Any feedback?
When rewarding players with items, or when equipping NPCs, pick psionic items instead of magical ones 9 out of 10 times, and when picking magic items have them be elemental in nature. The rest of the time, pick arcane items.
So 90% Psionic, 10% Divine Elemental/Arcane for treasure?
What about purchasing?
I would assume they are in limited production and therefore harder to find and/or more expensive to purchase...
Any feedback?
So 90% Psionic, 10% Divine Elemental/Arcane for treasure?
What about purchasing?
I would assume they are in limited production and therefore harder to find and/or more expensive to purchase...
Any feedback?
I actually downplay magic/psionic items in general. Your 90%/10% is a nice enough rule, however I also usually stick certain rules within the city-states, like having arcane magic items (including spellbooks) is an executable offense (with the item confiscated), Divine magic items are confiscated, and Psionic items with power level of 4 or more are confiscated -- for the city-states that still have sorcerer-kings. Successfully bribing the templar (or also in my campaigns, paladin) to overlook these things can potentially save you from these fates (well, paladins are a lot harder to bribe, because they are unswervingly loyal to their monarch, and can become judge, jury, and executioner if they feel the offense warrents it -- which happens more frequently than not).
I don't really follow any hard loot table/rules too much. I want magic & psionic items to really mean something in my campaigns. As such, even at level 20, my players will probably find getting ahold of a +1 magical anything to be an incredible find. Item makers in my games frequently get frustrated, as even the components for making magic items are frequently banned, and therefore only found on the black market (read: Bard's Quarter).
As far as time-period is concerned, if the item is from Green Age it'll of course be psionic or elemental-magic based, if it's from the Time of Magic there'll be arcane-magic items but not a lot, and items from the Cleansing Wars will have a high concentration of arcane magic items.
The reasoning for the latter is this: wars, especially world wars, tend to result in quick increases in both technology as well as production capabilities. Given that the path of the defiler is so much "faster" and easier than that of a preserver, psion or otherwise (historically, at least in 2nd ed.), and that the Champions had the benefit of organization, manpower, as well as being on the "winning side," would mean that they would have had the means to feed their army with more magic items, more quickly, than they would have been able to if they focused on psionic or elemental-based items. Of course most of these would be wands and potions, but given how long the Cleansing Wars lasted, and the fact that the different Champions had their own champions (Borys' wraiths, for instance), odds are they would have produced armor, weapons, and other repeated-use items as well.
During the reign of the Sorcerer-Kings most items will, as Pennarin said, probably be 90/10 - I do agree with him as far as that's concerned.
As for the other point, the location where the PCs are acquiring their items is going to be really, really important. If it's from ruins, then the contents will depend on the history of the ruins, and so (based on the above assumptions) dictate what items are found. If the items are in some creature's horde, it'll depend on where it's lair is (if it's ruins, see above) and what the creature's primary victims are (if it hunts traders or other adventuring types, see below).
If you are purchasing an item from someone rather than finding it, however, you're probably only going to be finding potion-fruits, power stones, wands, dorjes, and other minor items that could easily (and cheaply) be produced by a low-level cleric or psion - any other items are likely much to valueable for anyone to want to sell, and more importantly, those capable of acquiring (and keeping) them probably wouldn't benefit from trading the item for money anyway.
Don't forget that artifacts played a major role in the history of Athas - from a "treasure value per character level" standpoint, the artifacts that the Prism Pentad characters had would easily make up for a relatively small number of simpler magic/psionic items in a group. If you take this approach to your campaign, it makes this whole question a lot easier to handle - the group gets a couple artifacts, a handful of other really expensive items (staves, a really nice magical metal weapon, an expensive ring, etc.) to balance out the non-artifact-wielding characters, then money (cash or in the form of metal looted from ruins) which they can trade to elves, merchants, wandering clerics, psion academies, etc. for all the minor dorjes, potions, power stones, and divine wands they want, and the rest they use to comission more unique items (...which, given that it involves tracking down NPCs capable of this, gives the DM all sorts of mini-quests and side adventures to send the PCs on).
(Addendum: the above comments about purchasing items pretty much only applies to SK-free cities, and maybe merchant house forts/client villages - otherwise I agree with what X and Penn said about buying/selling)
Templar: They only produce items under direct orders from a high templar, high ranking royal defiler, or the SK, and then the request must at one point or another be authenticated by the SK. Sidestepping the SK is punishable by death, as the resources for creating these items come directly from city coffers.
Arcane: The only group producing arcane items is the VA. They boast several members, have some resources (very little, but more than any given individual), and are actively engaged in infiltration, extraction, battles. As such they do produce a few items, but they will be low powered due to low resources.
Psionics: Any psionic academy can produce items, although its for their own use. Bribing an academy is possible, and they'll create for you an item for a price, but its dangerous. Like Xlorep mentionned, even psionic items are frowned upon, so academy production towards selling is illegal and dangerous.
The meta gamers in my group were angry when I removed those items from the pregenerated modules and replaced them with minor trinkets like an obsidian braclet worth 5 cp.
One player actually quit, this was years ago, when he "caught" me doing this.
The only reason I include arcane magic in my campaign at all it because most of the players are not familiar with psionic items. And I agree with the 90/10 principle ratio. In fact, maybe 95/5 would be more in line.
The preserver, in my world, insisted he could find materials for magic items creation, and even though he was warned numerous times, continued to create arcane items inside Tyr. He did not attempt to cover his tracks, citing that Tyr is a free city.
An angry mob recently attacked his magic shop and destroyed everything. He barely escaped. I do not expect him to play that character for a while. :D
Out of curiosity, does any DS material go into any detail about elemental clerics and their organization? I was always under the impression that they kept themselves low-key in the city-states and without any official organization, helping where they could but otherwise avoiding the watchful eyes of the templarate, but I really have no idea where that idea came from.
Earth, Air, Fire, & Water is the most complete material there is about the clerics. They don't have an "organization" persay, some are wanderers, some try to help out in a city-state or other areas where people are at (like villages, etc.), while others remain as hermits (the latter group is most commonly seen at elemental shrines). They don't really have congregations of followers and the like usually.
Personally, I have them at odds with the templars within any city-state that still has a sorcerer-king. Beyond that there's the war between the paraelemental & elemental forces -- however I don't really play that out as an all-out war, but as various little things that reveal an opposition between the two forces (like silt clerics corrupting agriculture attempts, or fire clerics working to restore some semblance of the forests, etc.). Druids tend to get along with the elemental clerics in my campaigns, but like the clerics, the druids are also pretty disorganized. Both groups can have any number of directions their people can follow, and as such it's not unheardof to find a silt cleric who rescues travelers from the Sea, or a water cleric who enjoys drowning things & people.
I always thought it strange that while Dark Sun is essentially a psionic-based, all of the modules created by TSR were loaded with arcane magic items!
The meta gamers in my group were angry when I removed those items from the pregenerated modules and replaced them with minor trinkets like an obsidian braclet worth 5 cp.
One player actually quit, this was years ago, when he "caught" me doing this.
The only reason I include arcane magic in my campaign at all it because most of the players are not familiar with psionic items. And I agree with the 90/10 principle ratio. In fact, maybe 95/5 would be more in line.
The preserver, in my world, insisted he could find materials for magic items creation, and even though he was warned numerous times, continued to create arcane items inside Tyr. He did not attempt to cover his tracks, citing that Tyr is a free city.
An angry mob recently attacked his magic shop and destroyed everything. He barely escaped. I do not expect him to play that character for a while. :D
I like how you think.
I always thought it strange that while Dark Sun is essentially a psionic-based, all of the modules created by TSR were loaded with arcane magic items!
2E psionic items all were intelligent and had personalities and goals. I imagine it must have been daunting for anyone to create such items, why they chose magic items instead.
You forgot Druidic, but nice breakdown Penn.
Thanks
Druidic: Druids may be the one group, albeit they are nearly all individuals, amongst spellcasters who can produce the most items. They create them using natural materials, they have lots of time, and can invoke the aid of their spirit of the land without any trouble while in the wild. The only thing stoping them from making lots of items is the need: druids haven't much need for items, its not in their philosophy.
To quote part of the City State of Tyr's mention of Clerics:
"Clerics can be found in the employ of the Tyrian government, trading houses, and nobles. Some live hermetic exsistances in the remote corners of the Tyr valley. Other's can be found amoung the merchant's and craft's men of the city's markets. All are free to sell their services or tutor as they please."
:P
There are several sources in which reference to elemental temples existing within various city-states or talk of elemental cults is made including in the Ivory Triangle boxed set in the Nibenay book on page 4 and the Gulg book on page 10, and on page 66 of the City State of Tyr book. I believe there are also several places where they talk about clerics in the Prism Pentad, including an a bemussed mention of a "Mud" temple.
To quote part of the City State of Tyr's mention of Clerics:
"Clerics can be found in the employ of the Tyrian government, trading houses, and nobles. Some live hermetic exsistances in the remote corners of the Tyr valley. Other's can be found amoung the merchant's and craft's men of the city's markets. All are free to sell their services or tutor as they please."
:P
Yea, yea yea. I however don't think that the government, which let's face it, is comprised of priests devoted to a sorcerer-king, would be completely tolerant of alternative religions (I just don't see templars as the "tolerant" types). I'm not saying that clerics are banned outright, just that the templars make strong suggestions to the clerics that they are not wanted. Druids also (of course, I usually have it that druids generally have a disdain and loathing for city-states anyway, so it's not hard for the templars to scare off the druids). It could be that clerics deal with an inordinant amount of red tape and beurocracy within a city-state (courtesy of the templars), it could be that templars tax clerics and their shrines more than normal, it could be that some templars become disruptive influences around the clerics in order to upset them (and hopefully get the cleric to do something stupid like retaliate). You know, piddly little things that gives the distinct impression to clerics (or druids) that they just aren't wanted there.
Sure, ostensibly, clerics are welcome. But in actuality, clerics don't really find the governments for sorcerer-king controlled city-states to be all that welcoming. Exceptions exist, of course, and a sorcerer-king could demand his templars play nicely with the clerics and druids, but really... that's some meticulous micromanagement to deal with that the sorcerer-king could better spend the time doing other, more important tasks (like umm.... taking a bath).
or maybe my memory is just playing tricks on me... it's been known to happen...
Understandably the earth and water clerics are far more accepted within most cities. Their services are in fact very valuable: overseeing the plowing of fields and growing of crops, the maintainance and protection of wells and natural aquifers, tending to the injured and suffering.
The need for air to move freely and seek freedom would be at odds with the templars' goals of an orderly controled society and fire's destructive tendancies might come into conflict with the prosperity of the city.
Unlike the city-states, many nomadic tribes might find leadership or inspiration in the form of an Air or Fire cleric. Smaller villages might be so dependant on an elements mercy or favor that a temple is at the center of the villages power structure, as it is with the Sun temple for the dwarves of Kled.
In my own game, I have it that there is one important temple and two shrines in the village of Lastport. The important temple is of course the Silt Temple, and the two shrines are to wind and water respectively. You do the math as to why.
Understandably the earth and water clerics are far more accepted within most cities. Their services are in fact very valuable: overseeing the plowing of fields and growing of crops, the maintainance and protection of wells and natural aquifers, tending to the injured and suffering.
Actually, that right there is probably the #1 reason why I'd always assumed they weren't wanted in the city-states: the S-Ks make money off of the sale of water (IIRC there's one scene in the Prism Pentad where Aegis or someone is watching the people at the city well as they pay the templars to fill up there ceramic jugs), and they could also be making money off of healing (they may not have a lot of ability with it but they do have some), etc. In the end, it's a matter of "does the city make money, or does someone else?" And in the case of an evil Sorcerer-King, that's a no-brainer.
In Tyr and other free cities/towns/etc., things would definitely be different, and I have no doubt that clerics, despite the dislike they'd gain from the templarate, would still operate within the cities. It's more a matter of how they do it - openly and right in front of the templars faces, or on a small scale, interacting with people one-on-one and then moving on to the next individual or family that can use their assistance.
Bah, what was I thinking asking for book quotes, anyway - they're contradictory half the time, and when they're not half of the people on the forum don't agree with what they say regardless. ;)
Actually, that right there is probably the #1 reason why I'd always assumed they weren't wanted in the city-states: the S-Ks make money off of the sale of water (IIRC there's one scene in the Prism Pentad where Aegis or someone is watching the people at the city well as they pay the templars to fill up there ceramic jugs), and they could also be making money off of healing (they may not have a lot of ability with it but they do have some), etc. In the end, it's a matter of "does the city make money, or does someone else?" And in the case of an evil Sorcerer-King, that's a no-brainer.
Well sure, they want to make money
, but they can still make money off of the water of the water clerics and the healing services of all clerics. Besides the clerics need to make money too, the water clerics aren't just going to give free water away they'll charge for it too. Then the templars will tax them, either directly in water or in profits. The templars have better things to do with their spells most of the time then heal the injured and make water/make plants grow. In Tyr and other free cities/towns/etc., things would definitely be different, and I have no doubt that clerics, despite the dislike they'd gain from the templarate, would still operate within the cities. It's more a matter of how they do it - openly and right in front of the templars faces, or on a small scale, interacting with people one-on-one and then moving on to the next individual or family that can use their assistance.
Bah, what was I thinking asking for book quotes, anyway - they're contradictory half the time, and when they're not half of the people on the forum don't agree with what they say regardless. ;)
Well sure the position of clerics would be even more important within a free city, then within one ruled by a SK, but as long as the clerics are managed and under control it would be foolish for a SK to disreguard them and the value of their services. Honestly there are quite a few things that Clerics can do, but Templars simply can't. Remember, they do have a very limited spell selection.
Well sure, they want to make money
Well sure the position of clerics would be even more important within a free city, then within one ruled by a SK, but as long as the clerics are managed and under control it would be foolish for a SK to disreguard them and the value of their services. Honestly there are quite a few things that Clerics can do, but Templars simply can't. Remember, they do have a very limited spell selection.
Hmm...that brings up an interesting concept, especially given that I've got all my 2005 tax forms sitting next to me - perhaps it'd be worth coming up with some "services & tax tables" for the different city states, listing how much one can expect certain magical services to cost, how much of a cut the city takes, what is outright allowed or disallowed, etc. Each of the city-states has a different enough feel that it'd be unrealistic to make any across-the-board statements regarding how it'd work, such as how "magical services" are listed in the DMG (or whatever book the costs are in), but by taking into account things such as "how divine" an S-K is, the overall economy, etc. it might be an interesting thought excercise. It could even tie in directly with the discussion at hand - give info about what sort of arcane/psionic/druidic/elemental items are available, their legality, etc...think Dune Traders, but covering the fantastical/supernatural aspects of the Athasian economy.
(Ugh I need to stop this train of thought...as usual it's getting way too in-depth)
Actually, that right there is probably the #1 reason why I'd always assumed they weren't wanted in the city-states: the S-Ks make money off of the sale of water (IIRC there's one scene in the Prism Pentad where Aegis or someone is watching the people at the city well as they pay the templars to fill up there ceramic jugs), and they could also be making money off of healing (they may not have a lot of ability with it but they do have some), etc. In the end, it's a matter of "does the city make money, or does someone else?" And in the case of an evil Sorcerer-King, that's a no-brainer.
An idea is that some city-states could go to the length of introducing a specific clerical license and/or tax on cleric spellcasting services. Then there would be black market clerics, who have either lost their "cleric license" for some reason, or simply seek to avoid taxes.
An idea is that some city-states could go to the length of introducing a specific clerical license and/or tax on cleric spellcasting services. Then there would be black market clerics, who have either lost their "cleric license" for some reason, or simply seek to avoid taxes.
:D good one.
An idea is that some city-states could go to the length of introducing a specific clerical license and/or tax on cleric spellcasting services. Then there would be black market clerics, who have either lost their "cleric license" for some reason, or simply seek to avoid taxes.
Interesting idea. I like it.
"I'm sorry sir, but you're under arrest for the purchase of a clerical license - literacy is, after all, illegal. No, no sir - you just puchased a clerical license, not a cleric-al license; they're two different things. The only book-keeping you'll be doing is out in the fields under the cruel heat of the sun. Yes, sir, I realize you won't actually be keeping books out there...I was just trying to be witty. Sir, please follow these nice guards to the slave pits. NEXT!"
:heehee
Since 3rd's "streamlining" of it's magic/psionic item system, you could just give them a +1 Bone longsword, and not have to tell them it was made by arcane magic, or divine magic. Or even a potion of Fly, while most of the time this is an arcane spell, a Cleric (most likely of Air) with the travel domain has this spell on his spell list. (and I use the term "potion' loosley, I understand it could be enchanted fruit, or even a small glass shard that is broken to gain the effects.) Magical Items dont have to have an arcane or divine background if you dont want them too, and there are so many Psionic powers that mimic magic, it's unbelievable.
One problem I see with psionic items: there are ridicilously few of them compared to magic ones. If you count the ones in the XPH, the number of interesting ones is rather pathetic. Sure, you can let some magical items be psionic ones instead...but this, of course, leads to problems on its own (psions not having the appropriate power, psionic characters getting more power while arcanists lose power etc).
Thats a good point. Do you here that everyone? We need more original Psionic items!
Yes Rhul, we do indeed need more original Psychic Items! :D
Anyway- as for original psionic items- well lets see what you got! Talking about needing them is great but you should bring something to the table to get it rolling. :D
Hopefully there will be some good items in Complete Psionic
That's true, there will probably be a decent number of them in that book! We can only cross our fingers hopeing that they won't suck however.
Well the Equipment Guide should be out sometime this King's Age... maybe!
Yeah, should be. And the authors hope that what you'll find inside, you'll find interesting :D.
You can't reason that treasure is based on GP when starting wealth is in CP, otherwise why adventure after 2nd level? One could live quite comfortable retiring and becoming a trader with 900Gp or essentially 90,000CP.
The reason I stated treating metal as a special material is that it's very costly to obtain and counts for DR vs many creatures.
Obsidian +1 longsword would then be 2,315CP (2000 enhancement + 300 MC + 15 LS) while a Iron +1 longsword would be 3,800CP (2000 for enhancement + 1500 for Iron L.S. + 300 MC). Otherwise a +1 longsword would have to wait for 15th+ (200,000CP), not very promising for a would be hero in a system that depends on Enhanced Items to survive.
Finally, here's another question. How do you handle Mastercrafting? Is it done as CP or GP? I'd reason that it should be based on CP or it is really costly for such a minor benefit.
Nevermind there lack of existance! :P
That's really problematic though. Since wealth and treasure are based on CP, that becomes horribly skewed when you handout magic items.
Totally agree, I see no reason to make magical items based on GP.
Finally, here's another question. How do you handle Mastercrafting? Is it done as CP or GP? I'd reason that it should be based on CP or it is really costly for such a minor benefit.
Same here, agree
Yeah- all costs to create items are gold.
That's why it's so hard to understand :P
That's why it's so hard to understand :P
Ooops- my bad- I corrected it to read ceramic. Thanks huntercc
The reason I stated treating metal as a special material is that it's very costly to obtain and counts for DR vs many creatures.
Obsidian +1 longsword would then be 2,315CP (2000 enhancement + 300 MC + 15 LS) while a Iron +1 longsword would be 3,800CP (2000 for enhancement + 1500 for Iron L.S. + 300 MC). Otherwise a +1 longsword would have to wait for 15th+ (200,000CP), not very promising for a would be hero in a system that depends on Enhanced Items to survive.
That's how I do it, if I'm getting nit-picky about prices at least (which I normally don't...my PCs never have remotely the value of items they should for their level), although I never thought of it as being a "special material" - just that the base cost of the item, not counting the magical enhancements or masterwork value, was in GP rather than CP.
I think there's even a statement in the DS3 book about how magic item costs are converted to CP just like everything else (...although I may be mistaken), so maybe this should just be clarified a little more in a future revision...although like Kal said, I really don't see where the problem is either.
Rhul, that's an awfully tough quota to meet! ;)
Ooops- my bad- I corrected it to read ceramic. Thanks huntercc
I don't say much, so when I do say something I try to make it count :D
I don't say much, so when I do say something I try to make it count :D
Hey huntercc- I have been meaning to ask you where your icon comes from- I would like to see the who picture.
Back on topic- IMC I have given my players a 'speical' item- it is linked with their character and their past in some meaningful way. Now I have not given out a lot of loot most of the time but each of their speical items gain in power as the characters do- I used the Weapons of Legacy book to kind of design them. I would post them but both the players and myself like keeping the powers of their items yet to be discovered secret- I untroduce the new powers with dreams or things that they remember maybe reading about the item in one characters case. Here is a general discription of them and the powers they already have- I am doing this from memory so it may not be exact and they will gain more power as the PCs advance in levels.
Sun Lord's Gift- flaming obsidian dagger +1, keen. It is heavier and a bit larger then normal and does d6 damage. It can also be used like a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell and functions as a divine focus for sun clerics spell casting. This dagger is always warm to the touch and has a crystal in the hilt that sparkles even in the darkest of nights.
Silver Guard of Meric- dark wood breastplate +1. User can cast protection from arrows 1/day, it also increases the wearers speed by +10 feet and grants a +1 deflection bonus to AC. The wood if this armor is graced with silver gilding that takes the form of leaves and vines flowing over the wood- as grows in power, it seems as though more silver leaves and vines appear.
Twin Edge- steel heartpick +1, heartfinding. This weapon also has he ability to weapon shift into a punch dagger, a talid, and a morning star. The weapon also grants he wielder a +1 luck bonus to all saves. Twin Edge has a thick oaken haft with hundreds of carvings on it. The steel head of the weapon has its pick blade sharpened on both sides and looks as clean and new as the day it was forged. The metal is also heavely engraved, but the carvings changed from day to day, excep for six ruins that read 'Giver of Life' when read one way and 'Taker of Life' when read the other way.
Hey huntercc- I have been meaning to ask you where your icon comes from- I would like to see the who picture.
Good question - I wouldn't mind seeing the whole thing either! It's just one of the millions of icons you can choose from if you go into the settings to change your avatar.
As for those weapons you posted, they all sound great, and I like the way they get more powerful as the players gain in levels. Is the Weapons of Legacy book easy to apply to a DS campaign, or does it take some work?
Good question - I wouldn't mind seeing the whole thing either! It's just one of the millions of icons you can choose from if you go into the settings to change your avatar.
As for those weapons you posted, they all sound great, and I like the way they get more powerful as the players gain in levels. Is the Weapons of Legacy book easy to apply to a DS campaign, or does it take some work?
It's from Sandstorm in the monster section; that guy's a worm rider (but I don't remember the name of the worm).
It's from Sandstorm in the monster section; that guy's a worm rider (but I don't remember the name of the worm).
Oh- I have that book- I thought is was familiar.
As for the weapons- I personally think it is a cool concept- the players have an item that they are attached to and it grows as they do- like heroes in stories always had a weapon that was as well known as they were kinda.
As for applying it- I do it my own way really. I do not apply the penalties to the PCs because they are receiving the weapon and power increases as part of their 'treasure' they should be getting- but instead of coin they get coolness added to their weapon or item.
I use the abilities and stuff in the book as a kind of guide, but also take things from other books- like the heartfinder is from the Arms and Equipment Guide 3.0 book and the weapon shift idea came from a spell of the same name in the Spell Compendium.