-+1 INT, +2 WIS, +1 CHA
-Fey
-Medium-Sized
-Base Land Speed: 30 ft.
-Lowlight Vision
-Shapechangers: Wild Shape (tiny-huge), Wild-Shape (elemental), A Thousand Faces
-Naturally Psionic: 2 PPs at 1st level
- Psi-Like Abilities: 3/Day: Aura Sight, Danger Sense, Chameleon; 1/Day: Tower of Iron Will, Mindlink, Conceal Thoughts, Empathy, Intellect Fortress, Mental Barrier, Mind Blank, Thought Shield, Ego Whip.
-Racial Skills: All Druid Class Skills
-Racial Abilities: Nature Sense, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, Woodland Stride, Venom Immunity.
-Level Adjustment: +13 (or +16)
-Favored Class: Druid (automatic)
-Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarven, Halfling.
-Bonus Languages: Terran, Ignan, Auran and Aquan
So please, without flaming, correct me where I'm wrong
.Also their ability stats should be much higher.
example: +2 str, +6 dex, +2 con, +4 int, +8 wis, +4 cha.
You can't add a class skill list onto a race. All races have a pre-set list of skills that are available to them before they take a 1st level in some class. Check the Savage Species to see how to create such monster creatures. Or check Monster Manual for more info. Take Ogre for an example and study him - Ogre Barbarian is perfect example.
The rest is ok, I think.
However, a half-breed, a quarter-reen or somesuch could be possible.Wouldn't it be interesting if the original Pyreen were Nature Masters who gave themselves versatile long living forms to keep the secrets of the Rhulisti and their surviving kin hidden away from prying eyes.
Just a thought...
Wouldn't it be interesting if the original Pyreen were Nature Masters who gave themselves versatile long living forms to keep the secrets of the Rhulisti and their surviving kin hidden away from prying eyes.
I thought the pyreen were a rebirth race? Hence, they don't have the knowledge of the nature masters (halflings)....just a tought....
I thought the pyreen were a rebirth race? Hence, they don't have the knowledge of the nature masters (halflings)....just a tought....
Yep. They're all rebirth races. Even the kreen.
I thought the pyreen were a rebirth race? Hence, they don't have the knowledge of the nature masters (halflings)....just a tought....
IIRC all the rebirth races descended from the Rhulisti, they were transformed by the Pristine Tower into new forms more suited to the Green Age.
The kreen aren't a new race, they were described somewhere as large winged insects that flitted from island to island during the Blue Age. They developed a higher intelligence at some point, possibly towards the end of the Blue Age.
IIRC all the rebirth races descended from the Rhulisti, they were transformed by the Pristine Tower into new forms more suited to the Green Age.
The kreen aren't a new race, they were described somewhere as large winged insects that flitted from island to island during the Blue Age. They developed a higher intelligence at some point, possibly towards the end of the Blue Age.
IMO all intelligent races are new races. Ie - pterrans yes, pterrax no, although they're simmilar.
IMO all intelligent races are new races. Ie - pterrans yes, pterrax no, although they're simmilar.
Page 3 in Thri-Kreen of Athas if you follow the official rules, the kreen are described as primitive during the Blue Age, then were able to expand and develop during the Green Age. While they weren't intelligent they are not a rebirth race, but it's up to individual Dms
Wouldn't it be interesting if the original Pyreen were Nature Masters who gave themselves versatile long living forms to keep the secrets of the Rhulisti and their surviving kin hidden away from prying eyes.
Here's my opinion Bell:
Based on discussions on the very subject of "Did the rhulisti retain knowledge or were their memories wiped clean?" on the boards, and having worked at editing Nyt's short stories on that subject, I'm pro having the rhulisti remember enough stuff for a few months/years - when they turned into the Rebirth races - so that the Green Age civilizations could kick start nearly instantly, but later on they forgot it. (Important: the rhulisti seem to have wanted to see their knowledge lost to time to ensure the world would not be tempered with again.)
I could see the pyreen as a special case. Rhulisti would have created the perfect Rebirth race in them, very long lived, bla bla, and would have retained enough rhulisti knowledge and knowledge of their former personalities to act as shepherds for the new races. Eventually they too forgot the secrets of lifeshaping, as planned.
(Btw, even some halfings did not turn into Rebirth races, as halfings now a days inhabit forests and in the first few millennia of the Green Age were seen inhabiting the cities of the Rebirth races, but their numbers dwindled until they one day were no longer a part of world civilization.)
(Btw, even some halfings did not turn into Rebirth races, as halfings now a days inhabit forests and in the first few millennia of the Green Age were seen inhabiting the cities of the Rebirth races, but their numbers dwindled until they one day were no longer a part of world civilization.)
Not to mention the fact that some became the Rhul-thaun.
The Pyreen could have easily been tied to this as well IMO.
Were Pyreen ever statted out in 2nd ed? I recall one in the mini adventure in Beyond the Prism Pentad who was effectively a Druid of level 15 or so. Don't quite see how that makes them epic. If the whole race was epic I don't see how the Champions prevailed in the Cleansing Wars.
Yep, they were in the first monster compendium.
The idea to make them epic was from the community at the time and when the Leshay came along we thought designing it close to that would be best.
Just because they are epic doesn't mean they would be able to stop the Champions from doing what they did. They have always been a very minority race, the current age sees their numbers even smaller than that, and they wouldn't be on comparable powerwise to a Champion, at least IMO they shouldn't be anyways, though probably close.
But to the subject Pyreen as PCs....nah, not if you ask me. Mainly because of their racial benefits, and I don't think they were created in DS to be a playable race....I think they were thought as a "bump in the road" for evil players and defilers or as a helping hand for those who serve for the benefits of athas...
They could be playable, in campaigns where an Epic race could be available. IE: An Epic campaign where one of the existing characters (who already is Epic) dies, so then the player has the option to play that (which is how I make certain races more available -- when the campaign equals or exceeds the ECL of that race).
I just don't see them as being all that adventurous, or all that aggressive for things. They always seemed to be more of a "watcher" race -- observing the changes of time, without really directly influencing them if at all possible. I don't really see Pyreen even as a very viable group of opponents for evil characters -- because the Pyreen seem far more keen on remaining hidden and secretive, than openly opposing evil.
I just don't see them as being all that adventurous, or all that aggressive for things. They always seemed to be more of a "watcher" race -- observing the changes of time, without really directly influencing them if at all possible. I don't really see Pyreen even as a very viable group of opponents for evil characters -- because the Pyreen seem far more keen on remaining hidden and secretive, than openly opposing evil.
Yeah, with the exception of what's his name who goes out of his way to recruit people to help take on the Dragon (when he was around, probably be focused more on Dregoth once he makes his prescence known now), they are more of a watcher race from the Highlander series IMO than a race that makes an impact on the world like the other rebirth races try to do.
Yeah, with the exception of what's his name who goes out of his way to recruit people to help take on the Dragon (when he was around, probably be focused more on Dregoth once he makes his prescence known now), they are more of a watcher race from the Highlander series IMO than a race that makes an impact on the world like the other rebirth races try to do.
Well there was that crazy pyreen who created magic. I can't remember his name though :P
Well there was that crazy pyreen who created magic. I can't remember his name though :P
Ooooh, two of em!
:P
:D
Well there was that crazy pyreen who created magic. I can't remember his name though :P
Yea, but he's like a real big exception to the rule. :P
How about Villichi? How would they be written up as a character class? They wouldn't be a PrC, because they're selected from the time they're infants. They'd have to have prerequisites in psionic power first... Not to mention they'd have to be strictly female.
they would be a psionic race similar to those found the in XPH.
How about Villichi? How would they be written up as a character class? They wouldn't be a PrC, because they're selected from the time they're infants. They'd have to have prerequisites in psionic power first... Not to mention they'd have to be strictly female.
Do you mean racial levels? (Each level accounting for a point of LA.)
If not, then use the Villichi racial entry in Terrors of Athas.
Yep, they were in the first monster compendium.
The idea to make them epic was from the community at the time and when the Leshay came along we thought designing it close to that would be best.
Just because they are epic doesn't mean they would be able to stop the Champions from doing what they did. They have always been a very minority race, the current age sees their numbers even smaller than that, and they wouldn't be on comparable powerwise to a Champion, at least IMO they shouldn't be anyways, though probably close.
Quick trip to RPGnow.co and downloaded the DS MM1. In there they're "only" level 15-20. While not opposed to epic Pyreen the whole race being epic seems... over the top?
I will have better comments when I get to reading the whole thread.
I'm sure this will be debated some more. The general consensus however is that they will probably be epic like the leshay and have druidic SP-like abilities that are cast at a level of 15-20.
I did a 1 HD (with an LA if memory serves) playable version at one point and that was shot down so quickly by the community it made my head spin. I might do something along the lines of maybe 4 HD or so with druidic SP-like abilities for something on an unofficial level, but I can't see the official version not being epic from some of the discussions we have already had about it.
As far as making them playable? I'm torn, which is part of the reason why I want to make a smaller scale version of it that is more playable in lower levels.
I wouldn't think they would be below ECL +7 if they were made non-epic anyhow.
I'd not think they were below an ECL of +15 or more if they were made non-epic anyhow. We're talking about a race that has innate high-level druidic and psionic abilities. A race that more or less is suited towards becoming the Druidic Advanced Beings (Spirits of the Land); a very, very long-lived race (or we could have it that most of them become Spirits of the Land, and thus might consider that a natural part of their life-cycle, becoming immortal beings linked to a specific region). But that also would do silly things like play into my personal take on that particular Advanced Being type.
I wouldn't think they would be below ECL +7 if they were made non-epic anyhow.
Yeah but it allows PCs to deal with them without the "look its 10+ CRs ahead of us" effect. They might be CR 15 or so but ECL 19-20.
Yeah but it allows PCs to deal with them without the "look its 10+ CRs ahead of us" effect. They might be CR 15 or so but ECL 19-20.
There's two ways to look at the pyreen. Are they a race that innately gain the abilities of a high level druid/psion or are they just an extremely long lived race,with some innate abilities, that happen to also be high level characters with those levels being in druid and psion?
I could go either way personally.
- they are innately powerful, with lots of psi and druidic abilties, at NPC creation time
- they can't quite get more powerful than that unless a very big period of time passes, because all that LA will take a long time for an NPC to absorb before he can take his first class level
Making pyreens innately powerful ensures they are the mythical beings described in the DSMC and setting books, and doubles as a bottleneck device to maintain their power relatively low (near what they start with in the first place).
- I hope I'm understanding this right -
There's two ways to look at the pyreen. Are they a race that innately gain the abilities of a high level druid/psion or are they just an extremely long lived race,with some innate abilities, that happen to also be high level characters with those levels being in druid and psion?
I could go either way personally.
IIRC its clearly said their abilities are innate. Nyt and Xlor could confirm the "innate" part.
IIRC its clearly said their abilities are innate. Nyt and Xlor could confirm the "innate" part.
From a 2e source where "monsters" couldn't have character levels.
From a 2e source where "monsters" couldn't have character levels.
As Athas.org does tend to favor rstaying at least within the flavor of the 2E material, the flavor for Pyreen is that they innately are druid/psionic characters. They are defined as being very powerful from the start, so I'd say that will weigh heavily in the decision process. If they don't start as epic, they'll be really, really close to it. Pyreen without druid/psionic abilities would be like Dragons without animal-life energy defiling capabilities.
As Athas.org does tend to favor rstaying at least within the flavor of the 2E material, the flavor for Pyreen is that they innately are druid/psionic characters. They are defined as being very powerful from the start, so I'd say that will weigh heavily in the decision process. If they don't start as epic, they'll be really, really close to it. Pyreen without druid/psionic abilities would be like Dragons without animal-life energy defiling capabilities.
True, but isn't the animal-life defiling ability supplied by a "PrC" now rather than an innate ability due to the character's new form/race?
I'm not saying that a pyreen would be a low level race, but just because they innately had the abilities of a 20th level druid and psion in 2e doesn't necessarily mean that it has to equate that way in 3e.
I could go the non epic or the epic route with them I really could. I'm just playing devil's advocate and trying to give reasons why they don't have to be epic as well.
True, but isn't the animal-life defiling ability supplied by a "PrC" now rather than an innate ability due to the character's new form/race?
The Athasian Dragon, by definition, was possibly one of the first ever Epic PrC's created for D&D (considering it was in 2e). At the same time, the metamorphosis was pushed by a series of spells in the 2e world. Attempting to use the statement that one of those factors is more of the "Dragon" than the other, in either the 2e mechanics, or in the updated 3.5e mechanics, is silly, and somewhat flawed. The animal-life defiling ability is part of being a dragon. That just is what it is. Dragons in 2e had it, Dragons in 3e have it. Attempting to list the mechanical aspects of Dragons in the rules, which are rather mutually exclusive to Pyreen in every way, shape, and form, and then using the mutually exclusive mechanical qualities of one as an analogy to the other, is fallacious.
What I compared was that a quality of Pyreen, that is associated with Pyreen (and in all the information we do have on Pyreen), if taken away from the Pyreen, would make as much sense as taking a quality of dragons, that is associated with dragons in Dark Sun and discarding it. I'm not quibbling about the nitty-gritty mechanics, because they have no place int he discussion at this level. Pyreen in 2e have always had a pretty high-powered druidic & psionic quality to them. The information we have (albeit, there's not all that much information) on Pyreen is that they innately have this druidic and psionic quality to them. The 3.5e mechanics do allow for this through tacking up the ECL of the race. As the mechanics are very easy to translate across, and everything from the 2e rules strongly supports the innate quality of the druidic & psionic abilities of Pyreen, then the solution, using Accam's Razor, would be to translate them accordingly. Of course, this will most likely raise them to a pretty darned high ECL, which is why I gave a low estimate of +15 (while I'd not be surprised if when it's all said and done, the Pyreen could be as high as 20 or more). I'd not expect very many racial Hit Dice for them, which could reflect their rather fragile physical natures, even if their magical & psionic powers are impressive.
I'm not saying that a pyreen would be a low level race, but just because they innately had the abilities of a 20th level druid and psion in 2e doesn't necessarily mean that it has to equate that way in 3e.
I'm saying that they should get a good portion of it. I'd actually be more in favor of having the ability to cast 7th level Druidic spells, and manifest 7th level Powers -- whatever those equate to in Druid and probably Psion levels. Taking a page from the Cerebrmancer class as a possible guide for figuring out their LA for such a thing, the two progressions could coincide when calculating it, resulting in (if memory serves) a LA increase of 14 for Druid, and 13 for Psion (so... let's say +3 LA for Druid, +3 for Psion, and then +11 for both together, so +17 LA just for having 7th level powers & spells). Tack on other abilities attributed to the race, and yea... an ECL of 21+ is easily within range. Make them able to add their levels in Druid and Psion to the power they get from their race, and presto, powerful Epic race. Of course, this is a guess based off of me just visualilzing how to tackle it, and probably isn't how Athas.org will definitively tackle the race.
I could go the non epic or the epic route with them I really could. I'm just playing devil's advocate and trying to give reasons why they don't have to be epic as well.
Yea, I understand. I'm just saying that the weight lays far greater towards the Epic route. This discussion, if memory serves, had been brought up before -- about the same time that Nyt had presented a non-epic version of the Pyreen race, with many, many posts in the thread about how it just was not right for the Pyreen, and how that race, more than any other, screams "Epic".
The Athasian Dragon, by definition, was possibly one of the first ever Epic PrC's created for D&D (considering it was in 2e). At the same time, the metamorphosis was pushed by a series of spells in the 2e world. Attempting to use the statement that one of those factors is more of the "Dragon" than the other, in either the 2e mechanics, or in the updated 3.5e mechanics, is silly, and somewhat flawed. The animal-life defiling ability is part of being a dragon. That just is what it is. Dragons in 2e had it, Dragons in 3e have it. Attempting to list the mechanical aspects of Dragons in the rules, which are rather mutually exclusive to Pyreen in every way, shape, and form, and then using the mutually exclusive mechanical qualities of one as an analogy to the other, is fallacious.
For the record, you were the that originally brought dragons into this not me. I just called you on it. :P ;)
I'm not suggestion that pyreen have no divine or psionic innate abilities, just that defaulting them to epic just because an out dated 2e monstrous compendium entry stated that they had the abilities of a 20th psion and druid doesn't seem right. By giving them some innate druid like abilities (i.e. wild empathy, trackless step, woodland stride, etc..) innate spell and psi- like abilities and some bonus power points you could catch the same feel, and at the same time, keep it non epic.
As I said before, this would by no means make them an ECL below 7, but nor should it be above a ECL 15 IMO.
IMO I'd like to keep the Pyreen as distant beings. Some of which do remember the ages of Athas, having lived through them and who retain the knowledge of life-shaping and using life-shaped creations. The passing on of such knowledge could explain why Rajaat was able to use and modify the Pristine Tower.
For the record, you were the that originally brought dragons into this not me. I just called you on it. :P ;)
I brought it up, yes. But I didn't use fallacious logic in my argument. Your "calling me on it" consisted of various broken logical arguments that muddied the discussion, and attempted to provide an analogy where there was no similarity, nor basis for said analogy. My analogy stands -- we use what there is from the 2e material, and try to keep the spirit, the "flavor" of the setting when the mechanics fail us. With the Pyreen, the mechanics don't fail us. In fact, they are rather quite clear.
I'm not suggestion that pyreen have no divine or psionic innate abilities, just that defaulting them to epic just because an out dated 2e monstrous compendium entry stated that they had the abilities of a 20th psion and druid doesn't seem right. By giving them some innate druid like abilities (i.e. wild empathy, trackless step, woodland stride, etc..) innate spell and psi- like abilities and some bonus power points you could catch the same feel, and at the same time, keep it non epic.
As I said before, this would by no means make them an ECL below 7, but nor should it be above a ECL 15 IMO.
And as I said, I don't see them as anything less than ECL 15. The Pyreen have more than just a few of the little "features" of those two classes -- they have the spells and powers to boot. Not merely spell-like or psi-like abilities, but the honest-to-god spells and powers themselves, along with the spell slots and power points to boot.
Besides, this argument is moot. The decision to make Pyreen an Epic race was made a long time ago by members of Athas.org. They are to be Epic, and quibbling about how they could potentially not be Epic for the Athas.org release is relatively fruitless.
I'd like to see the Pyreen kept as a non-player race with most of them as beings of epic power. Rather than a prestige class and if the were to be broken down wouldn't it be more useful/easier to use the rules from Savage Species?
IMO I'd like to keep the Pyreen as distant beings. Some of which do remember the ages of Athas, having lived through them and who retain the knowledge of life-shaping and using life-shaped creations. The passing on of such knowledge could explain why Rajaat was able to use and modify the Pristine Tower.
We can't use the Savage Species rules for the official conversion, as Savage Species is not covered under the OGL.
I brought it up, yes. But I didn't use fallacious logic in my argument. Your "calling me on it" consisted of various broken logical arguments that muddied the discussion, and attempted to provide an analogy where there was no similarity, nor basis for said analogy. My analogy stands -- we use what there is from the 2e material, and try to keep the spirit, the "flavor" of the setting when the mechanics fail us. With the Pyreen, the mechanics don't fail us. In fact, they are rather quite clear.
Your the one that made that parallel.
Besides, this argument is moot. The decision to make Pyreen an Epic race was made a long time ago by members of Athas.org. They are to be Epic, and quibbling about how they could potentially not be Epic for the Athas.org release is relatively fruitless.
Its not quibbling or fruitless for those that don't want an epic version. Hence why this whole thread came about. But hey, no worries.
I'd not think they were below an ECL of +15 or more if they were made non-epic anyhow. We're talking about a race that has innate high-level druidic and psionic abilities. A race that more or less is suited towards becoming the Druidic Advanced Beings (Spirits of the Land); a very, very long-lived race (or we could have it that most of them become Spirits of the Land, and thus might consider that a natural part of their life-cycle, becoming immortal beings linked to a specific region). But that also would do silly things like play into my personal take on that particular Advanced Being type.
Hmmm.. I agree with you, only I think they could have a very extended development process. At least along the line of elves in standard D&D. The idea that most of them become spirits of the land makes a lot of sense, and helps to give them a better defined place in the setting. I have to give it my full approval.
Hmmm.. I agree with you, only I think they could have a very extended development process. At least along the line of elves in standard D&D. The idea that most of them become spirits of the land makes a lot of sense, and helps to give them a better defined place in the setting. I have to give it my full approval.
I can't say I agree with that. I'm not saying that no pyreen would become a SotL, but to say most would is like saying most psion/preservers will become avangions one day.
Hmmm.. I agree with you, only I think they could have a very extended development process. At least along the line of elves in standard D&D. The idea that most of them become spirits of the land makes a lot of sense, and helps to give them a better defined place in the setting. I have to give it my full approval.
There are many doors openened to powerful druids, thus to pyreens, as to further advancement in the later part of their lives: AB spirit of the land transformation, ruvoka transformation, or casting an epic spell to turn yourself into a tree of life.
Imagination's the limit!
I can't say I agree with that. I'm not saying that no pyreen would become a SotL, but to say most would is like saying most psion/preservers will become avangions one day.
Heh heh, my turn to disagree!
Pyreens are innately highly druidic, from childhood, near or effectively immortal, except for Rajaat they are moraly and ethically pristine beings, their avowed aims are to restore and maintain balance.... so they make the best candidates for the spirit of the land transformation.
Heh heh, my turn to disagree!
Pyreens are innately druids, from childhood, near or effectively immortal, nearly all are moraly and ethically pristine beings, .... so they make the best candidates for the spirit of the land transformation.
Just because they would ideally make good SotLs doesn't mean all of them would aspire or seek to become one. Thats like saying all muls make good gladiators so all if not most will become one.
Just because they would ideally make good SotLs doesn't mean all of them would aspire or seek to become one. Thats like saying all muls make good gladiators so all if not most will become one.
Yes it is, and most Muls do become gladiators, because they are specifically bred to be galdiators. Rikard aside, the insidence of Muls born outside of the slave stables of merchant houses and nobles is basically nil. I understand what you are saying, but I must say you choose a bad example.
Still, I must disagree it's not just because they would be good at it. Its because that's what they are born to be pure and simple. Rajaat is one glaring exception.
Just because they would ideally make good SotLs doesn't mean all of them would aspire or seek to become one. Thats like saying all muls make good gladiators so all if not most will become one.
Ahh, there's the problem in our arguments: you say "seek to become" and I say "probably will become, weither they seek it".
There's a difference between the two. I just imagine that at one time, after thousands of years of life, a pyreen grows tired and nearly effortlessly becomes a spirit of the land AB so as to escape it all and start a totally new existence. I don't think a pyreen seeks for all those thousands of years to become a spirit of the land AB, just that they will probably become one eventually.
Ahh, there's the problem in our arguments: you say "seek to become" and I say "probably will become, weither they seek it".
There's a difference between the two. I just imagine that at one time, after thousands of years of life, a pyreen grows tired and nearly effortlessly becomes a spirit of the land AB so as to escape it all and start a totally new existence. I don't think a pyreen seeks for all those thousands of years to become a spirit of the land AB, just that they will probably become one eventually.
I just don't see it. I just don't think its a good idea to bottle neck them into becoming SotL. To each their own I guess.
Yes it is, and most Muls do become gladiators, because they are specifically bred to be galdiators. Rikard aside, the insidence of Muls born outside of the slave stables of merchant houses and nobles is basically nil. I understand what you are saying, but I must say you choose a bad example.
I have to disagree again. Mul's aren't just born in "captivity". There are many free dwarven villages as well as slave tribes. To say nil is a bit over kill don't you think?
Still, I must disagree it's not just because they would be good at it. Its because that's what they are born to be pure and simple. Rajaat is one glaring exception.
Not really. Thats just your personal take on it. Nothing backs that pyreen automaticlly become SotL at some point. There's nothing wrong with that theory at all, but its just that a "theory".
Scion of the Land (Ex)- The pyreen have a unique and soul deep connection to the land and the spirits that inhabit it. As such, they are inately able to channel the power that resides within Athas in the form of druidic magic. Pyreen have a druidic caster level equal to half their hit dice +3 (max 20th level). This caster level stacks with any class levels gained as a druid. A pyreen may exceed the cap of 20 caster levels only if they gain character levels as a druid. Pyreen do not gain any other the other class abilities of a druid unless they elect to advance within the druid class. So a pyreen with 3 racial hit dice and 10 levels as a druid would have a caster level of 19 (10 levels + 3 racial hd + (13/2)).
Scion of the Mind (Ex)- The mental make-up of the pyreen is unique in that they are born with fully developed psionic powers, and as they age and gain the experiences and knowledge of the world, their mental abilities become even more potent. All pyreen have an inate ability for psionics, and as such they gain powers and power points as a psion of half their hit dice (max 20th level). Manifester levels gained as a psion stack with this ability. A pyreen may exceed the cap of 20 manifester levels only if they gain character levels as a psion. Pyreen do not automatically gain a psionic discipline nor do they gain any of the other psion class features such as bonus feats, unless they choose to advanc as a psion. So using the same example as above, a pyreen with 3 racial hit dice and 10 druid levels would have a manifeste level of 6 ( (3 +10) / 2).
So using this example, if pyreen had 3 racial hit dice (just an example), and was a druid 10, they would have both the casting ability of a 19th level druid and the power of a 6th level psion, all for only 13 HD.
This idea is rough, but I see some realy promise with it in developing any creature with inborn power
I think it comes down whether the pyreen actually has "levels" in psion and druid classes or if they merely have "spell-like" abilities equal to a psion or druid of X level.
It only matters if the requirements for the AB spirit of land are different from 9th-level druid spells and 6th-level psionic powers. If the requirements are of druid and manifester levels, then the pyreen needs to get those since he only "casts and manifest spells as if he were a druid an psion of X level".
As for your opinion surrounding the bottlenecking of the pyreens, there's no need to mention that man, I'm sure there won't be official mention of the AB transformation in the pyreen write up. That's just Xlorep thinking outloud.
As for your opinion surrounding the bottlenecking of the pyreens, there's no need to mention that man, I'm sure there won't be official mention of the AB transformation in the pyreen write up. That's just Xlorep thinking outloud.
Then I have no issue if thats the case.
I just don't see it. I just don't think its a good idea to bottle neck them into becoming SotL. To each their own I guess.
I see it as something of a natural state of development for them. They can choose to not become SotL's, but most I'd figure have become that kind of Advanced Being -- the race is very suited for such a thing.
In 2E, their racial HD was 15-17, which is why I set their LA so high. The Leshay from Epic Level HB is definitely the closest comparison.
A race that's so tough certainly accounts for how one of their numbers can completely mess the world right up.
As for their druid levels, it doesn't say outright, but I think one of the features of their race is that they begin their druidic training from the time they're wee bodkins.
Certainly, it's a unique case for one of their number to be led astray and delve into the secrets of arcane magic and using the land itself to power it.
Also I don't recall reading anywhere if they can become spirits of the land, but the MC entry says they work very closely with them.
Also I don't recall reading anywhere if they can become spirits of the land, but the MC entry says they work very closely with them.
That makes curious to see what sort of ideas people can come up with for a Pyreen PrC. Emissary of the Spirits, or somesuch. Perhaps pyreens should even have the ability to see and talk to any spirit of the land, and maybe their role is much larger than becoming a SotL. I could certainly see them being the pillars of somesort of druidic network that looks after the planet as a whole.
Well if no one has any objections- I will work with this idea, and using the two abilities I wrote out above, I will attempt a version of the pyreen and post it here on the board- so maybe by the end of the weekend be on the look out.
Go for it, maybe it will stimulate me and get the brain juices flowing again. Besides, most of your work is good, maybe something great will come out of it.
I've got placement tests Saturday afternoon, but after that I'm completely free and going to try and work on some of ToA this weekend so we can get that beast done and move on.
Must....resist.....GTA....must.....resist........
But to the subject Pyreen as PCs....nah, not if you ask me. Mainly because of their racial benefits, and I don't think they were created in DS to be a playable race....I think they were thought as a "bump in the road" for evil players and defilers or as a helping hand for those who serve for the benefits of athas...
I have to agree with Master Ivan. I mean each time a characheter encounters (canonly speaking) a Pyreen, the pyreen is of great power (hence the decision to make them of epic level) Pyreens are a rebirth race or at least seem to have appeared in the same period. I dont recal them being able to reproduce. (Or is it ''not amoung themselves'' but a half-pyreen could be possible; 1 in a 1000% chance)
Also as a DM I would hate myself to alow a first level player to be already considered of epic level with the equivalence of a 15th level char.
To me Pyreens should be a mystery to players thus a DM's tool for their plot in their campaign.
I have to agree with Master Ivan. I mean each time a characheter encounters (canonly speaking) a Pyreen, the pyreen is of great power (hence the decision to make them of epic level) Pyreens are a rebirth race or at least seem to have appeared in the same period. I dont recal them being able to reproduce. (Or is it ''not amoung themselves'' but a half-pyreen could be possible; 1 in a 1000% chance)
I think you're confusing Villichi & Pyreen on the reproduction issue. Pyreen can reproduce, but they just aren't prone to do that very often. I mean, if they couldn't reproduce, where did Rajaat come from?
Also as a DM I would hate myself to alow a first level player to be already considered of epic level with the equivalence of a 15th level char.
That's why there is ECL's. I don't let ANYONE play a race where the ECL is higher than the level of the group. I do start my Dark Sun campaigns at a high enough level to permit Half-Giants & Thri-Kreen (for my games, that's a starting level of 4, not 1).
To me Pyreens should be a mystery to players thus a DM's tool for their plot in their campaign.
That's cool. I however think that the spirit of the 3.5e mechanics is that it should be possible for a player to be able to be a Pyreen, if the group is high enough level to permit such a thing.
That's cool. I however think that the spirit of the 3.5e mechanics is that it should be possible for a player to be able to be a Pyreen, if the group is high enough level to permit such a thing.
Except that supposed "spirit" doesn't allow a lot of things to be playable as PCs. There is a ton of it in the ELH too, Leshay being one of them.
Not saying that's what *I* or the monster bureau wants, just pulling a Sysane and playing devil's advocate. ;)
Except that supposed "spirit" doesn't allow a lot of things to be playable as PCs. There is a ton of it in the ELH too, Leshay being one of them.
Coulda sworn that Humanoids, most of the Fey, and a lot of others have full racial stat-blocks. Sure, not everything does, fortunately, that's what the Savage Species book is there for
Not saying that's what *I* or the monster bureau wants, just pulling a Sysane and playing devil's advocate. ;)
Coulda sworn that Humanoids, most of the Fey, and a lot of others have full racial stat-blocks. Sure, not everything does, fortunately, that's what the Savage Species book is there for
Just because it has a stat block and it is humanoid, doesn't mean it is playable.
If it's Advancement doesn't say "As Character Level", or it has an Advancement of "-" or "None", then it's not playable on an official level (that's the way I understand it anyways). Makes sense as to why you need a template to play a freaking Golem and a very weakened golem at that.
Now if people rule otherwise, great, but on an official level those are the rules.
The Leshay has no advancement whatsoever.
I personally would like to see it made playable (just means you have to be Epic level to play one), but we'll see.
Edited for stupid mistakes.
Except that supposed "spirit" doesn't allow a lot of things to be playable as PCs. There is a ton of it in the ELH too, Leshay being one of them.
Not saying that's what *I* or the monster bureau wants, just pulling a Sysane and playing devil's advocate. ;)
I'm such a ba$tard at times
I'm such a ba$tard at times
Heh, and I can be an epic level one sometimes.
;)
I know it may be early to start throwing around game mechanics- but I had a few ideas that I thought I would share.
There's at least one thing they have in common with the Leshay and that is the Elf Traits, though for the Pyreen it could be simply called Rebirth Traits and let them have a few racial traits from all of the rebirth races (halfling (with something similar to what the rhul-thuan have as well when it comes to lifeshaping, etc.), dwarf, elf, human, giant, etc.). Things like the mul, half-giant, and TK of course are not Rebirth races.
There's at least one thing they have in common with the Leshay and that is the Elf Traits, though for the Pyreen it could be simply called Rebirth Traits and let them have a few racial traits from all of the rebirth races (halfling (with something similar to what the rhul-thuan have as well when it comes to lifeshaping, etc.), dwarf, elf, human, giant, etc.). Things like the mul, half-giant, and TK of course are not Rebirth races.
I'd say they get darkvision as well. Or even better, tremor sense. They are after all tied and in tune with the nature and the earth.
Go for it, maybe it will stimulate me and get the brain juices flowing again. Besides, most of your work is good, maybe something great will come out of it.
What do yo mean MOST! ALL of my stuff is GREAT :D
I'd say they get darkvision as well. Or even better, tremor sense. They are after all tied and in tune with the nature and the earth.
Maybe not tremorsence (sp?) because it is limited to contact with the earth- and IMO there could the SotL that are more air and water linked. How about a modified version of Blindsight- like as long as they are in an area where there is living things (to exclude the Dead Lands) they can effectivey "see" the life within those things- undead would show up as voids as they are not part of the natural order, and cannot be surprised, flanked, ect.. this 'vision' would extend out to 240'. The would not have dark vision, but would have low light vision as good as an elves.
We can take a ganther from Libris Mortis for the "life vision" thing. Check out the Lifesense feat, page 28.
Albeit I'm of the opinion that pyreen should have normal vision, the man-whose-work-is-nearly-all-good has an idea here.
We can take a ganther from Libris Mortis for the "life vision" thing. Check out the Lifesense feat, page 28.
I have that book so I will check it out.
BTW- your sarcasm only spurs me on- UNBELIEVERS BEWARE, FOR MY WRATH IS MIGHTY AND MY WRITING IS WICKED COOL :D :P
BTW- your sarcasm only spurs me on- UNBELIEVERS BEWARE, FOR MY WRATH IS MIGHTY AND MY WRITING IS WICKED COOL :D :P
It's wicked something alright.
I have come up with some pretty cool ideas that i wanted to run by you guys though.
Perfect Health (Ex)- gain +20 hp, +4 to all Fortitude saves.
True-blood (Ex)- During the Rebirth, the pyreen emerged with a strange blend of the best qualities of the halflings and all the Rebirth races; the speed and senses of the elves, the endurance and resolve of the dwarves, the adaptability of humans, and so on. The pyreen may use any item that calls for a specific blood heritage due to the unique nature of their blood-line.
Hypercerebric Mind (Ex)- Another unique facet of the pyreen is their ability to learn and understand almost anything. They always treat all class skills as if they were class skills, reguardless of the normal skill lists for any class they are in. They also gain additional skill points just like a human does, +4 at first level and an additional +1 for every level they again. These bonus skill points are already figured into the skill totals above.
These are some a few other basic ideas and stuff I have kind of scetched out.
Hey Pen- I IMed you on yahoo last night on the off chance you were connected- if you got time check out the message and see if you can do it or not. Thanks
Well, time for bed.
For the other ability, I suggest finding another name. I don't claim to have the right one, but "Blooded", or "Blood of the Races", or some other more poetic attempt might be the way.
BTW- thanks for the e-mail. I will come in handy ;)
As for the pyreen power level- well you will have to wait- I do not want to set off a storm before the product is complete and people get a chance to look at the whole picture. :D
Pennarin said you may have some ideas on the pyreen so let your voice be heard brother.
Either that or I could send you an e-mail with my material when I am closer to completion, and I will toss it over to Nytcrawr too :D- so be ready Nyt, and then we can bounce around the first full draft and see what shakes out.
I feel some sort of "psychic theurge" mechanic in the vein of cerebermancer and mystic theurge to explain is needed for the pyreen's psionic and druid spellcasting ability. Just a thought
If those abilities are innate then no need for such a mechanic. ToA is riddled with monsters that have spellcasting or manifesting abilities like a wizard or cleric or druid or psion equal to their HD. I believe the Dark Spider is one of them.
If those abilities are innate then no need for such a mechanic. ToA is riddled with monsters that have spellcasting or manifesting abilities like a wizard or cleric or druid or psion equal to their HD. I believe the Dark Spider is one of them.
Yeah, the dark spiders, the high drik and the reggelid, just off the top of my head.
Yes I realize this guys. What I meant was a mechanic not an actual class write up but appreantly there's already one. Yesh! :P
/me drops a two-ton heavy thing on Sysane's head
:bounce:
/me drops a two-ton heavy thing on Sysane's head
A mekillot?
A mekillot?
Definately, I was looking to do serious damage, and that would definately do it.
I feel that with those abilities, it will keep the pyreen balanced but with a flavor simular to the 2e set up.
Do not fear- there is more to come.
Hense the two abilities I came up with before and no one commented on - the scion of the land and scion of the mind (the second one i going to be renamed). With these abilities, they get both psion and driud powers and spell like due to their innate nature and these abilities stack with the spellcasting and manifesting abilities of the druid and psion- Geez don't you guys read my posts :D :P
Guess I will have to re-read those abilities then, because that is not what I inferred from them.
Maybe you changed them after I initially read them and I haven't read the updates yet?
Or I'm just brain dead right now, which could be a possibility with all the things I've got going on, heh.
Scion of the Land (Ex)- The pyreen have a unique and soul deep connection to the land and the spirits that inhabit it. As such, they are inately able to channel the power that resides within Athas in the form of druidic magic. Pyreen have a druidic caster level equal to half their hit dice +3 (max 20th level). This caster level stacks with any class levels gained as a druid. A pyreen may exceed the cap of 20 caster levels only if they gain character levels as a druid. Pyreen do not gain any other the other class abilities of a druid unless they elect to advance within the druid class. So a pyreen with 3 racial hit dice and 10 levels as a druid would have a caster level of 19 (10 druid levels + 3 bonus + (13/2)).
Scion of the Mind (Ex)- The mental make-up of the pyreen is unique in that they are born with fully developed psionic powers, and as they age and gain the experiences and knowledge of the world, their mental abilities become even more potent. All pyreen have an inate ability for psionics, and as such they gain powers and power points as a psion of half their hit dice +1 (max 20th level). Manifester levels gained as a psion stack with this ability. A pyreen may exceed the cap of 20 manifester levels only if they gain character levels as a psion. Pyreen do not automatically gain a psionic discipline nor do they gain any of the other psion class features such as bonus feats, unless they choose to advanc as a psion. So using the same example as above, a pyreen with 3 racial hit dice and 10 druid levels would have a manifeste level of 7 ( ((3 +10) / 2) +1).
That makes curious to see what sort of ideas people can come up with for a Pyreen PrC. Emissary of the Spirits, or somesuch. Perhaps pyreens should even have the ability to see and talk to any spirit of the land, and maybe their role is much larger than becoming a SotL. I could certainly see them being the pillars of somesort of druidic network that looks after the planet as a whole.
Which creates another conundrum. In the Rule Book for the Revised and Expanded set, it said that Athasian druids are not an organized group.
In the Dragon PHB issue, it says "Druids are an organized group".
Personally, I'm going with the original material and saying what was printed in Dragon was a typo.
I definitely like what you've got for Scion of the Land and ditto for Of The Mind. The Druidic Caster level stuff looks good too.
However, seeing as how they have traits of all the races like elves, dwarves and halflings, what traits from each do you suppose they'd have?
I was thinking the elven resistances and the dwarven bonus to CON (Maybe similar to the Mul's FORT save bonus), but then again, that would probably increase the ECL as well. Thoughts?
I definitely like what you've got for Scion of the Land and ditto for Of The Mind. The Druidic Caster level stuff looks good too.
However, seeing as how they have traits of all the races like elves, dwarves and halflings, what traits from each do you suppose they'd have?
I was thinking the elven resistances and the dwarven bonus to CON (Maybe similar to the Mul's FORT save bonus), but then again, that would probably increase the ECL as well. Thoughts?
Thanks-
As for the traits- yes they will have some of things like the elven traits, but not the traits listed in the DS material like the resistance to heat and cold for elves. Those traits are things that developed AFTER the Rebirth. Most of it will come through in stat inceases, but I have some good things in mind- which is why I am going with a feature called Blood the Races.
They will not have features from any half-breed races (so muls are out of the question) or races like thri-kreen or half-giants, as one IMO was arounf before the Rebirth and the other was created by the SK's.
Some features will not be recognizible to current day Athasians due to the fact that they have never seen a gnome for instance, so they would not be able to pick out a feature that would be recognized as being 'gnomeish'.
While te druids may live in organised communities, aka Quarie, nothing forces them to do so. A kreen druid will most likely be a very solitary figure.
Except that Kreen have some problems with being solitary.
Except that Kreen have some problems with being solitary.
Unless they are druids ;) , then they are tied to their guarded lands and cannot travel freely with their pack. The connection to the spirit of the land and the creatures/plants therein helps to fill the void left by the frequent absense of their clutch. Remember kreen are quite flexible when it comes to forming new packs.
A common excuse for including a kreen in a party is to have them be orphaned (in this case it means that all their clutchmates were killed, rather than their parents) by some accident or attack. Then one or more of the party members happens along and the kreen bounds to them to fill the void left by his dead clutchmates.