darokinian Kings - part of what spurred the often nasty fighting with Darokin to the south for many years. There would probably be many people in influential positions in Darokinian society who would rather not see the name of Almarand appear on any map - the same people who would rather not see the current king (now in exile) ever return to the republic.
17 - Eraeda (Wrasseldown)
Another excellent choice. During the period following the collapse of the kingdom, one ambitious soul, claiming to be descended from the old lords of Eraeda, claimed the region around Wrasseldown for himself, and crowned himself Baron of Eraeda in AC 700. The realm lasted long enough to be passed on to his son, who was assassinated (some say by Darokinian agents) in AC 738, after which the barony dissolved into feuding fiefdoms, and was generally considered part of the Streel Marches before being pacified by Darokin in the 9th century.
Even so, the romanticised history of the first kingdom of Eraeda lives on in many songs (some from Ansel Darokin's time), and most Darokinians are likely familiar with the name, and probably claim some form of kinship with it (regardless of what their true ancestry might be). The current magistrate, or whoever runs the place, might very well claim descent from the old Eraedan lords, too (although he would likely be more circumspect about it).
26 - Meruvar (Hinmeet)
From the timeline that Aaron and I wrote, almost all references to Meruvar were destroyed after that realm's fall, owing in large part to the blasphemous practices permitted by its lord. Even its capital city, Ardannon, was torn apart stone by stone, and cast into the swamp. Still, some fragmentary references managed to avoid detection (how else could adventurers be lured there?), and so the region might be named after the old capital, perhaps - maybe something like Ardann, Aerdan, Dannon, Ardon, etc. Just an idea, which could be a possible adventure hook in itself.
27b - Farshire (see my post downthread)
Interesting! In my own fragmentary work (still needs to be fleshed out), I had developed the concept of the North Shire. Basically, after the collapse of the kingdom, hin in the region began to forge ties with their cousins to the south - largely for security, but also out of cultural affinity. Things progressed, and it soon looked like the North Shire would join the Five Shires. The Darokinians, unwilling to let a portion of what they considered their land to secede, made a few gestures to encourage the hin to rethink their plans, and encouraged more human settlement of the region. Knowing that any retaliation against the human settlers would bring nasty consequences, and the money and support being offered by the Darokinians would be useful to them, the hin acquiesced, and the North Shire was reincorporated without a proverbial shot being fired.
30b - Dream Borderlands
An alternative is Comaelle (again, from Aaron's timeline). Although the legendary city of the Eraeda is lost, many historians believe that it was located somewhere along the western fringes of the Canolbarth Forest. In reality, it's probably located in #17 or #13, but they could easily have selected this location.
45 - Nell (or Callair)
This is where I would probably put Inlashar, mainly because the hilly country here is where the bulk of those people with the strongest Inlashar bloodlines live. Large concentrations also exist further west (and in Corunglain, and at one time in Ardelphia), but this is where the local rulers might logically be able to claim descent from some old chieftain - the authorities probably would have recognised the claims in order to keep them quiet, and to help ensure their loyalty.
Geoff
I would be happy to oblige! I do have a later historical map of Darokin, depicting all of the baronies, duchies, and kingdoms that arose after the kingdom fell, set just after the time Favaro and Dirnath collapsed, and became the Streel Marches. The only problem is that I don't have ready access to a website at work, and my computer at home is slow. So, if someone is willing to host the map, I would be happy to email it to them.
I use Imageshack to host images on the web (it was recommended to me by someone on this board some time ago and come in real handy). If you'd like, just email any maps to me at [email]morris_of_nfld@yahoo.ca[/email] and I could get them posted here via Imageshack. Either way, I HAVE to see those maps! :D
I would also note that I have plans to produce a number of maps during this time period, to reflect major historical events and border changes.
Yes! Now you have to!
Thanks for all the info. I'm going to look into it all to see about changes we should make to our names, given the new info.
P.S. I'm also in the middle of writting up the History of the Dwarfgate Mountains Region. I should be able to finish it today and get it posted (likely in a new thread come to think of it).
I'm the Giovanni Panniccia who started the idea of finding Darokin dominions in Thorf's map.
I'm glad to see it was a liked idea, with a great following.
I'm also very glad to see this forum, in the official WotC page. I hope to find here lots of nice people and (more of all) Mystara lovers!
2 - Akesoli
5 - Brethald (a deteriation of Brethilad)
6 - Gairsland (made-up name of someone who controlled much of this territory when Darokin was formed a century ago)
7 - Akorros
8 - Rondeth
9 - Molharran
10 - West Streel (one of a few regions designated Streel due to various reasons. This one was part of the Streel Marches)
11 - Almarand (named after an older dominion to avoid any political complications of using either Anismont or Favaro)
12 - Daelbar
13 - North Streel (this area was also part of the Streel Marches)
14 - Corun's Glen (offically titled Corun's Glen but it is very often refered to as Corunglain)
15 - Callair
16 - Eastwind
17 - Eraeda
18 - Central Streel, aka Darokin province (was not named after any person or political entity for political reasons)
19 - Elstrich
20 - South Streel
21 - Markuri
22 - Central Malpheggi
23 - West Malpheggi
24 - Athenos
25 - East Malpheggi
26 - North Shire (a token move from the Great Merger to sway the halflings there to participate in the creation of the new Republic)
28 - Greyhare Shire (see above. This name developed later out from North Shire)
29 - Illefarn
31 - Dolos
33 - Fenhold (I know there has been discussion about this but from what I understand it should be able to go here. If not, let me know)
34 - Cruth (It's an interesting possibility that this region's history may have given the name to the mountain range; maybe)
35 - Nemis (the town's name deriving from the region)
36 - Isselden (an elf may have had something to do with this region's past...)
37 - Dolak (name descended from the ancient name of the Doulak Valley)
38 - Selenica
42 - Hobart (Selenican hero who spearheaded the defense of the area in the early years of the new Republic's life)
43 - East Dwarfgate
44 - West Dwarfgate
45 - Inlasher
46 - Darokin City
So, there's a list of all the heartlands. Comments?
I will take Hugin's latest list and do a preliminary workup of the map, although I can still change it at request.
Unfortunately, I will not have Internet access again until late next week, so I doubt I will be able to post the updated map until then. See you next week!
- historically, such name patterns refer either to recently colonised and spaersely populated areas (Dakota), areas politically divided by a war (Germany, Korea, Vietnam), or once-sparsely populated areas that had major demographic shifts (Yorkshire). None of those seem to apply.
- The areas in question do NOT form a contiguous area, which is utterly at odds with any real-world precedent.
Also, I'm a bit uneasy about 26 and 28 being "xxx shire". GAZ11 says halflings aren't particularly common in Darokin. having one land as the "shires modifed by darokin" is good for interest, but I can't really see a campaign role for two. Plus I see the borderlands on that border as filling that role anyway. Those two lands, plus the borderland that they encircle, total almost 50% of the entire shires, which seems a bit excessive for an enclave.
A case could be made for having the majority of the SE lands being named "xxxx Shire" in honour of the Hin naming convention, but relations, while very good, don't strike me as being that good.
Apart from that, I'm happy with that list.
The first name in the following list is my first choice, followed by alternative names that have been proposed (in no particular order).
10 - Wesmar or Westmark (A corruption of west march), Irum, West Streel
13 - Ismar or Eastmark (A corruption of east march), Callair, North Streel
18 - Darokin Province, Streel, Central Streel
20 - Helleck (after the river), Hendry (after the village), South Streel
26 - Hinmeet (after the village), Meruvar (but records of this kingdom have been purged), North Shire
28 - Greyhare (after the river), Greyhare Shire
Although generally there is a good reason not to name lands after villages, given the Village of Hinmeet's location on the major trade route, a case could be made for it being an important centre in its own right, and the low population simply being a result of typical Hin opinions on urban development. Hinmeet (land 26) would be halflings as seen under full Darokin law and a councillor, while Northshire/Farshire (land 27) would be halflings as seen under marginal/borderlands Darokin law, complete with Hin-style sherrif (magistrate).
I have a bit of an issue with 10, 13, 18, and 20 from Hugin's list. they are all "xxxx Streel". Nothing wrong with regional designators based on major terrain features in itself. But it feels odd for such a central area for a few reasons:
One of the territories could just be called "The Marches" - #13 would probably be the best one, as that region was considered part of the Streel Marches for a very long period of time. It covered much of the old Duchy of Favaro, which was one of the first petty nations to collapse.
The people who lived in that region spent the better part of 200 years on their own, and by the time of the Great Merger, they probably saw themselves as a community unto themselves. Some people in that part of the republic might even still call themselves "March Men" or "March Women" with pride...
Geoff
Also, I'm a bit uneasy about 26 and 28 being "xxx shire". GAZ11 says halflings aren't particularly common in Darokin. having one land as the "shires modifed by darokin" is good for interest, but I can't really see a campaign role for two. Plus I see the borderlands on that border as filling that role anyway. Those two lands, plus the borderland that they encircle, total almost 50% of the entire shires, which seems a bit excessive for an enclave.
I'd tend to agree with this in regards to 28, especially (as Rhialto noted) because of the Borderland nature of 28, and it is mentioned specifically that Hinmeet was created as a waystation/trading post between the two nations.
10 - Wesmar or Westmark (A corruption of west march), Irum, West Streel
I kind of like Westmark myself.
26 - Hinmeet (after the village), Meruvar (but records of this kingdom have been purged), North Shire
I don't really like Hinmeet myself- it's just a village, after all, and a fairly new one at that. Given that the size of the domain is much larger than just that village, I think another name would work better. I kind of like a "Shire" name, but given the location of it (more inland from the Shires than not), I don't know that it feels quite right.
10 - Wesmar or Westmark (A corruption of west march), Irum, West Streel
One of the territories could just be called "The Marches" - #13 would probably be the best one...
I love the sound of 'The Marches'! And then we could have #10 as 'Westmark'. Much better than mine. It's the same kind of thinking that I wanted but I couldn't come up with anything better than xxxx Streel (plus, it was late ;) )
18 - Darokin Province, Streel, Central Streel
I liked Darokin Province better myself as well (that's why I put it in as an a.k.a.), but I was trying to have some kind of 'Streel' thing going... Since we have something better now I have no use for using xxxx Streel.
20 - Helleck (after the river), Hendry (after the village), South Streel
Of these I like 'Helleck' best, but maybe someone could make up a name (and perhaps a brief history behind it) for the area. Or, maybe a variation of the word Helleck.
26 - Hinmeet (after the village), Meruvar (but records of this kingdom have been purged), North Shire
28 - Greyhare (after the river), Greyhare Shire
The idea behind the 'Shire' idea actually came from the Vaults (at least I think so now). I read it when doing up my history of the Dwarfgate Mountain Region and then when I came back to this I couldn't find it anymore!
I don't remember the details but I do remember liking the story. I recall that the naming of the heartland ????? (what *do* we call the heartland regions? districts?) was a concession to keep the hin of the area from leaving for the Five Shires. Man, I really want to find that article again... grrrr. This area would be significantly different from the Shires though, considering the fact that they moved out of the Shires and the much greater human population that intermingles with them.
As for the borderlands there, I'm inclined to think they are not ruled by any halflings for political purposes related to needs at the time of the Great Merger. Since no halflings were to be 'rulers', Darokin had to use other ways to keep the hin positive towards the Repubic's formation.
Perhaps we could use single words (i.e. Northshire and greyhareshire) to give a better sense of being shire-like but significantly different? Thoughts?
For Darokin Province, I can see a decent case for renaming it to "Streel valley". It's like, there's a Darokin Republic, Darokin Province, Darokin City, and probably a Darokin Quarter complete with Darokin Alley. Give the name a rest already! Perhaps "Darokin City" the council seat region should be renamed to something else too. "Capitol" sounds good.
Regarding the provinces brodering the Shires, naming them xxxxshire (no space) wouldn't fix anything. That's the standard naming convention both in the real world and within the Hin homelands, and is utterly cosmetic in any case. Having the space is simply wrong.
I imagined the Hinmeet heartland currently being held by a Hin councillor, who got in quite by chance, and perhaps an informal consensus exists among rich hin to only nominate other hin for election.
The borderland on the shires may be even more interesting. Historically inhabited by many hin (though not utterly dominated like the shires proper), but isolated from the main hin communities by the mountains, it was easier to seek support from the humans in Darokin rather than the Shires. At the same time, the sheriff never fully identified with human culture, and the strong privacy attitude and continuing legal status as a borderland is the result.
Regarding national naming convention for the provinces, I favour "xxxx heartland" or "xxxx borderland", with "xxxx land" as the generic name.
To make this thread useful in a more permanent manner, perhaps someone involved could collate the information into a document and send it to to Shawn's Vaults? There's already a lot of usefull stuff on Darokin, and this would complement it nicely.
For the marches, I'd rather have "Westmark" and "Eastmark" as teh official names, and that way, we leave "The marches" as a popular way that locals refer to their area collectively. As far as they are concerned, its all The Marches, regardless of what those idiot bureaucrats in Darokin City may say.
This sounds perfectly reasonable to me. On a map, they would be Westmark and Eastmark, but anyone passing through the second would probably get blank looks, or a smirk, if they used those names. I'll definitely have to note this in my slowly coalescing resource on Darokin.
Geoff
I'm sure there will be some comments on the names I ended up using. I'm still open for changes.
Regarding province names...
- I'm not sure Ardelphia was actually a separate territory from the Lakeside borderlands. It certainly deserves to be though, given the geographical distance. In any case, it should be marked as a borderland.
- I strongly believe the various "marches" lands should be adjacent (see my explanation for why upthread). This applies to "The Marches", "Northmark", and "Southmark".
- There's no historical basis for having a march-styled land where Southmark is.
- Kudos on having the good sense to use "Canolbarth" instead of "Alfheim" for that borderland.
- "Amsorak", "Northshire", and "Camaelle" probably need to be identified explicitly as borderlands.
- I'm not sure Ardelphia was actually a separate territory from the Lakeside borderlands. It certainly deserves to be though, given the geographical distance. In any case, it should be marked as a borderland.
Ardelphia was destroyed in 846 AC, over 80 years before the Great Merger, so there were never any Borderlands when it was still a populated city. As such, I kind of question the naming of that region as "Ardelphia", simply because it seems unlikely (to me) that they would name a region after a city that they never even bothered to rebuild or reclaim (it's one of their biggest failures).
Also, East Dwarfgate might be termed the Emerlas (or some versoin of that), as that is how that region is known to the elves. Then again, maybe not.
Fenhold is a lot bigger than it is depicted in CM8. That goes back to the idea that the borderlands should actually be broken into smaller administrative units, though, I suppose.
I like the work very very much. But I miss Farstead Dominion.
I like very much the neighbouring countries! Now we have a complete Darokin - Alfheim - Upper Broken Lands map! Quite nice, and you can travel a lot ;)
If a land is named "Ardelphia Borderland", it would be an Alamo-esque reference, rather than being named after the city as a living entity.
I suppose, it just seems strange to me that 80+ years after the fact, and after the nation has undergone a major political transformation, that the region would be known after a city that has not been inhabited in a generation or two, rather than, say after a particular noble who rules there or his dominion, or so forth. I would find the latter situation far more likely. After all, if Ardelphia has not been reclaimed in all of that time, it seems that the central focus of the inhabitants of the region are more on some other area- a village, or other aspect of the region (maybe they're vintners, or something, and the area is named Vinland)- rather than a ruined, long-dead, given up to the ghost and no longer a concern of anyone city.
I suppose, it just seems strange to me that 80+ years after the fact, and after the nation has undergone a major political transformation, that the region would be known after a city that has not been inhabited in a generation or two, rather than, say after a particular noble who rules there or his dominion, or so forth. I would find the latter situation far more likely. After all, if Ardelphia has not been reclaimed in all of that time, it seems that the central focus of the inhabitants of the region are more on some other area- a village, or other aspect of the region (maybe they're vintners, or something, and the area is named Vinland)- rather than a ruined, long-dead, given up to the ghost and no longer a concern of anyone city.
I live i Rome, Italy. Here, in the countryside, there is a village, better, a village runis. The village was abandoned in (I think) late 1800, becouse of a plague. It was called "Monterano". The village was in great part digged in tufa. I and my palyers was there some times to explore some ancient ruins and feel as our PCs when they explore a dungeon. The area outside the ruined village is called "Canale Monterano" (meaning somethin like Monterano Hollow, Monterano Deep and Monterano Canyon), just after the village name. (you can see some picture of what it's like today here: Monterano = Old Ardelphia
Nobody lives there, nobody is interested in it. And more than 2 generations.
So, I see nothing strange about it...
First up, WOW to the new style and the inclusion of neighbouring countries.
Glad you approve.
It does take a long time to set them up, and republishing them also takes a while, so I probably won't be updating them very often. (Then again, I didn't anyway! :P )
Regarding province names...
- I'm not sure Ardelphia was actually a separate territory from the Lakeside borderlands. It certainly deserves to be though, given the geographical distance. In any case, it should be marked as a borderland.
This was a simple result of our choice of the name "Lakeside"; the Ardelphia region is not "lakeside" by any stretch of the imagination.
So, we either have to find a more all-inclusive name, or split the region in two. As the Ardelphia region has two forts and a very dangerous border, it seemed natural to make it the heart of the new (borderland) region.
As to where the split should go, it could be above Bronsdale, or it could be further along towards Amsorak province.
- I strongly believe the various "marches" lands should be adjacent (see my explanation for why upthread). This applies to "The Marches", "Northmark", and "Southmark".
- There's no historical basis for having a march-styled land where Southmark is.
I'm fine with that, but in that case we need new names for the regions currently marked Northmark and Southmark. The reason I used them where I did was simply for lack of names. Northmark et al seem like rather generic names for regions without anything else of note, so in the absence of another name I put them in.
(I may have missed some names in this thread, though - there have been quite a few lists, and while I tried to take the best from all of them, it was a bit confusing at times.)
In any case, what would you rename them to?
- Kudos on having the good sense to use "Canolbarth" instead of "Alfheim" for that borderland.
That was an easy call. I don't like the idea of using another country's name as the name of a region - borderland or not. Hence my preference for Nethlinn over Atruaghin, etc.
- "Amsorak", "Northshire", and "Camaelle" probably need to be identified explicitly as borderlands.
I think I decided halfway through the map that including "Borderland" in the region name was going a bit far. I don't think they would have that in their official name. Perhaps I should mark them all with "(Borderland)" after their name, as I think I originally intended.
Ardelphia was destroyed in 846 AC, over 80 years before the Great Merger, so there were never any Borderlands when it was still a populated city. As such, I kind of question the naming of that region as "Ardelphia", simply because it seems unlikely (to me) that they would name a region after a city that they never even bothered to rebuild or reclaim (it's one of their biggest failures).
The very lack of effort to rebuild suggests to me that the whole region is largely uninhabited/abandoned, aside from the military installations. I agree that if the region was resettled the name might be changed, but as Arcanda said, abandoned areas tend to retain their original names. Look at the Scottish island of St. Kilda, which was abandoned long ago but retains its name regardless.
In the end, it depends on how we think the nation deals with failure: do they tend to brush it under the rug and forget about it, or do they want to keep it fresh in their memories so as not to repeat the same mistakes? Ardelphia has always struck me as the latter kind.
Also, East Dwarfgate might be termed the Emerlas (or some versoin of that), as that is how that region is known to the elves. Then again, maybe not.
That would be nice, because then we could have two distinct names rather than an east/west pair. But do you think the name is used in Darokin?
Fenhold is a lot bigger than it is depicted in CM8. That goes back to the idea that the borderlands should actually be broken into smaller administrative units, though, I suppose.
Yes, that is definitely true. The name is there right now because people wanted to see it on the map, I think, but really it should be a sub-dominion in a larger borderland region, with a different overall name. Of course, that would remove the name "Fenhold" from the 8 mile per hex map altogether...
Hmm, it's a difficult call. Drawing in Fenhold on this level of map would make it the only sub-dominion marked. And yet naming the whole region as such goes against our knowledge of the area as presented in CM9.
Perhaps we could kill two birds with one stone, and divide one of the smaller borderlands regions (the equivalent of two 24 mile hexes - there are a couple like that) in two. Mark one of them Fenhold, the other Farstead.
Perhaps we could kill two birds with one stone, and divide one of the smaller borderlands regions (the equivalent of two 24 mile hexes - there are a couple like that) in two. Mark one of them Fenhold, the other Farstead.
It would be nice ;)
I definitely like the decision of not subdividing Borderlands Regions on the map and to use the charge of Magistrate of the Borders as a sort of "governor" over many smaller Boderlands dominions.
However, I'm still a bit unsure about Fenhold position. I think the barony should be located in the Borderlands Region labeled "Canolbarth Borderland". The central hex of Fenhold Barony IMHO should be the third 8-miles hex south of Glowtree Good Magic Point, in Alfheim, becouse:
1) the northernmost 8-mile hex of Fenhold Barony seems to be heavy forested (from CM9's map);
2) the trade road featured in Fenhold's map (still from CM9) seems to cut the barony in half (while the road seems to cut the Fenhold of your map too much north).
If so, I'd call the Borderlands Region east of Dolos by another name.
Only my two-cents suggestion, anyway! ;)
In the original map it seems there is a borderland north of Selenica and an other one east of Selenica.
Also I keep on wishing for Farstead as it is my favourite. And the town of Alleybrooke too ;)
But we are speacking of details... the work is one of the greatest ones :D
Wow Thorf, the updated map is wonderful!
I definitely like the decision of not subdividing Borderlands Regions on the map and to use the charge of Magistrate of the Borders as a sort of "governor" over many smaller Boderlands dominions.
However, I'm still a bit unsure about Fenhold position. I think the barony should be located in the Borderlands Region labeled "Canolbarth Borderland". The central hex of Fenhold Barony IMHO should be the third 8-miles hex south of Glowtree Good Magic Point, in Alfheim, becouse:
1) the northernmost 8-mile hex of Fenhold Barony seems to be heavy forested (from CM9's map);
2) the trade road featured in Fenhold's map (still from CM9) seems to cut the barony in half (while the road seems to cut the Fenhold of your map too much north).
If so, I'd call the Borderlands Region east of Dolos by another name.
Only my two-cents suggestion, anyway! ;)
That sounds fine to me. It's either there, or the current location of Dolos - which would obviously be problematic.
If we put Fenhold in there, though, we will split the Canolbarth Borderlands into three parts. There's no established way to show that Fenhold is a sub-dominion of the whole borderland region.
The easy way out would be to keep one of the regions Canolbarth, make up a new name for the other, and ignore the whole sub-dominion thing, at least as far as the map is concerned.
That still leaves us with an unnamed region (the one currently labelled Fenhold on my map). And we also need to place Farstead, which has much looser conditions for placement.
Looking at PC1, here's what I have found:
- There is a town called Alleybrooke "on the trade route to Selenica". Probable locations for this town: between Dolos and Nemiston, maybe close to the location we discussed for Fenhold. It could go on the tiny stretch of road in the Cruth area.
- Farstead can be placed anywhere in Darokin in a forested area. PC1 suggests near the Dreamlands, but states that elsewhere is okay too.
- The map of Farstead shows clear land with the village of Farstead, and forests close by to the south. A river flows through the forest and past the town. That's all - unlike Fenhold, it's very flexible in regards to placement.
- PC1 also shows two small villages, Tallwoode and Grundale, two hexes and three hexes respectively south of the Dreamlands.
So... We have quite a few things still to add from there.
One solution would be to make Comaelle one 24 mile hex including Tallwoode and Grundale, and make the other half Farstead.
Any thoughts?
In the original map it seems there is a borderland north of Selenica and an other one east of Selenica.
Also I keep on wishing for Farstead as it is my favourite. And the town of Alleybrooke too ;)
But we are speacking of details... the work is one of the greatest ones :D
And what about Altan Tepes Borderland?
In the original map it seems there is a borderland north of Selenica and an other one east of Selenica.
The 8 mile per hex map includes an area not shown on the 24 mile per hex map, which links the two borderlands. I have chosen to leave them linked, under the name Altan Tepes Borderlands, since they are almost all mountains anyway.
Also I keep on wishing for Farstead as it is my favourite. And the town of Alleybrooke too ;)
But we are speacking of details... the work is one of the greatest ones :D
Hehe, I was writing my post about these while you posted this. :D Any preferences for where to put them?
If we put Fenhold in there, though, we will split the Canolbarth Borderlands into three parts. There's no established way to show that Fenhold is a sub-dominion of the whole borderland region.
The easy way out would be to keep one of the regions Canolbarth, make up a new name for the other, and ignore the whole sub-dominion thing, at least as far as the map is concerned.
This seems the best solution to me. 8-miles map doesn't need to show anything, so once we've reached consensus over the precise location of Fenhold, we can go with the larger Borderlands Regions without any problem.
The "Fenhold" Borderlands Region would then need another name - but at the moment I've no nice ideas...
The same is true for Farstead. I'd put the town of Alleybrooke along the Darokin-Selenica road, at the point in which the trail coming north from Fort Cruth crosses the road itself; there, or in the Borderlands Region labeled 'Fenhold' at the moment.
The domain of Farstead seems better be located in the Comaelle or "Fenhold" Borderlands Region (perhaps the former could work better). Anyway, again - as with Fenhold -, I'd not split the whole region. ;)
Tallwoode and Grundale would be a nice addon. But... what about the active hsiao complex? It would be really nice to have a hsiao town too in Comælle ;)
I split Comaelle into two halves, making one the dominion of Comaelle, with the villages of Tallwoode and Grundale. The other half is now Farstead, with the village of Farstead.
Further up, I added Alleybrooke in the best looking location, and then I cheated and tweaked the borders to include it in our last nameless region. By doing so, of course, I was able to use Alleybrooke as the region name.
(Regarding the tweak I made to the borders: it doesn't disagree with the 24 mile per hex map, it's just that it crosses a 24 mile hex, and is therefore impossible to display at the smaller scale. However, it should be noted that the majority of official maps don't restrict their 8 mile per hex maps by trying to keep them easy to convert to 24 mile per hex scale.)
Lastly, I added Fenhold (village and dominion), and changed the hex below the village to swamp. I skirted the issue of dividing the Canolbarth Borderlands by simply repeating the caption. Under the circumstances, I think it seems clear that Comaelle, Farstead and Fenhold are established dominions in the Canolbarth Borderlands, while the other areas remain either unsettled or undocumented.
While making these revisions, I have redone all the borderland captions. Due to space issues, I shrunk the borderland province captions, while also adding (Borderland) to those without "Borderlands" in their title already.
And finally, I revised some of the province names.
Oh, about the Hsiao complex - I would love to be able to add it in, but it would really make that already extremely crowded area even worse. Moreover, there are too many of them marked on the PC1 map. I think it's much better to leave them on the large scale (1 mile per hex!) map. It's not that they aren't there on the 8 mile per hex map; they're just too small to see. ;)
I'm thinking about doing the PC1 and PC4 large scale maps quite soon, by the way...
I'm thinking about doing the PC1 and PC4 large scale maps quite soon, by the way...
Drooling...
I just uploaded the new, updated version of the map.
But...
Farstead is indicated as a Dominion, not a Borderland...
Anyway...
It seems very logical to me that on the Darokin City - Selenica road there were horse chagne stations. It is a carovan road, maybe the most important in the Known World. So it is obvious to expect to find horse change, and maybe also inns and taverns.
And eventually also villages. In the new map you must travel 10 hexes from Darokin to Grundale to find the first civilized place. And there is no rest between...Grundale, Farstead and Dolos are very good to exchange horses and to have a nap.
I like the Darokin map more and more with every day!
You really deserved a NPCin Serraine! :p
The very lack of effort to rebuild suggests to me that the whole region is largely uninhabited/abandoned, aside from the military installations. I agree that if the region was resettled the name might be changed, but as Arcanda said, abandoned areas tend to retain their original names. Look at the Scottish island of St. Kilda, which was abandoned long ago but retains its name regardless.
You and Arcanda both raise some interesting arguments, and I will stand corrected on the Ardelphia issue.
That would be nice, because then we could have two distinct names rather than an east/west pair. But do you think the name is used in Darokin?
Hard to say. There is at least one human village in the region (I think it lay within the Alfheim border, though), and one dwarvish village in the vicinity (distinctly outside the Alfheim border, from my reworkings of the O2 map). I wouldn't be at all surprised if they used the elvish term for the place- or some Common language derivative- simply due to their proximity to Canolbarth, and their distance from other human/Darokinian communities.
Perhaps we could kill two birds with one stone, and divide one of the smaller borderlands regions (the equivalent of two 24 mile hexes - there are a couple like that) in two. Mark one of them Fenhold, the other Farstead.
Could be- but I see the difficulties you suggest being an argument against it as well. I'd personally like to see the smaller divisions, but then you run the risk of a) cluttering the map, and b) complicating the Borderland distinctions. Tough call on this one.
But...
Farstead is indicated as a Dominion, not a Borderland...
I thought it was pretty ambiguous. The description of Lord Brennan made me think he sounded like a magistrate of the borderlands, though. Plus, PC1 recommended for it to be near the Dreamlands.
Did you want Farstead to be one of the Heartlands? Perhaps the one that I labelled as Alleybrooke, for example? That is certainly possible, and easy enough to do.
Anyway...
It seems very logical to me that on the Darokin City - Selenica road there were horse chagne stations. It is a carovan road, maybe the most important in the Known World. So it is obvious to expect to find horse change, and maybe also inns and taverns.
And eventually also villages. In the new map you must travel 10 hexes from Darokin to Grundale to find the first civilized place. And there is no rest between...Grundale, Farstead and Dolos are very good to exchange horses and to have a nap.
Well, remember that just because there is no village marked does not mean that there is no village there; settlements smaller than a few hundred are generally not marked on the 8 mile per hex maps. You can be sure indeed that there will be inns, stables, small villages and so on all along the major trade routes at regular intervals - including the Darokin-Selenica road.
Of course, if anyone wants to name a few for marking, now would be a good time... But you can only fit so much on the map before it starts to get really crowded.
I like the Darokin map more and more with every day!
You really deserved a NPCin Serraine! :p
Hehe. :D I couldn't have come so far on this map without help from you and everyone else here.
You and Arcanda both raise some interesting arguments, and I will stand corrected on the Ardelphia issue.
I failed to mention my other (far less compelling) argument, which is that I have always had a liking for Ardelphia. :D I don't know if it's the idea of a big ruined city, or just the great potential for adventure there, but it has always intrigued me.
Hard to say. There is at least one human village in the region (I think it lay within the Alfheim border, though), and one dwarvish village in the vicinity (distinctly outside the Alfheim border, from my reworkings of the O2 map). I wouldn't be at all surprised if they used the elvish term for the place- or some Common language derivative- simply due to their proximity to Canolbarth, and their distance from other human/Darokinian communities.
The other slight worry I had is if the Emerlas region extends that far out, to the Rockhome border.
In any case, for now I marked it on.
Could be- but I see the difficulties you suggest being an argument against it as well. I'd personally like to see the smaller divisions, but then you run the risk of a) cluttering the map, and b) complicating the Borderland distinctions. Tough call on this one.
Again, for now I marked them on. I think marking a few borderland dominions should be fine, but if we were to mark them all on, things would really get quite hideously cluttered. Just look at the Comaelle/Farstead region next to the Dreamlands... I wouldn't want things to get that cluttered all over.
has a final list been agreed upon here?
No one has replied to my last update of the map. Tactit approval, perhaps? ;) :P
Seriously, it would be nice to get it finalised. Does anyone have any comments for the current version? Bear in mind that in order for me to change anything, you have to give me something to change it to, as well as just pointing out the mistake or criticism.
Does anyone have any comments for the current version?
I totally like the new map.
Apart from the bit with "The Marches" and "Northmark", I'm happy with it. A march and a mark are basicaly the same thing, and not only are these two areas geographically disparate, but you have one named in a way that would suggest the other is merely a part of it.
I don't think there is a problem with them being separated geographically - there are various examples of that in real world placenames.
However, as I said before, unless you provide an alternate name, there's not much I can do. What would you call them? The best solution would be to have an entirely new name for the area currently labelled Northmark. Alternatively, we could call them Northmark and Southmark, or more probably Westmark and Eastmark.
No one has replied to my last update of the map. Tactit approval, perhaps? ;) :P
I definitely like the new version of the map.
Only two things ( :P ):
- the Emerlas region, according to O2, should lay completely within Alfheim borders, so IMO it's unlikely that the Darokinian government had named one of the two Orclands Borderlands Regions "Emerlas". I'd rather go with the previous names, i.e. East and West Dwarfgate - or, better, Upper and Lower Dwarfgate.
- O2 shows a dwarven village located along Alfheim border, in the northernmost Orclands Borderlands Region. It's called "Granitgape", IIRC. On the Italian MMB we've explained the presence of dwarves in this area of the Orclands with the project developed by the Wyrwarf clan of Rockhome, to propose a more open attitude toward other races, and elves in particular (the present Wyrwarf clanmaster in an elf-friend). So, we've placed some more dwarven communities an the area (200 people in all). These communities are small fortress-like villages that have much more ties with the dwarven enclave in Alfheim Town than with their motherland.
- Joshuan's Almanac makes mention of a Darokinian village named "Letitia", which would be located near Fort Lakeside (it's attacked by orcs and Darokinian troops come from said fort in its relief).
- the Emerlas region, according to O2, should lay completely within Alfheim borders, so IMO it's unlikely that the Darokinian government had named one of the two Orclands Borderlands Regions "Emerlas". I'd rather go with the previous names, i.e. East and West Dwarfgate - or, better, Upper and Lower Dwarfgate.
Okay... I only just had a look at the module now, and I agree with you. Andrew did mention that it was not necessarily a good idea.
It looks to me as if the region in question is the very northern point of Alfheim - which is indeed what the description in O2 says too. As for the name, "The Emerlas", it is very ambiguous as to whether it refers to only the forest, or to the whole area including hills and such... But I would tend towards the former, since the hills do have their own name.
Therefore, I will restore the Dwarfgate names. I do like to steer clear of directions as much as possible, but I'm not sure that Upper and Lower would be good in this case... On the other hand, Greater and Lesser might work, because West Dwarfgate is a bit bigger.
- O2 shows a dwarven village located along Alfheim border, in the northernmost Orclands Borderlands Region. It's called "Granitgape", IIRC. On the Italian MMB we've explained the presence of dwarves in this area of the Orclands with the project developed by the Wyrwarf clan of Rockhome, to propose a more open attitude toward other races, and elves in particular (the present Wyrwarf clanmaster in an elf-friend). So, we've placed some more dwarven communities an the area (200 people in all). These communities are small fortress-like villages that have much more ties with the dwarven enclave in Alfheim Town than with their motherland.
This is interesting... O2 also mentions a human village called Scrubton. However, both Scrubton and Granitgape are destroyed just before the adventure in O2 begins. I suppose that is no reason not to add them on, although I'm not convinced that they are significant enough to add to the map at this scale. Also, Scrubton appears to be inside the forest, and both villages would be right next to each other on the 8 mile per hex map.
We might well consider adding the "Misty Hills" label, though.
- Joshuan's Almanac makes mention of a Darokinian village named "Letitia", which would be located near Fort Lakeside (it's attacked by orcs and Darokinian troops come from said fort in its relief).
That is interesting, because it would give us a village in an otherwise empty area. Good find!
- the Emerlas region, according to O2, should lay completely within Alfheim borders, so IMO it's unlikely that the Darokinian government had named one of the two Orclands Borderlands Regions "Emerlas". I'd rather go with the previous names, i.e. East and West Dwarfgate - or, better, Upper and Lower Dwarfgate.
Another possibility (I'm looking at the module right now), is to play off of the "Misty Hills" name that seems to be applied to the area outside the Emerlas proper (which, indeed, does seem to be only the Canolbarth area). Maybe something with "Mist" in the name? Mistleton, Mistdown, something like that?
Another possibility (I'm looking at the module right now), is to play off of the "Misty Hills" name that seems to be applied to the area outside the Emerlas proper (which, indeed, does seem to be only the Canolbarth area). Maybe something with "Mist" in the name? Mistleton, Mistdown, something like that?
The problem there is that the hills are only a relatively small feature of an area unquestionably dominated by the Dwarfgate Mountains.
The problem there is that the hills are only a relatively small feature of an area unquestionably dominated by the Dwarfgate Mountains.
But who goes on the mountains? Hills are so misty that nobody ever adventures farter, and so "mist" and "hills" are the only landmarks people knows.
That may be an idea. After all, names are not givent for whar a think is, but after what it appears.
That's why "Dwarf" is a strange name for the area. Ther are orcs, there are trolls... no dwarves at all. I know it is the mountain range just before Rockhome, but Rockhome is sooooooooo far away. The name Dwarfgate suggest a mountain pass, a major road to go to Rockhome. Instead you find bands of raiding orcs and no road at all...
Anyway, I'd add the "Misty Hills" label to the map.
As for the dwarfgate Mts, I postulated that dwarves did exist in those mountains for some time and were usually the ones that the humans and elves interacted with in the past. Therefore, the mountains were seen as the gateway for the dwarves. Of course, the humanoids eventually forced them out some 500 years ago but as far as the humans are concerned, those mountains are the place from which the dwarves came forth. (The humanoid settlements were founded on some of the old dwarven ones).
Also, those mountains are seen as massive protective walls that surround the dwarven nation, so I see no reason why the name wouldn't persist. The lesser/greater option sounds pretty good to me; we don't have many uses of lesser/greater in Mystaran geography so why not use it?
'Orcland' sounds much more like a slang type of label in that they plague that part of Darokin (note that it doesn't appear on the gaz's map although described in the 'places of interest'). This is a situation Darokin would love to see remedied.
One last thing to think about is the fact that names of places are not always or nessessarily an 'accurate' description of their current state.
I've fixed it in the latest update, along with a couple of other changes. For now I changed The Marches and Northmark to Westmark and Eastmark, but that means we have Eastmark next to Eastwind.
The other changes are Nethlinn is now a name suffixed with (Borderland), and I tweaked some borders, especially between Alfheim and Karameikos, to make them fit better with the edges of the mountains. Note that this has placed Armstead in a heartland region, which I didn't initially want to do, but it seems to make sense for the mountains to be the natural border there.
Edit: I won't be uploading the update just yet, because I am in the process of upgrading my web space. Hopefully I will get it uploaded to the new server later in the week.
From Book #2 of WotI boxed set.
Pg 12: "The adventure takes place in the Silver Sieras Moutains on the border between the nations of Glantri and Darokin, not far from the noorthernmost tip of Lake Amsorak."
Pg 13: " Your trip takes you due north along a game trail into the Silver Sierras." and "At the end of the first day, you've travelled only a dozen miles."
The next day: "...you turn off the game-trail" east or west?
"Young Noriad says that there was once a trail here, and shows you occasional crumbled trail markers to prove it...." But there is no indication of how far the group is supposed to travel this day, but I am guessing 6-7 miles.
But where does it go on the map. From the description in the adventure-text the Keep can be located in several of the hexagons along the Darokin-Glantri border north of Fort Lakeside.
What about Corran Keep from WotI...
But where does it go on the map. From the description in the adventure-text the Keep can be located in several of the hexagons along the Darokin-Glantri border north of Fort Lakeside.
I placed it right along the border in my map of the Great Crater, and included the "Barony" of Baron Corran in the borderland domain that is around Lakeside.
(IMC, I had the disheartened Baron Corran, after losing his wife and son, give up his lands and title to one Corwyn Markone, of whom the current Corwyn Markone IV is the direct descendant.)
But that doesn't correspond with the description given in the WotI-boxed set. It is only 12 miles north, plus 6-7 miles in a western or eastern direction.
I can see from your map that have placed the ruin/keep 24 miles north-northeast of Fort Lakeside.
But that doesn't correspond with the description given in the WotI-boxed set. It is only 12 miles north, plus 6-7 miles in a western or eastern direction.
IIRC, it does correspond to the ruins in the 24 mile/hex map that is included in the WotI boxed set, though. I'll have to check later to be sure. (I am referring to the little inset map of the Great Crater on the larger, post-WotI map; I was pretty sure I placed it to correspond with that map. It may not necessarily match the description in the text, though- I hadn't thought to check that, but if the two locations don't match, there may have been a miscommunication with between the designer and cartographer. I'm intrigued, now, though. Wonder if I did get it wrong?)
I am referring to the little inset map of the Great Crater on the larger, post-WotI map; I was pretty sure I placed it to correspond with that map.
*digs through a pile of maps*
Granted! That seems to be the case, but the same 24-mile hex divides into 7 8-mile hexes, which gives us 7 different locaions for the keep on the 8-mile scale.
Granted! That seems to be the case, but the same 24-mile hex divides into 7 8-mile hexes, which gives us 7 different locaions for the keep on the 8-mile scale.
Yeah, it's been a long time since I made that map, but IIRC, the reasoning behind my placement was due to the notation that a) is is close to the border with Glantri, and b) it is devastated by the meteor's impact (but, seemingly, not completely obliterated, since there are still ruins). The actual location could certainly be modified somewhat.
The crater created by the impact is about 48 miles in diameter. But as far as can tell from the map(s) is the craters impact center in the hex nw of the keep.
But this still doesn't explain the difference between what is written in the adventure and what is printed on the map.
But it could be that the map suffers for being printed at a large scale, so there isn't room enough for all the details........ So that the Fort Lakeside and Corran Keep should have shared the same hex icon. But since it can't they drew the map, to give the direction to the tower, that is to the north of the fort.
I hope you can make sense of my ramblings....
Quote: WotI book #2 Pg. 80: "Ironically, its point of impact is dirrectly on the upon Corran Keep, on the Darokin/Glantri border."
The crater created by the impact is about 48 miles in diameter. But as far as can tell from the map(s) is the craters impact center in the hex nw of the keep.
But this still doesn't explain the difference between what is written in the adventure and what is printed on the map.
Yep- it's a mess. I remember having the same problem. The text says it slams right on Corran, but the actual impact is somewhere in Glantri. I chose to go with the maps over the text in this case, since later products all utilize the same map (with the impact point inside of Glantri, and not on Corran.)
But lets leave it up to Thorf to place it on the map..... :evillaugh :P
No seriously should we follow the description in the book or the placment printed on the map? (I know that the text was compiled by A. Allston, not a man with many fans on this board, but still... ;) )
But I also know that my players were happy only to walk around 20 miles to get to the keep. Compared to what they othervise would have had to do.
Regards
Gary