Anyone have anywhere I can go to these these bonuses?
They were also a remarkably misguided idea that's better off forgotten.
Witness the Iron Kingdoms or Valus.
Anyway, those bonus can be found in this accessory:
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/gh/gh-pg.htm
Since Olman & Touv are missing, here are their bonus (from The Scarlet Brotherhood FAQ):
Olman: +1 Dex, -1 Int
Touv: +1 Wis, -1 Str
because since 3e characterstics bonus are paired (ie,14 and 15 give +2) then any +1/-1 to ability will encourage min/maxing from players. If you have player more devoted to roleplay than numbercrunching, then you won't have to worry but since most player are, at various degree, min/maxer race disigner tend to avoid +1/-1 bonus ;)
Well, since those bonuses were for AD&D, I'd just suggest doubling the +/-...Thus Oeridian humans would gain a +2 to DEX and a -2 to WIS...
Kwint
because since 3e characterstics bonus are paired (ie,14 and 15 give +2) then any +1/-1 to ability will encourage min/maxing from players. If you have player more devoted to roleplay than numbercrunching, then you won't have to worry but since most player are, at various degree, min/maxer race disigner tend to avoid +1/-1 bonus ;)
Do you seriously believe that NOT having those bonus for humans discourage players from min/maxing their PC as it is?
I think on the contrary that it would be another argument in favor of humans rather than the latest unbalanced race published by WotC.
Just like you say, if you have role-players, it won't make a difference to them. If you have roll-players, then they will min/max their PC anyway.
The way I see it, it can't get worse.
Do you seriously believe that NOT having those bonus for humans discourage players from min/maxing their PC as it is?
I do agree with you, roll-players will always min/max but I do think +1/-1 bonuses will strentghed this behavior. I'd better try to use bonus skills and feats to describe the cultural differences between human races.
You must remember that most humans are no longer pure Flan, Suel, Oerid or anything else. The real exceptions are Suel Barbarians to the north, and athough contested some might say the Scarlet Brotherhood. With the SB however, some believe that they very long ago in-bred some non-Suel heritage into themselves but are so blinded in their faith otherwise, that they'd never see it (some GHer's this way too in regards to their choosen area of expertise).
So in Greyhawk terms, the human racial bonsus should be removed, as part Flan and part Oerid and part Amedio, and part Olven and so forth likely would be a difficult combination to determine (yes, even Olven, since you have to be "more" than 50% of something to be considered of that race).
However, it is good that someone did point the original poster to the site that he did. Although he says he has the Gazzeetter, that is a 3.0 product, but is so light on the rules that it's generic to any edition. And he also has the Adventure Begins, a 2nd edition product, so we have no real idea of the edition or campaign style he wishes to run. In any case, he wants the numbers.
Disagreeing with them is certainly fine, but you should always quantify your reasons for doing so (cause they scuk).
For eTools, a 3.0/3.5 product, I've created the human races. I've then created the major 2 race combinations. Of course, I've listed 3 or 4 race combinations, as like most of us are American, Scottish, German, Japanese, and French-Canandian (example given), but that's just too much for a Player to remember, and of course, too many variable for something like that to ever come into play (if they had some Suel, the SB's aren't going to consider the person a Suel, just a potential slave).
I hope this helps in considering you next move, Dungeon Master.
Be Well.
Theocrat Issak
But that's nit-picking. There shouldn't be bonuses and penalties to human racial ability scores at all. They're all humans. The "optional racial ability adjustments" try to turn the varied and mixed ethnicities of the Flanaess into crude and cartoonish stereotypes: the Suel are preternaturally clever but not likable, the Rhennee are strong brutes but hated, the Oeridians are dextrous but foolish (where did that come from?), the Flannae are tough but stupid (even the civilized Tenha), the Baklunish, as representatives of the exotic and mysterious West, are automatically wiser than their eastern equivalents and somehow less socially adept.
If your players are really role-players, they should be able to effectively play another culture without resorting to arbitrary, poorly justified numbers as crutches. The Baklunish respect learning; that's fine, I can play that. Giving them all a bonus to wisdom is clumsy and insulting.
I had started to build up my resources for a Greyhawk campaign right about the time that the 3.0 rules set came out iirc. I do in fact own the Players Guide to Greyhawk, but I can't for the life of me find it. Seems like everything else I own relating to Greyhawk and all my non-3.5 edition books are on one shelf in my warroom. Save this one book.
I hope I didn't lend it out at some point in the past. So, in preparation for stating a new campaign that was put on hold ages ago due to 1. job, 2. inheritance and 3. being a player in a really good campaign, I've been trying to get everything laid out again.
Knowing that those bonuses/rules aren't part of the OGL, I figure I can't ask for their duplication here. Feat or skill bonuses do make sense however in the framework of the new system, but I'm still somewhat partial to the ability bonuses in some cases if the character is going to be mostly pure bred. I expect some of the bonuses would be based on cultural norms and such.
Do any of the Greyhawk specific sites have some good bonuses for such racial differences?
However, if you were to break up the regions of the Flanaess by culture, I might be persuaded:
For example, the Rhizians distrust intellectual development but revere strength. So give them all a +2 to strength, -2 to wisdom, and a -2 to intelligence.
The Rovers of the Barrens do not have a great intellectual tradition, but they're unusually spiritual, so give them +2 to wisdom and -2 to intelligence.
The distant Lendorians are weird and mystical, but unused to war. So maybe +2 to wisdom and -2 to strength.
The Suel and Oerid cultural mix that predominates in the Flanaess is what defines the human base stats. No one born in Greyhawk, Dyvers, Keoland, Furyondy, the Great Kingdom, Geoff, Sterich, Stoink, Tenh, the Pale, or any similar group should get bonuses or penalties. The default human was designed with them in mind. The people of the Baklunish West have a different culture, but not so different to justify altering their ability scores; they still have cities, farms, ports, and the same mix of character classes as other humans.
The Paynims I can see as an exception. Maybe +2 to constitution and -2 to intelligence, just for a change.
The Olmans have an intellectual tradition, but not really a greater one than those of the Flanaess. So no ability adjustments for them.
The Amedian Suel live in the same environment as the Olman people, but they share the affinities of their northern barbarian cousins; worshipping strength and mistrusting the mind. +2 to strength, -2 to intelligence and wisdom.
No adjustments for the Touv, either, who are more or less civilized. They don't live the extreme lives that the barbarians do.
The Rhennee, alone of all human groups, had ability score adjustments in 1st edition; however, they were all bonuses. I'd ignore them.
The Scarlet Brotherhood practices semi-magical eugenics. Arguably they could get a bunch of bonuses, but it's probably better to make them buy a feat for this. You could have them (and maybe the Rhennee too) advance in the Human Paragon class.
Ok, Rip's on the right path.
I'm an American. I'm caucausion, my Father was the first Haywood in our family to be born in the USA. My Granny was from Germany and Grandad from Britian. On my mothers side, I have Frenh-Canadin and some other things. But I'm an American. Being that I'm an American, I have some values, beliefs and physical and mental strengths and weakness that other nationlities do not, even though they are of the Caucasion race.
So to do this right we must break this down. It must be broken down into the major Human races first. Which nations do these races have a majority stake in. Because I'm the Theocrat, I know about the Pale, so I'll use them as my example.
The Pale is mainly of Flan heritage. The Oerids came in and kicked a little butt and took over the place. So the Pale has a predominate Flan heritage and secondary Oerid heritage. As many conquering people do, they take slaves of the conquered. But lets assume this didn't happen. The Flan were different, dressed different and talked funny and worshipped false gods. This must be bred out of them. Thus the Oerid would take flan women, impregnate them and thus weed out this Flan heritage. Some of these mixed people would have relations with others, mixed, pure oerid and pure flan, as well as mixed with Bakluni, Suel and mixes of all of them.
However, we're saying that predominate races are Flan and Oerid. So the people of the Pale are of Flan and Oerid heritage. They're mixed. Do they call themselves, Flan, Oerdian, mixed or Palite? Hmm, that is part of the problem that we are experiencing here in the USA today. There are many African American's that have Caucasian parents and have been refered to as anoter race altogher. This is a touchy subject.
Trying not to blur the lines between fiction, fantasy and the harsh reality of the 21st C, we must then decide, what would the people of the Pale do?
They'd call themselves Flan or Oerid, based upon their upbringing. Yet, it's not that they're pure Flan and thus are predisposed to being weaker or dumber. Because they're really not Flan.
So to then give them the racial bonus of the Flan is just not true to their heritage. So you need to develop what things do their nationality offer them that separates them from the pack?
With the advent of 3.0/3.5 FEATS, are the way to go. Provide all people from a nation with a particular feat. People from the Pale are indoctrinated with the teaching of Pholtus and the One True Path (LN). Thus Skill Focus +3 to knowledge religion would be an applicable feat, and not have to worry about the nasty things called ability score modifiers.
But if you must (because Pholtus said so), use ability score modifiers based upon races - I still argue that you should do it based upon the nationality of the human. A Palish Flan should have +1 charisima, due to the fact that the Oerids thought that they were an attractive race (I read this somewhere...and I do like it [I could have written it and just read one of my own works so much that I now believe it as CANON!]) Or the Flan could be considered to be exceptionaly hardy folk, as the land is cold and white with snow, thus giving a +1 constitution bonus. A Palish Oerid on the other hand, was the conquering force 300yrs ago. But since then, they've lost some of their strength, and thus have become more wise and get a +1 to wisdom (and -1 to str for reasons above).
However, all this is conjecture. I'd prefer, again, if you must (becase now Pholtus is standing beside you) use human modifiers, do it based upon the history of the player. Give a +1 to whatever, and not a -1 to whatever. As I said, the Oerid were strong, but grew weaker. Well I'm playing a Fighter, and my Pappy Smurf was a Fighter and his GrandPappy Smurf was a General in the Prelatel Army. Both of their wives were hardy women, each boasting of 7 or more kids. Thus Strength does run in the family (and not wits, since 7 kids is just god awful to consider). Don't take the PC's wits away, just because his Pappy and GrandPappy couldn't keep their hands off their wives.
But, you should also take into argument, Rips statement about culture. But this has problems as well. The Tenha's were Flan but very civilized, while the above mentioned Flan of the Pale are not (great, now all the Civilized Palish Flan will be calling for me to be removed from the Sun of the Throne for lumping them in with the uncivilized cuth). This is a racial divide, a national divide and certainly a cultural divide. In some regions, I think this is very acceptable. For example, America has Boston and only a few hundred miles away, there's New York. Both American, and by that reasoning would have the exact same racial/national bonuses. But they certainly do not fit the same culture.
This may not be the case with the Pale, but in the Great Kingdom, Keoland, Nyrond and Furyondy, culture between the north and the south are vastily different. Esp. in Furyondy, as the northerns are/were constantly fighting the threats of Iuz, meanwhile southerns were lazily suckiling crab grass between their teeth.
And what about the people of Sterich. They've been forced out of their homes, were able to come back and then forced out again, only to return with the help of Keoish forces. Are they of Keoish heritage (like my father, is he of British/German heritage or American) if they were born in Keoland to Sterich parents?
So in the end, I'd say that you do not have the power, and the knowledge to understand what Pholtus is saying or why you'd even be hallucinating that he's standing next to you, when I as the Theocrat cannot make sense it (just a play to tie it all up, and in no way am I saying that you cannot decide for yourselves which way is best for you and your group and the style of game play that you wish to start or continue. All I can ask is that you do have a reasonable mixture of characters from differing nations, as having a disapproprite amount from any one nation (eg, Nyrond) would constitue an illegal act of discrimination and possibly segragation [following the themes provided by L.S. King & R. Parks]).
Ok, now that was fun, confusing and hard as HLeL to understand myself.
Be Well and Don't roll 3d6, use the points system, their all the same that way. 31 points.
Equally, I'm not sure how valid it is to say all Australians are innately big and tough based on their armed forces (who have a tendency to be the bigger, tougher individuals in any given population).
In game terms - I'd just spend more points in Str and Con on my Aussie Light Cav. rather than giving them an innate Str or Con bonus. It's a far better way of customising characters than applying dodgy racial or cultural bonuses.
P.
In game terms - I'd just spend more points in Str and Con on my Aussie Light Cav. rather than giving them an innate Str or Con bonus. It's a far better way of customising characters than applying dodgy racial or cultural bonuses.
That would be my preference.
I can't really see how culture would make Australians bigger and tougher as a general rule (unless the Aussies are practising infanticide by exposure to weed out sickly children like the Spartans did).
Diet, genetics, exercise, habits, etc. It's an easy combination of Phenotypic differences and Genotype.
Equally, I'm not sure how valid it is to say all Australians are innately big and tough based on their armed forces (who have a tendency to be the bigger, tougher individuals in any given population).
Based on the average available base of volunteers or conscripts.
Your average Aussie is no stronger than your average Turk on the genotypic level (and that's what the innate bonuses suggest).
Sure if he's been shearing sheep and busting rocks in the outback all his life - then he'll have a greater Str - so spend more points there.
Equally in the Flanaess, your Rhizian barbarian is likely to be stronger and tougher than your Scarlet Brotherhood administrator in Hesuel Ilshar or your Urnsian nobleman in Seltaran - so how useful is an innate Str bonus for Sueloise characters there? Even so, there'll be strong Urnsian nobles and weedy Rhizians.
Innate racial bonuses for humans are, in short, not that useful. If you want 'em in your game - then go ahead, but I don't think they're up to much.