Knighthood

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

havard

Feb 04, 2006 18:13:42		This is an old topic for many Mystara fans, but there are still some things here than bother me. Lets see:

* Most Knights in historical feudal societies were land owners. These correspont more to the Landed Lord of D&D.

* Knights as detailed in Classic D&D are wandering heroes. Historically there could also be landless knights, but this would be the exception rather than the norm.

* In order to be a knight you would have to be of noble blood or be knighted by a liege. This has really been downplayed in most RPG settings, although it probably wasnt as clear cut in history either as many people think.

* Many Mystaran countries are not feudal. Which countries are appropriate for any form of knighhood? What variations could exist?

I need to wrap my head around these factors before I can come to terms with how knighthood works in Mystara...

Håvard
#2

culture20

Feb 04, 2006 18:55:18
* In order to be a knight you would have to be of noble blood or be knighted by a liege. This has really been downplayed in most RPG settings, although it probably wasnt as clear cut in history either as many people think.

Historically, any knight can bestow knighthood upon another person by slapping the initiate on the nape of the neck (with a hand). At some point the flat of the sword-blade was used for ceremony, and the slap was reduced to a mere touch. Knighthood was often bestowed upon someone swearing fealty, but fealty isn't a necessity.
#3

johnbiles

Feb 04, 2006 21:38:19
This is an old topic for many Mystara fans, but there are still some things here than bother me. Lets see:

* Many Mystaran countries are not feudal. Which countries are appropriate for any form of knighhood? What variations could exist?

Håvard

Heldannic Knights, natch.

Karameikos.

Vestland (Maybe)

Norwold

Maybe some of the Isle of Dawn kingdoms.
#4

rhialto

Feb 04, 2006 21:59:36 		Karameikos
Ylaruam has (or shopuld have) something culturally equivalent, just don't ask me what they are called.
Ierendi could have almost anything. It seems a bit of an anarchy really.
Vestland is a possibility, though it would represent knighthood in its early days.
Thyatis definitely
Heldann too, along with Norwold
Sind probably has a cultural equivalent too
Many states on the Savage Coast have knights

Its worth noting too that the earliest knights weren't nobles, but the guy with the biggest sword.
#5

twin_campaigns

Feb 05, 2006 3:31:11 		There was some kind of "knight" status in the Republic of Rome. I don't know what it was like excactly. But a Thyatian version could be made after that model.
#6

rhialto

Feb 05, 2006 3:38:18 		Those Roman "knights" were equestes, and come from the kings era. They were so named because they were wealthy enough to bring their own horse to battle. At that time it was customary for Roman soldiers to furnish their own arms and armour, as specified by national standards. Citizens who couldn't furnish the basics probably didn't remain citizens much longer.

The equestes class pretty much died out as a military status when Rome switched to massive infantry legions, and even in its heyday, it didn't necessarily indicate any kind of chivalry or even a particular level of training; it was almost entirely wealth (and thus social class) based.

Since Thyatis is broadly based on late Roman/Byzantine traditions, equestes aren't really in character. however, there are numerous military orders within Thyatis that serve the role.
#7

agathokles

Feb 05, 2006 10:36:40
Karameikos
Ylaruam has (or shopuld have) something culturally equivalent, just don't ask me what they are called.
Ierendi could have almost anything. It seems a bit of an anarchy really.
Vestland is a possibility, though it would represent knighthood in its early days.
Thyatis definitely
Heldann too, along with Norwold
Sind probably has a cultural equivalent too
Many states on the Savage Coast have knights

Its worth noting too that the earliest knights weren't nobles, but the guy with the biggest sword.

Ylari "Knights" come in two flavours: the Faris, who are more like Paladins, and the mamluk-like Military Orders.

Ierendi has sort-of Knights, the Kia'i, those people who are selected to enter the Royal Tournament.

Sind has a warrior caste, which one could well consider the equivalent of a knightly order.

The Savage Coast has several Honorbound companies. Eusdrian Honorbounds are definitely like medieval knights.
#8

zombiegleemax

Feb 05, 2006 18:54:40
* Many Mystaran countries are not feudal. Which countries are appropriate for any form of knighhood? What variations could exist?

May be there is a bit of confusion between the "knight" character "class" (from Companion, as opposed to Paladin and Avenger; and from Gaz1 Karameikos, the "landed knight") and the noble title.
In my Mystara (AD&D 2 Ed based) knights are not a noble title and are a character class (based on Unearthed Arcana AD&D 1Ed) and they come from:
Karameikos (of course, the Grifon Order)
Ylaruam (Farisan are the Arabic knights/paladin/crusaders more related to church, while military orders like the Order of the Pick or the Order of the Arrow are more military knightly orders)
In Thyatis "Military Tribunes" could play a knight-like role.
In Alphatia I have the "Order of the Lakes" from Lakim in the Kingdom of Foresthome
In Slagovich there is the order of the "Knight of Halav" (red-steel armored)
Various Honorbound companies in Eusdria.
Heldann Freeholds are full of knights,as various lands of Norwold.

Obviously Mystara is so big... maybe I forgot some knightly order...
But i know for sure that it isimpossible to be a knight without a knightly order!
#9

zombiegleemax

Feb 06, 2006 6:27:29
This is an old topic for many Mystara fans, but there are still some things here than bother me. Lets see:

* Most Knights in historical feudal societies were land owners. These correspont more to the Landed Lord of D&D.

Agreed. Although allowing a Knight to own a Manor, and treating the knighthood as a minor landowning noble title rather than a wandering fighter has a lot of merit. Gives the character social position without the responsibility of being a full landowner. Less power, greater flexibility, different responsibilities.

* Knights as detailed in Classic D&D are wandering heroes. Historically there could also be landless knights, but this would be the exception rather than the norm.

There might be two sorts of knight; those who are powerful fighters, and those who just have the title. This fits in well with:

* In order to be a knight you would have to be of noble blood or be knighted by a liege. This has really been downplayed in most RPG settings, although it probably wasnt as clear cut in history either as many people think.

So there are those of noble blood (the minor sons of nobles who don't inherit the main title, etc.) and those who earn a knighthood through service.

* Many Mystaran countries are not feudal. Which countries are appropriate for any form of knighhood? What variations could exist?

I need to wrap my head around these factors before I can come to terms with how knighthood works in Mystara...

Ordinary (ish) knighthoods work well on the Isle of Dawn, Thyatis, Norwold, Karameikos and Heldann (sort of). Variant orders of warriors pledged to defend dominions would work well in Glantri; in Darokin a Knight might be a fighter who is pledged to a guild leader, etc.
#10

agathokles

Feb 06, 2006 6:35:01
* Many Mystaran countries are not feudal. Which countries are appropriate for any form of knighhood? What variations could exist?

Note that, depending on how you define a "knight", feudalism may or may not be a requisite.

For example, the Cimarron Sheriffs fulfill the basic requirements of Knights -- they are professional warriors, they serve the local ruler as wandering law officers as well as military leaders in wartime, and have special codes of conduct (the Warrior's Code, as Honorbound).
Yet, Cimarron is not really feudal, even though it's ruled by a Duke.

One more issue is that most Mystaran nations have standing armies, so the "landed knight" is not as common as in the RW middle ages.
With the notable exception of the Heldannic Knights, no Mystaran nation has an army based on knights (i.e., heavy cavalry that is only summoned when needed).
Also, many Mystaran nations have high urban population, from which they can draw militia in case of war (e.g., half of Karameikos' militia divisions come from Specularum and other coastal towns and villages), and domains tend to be quite large.

So, the Knight in Mystara is IMO more a wandering law officer who can, when needed, serve as leader of a militia, but is not really part of the army.
Even then, however, this role is usually reserved for warriors operating in non-civilized areas. As a nation's bureacracy becomes stronger, the Knight's role wanes, and the title is used to generically designed lower (non-landed) nobility (though it may still keep a connection with warrior ability).
#11

havard

Feb 06, 2006 9:00:01 		I just realized that we have several topics going on here. Nothing wrong with that, just trying to identify them:

1) Uses for the OD&D Fighter Option called Knight.

2) The different roles/positions of traditional medieval Knights.

3) Which countries in Mystara could have traditional medieval Knights?

4) Which countries in Mystara do not have the traditional knights, but something similar?

Now, I'll go through some of the comments in this thread based on the questions above:

1) Uses for the OD&D Fighter Option called Knight.
IMO, the Knight Fighter Option details only the Wandering Knight, a travelling lawman. He could either be of noble birth, or be knighted by a liege, but as stated in the RC he is not landholding. I dont know whether he could be part of a Knightly Order, but this would definately not be a prerequistite.

2) The different roles/positions of traditional medieval Knights.
I think there are three roles, a traditional knight may have:
a)The Wandering Lawman.
b)The Noble Landowner. Often referred to as a Landed Lord, this type of knight will also sometimes be called upon to deal with monsters or perform military services, and he is also a keeper of the law in the area surrounding his Keep. I suggest that most knights are given responsibility for an 4 mile hex assuming Barons control about a 24 mile hex. This means the average baron can control up to 6 Landowing Knights. Again these may be noble born or given the title and land by a Baron or higher nobility.
c)The Order serving Knight. You do not have to serve an Order to be a knight. In order to become a Knight within an order you have to be of noble blood. However it is also possible to to serve a Knightly order as a soldier or sergeant without being of noble birth. Most Knightly Orders are religious, such as the Knights of Vanya or the Knights of the Griffon. Such Knights cannot hold land, though they may be set to administer land that is owned by their Order. This is particularly true for Heldann. IMO, Aleena and Desmond Kelvin, although listed as members of the Order of the Griffon are not Knights of the Griffon, but rather supporting members.

3) Which countries in Mystara could have traditional medieval Knights?
Agathokles has a point that being a feudal country is not required in order for Knights to exist, but if we limit ourselves to the traditional medieval knight, I'd say it could be found in:
Karameikos (all three types)
Heldann (Order serving knights)
Thyatis (all three types)
Isle of Dawn countries (all three?)
Vestland (2 a and b)
Norwold (2 a and b)
Eusdria (2c, Honorbounds)

4)Which countries in Mystara do not have the traditional knights, but something similar?
Ylari "Knights" come in two flavours: the Faris, who are more like Paladins, and the mamluk-like Military Orders.

Ierendi: the Kia'i, those people who are selected to enter the Royal Tournament.

Sind: warrior caste, which one could well consider the equivalent of a knightly order.

The Savage Coast: has several Honorbound companies.

Ylaruam: Farisan are the Arabic knights/paladin/crusaders more related to church, while military orders like the Order of the Pick or the Order of the Arrow are more military knightly orders)

Slagovich: "Knight of Halav" (red-steel armored)

Cimarron: Sherrifs

Five Shires: Sherrifs

etc.

Did I leave anything out?
#12

zombiegleemax

Feb 06, 2006 9:32:32 		I read more than once that in your Vestland there is room for knights, for honorbounds and for knightly orders...
In my Vestland there is only room for barbarians and for berserkers. For rovers, for raiders, for rapers... for heroic vikings guys, horned guys who's only fear is to see the sky falling in their heads.
So, am I being pixieled? Is my Vestland all wrong?
Why is your Vestland so a civilized country? Did I miss something?
#13

agathokles

Feb 06, 2006 9:42:15
2) The different roles/positions of traditional medieval Knights.
I think there are three roles, a traditional knight may have:
a)The Wandering Lawman.
b)The Noble Landowner. Often referred to as a Landed Lord, this type of knight will also sometimes be called upon to deal with monsters or perform military services, and he is also a keeper of the law in the area surrounding his Keep. I suggest that most knights are given responsibility for an 4 mile hex assuming Barons control about a 24 mile hex. This means the average baron can control up to 6 Landowing Knights. Again these may be noble born or given the title and land by a Baron or higher nobility.

Note that, at least in Karameikos, Landed Knights are never born with that title -- at most, they start out as Landed Lords, and progress as Landed Knight when they show significant fighting ability.
Also, these Knights can control large territories, almost as large as baronies.

c)The Order serving Knight. You do not have to serve an Order to be a knight. In order to become a Knight within an order you have to be of noble blood. However it is also possible to to serve a Knightly order as a soldier or sergeant without being of noble birth. Most Knightly Orders are religious, such as the Knights of Vanya or the Knights of the Griffon. Such Knights cannot hold land, though they may be set to administer land that is owned by their Order. This is particularly true for Heldann. IMO, Aleena and Desmond Kelvin, although listed as members of the Order of the Griffon are not Knights of the Griffon, but rather supporting members.

Note that Aleena is not a landed noble, though she is the heir of Baron Halaran. Anyway, there's no reason why (high-ranking) Knights of the Griffon cannot be also landed nobles. This doesn't conflict with that specific order's code of conduct. Other orders, such as the HK, can have different regulations.

3) Which countries in Mystara could have traditional medieval Knights?
Agathokles has a point that being a feudal country is not required in order for Knights to exist, but if we limit ourselves to the traditional medieval knight, I'd say it could be found in:
Karameikos (all three types)
Heldann (Order serving knights)
Thyatis (all three types)
Isle of Dawn countries (all three?)
Vestland (2 a and b)
Norwold (2 a and b)
Eusdria (2c, Honorbounds)

Norwold doesn't seem to have landed knights. Actually, there's so much unsettled land that any noble would become a baron rather than a simple knight, and that few barons would find enough followers to create landed knights.

Honorbounds are never related with religious orders. They are in service of a nation, usually.

Thyatis is not very medieval. While soldiers are not unlikely to be given lands, this is more likely in border regions and colonies than in the mainland.

Slagovich: "Knight of Halav" (red-steel armored)

I forgot these. They are mid-way between 2a and 2c.
Also, Zvornik has the Order of the Dying Ember, an order of Knights (mostly Lupins) who are also in charge of fire watches.

Five Shires: Sherrifs

More than the Sherrifs (only 5 of them at any time), the Knight-Heroes (leaders of the Fangs, for example), serve as knight-likes, though they don't follow the typical regulations of human Knights.
#14

agathokles

Feb 06, 2006 9:48:44
Why is your Vestland so a civilized country? Did I miss something?

Vestland is the most modern of the three Northern Reaches nations.
In the old X modules, Vestland appears as a feudal nation, where clans have been replaced by Duchies.

Now, while the GAZ7 Vestland is not as advanced as X3 Vestland, it is likely that the feudal structure will be growing between 1000 AC and the end of WotI, probably under some influence from the Heldannic Knights.
#15

havard

Feb 06, 2006 11:04:54
Vestland is the most modern of the three Northern Reaches nations.
In the old X modules, Vestland appears as a feudal nation, where clans have been replaced by Duchies.

Now, while the GAZ7 Vestland is not as advanced as X3 Vestland, it is likely that the feudal structure will be growing between 1000 AC and the end of WotI, probably under some influence from the Heldannic Knights.

My comments on Vestland were based on the sources you mention. Good call on the Heldannic influence. That surely helps explain why Vestland is more 'modern' than its fellow norseman countries.

IMC however, Vestland is as barbaric as the others, with the exception of the self-styled Duke of Rhoona, In reality the Jarl of Runagard, whose fascination with forreign culture is a source of amusement and laughs for skalds and mead drinkers of his country, though noone dares mention this to his face.

Håvard