Shadow Taint question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Shadow Taint question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Feb 02, 2006 19:48:57 Got some questions about the Shadow Templar prc and its interaction with other prcs that raise caster level. I uh, hope this isn't redundant . . .

Anyway, part of the Shadow Templar's class features is that their bodies become tainted as they grow in Shadow Templar level. It's implied that their increase in power comes with a price, and that is being tainted further byThe Black. So let's say a level 5 Templar of Andropinis takes two levels of Shadow Templar and is 10% tainted, and then takes five levels of Chasseur which confers the benefit of +1 level of existing arcane class four times(Chaseur levels 2-5). Does the Shadow Templar become more tainted when gaining caster levels from a prestige class other than Shadow Templar? My DM said "yes" to prevent my character from avoiding The Black's taint on his body. However, two of the Shadow Templar's special abilities are tied directly to the extent to which the Shadow Templar is tainted. Namely:

Shadow Taint: Any living creature of Int 3 or higher who sees the shadow taint must make a Will save of DC 10 + Shadow Templar class level or be shaken. If the shadow taint spreads during advancement of some other prestige class that confers caster levels, it would only logically follow that the DC of the Will save would also increase. However, this violates the basic rule that you don't gain all the benefits of a "base" class even if a prestige class advances your caster level and spells per day.

Shadow Form: At 10th level, the Shadow Templar's body is covered in shadow. This confers the ability to move up and down walls and across liquid surfaces as if they were ground, along with damage reduction 10/magic. The power's description implies that this is a result of spreading Shadow Taint. If I were a level 6 Shadow Templar and level 5 Chasseur(effective caster level: 10), would I gain the benefit of Shadow Form simply due to the shadow taint spreading on account increased caster level?

My DM didn't really know how to rule on all this, so I figured I'd ask here.

It seems like the logical outcomes could be:

a). Shadow taint only spreads with Shadow Templar level, not with levels in other prcs that raise caster level
b). Shadow taint spreads with Shadow Templar OR other prc levels so long as they raise caster levels and do not provide some other means of tapping into arcane energy(example: Cerulean). The spreading taint does improve the Shadow Taint Will save and does enable Shadow Form at caster level 10, regardless of the class spread.
c). Shadow taint spreads as per choice b, but confers no actual benefits except when Shadow Templar levels are taken.

Choice C seems to make no sense and exists only to penalize cheese-balls like me. Thoughts?
#2
Kamelion
Feb 03, 2006 0:14:44 I would say it was option a). The prestige class descriptions need to be a little more specific in this regard, but you can look at other prestige classes that give +1 caster level to see the precedence.

The chasseur writeup should have a section on Spells per Day. Following the model of other classes that give +1 caster level, it would read:
Spells per Day: When a new chasseur level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a chasseur, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
So, the +1 caster level only gives additional spells per day, and does not cause any other feature of the previous class(es) to increase, shadow taint included.
The shadow templar entry for Shadow Taint could probably do with being modified to read:
Shadow Taint (Ex): The Black taints the shadow templar. For every class level gained, 5% of her body becomes enveloped in shadow, starting with one of her hands.
It might also be appropriate to rule that the Shadow Taint of the shadow templar stacks with shadow taint granted by other classes, such as the shadow wizard, but that just my personal opinion.
Jon (who wrote the classes) is away this weekend, but will probably be able to clarify this further once he is back.
#3
zombiegleemax
Feb 03, 2006 1:46:43 Thanks, option a). was the one I figured on initially until my DM wanted to try to saddle my character with more than 10% shadow taint. That's pretty much in keeping with how prcs that raise caster level operate, as you indicated. The only sticky subject was that shadow taint is both a benefit and a penalty, and he wanted to make sure that I was as thoroughly penalized for using The Black as a source of spell power as possible. Naughty DM.

Maybe the common text under classes that give +1 caster level should read "He does not, however, gain any benefit or penalty a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting".
#4
zombiegleemax
Feb 03, 2006 11:47:52 I'd definitely say that under the RAW there would be no progression in the shadow taint when you take a "+1 caster lvl" PrC, but it's essentially impossible in-game to rationalize any such PrC wherein the character continues to draw upon greater and greater amounts of the Black but for some reason stops getting tainted. It seems like it makes the most sense to errata or house-rule it to where you get the penalty but not the benefits of increased shadow taint. After all, RAW aside, who would argue in-game that vanilla defiler-taint goes away just because a defiler is taking a PrC?
#5
Kamelion
Feb 03, 2006 12:27:55
I'd definitely say that under the RAW there would be no progression in the shadow taint when you take a "+1 caster lvl" PrC, but it's essentially impossible in-game to rationalize any such PrC wherein the character continues to draw upon greater and greater amounts of the Black but for some reason stops getting tainted. It seems like it makes the most sense to errata or house-rule it to where you get the penalty but not the benefits of increased shadow taint. After all, RAW aside, who would argue in-game that vanilla defiler-taint goes away just because a defiler is taking a PrC?

Nobody would argue that, just as nobody is arguing that the shadow taint "goes away". The argument is that the taint need not increase just because someone becomes a more skilled spell caster.

Taking the idea that the taint is representative of the character's deepening connection to the Black, note that there are also abilities such as shadow illusion, shadespeaker, shadow form (and the shadow jump powers of the shadow wizard) that can be rationalised as coming from this same developing connection. The connection to the Black (and accompanying taint) need not just be all about the spellcaster levels, and is quite justifiable from an in-game perspective.

Furthermore, the shadow taint is actually balanced against itself and there is no need to include it's negative aspects in order to balance out other abilities. Shadow taint can be used offensively to make your foes shaken, after all. If you require a character to take the negative aspects of the shadow taint power with each additional spellcaster level from another class, you are needlessly weakening that character from a mechanical perspective.
#6
megatherion
Feb 03, 2006 13:28:39 Second that. That's as if you said: Dragon Disciple progression continues even if you don't take more than one Dragon Disciple PrC class level. No, it doesn't. It stops if you take a level of fighter and continues if you take another level of the PrC. Same with dragon metamorphosis in DS (if we look at the Drag. Mag. rules). If you're not taking it's class you're not advancing/degrading on it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Feb 02, 2006 19:48:57	Got some questions about the Shadow Templar prc and its interaction with other prcs that raise caster level. I uh, hope this isn't redundant . . . Anyway, part of the Shadow Templar's class features is that their bodies become tainted as they grow in Shadow Templar level. It's implied that their increase in power comes with a price, and that is being tainted further byThe Black. So let's say a level 5 Templar of Andropinis takes two levels of Shadow Templar and is 10% tainted, and then takes five levels of Chasseur which confers the benefit of +1 level of existing arcane class four times(Chaseur levels 2-5). Does the Shadow Templar become more tainted when gaining caster levels from a prestige class other than Shadow Templar? My DM said "yes" to prevent my character from avoiding The Black's taint on his body. However, two of the Shadow Templar's special abilities are tied directly to the extent to which the Shadow Templar is tainted. Namely: Shadow Taint: Any living creature of Int 3 or higher who sees the shadow taint must make a Will save of DC 10 + Shadow Templar class level or be shaken. If the shadow taint spreads during advancement of some other prestige class that confers caster levels, it would only logically follow that the DC of the Will save would also increase. However, this violates the basic rule that you don't gain all the benefits of a "base" class even if a prestige class advances your caster level and spells per day. Shadow Form: At 10th level, the Shadow Templar's body is covered in shadow. This confers the ability to move up and down walls and across liquid surfaces as if they were ground, along with damage reduction 10/magic. The power's description implies that this is a result of spreading Shadow Taint. If I were a level 6 Shadow Templar and level 5 Chasseur(effective caster level: 10), would I gain the benefit of Shadow Form simply due to the shadow taint spreading on account increased caster level? My DM didn't really know how to rule on all this, so I figured I'd ask here. It seems like the logical outcomes could be: a). Shadow taint only spreads with Shadow Templar level, not with levels in other prcs that raise caster level b). Shadow taint spreads with Shadow Templar OR other prc levels so long as they raise caster levels and do not provide some other means of tapping into arcane energy(example: Cerulean). The spreading taint does improve the Shadow Taint Will save and does enable Shadow Form at caster level 10, regardless of the class spread. c). Shadow taint spreads as per choice b, but confers no actual benefits except when Shadow Templar levels are taken. Choice C seems to make no sense and exists only to penalize cheese-balls like me. Thoughts?
#2 Kamelion Feb 03, 2006 0:14:44	I would say it was option a). The prestige class descriptions need to be a little more specific in this regard, but you can look at other prestige classes that give +1 caster level to see the precedence. The chasseur writeup should have a section on Spells per Day. Following the model of other classes that give +1 caster level, it would read: Spells per Day: When a new chasseur level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a chasseur, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day. So, the +1 caster level only gives additional spells per day, and does not cause any other feature of the previous class(es) to increase, shadow taint included. The shadow templar entry for Shadow Taint could probably do with being modified to read: Shadow Taint (Ex): The Black taints the shadow templar. For every class level gained, 5% of her body becomes enveloped in shadow, starting with one of her hands. It might also be appropriate to rule that the Shadow Taint of the shadow templar stacks with shadow taint granted by other classes, such as the shadow wizard, but that just my personal opinion. Jon (who wrote the classes) is away this weekend, but will probably be able to clarify this further once he is back.
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 03, 2006 1:46:43	Thanks, option a). was the one I figured on initially until my DM wanted to try to saddle my character with more than 10% shadow taint. That's pretty much in keeping with how prcs that raise caster level operate, as you indicated. The only sticky subject was that shadow taint is both a benefit and a penalty, and he wanted to make sure that I was as thoroughly penalized for using The Black as a source of spell power as possible. Naughty DM. Maybe the common text under classes that give +1 caster level should read "He does not, however, gain any benefit or penalty a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting".
#4 zombiegleemax Feb 03, 2006 11:47:52	I'd definitely say that under the RAW there would be no progression in the shadow taint when you take a "+1 caster lvl" PrC, but it's essentially impossible in-game to rationalize any such PrC wherein the character continues to draw upon greater and greater amounts of the Black but for some reason stops getting tainted. It seems like it makes the most sense to errata or house-rule it to where you get the penalty but not the benefits of increased shadow taint. After all, RAW aside, who would argue in-game that vanilla defiler-taint goes away just because a defiler is taking a PrC?
#5 Kamelion Feb 03, 2006 12:27:55	I'd definitely say that under the RAW there would be no progression in the shadow taint when you take a "+1 caster lvl" PrC, but it's essentially impossible in-game to rationalize any such PrC wherein the character continues to draw upon greater and greater amounts of the Black but for some reason stops getting tainted. It seems like it makes the most sense to errata or house-rule it to where you get the penalty but not the benefits of increased shadow taint. After all, RAW aside, who would argue in-game that vanilla defiler-taint goes away just because a defiler is taking a PrC? Nobody would argue that, just as nobody is arguing that the shadow taint "goes away". The argument is that the taint need not increase just because someone becomes a more skilled spell caster. Taking the idea that the taint is representative of the character's deepening connection to the Black, note that there are also abilities such as shadow illusion, shadespeaker, shadow form (and the shadow jump powers of the shadow wizard) that can be rationalised as coming from this same developing connection. The connection to the Black (and accompanying taint) need not just be all about the spellcaster levels, and is quite justifiable from an in-game perspective. Furthermore, the shadow taint is actually balanced against itself and there is no need to include it's negative aspects in order to balance out other abilities. Shadow taint can be used offensively to make your foes shaken, after all. If you require a character to take the negative aspects of the shadow taint power with each additional spellcaster level from another class, you are needlessly weakening that character from a mechanical perspective.
#6 megatherion Feb 03, 2006 13:28:39	Second that. That's as if you said: Dragon Disciple progression continues even if you don't take more than one Dragon Disciple PrC class level. No, it doesn't. It stops if you take a level of fighter and continues if you take another level of the PrC. Same with dragon metamorphosis in DS (if we look at the Drag. Mag. rules). If you're not taking it's class you're not advancing/degrading on it.