In my realm I found him to be a great reaccuring villian, if by some chance a party could defeat him, he came back into being the next day. He had enough magic to challenge mid-level wizards, and enough could stand toe to toe with fighter types. When using his other abilites such as traveling through shadows, he could wreck parties with hit and run tatics. He was CE after all.
But what happened to him during the chaos war, and after? Now there is a Tower in his realm! A thing like that would not escape his notice. Did a Dragon Lord take him out and if so which one and how? did he leave with the Gods, and if so did he come back with them?
What ever happened to this great figure in DL lore? He was a constant reminder of what could happen when a champion of light fell into darkness. As a former Rose knight, he was the ultimate pervision. And his followers fell with him, no "I was just following orders" plea for them.
If anyone knows what actually happened please tell me, if there is no offical answer, I might just have to write one myself. HA HA HA. (Like I have the time for that)
Thank you
Lord Soth "No."
Mina "Die."
Lord Soth dead.
***********************Spoilers***********************
The is taken from the website Chamber of Astinus. A website I highly recommend.
"Mina petitioned him for aid during the War of Souls, however he refused, had his cursed removed and was destroyed for his audacity."
Many feel, including myself, that it was an anti-climatic death for him. I wish W&H would bring him back in some other way but it probably won't happen.
Oggie
OGAM_engineer, What book is that info in ??
Dragons of a Vanished Moon, book 3 of the War of Souls. It's my favorite chapter in the book.
Cheers,
Cam
Well as we know now from Amber & Iron, it did take a god to kill him. So it wasn't like it was some Joe Blow that did him in.
Dragons of a Vanished Moon, book 3 of the War of Souls. It's my favorite chapter in the book.
Cheers,
Cam
I agree. I thought it was a rather fitting, yet touching way to end the character. Better than some of the other major characters' deaths, IMO.
Oggie
Soth went out like a whinny lovesick schoolboy. The story changed what made Soth a Death Knight. He was no longer this fearsome intimidating undead creation, now he was just a body waiting for death. It wasn't that Takhisis's goal was no longer the same as Soth's. It was that Soth no longer had 'any' goal. He wanted to die. Sorry miss weis, (let the flames grow high) but the Ravenloft novels did soth more credit than Dragons of a Vanished Moon, he didn't even fight her for crying out loud, he went quietly into the dark. At least in the RL novels he was Lord Soth-Death Knight.
Just after taking Kitiara, he dissapeares into the Mists to a land called Barovia. There, he gets into a fight with the Local Dark Lord, (a bad*ss named Count Strauhd, [4 fighter, 16 Necro Human Vampire with age benefits]), and some local gypsies. Soth gets cursed to never again set eyes on his own land, and later walks to the newly formed land, Sithicus, a twist of Soth's own land and past.
In Sithicus, he becomes the Dark Lord, (a being both bound and tied to the land). He establishes his own law, castle, leadership, etc. . . and is refered to as the Black Rose. He has two main servants, a Dwarf Were-badger who is cruel and murderous, and a gypsy traitor with unending ambition and no soul. For the most part, he leaves the rule up to them, while he attempts to free himself and return to Krynn. He creates some magical mirrors which show him his true past, but also allow him to interact with it and change it. After years of this, he begins to regret the things he has done, and looks for redemption by travelling to these mirror lands and acting noble and heroic. Eventually he begins to believe that he is that person.
Unfortionatly, the Dark Powers brought Soth here to punish him for being such a cool guy, um um, I mean Death Knight. And by bypassing that, he is beginning to undo Sithicus. A group of adventurers destroy the mirrors, and Soth gets lost in feeling nothing at all and severe depression. He sees himself sort of like a fallen hero, but it's still twisted. He sits on his throne for weeks and months at a time, doing nothing in self pity.
His two servants, seperatly begin to scheme to take control. The dwarf discovers a magical node that allows him to kow any dark secret a person tries to hide, and also allows him to seperate and control a persons shadow. The Gypsy begins to consort with Soth's rivals in secret, to destroy him. Soth is awaken from his depression on the night that their plans almost go off but turn out to go partially wrong. Every living being in Sithicus loses their shadow, which form some strange entity. Rivals join together to destroy the Black Rose of Sithicus, and it ends with Soth throwing the Gypsy over the rail into a bottomless pit.
Soth goes down to help another gypsy and after that encounters the real ghost of his wife and now grown up son. They forgive him, and the then, the shadow(s) attack, missing Soth, but toppling the entire d*mn castle on him. . .
Whoosh, he's back on Krynn in time for the War of Souls.
Whossh, he dies.
The story does continue.
Back In Ravenloft, the dwarf believes he's now the Dark Lord, but intruth, there is another, secret Dark Lord. The gypsy girl is alive in the pit, and p*ss*d.
And she still schemes. But, when her evil schemes involve hurting the innocent, sometimes something very strange occures. Out of nowhere, a single white knight appeares out of thin air, saying nothing. He saves the people, looks at them behind a full helm, and walks away, silently. No one knows who he is or what strange land he comes from. None have ever heard him speak, but he is know for an ancient greatsword and the foreign antique armor he wears. The thing is, the armor has a rose and sword motiff, almost as if in dirrect opposition to the Black Rose's tyranny. . .
Dun Dun Dun!!!
The Ravenloft books weren't what if...?'s. They actually happened, pretty much as Beckett said. Those books were awsome. :D
If you're going by Dragonlance canon, and the word of Margaret and Tracy, then the Soth Ravenloft books are 'What if?' books. If you like those books, great! I actually liked the first one too (never read the second one). However, in the world of Dragonlance, Lord Soth never left Krynn.
Personally I believe that the Ravenloft books were great and really fit Lord Soth. His death was horrible in my opinion.. it didn't really make sense to me. He didn't have to fight in the War of the Lance, but chose so of his own will. And then Mina demands he fight for her in the War of the Souls? Just doesn't make sense. It seriously just seems they needed to find someone powerful enough to kill him off and a reason to do it. Enter Mina. I actually feel like they just wanted to kill him off to end the debate of Ravenloft forever, which if it was, was kind of childish. But then again I don't know this for sure, just my opinion, so I may be dead wrong. It happens.
I also get tired of characters constantly being redeemed. It seems like anymore all the cool characters that ppl love need to be redeemed. Raistlin, Lord Soth, Mina maybe?, etc. Its almost like they feel bad that they made an evil person who everyone loves, so they redeem them and then all the fans are like.. now they are even better! Maybe some ppl feel guilty for liking a character who does very evil things and just want to like the person, so they want them redeemed. I dunno, seems kind of stupid to me. I see arguments all the time how ppl can't believe that ppl think KoN are cool, Arakias is cool, etc.. because they are evil. "It glorifies evil" or something along those lines. Seen a few posters on Dragonlance.com who are like..and its amazing.
Personally I like there being cool bad guys who just arent dumb villains who know nothing and are doomed to fail, etc. I don't want to see every cool evil guy come out to be redeemed. You can be neat and evil..it actually adds diversity in my opinion.
Personally I like there being cool bad guys who just arent dumb villains who know nothing and are doomed to fail, etc. I don't want to see every cool evil guy come out to be redeemed. You can be neat and evil..it actually adds diversity in my opinion.
You're just saying that because all of your players choose evil characters.
And Dragonlance canon = WOTC canon at the moment, so Whyndam's not just talking out of left field here. Sovereign Press works very closely with the folks at WOTC regarding the property.
Cheers,
Cam
I love the old Knights of Takhisis. I think they were one of the best additions to Dragonlance personally. I thought they added so much flavor to Dragonlance. But now, they are just another run of the mill thug group, which there are plenty of anyways. I would love to see it rectified and they go back to being at least a lot like the old KoT, if not exactly like them. But it seems like some ppl have a huge problem with evil being cool or neat. As if it shouldnt be allowed and all evil people should be done, have whats coming to them, etc. But then again, I've argued how I didn't like the Evil turns opun itself thing either. I don't mind that its a thing that usually happens, but I don't like the thought of it *has* to happen, it takes a lot of the suspense out of most conflicts I see. But again, this is my personal opinion =).
I realize that WoTC works very close with SP and am very glad. Honestly I've loved all the gaming books and most of the novels lately, except a few that just irk me so. But what does WoTC have to say with the whole Lord Soth matter? I mean do they even care to comment? Or have they said its up to SP and Weiss? This I don't know, I'm sure others do. I guess I just assumed since the Lord Soth Ravenloft books have been written, WoTC automatically considers it canon. But then again, how many Dragonlance books have been written that we don't honor as canon? Many..
Maybe I'm biased also because I love the Lord Soth Ravenloft books heh. I really thought they were well written, great books. Also I think the fact Lord Soth went to Ravenloft only enhanced the character personally. And, as I said before, the death just seemed so...weird. It just didn't fit in my opinion.
I am still not a fan of Raistlin redeeming..I thought it just ruined the character to have him keep coming back. Lord Soth didn't need to be redeemed anyways. I know somewhere I've seen some authors post that they wanted the new age to have their own personalities, so they didn't want old characters around. I can understand this sentiment. But why couldn't Lord Soth just have been lost to obscurity for awhile? Thats what happened for like 300 years after the Cataclysm. I think that would have been a great way to keep him for future use, but not anytime soon. Just put some kind of hold on authors that they can't use him for like 10 or so years our time. The timeline on Krynn would have advanced way past that and eventually he would have made a great appearance again and been just as cool. But then again, thats my wish, and maybe others dont like it that way.
For a more traditional version of what happens, watch the end of Alexander.
So, if your characters still find evil cool, it's because they haven't had an underling try to assassinate them to climb the ladder. A superior hasn't sought to protect his position by putting them in the ground. Do villagers flee from their approach, cower in fear of their shadows, and generally refuse to have anything to do with them?
Check out the Ravenloft stuff. That nice list of things that inspire Powers Checks should give you an idea about what the general milleau is like.
On to Soth. I despise the Ravenloft junk on him, for the simple reason that it really dilutes who he is. In DL he is a man cursed by his own deeds to eternal suffering, including living through the events that brought him to that point via nightly 'concerts'. His reclamation from this is by an almost Buddhist recognition of how desire, passion and lack of self discipline has led to his suffering. This is a much better redemption scene than Vader's for instance. In RL, he merely dabbles in ruling a land not his, which he knows isn't his. He doesn't have to listen to the factual retelling of his deeds, but rather a creative one (not much repetition there). And to top it all of, he roams around in mirrors playing in his old, pre-cursed life without having to worry about any of the above. Just what part of that sounds "Godly Curse" to you?
Was Raistlin redeemed? Honestly, I doubt it--he merely saw that winning would make him king of an ash hill. But Soth seems to have actually grown as a character. The only way for him to stick around would be to treat him as a fly in amber--boring high-powered bad guy #28. Oh, and as a high-powered individual he probably couldn't be kept under wraps for long. If he isn't taking on the world, the world (in the form of a questing knight or 50) would take him on.
Oggie
My PC's group is evil. But I've seen them make donations to the Mishakel temple, help beggers, sacrifice themselves for the fellow PC members in their group, do deeds that helped out more than just themselves, etc. But then I've seen them turn around and rob ppl, destroy things, kill ppl, etc. They are evil because they do what they want.
I have had the Black Robe be attacked by other Black Robes in order to "get ahead" in rank or whatever. My PC loved it. He would sit there and try to figure out ways to get on the Conclae, forge deals, and deal with people who would try to take him down. He constantly knew that he had to watch his back and would have things happen to him, but the trade-offs were worth it to his PC. Just like in real life some people think the trade-offs of doing something horrible is worth whatever recourse they would get, if ever.
And yes for your information, I have send countless things after them in retaliation for things that they do. They sometimes come out ahead, sometimes don't. But thats for any PC or adventurer. They know they have a few more things gunning for them since they are evil..not only do they have good ppl after them but evil as well! But they relish the freedom to literally be able to do whatever they want while they play D&D. They dont go around doing messed up things and sick thing, constantly discribing messed up things. But they have the freedom to kill a NPC if they dont like what they hear, or if they see a magical item to steal, etc. We all enjoy the games and I wouldnt change any of it =)
You can spout about evil always turning on itself, etc..and thats cool. If thats how you play it fine, cool man. As I've said, I've seen my group of evil PC's constantly fight for eachother and help eachother out, while still doing evil things as a group. Now they may have allies who turn on them, but them as a group? Nope havent seen it yet and I can guarantee it wont happen =).
I never did say that "evil" was cool. I just mentioned that a character that totally evil, can still have a certain coolness factor to them and be a neat character. I never meant to insinuate that I thought the things they did was neat..I dont. But characters are characters. Remember in real life there is so much grey its not even funny. Also remember that evil is mainly an opinion, what one person thinks is evil may not be the same as someone else.
Again, to not be totally off topic, I loved how Lord Soth was shown in Ravenloft and thought it helped him grow as a character. Personally I've always found his 'curse' kind of funny anyways. I mean Paladine cursed him but then gave him all that power to be able to kill ppl? Doesnt sound like as much of a curse as what it could have been. Don't get me wrong..I dont think it'd be a fun time at all.. but he was given the power to basically be able to kill a lot of ppl..even worshippers of Paladine. Doesnt really make sense why you would do that as a God heh.
Again his death didnt sit well with me. I'd love to know why he wasnt required to be in the War of the Lance.. but all of a sudden Takhisis was mad because he wouldnt fight alongside Mina? Just doesnt make much sense to *me*. Others may have loved it. It justs eems like too many ppl want evil characters to be "redeemed" so that they can think they are cool without ppl jumping on their backs and saying stuff like "You cant like him, he does evil things!!"
Honestly arguing about evil probably isnt a good thing, many ppl have done it throughout many of the boards. As I said before, everyone has their opionions, just wanted to at least state some of my thoughts. It wasnt mean to be negative to you at all, and it may come off like that, guess I maybe went into defensive mode =)
And Soth was in the Lance, True_Blue. Or at least those parts that coincided with his own interests.
And your group sounds more like the stock CN adventurer group than evil, btw.
Oggie
Believe what you want, but the OFFICIAL stance on this matter, according to the people who control Dragonlance for and with Wizards of the Coast (and this includes some people who work for WotC), is that Lord Soth was NEVER in Ravenloft. Regardless of whether you liked the Soth Ravenloft novels or not (which I've already stated that I did like the first one) and regardless of what is in the old Ravenloft game material, ALL of that material is treated by those who currently have control of Dragonlance as 'What if?' material. It's fun speculation, but that's where it ends.
Now, this is not to say that in your DL or Ravenloft games that Lord Soth can't have done all of the things that were in the novels and game material. Just don't expect those novels or that game material to be supported, or even talked about, in any new DL novels or game material. As far as the people who are writing all of the new material are concerned, NONE OF IT EVER HAPPENED!
I don't mean to sound snippy or high and mighty. I really don't. I apologize if I come across that way.
---
Sean Everette
Director of Sales and Marketing/Managing Editor
Sovereign Press, Inc.
I have had LE pc's and npc's who where as bold and noble as a LG paladine. I have also had NE's that would murder their own mother for a silver piece, and CE's who were spreaders of anarchy and murder, only 1 CE pc, and he did not last long.
I find many people feel powerful evil groups can only be CE and NE, and forget the with the organization, training and dicipline, a LE group such as the orignal KoT, can be just as powerfull and respected as a traditional good knightly group.
A lawful group is just a little more cruel in the enforcment of laws, like beheadings for pickpockets and flogging for foul language in public.
As for a history aspect, many fascist governments could be seend as LE. And while it could be said that after enough time all evil groups turn upon themselves, mnay good groups also turn upon themselves.
I would like to thank Whyndam for the official stance, and for pointing out that every DM has final say of what is going on in her/his realm. I am sad to learn that Lord Soth is not going to be put in print anymore.
As for Raistlin, I always felt that his redemtion was earned, the whole DL underling theme of love conquring all, and love for sibling can be as strong as love for spouse.
I would like to thank everybody for theri postings, and hope that this intresting conversation will still continue.
I am sad to learn that Lord Soth is not going to be put in print anymore.
Will he be in Dark Chronicles (I think it's called Lost Chronicles now)?
Will he be in Dark Chronicles (I think it's called Lost Chronicles now)?
He will. Once the first installment of The Dark Chronicles is published later this year, you can read and find out for yourself.
He will. Once the first installment of The Dark Chronicles is published later this year, you can read and find out for yourself.
Ohhh I can't wait for this
The story does continue.
Back In Ravenloft, the dwarf believes he's now the Dark Lord, but intruth, there is another, secret Dark Lord. The gypsy girl is alive in the pit, and p*ss*d.
And she still schemes. But, when her evil schemes involve hurting the innocent, sometimes something very strange occures. Out of nowhere, a single white knight appeares out of thin air, saying nothing. He saves the people, looks at them behind a full helm, and walks away, silently. No one knows who he is or what strange land he comes from. None have ever heard him speak, but he is know for an ancient greatsword and the foreign antique armor he wears. The thing is, the armor has a rose and sword motiff, almost as if in dirrect opposition to the Black Rose's tyranny. . .
Dun Dun Dun!!!
I've read about the stuff up to what I've quoted above. In what book does the stuff above happen? The only books in Ravenloft dealing with Soth (that I was aware of) were 'Knight of the Black Rose' and 'Spectre of the Black Rose'- is there another one floating around out there that deals with Sithicus after Soth left? 'Spectre of the Black Rose' ended with the Vistani girl falling in the ravine around Nedragaard Keep, Soth leaving for Krynn, and Azrael becoming the new Darklord of SithicusIIRC.
I'm actually considering bringing Soth back in my game. The idea I'm playing around with is maybe the mists of Ravenloft drew him back in before he was destroyed. Dunno, just a thought.
Okay... this is my last post on the subject.
Believe what you want, but the OFFICIAL stance on this matter, according to the people who control Dragonlance for and with Wizards of the Coast (and this includes some people who work for WotC), is that Lord Soth was NEVER in Ravenloft. Regardless of whether you liked the Soth Ravenloft novels or not (which I've already stated that I did like the first one) and regardless of what is in the old Ravenloft game material, ALL of that material is treated by those who currently have control of Dragonlance as 'What if?' material. It's fun speculation, but that's where it ends.
Now, this is not to say that in your DL or Ravenloft games that Lord Soth can't have done all of the things that were in the novels and game material. Just don't expect those novels or that game material to be supported, or even talked about, in any new DL novels or game material. As far as the people who are writing all of the new material are concerned, NONE OF IT EVER HAPPENED!
I don't mean to sound snippy or high and mighty. I really don't. I apologize if I come across that way.
---
Sean Everette
Director of Sales and Marketing/Managing Editor
Sovereign Press, Inc.
See, the problem is that at one time he officially WAS in Ravenloft, now he's officially not. That's unnecessarily confusing. James Lowder provided a satisfactory explanation at the end of Spectre, allowing Soth to return to Krynn mere moments after he had left. I understand current WOTC policy is to not allow different campaign settings to reference each other, but there could simply be some sort of off-hand comment explaining it (for example, in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, Vecna's time in Ravenloft is referred to as being "trapped in an extradimensional prison"), instead of saying "that never happened." Saying it never happened is just needlessly contradictory and terribly unimaginative to boot.
And for the record, I really don't care what Weis and Hickman have said on it--they may have created the character, but they don't own him...and they really have little right to complain about the treatment a character they didn't own after they left TSR in 1986. For them to complain because it's not what they would have done is moot, as they weren't there to do anything with him at the time--he was an available character--if they wanted complete control of the character they shouldn't have left (not that I blame them for leaving, Lorraine Williams was making it hell for everyone).
Anyway, I just felt like stating my position, as a fan of Soth character, that this whole thing is ridiculous and could have been resolved much better than it was.
If he just popped into Ravenloft, smacked some people around and left, that would be one thing, but his time there had a little more impact. Unless the official stance is that Sithicus was never formed either. And if so, how was it that Azrael was able to form his own domain, especially since he had free reign to go into other domains which is verboten for dark lords.
Since extradimensional spaces can have different rules than the material plane, they could have arranged an easy explanation (and satisfatory) to the matter.
Since Soth is a famous villain, it's natural that the answer "he was never there" let many people angry, Wizards could care a bit more to make everything ok to the fans...
I think that something about "time crossing" could do, that crazy kender made so many changes, hehehe. Could this "never been there" thing be a reflex of this timeline alterations?
Who knows?
;)
If Ravenloft is your campaign setting of choice, then you can assume Soth was the death knight for whom Sithicus was named. Everything happens as it did in the RL novels about Soth.
If Dragonlance is your campaign setting of choice, then you can assume Soth never went to Ravenloft. This is the default for those of us writing for Dragonlance now.
You can have both be true, because neither has to have any actual influence over the other.
Cheers,
Cam
Could this "never been there" thing be a reflex of this timeline alterations?
I think it's a simple matter of recognizing that mixing settings is a Bad Idea (tm).
I've read about the stuff up to what I've quoted above. In what book does the stuff above happen? The only books in Ravenloft dealing with Soth (that I was aware of) were 'Knight of the Black Rose' and 'Spectre of the Black Rose'- is there another one floating around out there that deals with Sithicus after Soth left? 'Spectre of the Black Rose' ended with the Vistani girl falling in the ravine around Nedragaard Keep, Soth leaving for Krynn, and Azrael becoming the new Darklord of SithicusIIRC.
The game supplement Ravenloft Gazetteer IV describes the fate of Sithicus post-Soth. He's never mentioned by name, referred to as "the Black Rose", and aside from a couple of references to Nuitari, neither is any other Krynnish element.
I personally think Soth was stolen from Krynn-2, on which the original modules took place, while most of the stuff published since then has been on Krynn-1, the Krynn of the novels. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
Non-Canonical. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
Non-Canonical. :-)
You know you love it, too. I think it's what keeps you around!
Cheers,
Cam
The game supplement Ravenloft Gazetteer IV describes the fate of Sithicus post-Soth. He's never mentioned by name, referred to as "the Black Rose", and aside from a couple of references to Nuitari, neither is any other Krynnish element.
Do they no longer have some very intresting Kender in Sithicus? I remember them being mentioned in the Ravenloft campaign setting for 3.0.And all must agree that Kender are truly Krynnish.
Do they no longer have some very intresting Kender in Sithicus? I remember them being mentioned in the Ravenloft campaign setting for 3.0.And all must agree that Kender are truly Krynnish.
They are still there, they are called the Bitterkinder, and identified as halfling vampires.
To me it seems the Soth at the end of Legends and the Soth in the War of Souls have two very different outlooks on unlife.
I think the RL v. DL would have less steam if DL presented an explanation of how Soth got from point A to point B. Without a DL tale, I believe many readers are left confused about Soth's reasons for his decision in WoS. Meanwhile the Ravenloft stories present an explanation, whether one accepts it or not, for how Soth gained a new perspective on his place in the universe.
Cheers,
Cam
The game supplement Ravenloft Gazetteer IV describes the fate of Sithicus post-Soth. He's never mentioned by name, referred to as "the Black Rose", and aside from a couple of references to Nuitari, neither is any other Krynnish element.
I personally think Soth was stolen from Krynn-2, on which the original modules took place, while most of the stuff published since then has been on Krynn-1, the Krynn of the novels. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
Non-Canonical. :-)
Thanks, that clears up some of the confusion I had.
It's a fairly simple thing.
If Ravenloft is your campaign setting of choice, then you can assume Soth was the death knight for whom Sithicus was named. Everything happens as it did in the RL novels about Soth.
If Dragonlance is your campaign setting of choice, then you can assume Soth never went to Ravenloft. This is the default for those of us writing for Dragonlance now.
You can have both be true, because neither has to have any actual influence over the other.
Cheers,
Cam
It's cool, just part of me kinda wants them to not be mutually exclusive. I prefer to play in the DL world, but am really getting into the old RL stories. Besides, I don't have enough people interested in wanting to play RL even if I were to try and learn the fear effects tables, curses, etc.
Regardless, some overlap between the 2 realms doesn't bother me, and is something I'd actually kind of like to see, hence why the mutual exclusivity kinda irks me a little.Does Forgotten Realms acknowledge Hazlik's appearance in RL as a darklord (former red wizard of Thay)? We've touched on Vecna's time in RL, Tristessa is a former drow from FR, there was a mercenary knight from Krynn that became a minor dark lord as well. I guess the problem was in 'borrowing' a more iconic character like Soth. If he wasn't such an icon, it wouldn't have been a problem. And I agree, stories covering what happened to Soth during the gods' absense would be kinda nice, even if only a short story or 2 in an upcoming anthology of sorts. I'm sure some stories could be generated rather easily, especially with the gods' return to Krynn.
Does Forgotten Realms acknowledge Hazlik's appearance in RL as a darklord (former red wizard of Thay)? We've touched on Vecna's time in RL, Tristessa is a former drow from FR, there was a mercenary knight from Krynn that became a minor dark lord as well. I guess the problem was in 'borrowing' a more iconic character like Soth.
I honestly don't think those other characters register in their "home" settings, and thus they're never going to come up. As you say, Soth had a little more name recognition.
Cheers,
Cam
Does Forgotten Realms acknowledge Hazlik's appearance in RL as a darklord (former red wizard of Thay)? We've touched on Vecna's time in RL, Tristessa is a former drow from FR, there was a mercenary knight from Krynn that became a minor dark lord as well. I guess the problem was in 'borrowing' a more iconic character like Soth. If he wasn't such an icon, it wouldn't have been a problem.
Actually, Hazlik, Tristessa (who's never been from the Realms, and who isn't even an ex-drow any more) and Vlad Drakov were all Ravenloft originals. The only characters that Ravenloft borrowed from other product lines are Soth, Gondegal, Vecna, and Kas. Of those, Vecna blasted out, Kas is a vestige (see the new Tome of Magic for what a vestige is, and DRAGON #341 for Kas specifically), and Gondegal's still around at last report.
Soth was more iconic than Gondegal, true, but he's also from a setting that tends to set itself apart from the D&D cosmos than the Realms or Greyhawk ever did. I think that's more of why his time in Ravenloft has been erased from DL continuity.
That said, I still hold out for the 'alternate Krynns' idea. "A Stone's Throw Away" strongly hints that at least one Krynn out there has some connection to the D&D cosmos, and it may be the least painful way to try and sort out the continuity errors. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
Actually, Hazlik, Tristessa (who's never been from the Realms, and who isn't even an ex-drow any more) and Vlad Drakov were all Ravenloft originals. The only characters that Ravenloft borrowed from other product lines are Soth, Gondegal, Vecna, and Kas. Of those, Vecna blasted out, Kas is a vestige (see the new Tome of Magic for what a vestige is, and DRAGON #341 for Kas specifically), and Gondegal's still around at last report.
Soth was more iconic than Gondegal, true, but he's also from a setting that tends to set itself apart from the D&D cosmos than the Realms or Greyhawk ever did. I think that's more of why his time in Ravenloft has been erased from DL continuity.
That said, I still hold out for the 'alternate Krynns' idea. "A Stone's Throw Away" strongly hints that at least one Krynn out there has some connection to the D&D cosmos, and it may be the least painful way to try and sort out the continuity errors. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
I could have sworn the old second edition "Domains of Dread" book with details on all the Darklords said that Tristessa was a drow from Faerun that was cast out, and died, reborn as a banshee. Hazlik was a Red Wizard of Thay according to his bio. There was also a mercenary knight and his cadre of fighters that were from a named area of Krynn (can't remember the knight's name or where he was from- don't have the book at the moment). I'll have to double check that. I thought the places those characters were from were named areas from other D&D settings. If they aren't, that's news to me. :P
Unless those characters were retconned in 3.x in order to further distance RL from the other settings?
Unless those characters were retconned in 3.x in order to further distance RL from the other settings?
Retconning? Nobody does that!
Cheers,
Cam
I could have sworn the old second edition "Domains of Dread" book with details on all the Darklords said that Tristessa was a drow from Faerun that was cast out, and died, reborn as a banshee. Hazlik was a Red Wizard of Thay according to his bio. There was also a mercenary knight and his cadre of fighters that were from a named area of Krynn (can't remember the knight's name or where he was from- don't have the book at the moment). I'll have to double check that. I thought the places those characters were from were named areas from other D&D settings. If they aren't, that's news to me. :P
Unless those characters were retconned in 3.x in order to further distance RL from the other settings?
All those characters were given backgrounds in other D&D worlds, with the exception of Tristessa, but none of them were actually from the other product lines. They were created for Ravenloft and introduced in Ravenloft products. I believe Jander Sunstar is the only case of a Ravenloft-created character later being mentioned in the product line he was given a backstory in, although I'm iffy on the DARK SUN domain of Kalidnay and its ruler Kalid-Ma.
The 3E Ravenloft material doesn't mention their backgrounds in other settings officially, due to the limitations of the license agreement with Arthaus, but it didn't deny them either.
And I just looked up Tristessa in Domains of Dread, and that's actually the first source to explicitly state that she wasn't a drow. (Drow were retconned out of Ravenloft around the mid-1990s, replaced with the shadow fey. Tristessa just modeled herself on some drow outlanders who entered the fey realm of Arak.)
Matthew L. Martin
Retconning? Nobody does that!
Cheers,
Cam
Riiiiiiiiiiight.
All those characters were given backgrounds in other D&D worlds, with the exception of Tristessa, but none of them were actually from the other product lines. They were created for Ravenloft and introduced in Ravenloft products.
I guess that kinda makes sense since they were relative 'nobodies' in what would have been their realms of origin, so no biggie on their backgrounds. I was more interested in the precedent that was set in their stories as being from DL, FR, DS, etc even if their origins were written specifically for RL. The precedent being that characters from other realms can enter into RL. This opens the possibility of Soth's visit there as well.
The 3E Ravenloft material doesn't mention their backgrounds in other settings officially, due to the limitations of the license agreement with Arthaus, but it didn't deny them either.
The classic CYA and licensing.
Hence the Black Rose, or Dark Knight vs outright saying 'Soth'.And I just looked up Tristessa in Domains of Dread, and that's actually the first source to explicitly state that she wasn't a drow. (Drow were retconned out of Ravenloft around the mid-1990s, replaced with the shadow fey. Tristessa just modeled herself on some drow outlanders who entered the fey realm of Arak.)
Matthew L. Martin
Hmm, apparently I need to read up on that book again. :embarrass *open mouth, insert foot*
I guess that kinda makes sense since they were relative 'nobodies' in what would have been their realms of origin, so no biggie on their backgrounds. I was more interested in the precedent that was set in their stories as being from DL, FR, DS, etc even if their origins were written specifically for RL. The precedent being that characters from other realms can enter into RL. This opens the possibility of Soth's visit there as well.
Oh, sure. Ravenloft's been the "Twilight Zone" of the D&D worlds from the getgo, even allowing for parts of Ravenloft to overlap other worlds for a while. The problem was never with Ravenloft's end--it's that Dragonlance can be . . . rather insular. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
As for the Sithican Kender, they are a special breed of vampire held over from AD&d, when vampires had slightly different abilities and weaknesses based on their original race. For example, an elven vampire was different than a gnomish vampire, which are both different than the normal vampire, which is human.
I have just reread this entire thread and something came up. I do not remember where I read this but I would have sworn that some reference or book or something stated that all undead were destroyed ast the end of teh chaos war because of teh departure of the gods. Does anybody remember this or am I just spouting nonsense.
Nope, they were still around, and if anything, were not permitted to leave Krynn due to machinations of the One God, so there was probably more undead on Krynn after the Chaos War than there was beforehand.
A large portion of them moved on since the river of souls was permitted to flow freely again after Tak was defeated at the end of the War of Souls. They weren't completely wiped out though. Especially the particularly strong willed undead which resisted the call of the One God.
I have just reread this entire thread and something came up. I do not remember where I read this but I would have sworn that some reference or book or something stated that all undead were destroyed ast the end of teh chaos war because of teh departure of the gods. Does anybody remember this or am I just spouting nonsense.
Tracy was hinting at that when we were working on the Appendix to DoaVM (hardcover edition only, if you're wondering what happened to it). I don't know if it ever made it into print or not--it's been a long time since I looked at DoaVM--but it's possible it did. Soth was an exception.
I didn't care for the idea--there were other ghosts of pre-5A entities running around in the pre-WoS Fifth Age material--but it may have made it in anyway.
Matthew L. Martin
Isn't Dragonlance canon decided by Wizards of the Coast, who owns the rights? I'm sure Weis and Hickman can say a lot of things and ppl take to it like the gospel and thats cool. But officially, WoTC is who decides what happens in Dragonlance. I'm pretty sure, like 99.99%, that anything an author writes or has go on has to be approved by someone, somewhere at WoTC. So even if Weis wanted there to be like green midgets from mars come into Dragonlance and be canon, it'd still have to be approved by WoTC to get in print and become part of Dragonlance canon.
Personally I believe that the Ravenloft books were great and really fit Lord Soth. His death was horrible in my opinion.. it didn't really make sense to me. He didn't have to fight in the War of the Lance, but chose so of his own will. And then Mina demands he fight for her in the War of the Souls? Just doesn't make sense. It seriously just seems they needed to find someone powerful enough to kill him off and a reason to do it. Enter Mina. I actually feel like they just wanted to kill him off to end the debate of Ravenloft forever, which if it was, was kind of childish. But then again I don't know this for sure, just my opinion, so I may be dead wrong. It happens.
I also get tired of characters constantly being redeemed. It seems like anymore all the cool characters that ppl love need to be redeemed. Raistlin, Lord Soth, Mina maybe?, etc. Its almost like they feel bad that they made an evil person who everyone loves, so they redeem them and then all the fans are like.. now they are even better! Maybe some ppl feel guilty for liking a character who does very evil things and just want to like the person, so they want them redeemed. I dunno, seems kind of stupid to me. I see arguments all the time how ppl can't believe that ppl think KoN are cool, Arakias is cool, etc.. because they are evil. "It glorifies evil" or something along those lines. Seen a few posters on Dragonlance.com who are like..and its amazing.
Personally I like there being cool bad guys who just arent dumb villains who know nothing and are doomed to fail, etc. I don't want to see every cool evil guy come out to be redeemed. You can be neat and evil..it actually adds diversity in my opinion.
You know, I feel the same way about good characters being corrupted to evil. It goes both ways. I have been thinking that there isn't enough "redeeming" done with evil characters...to each thier own though.
Also, not sure why ppl say Soth was jealous or went out like a punk....he simply recognized that Tak used his fear and emotions in general against him. As he told Mina, he was left to his thoughts and desided to change. He stood up to Tak/Mina, knowing he would die...he excepted that, was redeemed.....not sure how that is a "bad way to go out". He didn't fight with a sword or magic, but he didn't have too.
Great ending to Soth, and like someone else said, one of my favorite parts of the book.
lol well to me, evil is different. Everyone's opinion is different about things, so I dont really worry about you thinking of it as different =). To me, just because a person is evil, it doesnt mean that automatically they will fail, be killed or hunted by others, or always have something bad to them. In real life there are constantly "evil" ppl who do get away with things all their lives. Not everyone who does evil is the worst sort of scum either. Knights of Takhisis were like that..at least some of them, which is why some ppl thought they were neat.
My PC's group is evil. But I've seen them make donations to the Mishakel temple, help beggers, sacrifice themselves for the fellow PC members in their group, do deeds that helped out more than just themselves, etc. But then I've seen them turn around and rob ppl, destroy things, kill ppl, etc. They are evil because they do what they want.
I have had the Black Robe be attacked by other Black Robes in order to "get ahead" in rank or whatever. My PC loved it. He would sit there and try to figure out ways to get on the Conclae, forge deals, and deal with people who would try to take him down. He constantly knew that he had to watch his back and would have things happen to him, but the trade-offs were worth it to his PC. Just like in real life some people think the trade-offs of doing something horrible is worth whatever recourse they would get, if ever.
And yes for your information, I have send countless things after them in retaliation for things that they do. They sometimes come out ahead, sometimes don't. But thats for any PC or adventurer. They know they have a few more things gunning for them since they are evil..not only do they have good ppl after them but evil as well! But they relish the freedom to literally be able to do whatever they want while they play D&D. They dont go around doing messed up things and sick thing, constantly discribing messed up things. But they have the freedom to kill a NPC if they dont like what they hear, or if they see a magical item to steal, etc. We all enjoy the games and I wouldnt change any of it =)
You can spout about evil always turning on itself, etc..and thats cool. If thats how you play it fine, cool man. As I've said, I've seen my group of evil PC's constantly fight for eachother and help eachother out, while still doing evil things as a group. Now they may have allies who turn on them, but them as a group? Nope havent seen it yet and I can guarantee it wont happen =).
I never did say that "evil" was cool. I just mentioned that a character that totally evil, can still have a certain coolness factor to them and be a neat character. I never meant to insinuate that I thought the things they did was neat..I dont. But characters are characters. Remember in real life there is so much grey its not even funny. Also remember that evil is mainly an opinion, what one person thinks is evil may not be the same as someone else.
Again, to not be totally off topic, I loved how Lord Soth was shown in Ravenloft and thought it helped him grow as a character. Personally I've always found his 'curse' kind of funny anyways. I mean Paladine cursed him but then gave him all that power to be able to kill ppl? Doesnt sound like as much of a curse as what it could have been. Don't get me wrong..I dont think it'd be a fun time at all.. but he was given the power to basically be able to kill a lot of ppl..even worshippers of Paladine. Doesnt really make sense why you would do that as a God heh.
Again his death didnt sit well with me. I'd love to know why he wasnt required to be in the War of the Lance.. but all of a sudden Takhisis was mad because he wouldnt fight alongside Mina? Just doesnt make much sense to *me*. Others may have loved it. It justs eems like too many ppl want evil characters to be "redeemed" so that they can think they are cool without ppl jumping on their backs and saying stuff like "You cant like him, he does evil things!!"
Honestly arguing about evil probably isnt a good thing, many ppl have done it throughout many of the boards. As I said before, everyone has their opionions, just wanted to at least state some of my thoughts. It wasnt mean to be negative to you at all, and it may come off like that, guess I maybe went into defensive mode =)
Your group sounds like they should be neutral more than evil...but I don't know every little thing about them either.
I agree. I thought it was a rather fitting, yet touching way to end the character. Better than some of the other major characters' deaths, IMO.
I (third) that. I felt it was his way of redeming himself. Finally standing defiantly against the queen of darkness. Thus thats what he truely was doing. Mina was nothing to him. He knew what he was doing. I liked it.
Nope, they were still around, and if anything, were not permitted to leave Krynn due to machinations of the One God, so there was probably more undead on Krynn after the Chaos War than there was beforehand.
So if the Undead were still around how was it that Soth was supposedly able to ignore the banshee's wails. I thought that he was able to contemplate on his choices due to the fact that these undead were no longer around, and that this is what lead to his redemption (because it enabled to see his mistakes, whereas the Banshees kept taunting him and all). So if they were still there how was he able to redeem himself.
I know that the spirits of the undead were unable to leave and all that but nobody could see them until the war of the souls if I remember correctly.
As a fan of Ravenloft and Dragonlance I say Ravenloft should be declared the only canon concerning Soth after he walked into the mists.
Now one of you (sorry if I can't recall your name) says that Wizards says Soth was never in Ravenloft.
That was likely Sean Everette (Wyndham). Whether he ever "really" did or not really doesn't matter all that much. How one eastablishes what a fictional character "really" did or not is an interesting question in itself. But the important thing is this: Dragonlance material published by Sovereign Press assumes that Soth never left Krynn for Ravenloft, and WoTC seems to be OK with that.
Frostdawn
So if the Undead were still around how was it that Soth was supposedly able to ignore the banshee's wails. I thought that he was able to contemplate on his choices due to the fact that these undead were no longer around, and that this is what lead to his redemption (because it enabled to see his mistakes, whereas the Banshees kept taunting him and all). So if they were still there how was he able to redeem himself.
I know that the spirits of the undead were unable to leave and all that but nobody could see them until the war of the souls if I remember correctly.
They were being used to siphon off magic, against their own will for the most part. And they had to be invisible to the masses in order to make stealing away the magic easier for both the undead and by extension, Tak. By being invisible, it was mistakenly believed that the undead were gone. They were still around, just most folks couldn't see them, only feel their presence while trying to employ magic in some form or other.
This calling of the undead for magic leeching was mostly for incorporeal undead IIRC; like the banshees or keening spirits of Soth's, or whatever they are being referred to these days.
i havent read any of the FR where Soth is in them. But i figured they had the right to put him in FR. But never thought it was some continuing story line from DragonLance to FR. just thought of it as there was Soth(DL) and Soth(FR).
Ravenloft, for the most part, accounts for Soth's presence both in DL and in Ravenloft, and accounts for his time in each rather neatly IMHO. It covers his 'downtime' in DL since he was in Ravenloft during that time. DL has yet to touch on what Soth was doing post Summer of Chaos at all. DL denies that Soth had anything to do with Ravenloft though. Why, I don't know, but apparently that is the official backing. Seems kinda sloppy and arbitrary IMO, but there it is.
Personally, I think it's a battle of egos- writers and WotC- over the intellectual rights of an iconic character like Soth. I can't back that up, but is the impression I'm getting from all of this. I would think WotC could overturn any and all rulings regarding Soth once and for all. The only exception I could see is if Weis and/or Hickman retained some intellectual rights over the character of Soth and declared he was never in Ravenloft. Then in order to avoid a SNAFU, WotC backed them and said 'yeah, sure, whatever.'
Cheers,
Cam
One important point to keep in mind is that by acknowledging that Soth went to Ravenloft, one would have to acknowledge Ravenloft and the Demiplane of Dread in toto, lock stock and barrel, as having something to do with the same "universe" as Krynn. That's no longer a preferred state for any of the WOTC settings, regardless of past "cross-over" events. So, if you can't acknowledge Ravenloft, there's really no point in making an effort to do so in this case.
Cheers,
Cam
What I don't understand is why it seems so verboten to acknowledge the Demiplane of Dread? Alternate realities, pocket dimensions and miscellaneous other planes abound, even a planet of alien dragons; what is so wrong about the Dreaded Demiplane (pun intended) being acknowledged as something that can touch into the realm of DL?
edit- and why is it that Ravenloft can refer to DL, FR, etc, but those respective worlds won't refer back to Ravenloft? It's like saying the Demiplane does touch on other worlds. Umm, sometimes. Maybe. In certain circumstances? Or maybe not really. No? No, maybe not? Let's compromise. It works one way, but not both. Hey! The wisdom of Solomon with D&D. :P
What I don't understand is why it seems so verboten to acknowledge the Demiplane of Dread?... and why is it that Ravenloft can refer to DL, FR, etc, but those respective worlds won't refer back to Ravenloft?
Many people - myself included - think that mixing settings dilutes their uniqueness and flavor, hence weakening both. If all D&D settings have to exist in the same multiverse, each has to take others into account in their design - can't have one contradicting another, etc. Why not have Frodo Baggins and Han Solo and King Arthur and Buffy and the Harlem Globetrotters all show up in Ravenloft, too? Sooner or later it just turns into a bad Scooby-Doo episode.
DL works best when the only universe it need concern itself with is DL. In my opinion.
Because Ravenloft (the brand) and Dragonlance (the brand) are separate, they are free to have their own specific details, timelines, design elements, and so forth. However, Soth is a Dragonlance property, and not a Ravenloft one, and in this case it means that he never went there as far as the official continuity states. If he did leave Krynn for a while, it would never be clarified in a DL product as to where he went, what the place was like, or what happened there, at least in terms of the events of the Ravenloft campaign setting's premise of Sithicus et al.
So it isn't "just" a case of acknowledging Ravenloft. It's a case of keeping brand identity separate.
Cheers,
Cam
I never saw it as cheesy because honestly I never saw it overused. You didnt see constant ppl from Dragonlance running around Ravenloft. A lot of the ppl from other worlds who were thrown into Ravenloft actually ended up making it seem as if they fit. As in, they became Ravenloft characters, not DL, FR, etc ppl running around Ravenloft. Now mayb this is just my opinion, and others may disagree, but by the end of Knight of the Black Rose, he *was* a Ravenloft character. That author really just wrote a great book. I actually think a lot of the conflict came because Lord Soth was such a beloved character that the DL fans wanted to keep him, understandably. But others thought he had so much more potential in Ravenloft, and now I know they/we were right. Because what happened? Right when he was "back", he's killed off. No DL fan gained anything by having him back in DL.. you dont even get to use him really, unless you retcon the death.
And I think thats part of the argument about his death. I've said it before, I think a lot of ppl liked his death because he was such a loved character. People felt "bad" it seemed about liking him because he was such an evil guy. And they only liked his death because he "redeemed", which to me was just annoying. I see it so much at the DL boards that all these ppl have such a huge problem with liking an evil character, that the only way they feel safe liking them is if they redeem. "Well he's not that evil...". People have used this justification for Raistlin, Mina, Lord Soth, etc.. even if they have valid proof in front of their face that they did unspeakable evil. They *want* to like the character, so they look for any way that they can say.. But he did that one good thing! Which to me is just amazing, but to each their own.
Lord Soth's death just did not make any sense. He was always his own man. He joined the War of the Lance only after Kitiara showed courage at staying at his castle, and he eventually wanted her. I dont see how all of a sudden Takhisis was mad because he didnt join this war. It didnt seem believeable to me.
Lord Soth would have been a *great* character to just have go somewhere for awhile. As in, you dont hear from him for years. He's undead, you'd only need to bring him out after a long time has passed. Look how many years he didnt do anything after the Cataclysm. His character could have faded from the conflicts and we could have had all new heroes/villains in the limelight. And then years down the road, bring him out again as an old favorite. Instead, since they have basically gotten rid of all the old favorites, they are inventing "old" favorites, i.e. Mina and saying..well she's been around for a long time. You wouldnt need to do that, if you didnt just kill off everyone to start anew. A blanket ban on using Lord Soth for a little bit would have gone a long way.
Oh please...all those years of "Soth isn't in Ravenloft"-Yada yada just to kill him off in the worst way possible? Mina clearly is the worst case of a 'deux ex machina' ever. No thanks. Could someone please kill her, before she transforms into Takhisis II? Nothing heroric, nothing reedeming, nothing grand, just get rid of her? a stray arrow shot by a hunting elf would be great...
As a fan of Ravenloft and Dragonlance I say Ravenloft should be declared the only canon concerning Soth after he walked into the mists.
Um, Mina's not turning into a Takhisis II.
Amber and Iron spoiler alert!
Show
, she was, or actually is, a god of light. nothing really could kill her now, except for the sacrifices of another god, which really wouldn't work, because the balance would be usuped again.
Um, Mina's not turning into a Takhisis II.
Amber and Iron spoiler alert!Show, she was, or actually is, a god of light. nothing really could kill her now, except for the sacrifices of another god, which really wouldn't work, because the balance would be usuped again.
And I think thats part of the argument about his death. I've said it before, I think a lot of ppl liked his death because he was such a loved character. People felt "bad" it seemed about liking him because he was such an evil guy. And they only liked his death because he "redeemed", which to me was just annoying. I see it so much at the DL boards that all these ppl have such a huge problem with liking an evil character, that the only way they feel safe liking them is if they redeem. "Well he's not that evil...". People have used this justification for Raistlin, Mina, Lord Soth, etc.. even if they have valid proof in front of their face that they did unspeakable evil. They *want* to like the character, so they look for any way that they can say.. But he did that one good thing! Which to me is just amazing, but to each their own.
Lord Soth's death just did not make any sense. He was always his own man. He joined the War of the Lance only after Kitiara showed courage at staying at his castle, and he eventually wanted her. I dont see how all of a sudden Takhisis was mad because he didnt join this war. It didnt seem believeable to me.
Lord Soth would have been a *great* character to just have go somewhere for awhile. As in, you dont hear from him for years. He's undead, you'd only need to bring him out after a long time has passed. Look how many years he didnt do anything after the Cataclysm. His character could have faded from the conflicts and we could have had all new heroes/villains in the limelight. And then years down the road, bring him out again as an old favorite. Instead, since they have basically gotten rid of all the old favorites, they are inventing "old" favorites, i.e. Mina and saying..well she's been around for a long time. You wouldnt need to do that, if you didnt just kill off everyone to start anew. A blanket ban on using Lord Soth for a little bit would have gone a long way.
Its like the first time Soth tried to redeem himself. He had two chances while he lived(mortal/flesh). Its not wrong that he had another redeeming "choice". His character revolved around his "choices" that he made, both in life and undeath.
Takhisis claimed Soth before becoming the Death Knight. She had him in her army... make sense that she would be mad when he defied her.
DL made them selves different by how it all came about. They weren't books than a game like FR; but a game that became books. Its been its own world, not connected to anyway to any of the others.
Takhisis claimed Soth before becoming the Death Knight. She had him in her army... make sense that she would be mad when he defied her.
Soth was a Rose Knight and follower of Paladine until his fall from grace and eventual curse from Isolde and the Pantheon of the Gods. He did not belong to Tak while he was alive, though he served her during the time of the third dragon war and shortly thereafter while he was a death knight.
His death just seemed so.. silly. I have no problem with characters dying, I'm actually one of the rare ppl who liked how Tanis went. It went to show that not every hero dies in a great, honorable way, etc. But with Soth, it just looked too much like Weis+Hickman just wanted to get rid of him just to end the Ravenloft debate.
Soth was a Rose Knight and follower of Paladine until his fall from grace and eventual curse from Isolde and the Pantheon of the Gods. He did not belong to Tak while he was alive, though he served her during the time of the third dragon war and shortly thereafter while he was a death knight.
I thought Chemosh claimed him as soon as he became a death knight, and he served the cause of Tak by choice, as True_Blue was hinting. While yes his down fall can be credited to Tak, I alway viewed that as her taking something away from Paladine, not gaining something for herself. He was a powerful force for the cause of good in his mortal days, and Tak's visibale agents had been attacked by both the knights and the Kingpriest, it's not like she had clerics out recruiting. At that point of Krynn history evil forces were using unconventional tatics, I always viewed the fall of Soth as a part of Tak's battle of small victories.
After his fall and rebirth, I always felt Soth served Soth first and for most. While Chemosh was the god of the undead, he is not presented as an active god, more as a passive one that likes to watch the show.
I love Dragonlance, and I love Ravenloft. Both actually, as an ongoing storyline, benefit from having Soth in them, and greatly suffer for Soth not being in them. Now, I understand that Weis/Hickman did not agree to have it happen, and respect them both greatly as both authors, (and in my opinion among the best I've ever known). But, both in and out of game, that is what Ravenloft does. It just goes to show that the powers of Ravenloft can affect even DM's.
Of all of the worlds, only RL and DL I appriciate. I am neutral towards Greyhawk. FR a strongly dislike, and I activly hate and detest Eberron. But, if Drizzt, the entirety of the Church of the Silver Flame, Corelon, or any other character gets sucked into Ravenloft in a published book, the creators of the person or entety in question has zero say about it. That is what happens sometimes when you sign with a creative company.
Lastly, if in Dragonlance, Soth never left, I expect to see a trilogy about how and why he turn away from evil. If he didn't do some real soul searching for years in Ravenloft, than what, over sixty years of sitting on his a@s made him redeem himself.
By the way, Beckett, I hate to corect you (I try to avoid things like this) but it's 'moot' not, mute.
In regards to your spoiler, the balance is already out of whack. The neutral pantheon has the most powerful god in the entire pantheon, plus the most gods still in attendance. From what we've seen so far, she (Mina) is kinda being geared toward becoming a Tak II. I mean, she has gravitated whole-heartedly towards evil. Twice.
The whole point of mina discovering that, is that the balance would be restored. Now some one just needs to become the other one.
The whole point of mina discovering that, is that the balance would be restored. Now some one just needs to become the other one.
I think that's already in place, via a certain travelling elf with a band of merry adventurers following him around. And no, it's not Robin Hood. :D
He just needs to be reinstated...
I think that's already in place, via a certain travelling elf with a band of merry adventurers following him around. And no, it's not Robin Hood. :D
He just needs to be reinstated...
Is it Santa's number one helper?
Soverign Press does Dragon Lance? When did that happen?
Since 2003, though work began in 2002.
Cheers,
Cam
Unfortionatly, the argument is mute. I have a few Ravenloft adventures that say Lord Soth was there. He is undoubtably the Lord Soth from Dragonlance. Nowhere do any mention that they are "what ifs". This overrides whatever Weis and Hickman declare about him, and in fact what anyone from WotC has, does, can, or will establish. Period.
I beg to differ.
Cheers,
Cam
I, as a DM, can say Eleminister is dead. It can be true in every game I run. But that does not affect any other game.
I thought Chemosh claimed him as soon as he became a death knight, and he served the cause of Tak by choice, as True_Blue was hinting. While yes his down fall can be credited to Tak, I alway viewed that as her taking something away from Paladine, not gaining something for herself. He was a powerful force for the cause of good in his mortal days, and Tak's visibale agents had been attacked by both the knights and the Kingpriest, it's not like she had clerics out recruiting. At that point of Krynn history evil forces were using unconventional tatics, I always viewed the fall of Soth as a part of Tak's battle of small victories.
After his fall and rebirth, I always felt Soth served Soth first and for most. While Chemosh was the god of the undead, he is not presented as an active god, more as a passive one that likes to watch the show.
True, after Soth became a deathknight, he served only himself. His curse was carried out not just by Chemosh however, it was started by Isolde when she set the castle aflame (sounds like a powerful Ravenloft-esque curse to me, but I digress) and the curse was given it's full potency by all of the gods. They also provided the banshees to forever remind him of his own petty transgressions and how it destroyed the lives of millions; aside from his own and that of his family.
Just because Chemosh is the god of undead doesn't mean he's the only one who can create a deathknight. Zeboim is the one who created Ausric Krell, the 'Mungo' of DL bad guys.
*shudder* what a joke of a villain he turned out to be...
Is it Santa's number one helper?
I can see it now, the Simpson's dog in charge of the pantheon of the Gods of Light. :D
"Santa's Helper, The Evil Pantheon is trying to throw off the balance of the world again! What should we do?!"
*licks his 'nads*
How? When you by a company en toto, you can go around say "okay, these fascts don't work with what we have planned" all you want. But that does not change the fact that they happened.The Lord Soth, from Dragonlance, does appeare, IN PRINT, in D&D books and material.
Well, Cam does do a lot of freelance work for Sovereign Press, and the official word is that Soth never went to Ravenloft.
The Kingpriest was a paragon of Goodness.
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
Matthew L. Martin
How? When you by a company en toto, you can go around say "okay, these fascts don't work with what we have planned" all you want. But that does not change the fact that they happened.The Lord Soth, from Dragonlance, does appeare, IN PRINT, in D&D books and material.
A lot of things have. Soth had a tarrasque in his basement and Kitiara flew around as a penanngalan with her innards trailing behind her decapitated head. Are you saying everything in print is true? Because I could show you some real doozies.
Cheers,
Cam
As other people may have read, I;m realativly new to the DL series. Who is the elf with the merry band of adventurers you are talking about?
**Spoilers**
That would be Paladine in his mortal form- the elf, Valthonis. The merry band of adventurers are mortals that follow him around (much to his chagrin) and assist him and his endeavors. He just wants to do good in the world, and not have a bunch of sycophants following him around. At least that's what I've gotten from the little we've heard about his fate.
Also, keep in mind that he no longer possesses all the knowledge and prescience that he possessed as a god. He's just an average elf now. There are some people that think that since he was once a god, he should have epic levels and abilities- this is not the case.
**Spoilers**
That would be Paladine in his mortal form- the elf, Valthonis...Also, keep in mind that he no longer possesses all the knowledge and prescience that he possessed as a god. He's just an average elf now. There are some people that think that since he was once a god, he should have epic levels and abilities- this is not the case.
There are times when I must ask "who are these people?" like when I hear "Some people say the moon landing was faked in Hollywood, and that the Earth is really flat. But in this case I know who at least on of these people are, me. I feel that he should have some epic levels and abilities. Just a few here and there. Though I still do not agree with him taking the form of an elf, yes in the books the elves are always saying "we are the chosen of Paladine, blah blah blah." I think it would have been much better, espically for future story lines if he had taken the form of a kender. Just imagine that band following a kender with epic abilities across Krynn. Not lock or pocket would be safe.
But as a mortal, and a former god, I can see that he should not keep all the power he once had, but he should have more power than the average elf.
But as a mortal, and a former god, I can see that he should not keep all the power he once had, but he should have more power than the average elf.
This was a debate that went on back and forth for awhile over on the Dragonlance.com forums. The official stance from SP (IIRC) is that he is an everyday, ordinary elf, not above or below the average elf in terms of abilities, etc.
If you want him to be epic with crazy feats, or be a wizard, etc in your game, more power to you. Or rather, more power to Valthonis I guess. ;)
Out if curiousity, does anyone know whether or not Pyrite still travels with Paladine? Whenever I use Valthonis and his merry men as a plot point I always have the befuddled old dragon traveling with them. It just adds to the hilarity.
I thought I had read in one of the Campaign setting books that Pyrite was Valthonis' familiar,
A lot of things have. Soth had a tarrasque in his basement and Kitiara flew around as a penanngalan with her innards trailing behind her decapitated head. Are you saying everything in print is true? Because I could show you some real doozies.
Cheers,
Cam
Really? A tarrasque? What's that from? Why can't I have a tarrasque in my basement?
Really? A tarrasque? What's that from? Why can't I have a tarrasque in my basement?
I wonder how that would effect one's insurance rates ? It would be good for theft prevention, but what type of liability would one need?
I really do not think it would be good in a basement, mabey in his back yard, at the bottom of the chasm.
the official word is that Soth never went to Ravenloft.
Soth never went to Ravenloft because the multiverse no longer exists and thus, in terms of DragonLance, Ravenloft doesn't exist.
Soth never went to Ravenloft because the multiverse no longer exists and thus, in terms of DragonLance, Ravenloft doesn't exist.
Wrong.
First of all, TSR confirmed (years ago, I'll grant you) that, despite all the dark looks coming from Weis & Hickman, Soth did go to RL, if only for a while. They may not be happy about someone else playing with their favorite toy but that doesn't give them the right to invalidate it.
Second, the RL universe still exists. Not only does it have a 3.5 version thanks to Sword & Sorcery but - now that the license has come back in WotC's purse - it appears the line will continue, if only in name.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/078693946X/sr=8-1/qid=1147588618/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5501673-4108707?%5Fencoding=UTF8
Besides, I don't see what's so wrong with "ol' bucket's head" existing in another setting for a while. If Damalar was able to meet Elminster and Mordenkainen in the pages of Dragon without causing an uproar among DL fans, then this shouldn't be so hard to swallow. Frankly, I prefer to know Soth contributed something to any setting instead of sitting in the dust till W&H remembered they had still to deal with him.
And Soth had a place of honor in RL. Fans loved him (probably thanks to James Lowder's novels).
That said, yes, the tarrasque in the basement was silly but then again that whole adventure was.
Personally, Soth becoming a Darklord was one of the best things that could have ever happened to him. It transformed him from a somewhat obvious (but still remarkable) Darth Vader clone to an interesting, fully fleshed out figure. It was also a somewhat bold move for D&D, because it was the first time a notable, iconic character became a part of another setting, while totally leaving his point of origin.
Wrong.
He's right, actually.
First of all, TSR confirmed (years ago, I'll grant you) that, despite all the dark looks coming from Weis & Hickman, Soth did go to RL, if only for a while. They may not be happy about someone else playing with their favorite toy but that doesn't give them the right to invalidate it.
Things change. Years ago, with the release of Tales of the Lance, the gods all got moved into the Manual of the Planes' Great Wheel cosmology, rather than the original planar setup given in Dragonlance Adventures. Spelljamming ships and the Ravenloft mists all reached Krynn and all D&D settings were connected and part of one multiverse.
That's no longer true, Soth no longer went to Ravenloft, Spelljamming drow elves no longer crashed on Krynn, etc.
Cheers,
Cam
Things change. Years ago, with the release of Tales of the Lance, the gods all got moved into the Manual of the Planes' Great Wheel cosmology, rather than the original planar setup given in Dragonlance Adventures.
Actually, placing the Krynnish pantheons in the Great Wheel dates back to the 1E Manual of the Planes, which makes it clear that Takhisis and Tiamat are one and the same.
Things change, indeed. But I still hold to my 'two Krynns' idea. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
Things change, indeed. But I still hold to my 'two Krynns' idea. :-)
There are countless Krynns, since it's a game setting. But the only one that really figures into my thinking is the one I write for.
Cheers,
Cam
Krynn-1! Krynn-2! Krynn-S! Krynn-3! Krynn-4! Krynn-Prime! :D Oh no! Takhisis has returned... to all Krynns! Crisis on Infinite Krynns! Only the good Raistlin from Krynn-3 can stop her! With some help from the giant, unannoying, noble kender from Krynn-6!
Hahaha.
Things change. Years ago, with the release of Tales of the Lance, the gods all got moved into the Manual of the Planes' Great Wheel cosmology, rather than the original planar setup given in Dragonlance Adventures. Spelljamming ships and the Ravenloft mists all reached Krynn and all D&D settings were connected and part of one multiverse.
That's no longer true, Soth no longer went to Ravenloft, Spelljamming drow elves no longer crashed on Krynn, etc.
Cheers,
Cam
Sorry to contradict you Cam but that's incorrect too. Incomplete actually.
First of all, even though the current trend is to give each setting its own cosmology, it simply becomes a matter of "alternate universes" and some means of going from one to the other still exist (the Plane of Shadow among others). So, different cosmology doesn't necessarily mean incompatibility. If it did, Mordenkainen and Elminster couldn't still be meeting which they do since - and WotC advertises it loud enough - Dragon mag. says so and Dragon is considered "official".
Note that one could argue that Soth was abducted by the mists while Krynn was in its previous (as in pre-theft by the Queen of Darkness) planar "location" and that, while it's no longer possible, such transplanar journey was possible back then
If you need one more proof that the Mists can snatch anyone they want anywhere they want, then consider this: the world of the Dark Sun universe has always been described as impossible to reach via Spelljamming and near-impossible to find via planar travel. Yet, the Mists had at least one darklord from that setting. Ergo, if they want someone badly enough, they'll get it, different cosmology or not. And that was back in 2e...
Spelljamming still exists too. There are enough hints about it in recent accessories. I don't know if it's to please the "old crowd" or to have something to fall back on in case they ever decide to bring it back to life as a setting but the fact is that it does.
I could add that the presence of Yaggol on Taladas (made official by the latest novel line) is proof enough of that...
That said, I'll agree with you on the fact that module DLS4 needs to be forgotten as if it had never happened
First of all, even though the current trend is to give each setting its own cosmology, it simply becomes a matter of "alternate universes" and some means of going from one to the other still exist (the Plane of Shadow among others). So, different cosmology doesn't necessarily mean incompatibility.
This leaves the option open, sure, but then you don't need a book to tell you whether you can mix your universes or not.
Put simply, if you are running a "by the book" Dragonlance campaign, there is no Ravenloft and there are no Spelljamming ships, period.
If you're running a Ravenloft campaign, go crazy.
The yaggol weren't once spelljamming mind flayers. They're descended from "aliens", yes, but then the Dragon Overlords weren't native either and they certainly didn't arrive on board a Spelljamming vessel.
Cheers,
Cam
The yaggol weren't once spelljamming mind flayers. They're descended from "aliens"
Funny how certain creatures became "nameless-aliens-that-look-like-something-you-know-but-can't-put-a-name-on" just because they didn't make it into the SRD :P
Funny how certain creatures became "nameless-aliens-that-look-like-something-you-know-but-can't-put-a-name-on" just because they didn't make it into the SRD :P
SP is a Wizards of the Coast Official Licensee, though, so they get to use beholders, displacer beasts, carrion crawlers etc in their products. Which is nice.
Cheers,
Cam
If you need one more proof that the Mists can snatch anyone they want anywhere they want...
It's not a matter of proving anything. It's a statement of the assumptions the current holders of the license will operate under.
And, as far as game material goes, Dragonlance material will be written under the assumption that spelljamming, Ravenloft, the Greyhawk or FR pantheons, etc. etc. do not exist. New Dragonlance (gaming) material will not refer to Soth leaving Krynn for Ravenloft, and will assume he did not.
It's not as if there's some academic truth to be uncovered here - it's just a reworking of one of the universe's postulates.
It's not a matter of proving anything. It's a statement of the assumptions the current holders of the license will operate under.
And, as far as game material goes, Dragonlance material will be written under the assumption that spelljamming, Ravenloft, the Greyhawk or FR pantheons, etc. etc. do not exist. New Dragonlance (gaming) material will not refer to Soth leaving Krynn for Ravenloft, and will assume he did not.
It's not as if there's some academic truth to be uncovered here - it's just a reworking of one of the universe's postulates.
Well, it's sad. First of all because when one line of products does this, all the others are forced to retcon every single reference. In essence, that's akin to bullying them. Second, given WotC still has the RL license, there really wouldn't have been any copyright problem with an obscure reference to the realm of mists.
Obviously, a "strictly by the book" DL campaign will have to run according to this postulate but given most accessories (DL or not) these days begin with a "this is how we imagine it; however feel free to change anything you don't like for your campaign" statement, I don't think it's going to make any change whatsover for people (RL fans mainly) to whom this new postulate is tantamount to heresy.
Moreover, if this was a concept restricted to gaming accessories only, it could have been done. But given there are at least two RL novels which establish quite clearly who the darklord of Sithicus is (was rather), it's a bit more difficult to swallow. I can't imagine JL rewriting them to satisfy this retcon and since WotC is making money reprinting old TSR novels, I'm curious to see what will happen when they come down to Knight of the Black Rose, arguably one of the most successful of the RL line.
Even better, this invalidates the whole Cloakmaster Cycle (SJ novels) since two of the main heroes were from Krynn!
Finally, I don't get what the big deal is.
Did RL steal Soth forever? No.
Did the RL fans roll over and cry when James Lowyer gave Soth a way back to DL? No (arguably they were sad about it but that's life)
So, which is better: that Soth was "useful" to another setting during the years he wasn't on the DL daily news or that he sat gathering dust in his castle till W&H remembered they still had to deal with his storyline?
Dunno about you folks but I've made my choice...
Well, it's sad. First of all because when one line of products does this, all the others are forced to retcon every single reference. In essence, that's akin to bullying them. Second, given WotC still has the RL license, there really wouldn't have been any copyright problem with an obscure reference to the realm of mists.
I think you're missing the point here. Other settings don't need to retcon anything. As far as Ravenloft is concerned, maybe Soth did show up and rule Sithicus for a while before leaving. Maybe all kinds of Krynnish people journeyed on board spelljamming vessels as far as the Spelljammer setting is concerned. That's fine.
In Dragonlance, however, none of this is true for the setting any more.
This comes from a perception that all settings must be part of a single D&D multiverse, a perception that was true in TSR's 2nd edition AD&D products but isn't true now.
There is no inherent contradiction in Ravenloft having Soth (for RL) but Soth not being in Ravenloft (for DL).
Cheers,
Cam
Second, given WotC still has the RL license, there really wouldn't have been any copyright problem with an obscure reference to the realm of mists.
I think one area of disconnect people have on this topic is the often unstated assumption that it is a good thing for all D&D settings to share the same multiverse. That's not a universally held opinion.
And, seriously, what's the stroy behind the Tarrasque in Soth's basement?
Because the idea of all the D&D worlds being in the same universe apparently hurts the tender heads of new players. :rolleye2:
You could think this, or you could read what people in favor of setting independence actually say about it.
And would someone please tell me what's up with the tarrasque in Soth's basement? Did he need exterminators for it or what?
"Yeah, I have a bit of a pest problem..."
What do they say about it?
Short answer: Some people believe that enforcing the possibility of crossover between campaign worlds disrupts the unique identity and central themes of both settings.
Short answer: Some people believe that enforcing the possibility of crossover between campaign worlds disrupts the unique identity and central themes of both settings.
Given how deeply rooted in the D&D tradition DL is--the dragons, the monsters, the races, the magic, even the rough planar structure--I'm not sure I buy that the ocassional crossover disrupts the setting that much, especially when you have a D&D demon lord showing up in the second short story published, and rules for crossover characters in the Sacred Tome of DLA. :-)
I can see the argument for large-scale crossovers, but I'm not sure Soth in Ravenloft or the ocassional crack between worlds hurts DL that much. But I'm biased. :-)
Matthew L. Martin
...but I'm not sure Soth in Ravenloft or the ocassional crack between worlds hurts DL that much...
Opinions vary, obviously.
I see setting and system much more seperately, I suppose. I don't see Dragonlance and Raveloft as any better candidates for crossover than I do Dragonlance and, say, Middle-Earth. They're just settings, and I think they stand on their own more strongly than if you have to unify the cosmologies.
I can see the argument for large-scale crossovers, but I'm not sure Soth in Ravenloft or the ocassional crack between worlds hurts DL that much. But I'm biased. :-)
I wouldn't say biased so much as in disagreement about what those unique identities and central themes are.
Cheers,
Cam
Because the idea of all the D&D worlds being in the same universe apparently hurts the tender heads of new players. :rolleye2:
This is similiar to the rant I had on these boards a few years ago....
The issue at hand is really bigger than whether or not Soth went here or there but how fans of older editions feel about the multiverse and how it is represented in third edition.
And frankly speaking, I'm on the side of the single multiverse. Cam believes that having a 3e -like universe for Krynn identifies the campaign setting better, and he has a defensible position and he's more than welcome to that opinion. However, I've never liked this attitude among designers, not just in Dragonlance but in many campaign settings.... who here can look me in the eyes (......or.....type me in the eyes..or...) and say that the new multiverse-perspective of 3e didn't damage Forgotten Realms? Eh? It killed off campaign settings like Spelljammer, and most tragically, a fantastic campaign setting like Planescape!
Sure, one might argue, it doesn't hurt Dragonlance. Again, that's a very defensible position to have, but....I do not agree. I believe its the cause of many strange retcons in the current Dragonance cosmology, most notabley that awful appendix on the gods at the end of the War of Souls Trilogy. I can only assume such counter-intuitive drivel was the result of Paladine's memories going now that he was mortal.
The change of Chaos to Ionthas is one of the many retcons that have stemmed from this cosmological retcon, among a ton of others....seriously, I could geek out and rant for hours on this, but it would just be that....a rant.
I can understand that there is a certain amount of "oh brother" with some of the crossovers in ol' 2e, but then again there were mostly good ones though. And if you think that stuff like this isn't a systemic attitude amongst current game designers, look at that 3e module.....(shoot, I can't remember its name...) it featured Vecna somehow pulling an outrage on the Lady of Pain...because in 3e, she's just the local power of an out of place town on the cosmos...now tell me stuff like that doesn't damage the original flavor of the campaign setting!
The change of Chaos to Ionthas is one of the many retcons that have stemmed from this cosmological retcon, among a ton of others....seriously, I could geek out and rant for hours on this, but it would just be that....a rant.
That's OK. We retconned him back.
If you haven't read Holy Orders of the Stars yet, speaking of closed universe worlds, I'd suggest doing so. I don't think there's any harm in people tossing in all manner of things into their DL campaigns, but when it comes to the mainstream setting, we're trying to keep the other settings out of it.
Cheers,
Cam
That's OK. We retconned him back.
If you haven't read Holy Orders of the Stars yet, speaking of closed universe worlds, I'd suggest doing so. I don't think there's any harm in people tossing in all manner of things into their DL campaigns, but when it comes to the mainstream setting, we're trying to keep the other settings out of it.
Cheers,
Cam
Hey, man, do what you've got to do. Yes i have read Holy Orders (good job, kudos).
However, the general shift in 3e was, from what i hear, orginally the mastermind of just one designer and others have followed. Rather than aknowledge this as the trend in RPG's, I just see the idea of one designer, one person's viewpoint forced upon the majority.
As for the dragonlance thing.....hey wouldn't it be a great storytelling opportunity to have a little "special" module (non-cannon) where the other gods finally horn in on Krynn? Wait, wait, hear me out!
I've always wondered how one continent full of people (okay, maybe two or three, but still) can generate enough energy to sustain a full pantheon, especially one that starts at the intermediate level and goes up from there. And look at Krynn's history, what was it the souls were called? Stars? hmmm....from a 2e perspective it seems like the petitioners on Krynn are special compared to other "sods". A diety can reap far more sustenance of a Krynnish worshipper than someone from another world.....
Well, then, Krynn is known for the fact that planar travel is severly restricted. Why? Maybe to make sure beings from other places don't horn in. Maybe its to stop the flow of Kender. Maybe its because Krynn is the prison of the primordial uber-deity Chaos. Maybe it's all of those things.
Now take the events after the War of Souls. All that shut off planar travel is nill after the world was moved (that's how the dragon's came, right?). Well, all of a sudden, all those other pantheons out there, struggling in there conflicts against each other suddenly sense that Krynn has been found again, and that its' resident pantheon is weak after years of not being worshipped! The fields are ripe for harvest. And the petitioners of Krynn are such great sustenence that they can even cast divine magic from the heart, not reallying on belief!
In order garner those kinds of war-ending resources even good dieties of other pantheons would be begrudginly trying to take over.
Man that would be an awesome module! The second War of All-Souls begins!
I've always wondered how one continent full of people (okay, maybe two or three, but still) can generate enough energy to sustain a full pantheon, ...and that its' resident pantheon is weak after years of not being worshipped!...
This is an illustration of how a unified multiverse is restrictive. That's not how the pantheon of Krynn gets its power, but it would have to be if the multiverse rules said so. I like the idea that not all worlds work the same way.
I believe its the cause of many strange retcons in the current Dragonance cosmology, most notabley that awful appendix on the gods at the end of the War of Souls Trilogy. I can only assume such counter-intuitive drivel was the result of Paladine's memories going now that he was mortal.
The change of Chaos to Ionthas is one of the many retcons that have stemmed from this cosmological retcon, among a ton of others....seriously, I could geek out and rant for hours on this, but it would just be that....a rant.
Don't worry. It's been cut from the paperback and completely disavowed.
I'm still not entirely certain why Tracy wanted to include it in the first place.
Matthew L. Martin
Hey, man, do what you've got to do. Yes i have read Holy Orders (good job, kudos).
Thanks. Several people helped.
However, the general shift in 3e was, from what i hear, orginally the mastermind of just one designer and others have followed. Rather than aknowledge this as the trend in RPG's, I just see the idea of one designer, one person's viewpoint forced upon the majority.
I've heard a lot of things, but I wouldn't put too much stock in them at this point. They're only fuel for griping.
Cheers,
Cam
Don't worry. It's been cut from the paperback and completely disavowed.
I'm still not entirely certain why Tracy wanted to include it in the first place.
Matthew L. Martin
If it's any consolation, I rather liked the appendix... ;)
This is an illustration of how a unified multiverse is restrictive. That's not how the pantheon of Krynn gets its power, but it would have to be if the multiverse rules said so. I like the idea that not all worlds work the same way.
It's implied that Krynnish dieties get their power from mortal worship, making whatever worship system used by the general D&D pantheons at the very least-*very* similiar to the Krynnish one.
It's implied that Krynnish dieties get their power from mortal worship, making whatever worship system used by the general D&D pantheons at the very least-*very* similiar to the Krynnish one.
They don't get their power from mortal worship. If this were true, they would not have withdrawn from the world after the Cataclysm.
Rather, they require mortals to do their work for them for the most part, as mortals have free will and their power to choose drives the world forward. This isn't the same as "X worshipers = X strength of deity."
Cheers,
Cam
They don't get their power from mortal worship. If this were true, they would not have withdrawn from the world after the Cataclysm... This isn't the same as "X worshipers = X strength of deity."
Cheers,
Cam
To support Cam's point of view on this one, not only would they have winked out of being during the Cataclysm, it would stand to reason that if the dieties of Krynn had to depend totaly on the mortals for power, more than one would have just killed off a rivals mortal power base by now.
Many players and DM alike struggle with how to handle deities in their game, are they just really owerfull characters or do they depend on worshipers for power? Can a god be killed? and if so can a mortal kill a god? These last two were somewhat touched on already in DragonLance with Huma fighting the Dark Queen, he could bring her pain and discomfort, but not death.
I will admit I do not know how other worlds work, or the "offical" answers, but at it's core D&D is about those who play it, and it is a old tradition for gaming groups to make thier own house rules for things not covered in the books or items that they just don't agree with.
When it come to how gods get their power, what makes one stronger than another and all those other divine issues, I thing every DM has to take her/his own stand for the world that group is playing in.
On a side note, crossing them over would lead to tons of people questioning Paladine/ Bahamat (sorry if spelled wrong) and Tiamat/ Dark Queen connections. That would be nasty, so I think for that sanity of all, we should not allow the divine access to other realms.
They don't get their power from mortal worship. If this were true, they would not have withdrawn from the world after the Cataclysm.
Rather, they require mortals to do their work for them for the most part, as mortals have free will and their power to choose drives the world forward. This isn't the same as "X worshipers = X strength of deity."
Cheers,
Cam
Hmmm....it's not the part that about the gods, and it is repeated in Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home, but here is a quote from the appendix (the copy of Souls III is at hand as opposed to the other) "As mortals revere the gods and pursue the acts of living faith, they channel power to the gods".
Also, the gods removed their clerics before the Catyclism, that's a strong indication that they needed something, and even if it isn't, As long as the gods all agreed to be weakened equally it wouldn't make a difference, that's part of the big deal with the evil gods starting back their cults a century or so before the other pantheons.
To support Cam's point of view on this one, not only would they have winked out of being during the Cataclysm, it would stand to reason that if the dieties of Krynn had to depend totaly on the mortals for power, more than one would have just killed off a rivals mortal power base by now.
They do. It's called Good vs. Evil. ;) Also, their would be no "winking out" because they are immortal, no matter how weakened.
Many players and DM alike struggle with how to handle deities in their game, are they just really owerfull characters or do they depend on worshipers for power? Can a god be killed? and if so can a mortal kill a god? These last two were somewhat touched on already in DragonLance with Huma fighting the Dark Queen, he could bring her pain and discomfort, but not death.
Again, immortal. This is a concept in Greek myth, as Ares would often get wounded but couldn't die so he just kept suffering and suffering until somebody took him back home for healing. One thing about myth or fiction that people have trouble understanding is that immortality is not the same thing as invulnerability.
I will admit I do not know how other worlds work, or the "offical" answers, but at it's core D&D is about those who play it, and it is a old tradition for gaming groups to make thier own house rules for things not covered in the books or items that they just don't agree with.
When it come to how gods get their power, what makes one stronger than another and all those other divine issues, I thing every DM has to take her/his own stand for the world that group is playing in.
Yes, that's true. But there comes a point at which a DM has house ruled and proclaimed from the mountain tops to the point that the game has fundamentally changed from what it was. It's just my opinion, but my push is that *this* is one of those things.
On a side note, crossing them over would lead to tons of people questioning Paladine/ Bahamat (sorry if spelled wrong) and Tiamat/ Dark Queen connections. That would be nasty, so I think for that sanity of all, we should not allow the divine access to other realms.
Well, that debate is over as it is. In the campaign setting book, the Istarin names for both Paladine and Takhisis are the phonetic Bahomet and Tiamat, respectivly, which is actually another sign that DL exists in a single, varied multiverse.
Don't get me wrong, if some players arn't familiar with the way things used to be, then by all means, keep it simple. 3e is tailored to fit you blokes. The problem is how those of us from before, who liked the grand mythos of the cosmos, the way it orgininally was. (And....I'm pretty sure we're the silent majority).
If you can't play it like that, then don't. But if you can, you should .
Hmmm....it's not the part that about the gods, and it is repeated in Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home, but here is a quote from the appendix (the copy of Souls III is at hand as opposed to the other) "As mortals revere the gods and pursue the acts of living faith, they channel power to the gods".
As we said earlier, the Appendix to Vanished Moon's been set aside. Holy Orders of the Stars takes the official viewpoint.
Well, that debate is over as it is. In the campaign setting book, the Istarin names for both Paladine and Takhisis are the phonetic Bahomet and Tiamat, respectivly, which is actually another sign that DL exists in a single, varied multiverse.
Paladine and Takhisis are greater gods, while Bahamut and Tiamat are lesser gods. It's well-established now that they're not the same, despite the fact that the Chromatic Dragon and Platinum Dragon were the original inspiration for Krynn's deities.
Don't get me wrong, if some players arn't familiar with the way things used to be, then by all means, keep it simple. 3e is tailored to fit you blokes. The problem is how those of us from before, who liked the grand mythos of the cosmos, the way it orgininally was. (And....I'm pretty sure we're the silent majority).
Of course, those of us who liked it how it originally was, before Manual of the Planes and Tales of the Lance tried to place Krynn's pantheon in the Great Wheel, are pleased that it's been restored to its unique and separate state.
Cheers,
Cam
Well, that debate is over as it is. In the campaign setting book, the Istarin names for both Paladine and Takhisis are the phonetic Bahomet and Tiamat, respectivly, which is actually another sign that DL exists in a single, varied multiverse.
The questioning I was refering to is beyond shared aspects, but differing power levels and if Paladine has turned mortal, than is there still a Platinum Dragon in other realms?
They might have had used the names,that is fine and logical, but they were greater gods on Krynn and the dragon gods are lesser gods in other realms.
Even if that one could be easly explained, then logic would lead to the question of since they are no longer dieties on Krynn, how would that affect other realms?
That is another one of the reasons I support the idea of seperate realms for the divine.
And while many choose to use Greek/Roman mythos as a base for their realms, one must remember that the gods in Greek/Roman mythos were not bound to their worshipers for power, and they were agelss, not truly immortal. For some of them were killed, the whole eating ones offspring/parents, cannibalism (while might not always be murder is at least manslaughter in most states) does mean death.
While they might not have been mentioned in Dragon Lance, other realms have had "dead gods". While true immortatlity would mean it could not die, and that has been the assumption for the gods of Dragon Lance.
Logic would also lead to such questions such as if Paladine and Bahamut were one and the same, and (ignoring the lesser vs. greater issue already mentioned) does that mean Bahamut is truly immortal, while not all the other gods in the Forgotten Realms are?
Hence for sanites sake, while allowing mortals to cross realms sounds like a great idea, the divine must be kept seperate. A mortal explorer or two is fine, mabey even a demon knowing of the seperate realms, but the truly divine should not have access to each to each other. And if are are to look to the Greek for this, let's not forget what happend when the Romans conquered Greece, or the religous strife between the Egytpians and the Romans.
When one patheon incounters another bad things happen, while this is historically proven, in a realm of high fantasy this would prove very true. After all how would Lolth react to finding all the drow on Krynn are dead? And gods of magic, Krynn has a special set up to magic that other gods of realms might not agree with.
I am not just thinking of key characters, such as Lord Soth, crossing boundries here but of beings who can create and destroy life with a thought, gods are truly powerful. But not all gods are created equally, and this would become apperent very quickly when gods started battling. And while that would be an intresting concept, there would be no true winner as one realm or another would be lost.
The questioning I was refering to is beyond shared aspects, but differing power levels and if Paladine has turned mortal, than is there still a Platinum Dragon in other realms?
They might have had used the names,that is fine and logical, but they were greater gods on Krynn and the dragon gods are lesser gods in other realms.
Even if that one could be easly explained, then logic would lead to the question of since they are no longer dieties on Krynn, how would that affect other realms?
That is another one of the reasons I support the idea of seperate realms for the divine.
And while many choose to use Greek/Roman mythos as a base for their realms, one must remember that the gods in Greek/Roman mythos were not bound to their worshipers for power, and they were agelss, not truly immortal. For some of them were killed, the whole eating ones offspring/parents, cannibalism (while might not always be murder is at least manslaughter in most states) does mean death.
While they might not have been mentioned in Dragon Lance, other realms have had "dead gods". While true immortatlity would mean it could not die, and that has been the assumption for the gods of Dragon Lance.
Logic would also lead to such questions such as if Paladine and Bahamut were one and the same, and (ignoring the lesser vs. greater issue already mentioned) does that mean Bahamut is truly immortal, while not all the other gods in the Forgotten Realms are?
Hence for sanites sake, while allowing mortals to cross realms sounds like a great idea, the divine must be kept seperate. A mortal explorer or two is fine, mabey even a demon knowing of the seperate realms, but the truly divine should not have access to each to each other. And if are are to look to the Greek for this, let's not forget what happend when the Romans conquered Greece, or the religous strife between the Egytpians and the Romans.
When one patheon incounters another bad things happen, while this is historically proven, in a realm of high fantasy this would prove very true. After all how would Lolth react to finding all the drow on Krynn are dead? And gods of magic, Krynn has a special set up to magic that other gods of realms might not agree with.
I am not just thinking of key characters, such as Lord Soth, crossing boundries here but of beings who can create and destroy life with a thought, gods are truly powerful. But not all gods are created equally, and this would become apperent very quickly when gods started battling. And while that would be an intresting concept, there would be no true winner as one realm or another would be lost.
Well, I don't mean to toot my own horn, but in real life, I'm a mythologist. The gods in Greek myth were bound to their follower's in the practice of giving sacrifices, read the story Deucalion and Pyrrha, one of the objections to flooding the earth was where they were going to get sustenance. As for being eaten, they also could be disgorged, totally fine, though Zeus' first wife never got the opportunity.
And we can't quibble over "true immortality". Their's always going to be a catch, in the Greek mythos it appears to be the flint scythe of cronus, and in DL (and.....the rest of D&D...another sign!), it appears to be epic characters (even those with only 40 hp, some immortality indeed!). Or just being turned mortal.
And heres my thing on explaining the Paladine vs-Bahomet in my gaming groups: If you read Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home, it says that the HighGod put out a call to other beings to occupy the divine for the realm, ie, he put out a open "want ad" in the Beyond for....now this is the important pre-3e part, pre-existing dieties. Only Gilean and possibly Reox are dieties that come from other places (other than gods that were born there later).
Now here is where my stuff begins: Bahomet and Tiamat are one of the first to take up this call, and the HighGod bumps them up to Greater diety status for their role in the young world of Krynn. And so Paladine and Takhisis are born. So from a 2e perspective, as long as Paladine and Tak are acting as the kingship deities of Krynn, they are acting with the consent of the HighGod and Bam!-They're greater dieties while they are the Knight of the Rose/Fizban or the Dark Warrior/Dark Queen/Temptress, they're greater dieties. But-if they act as the Platinum Dragon or the Dragon of many colors and none, then they're just riding out their other portfolios and act as minor dieties.
And yes, as far as a multiversal perspective is concerned, Tiamat and Paladine would be gone now.
Oh, and Lolth would be fine-other than a few isolated cases, there are no drow on Krynn, Krynn being a comparitivly young world compared to others, the great elf schism had already happened.
Gellion, if you notice, the setup on Krynn is very similiar to the petitionor setup. They get bodies, they (for a small time) serve the gods upon Krynn, but---and this is the important part-they retain they're memories, again showing that the star matter the souls of the Krynnish folk are truly miraculous stuff.
As we said earlier, the Appendix to Vanished Moon's been set aside. Holy Orders of the Stars takes the official viewpoint.
Yeah, but like I said, I only lifted that from that book because it was at hand. The same info reguarding the gods within the cosmology is stated in Leaves.
Paladine and Takhisis are greater gods, while Bahamut and Tiamat are lesser gods. It's well-established now that they're not the same, despite the fact that the Chromatic Dragon and Platinum Dragon were the original inspiration for Krynn's deities.
Tee Hee. The second part debunks the first! :P And then there's the Istarin names I mentioned before.
Of course, those of us who liked it how it originally was, before Manual of the Planes and Tales of the Lance tried to place Krynn's pantheon in the Great Wheel, are pleased that it's been restored to its unique and separate state.
Before Tales of the Lance? Que?
Yoda:"To a dark line of thought, this brings us". DL has been a shared universe a lot longer than it has been a......whatever the opposite is called.... :embarrass
The current holders of the license are proceeding as if it is not part of a shared cosmology. It's that way because they say it is. In the future, other creators of DL material may change that, at which point it will be as they say it is.
Edit: Your home game can throw this out the window completely, of course. Nobody's campaign is 100% true canon. Game designers know and expect this.
Tee Hee. The second part debunks the first! :P
Gimli clearly inspired Flint, but that doesn't mean that Gimli and Flint are the same.
About Lord Soth in ravenloft:
Lord Soth in Ravenloft was, in my view, one of the few famous "crossovers" that got a great result. Most people (here in Brazil), know lord soth from the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, where he was ONE of the most popular npcs. At time Soth appeared on Dragonlance he was mainly "one other badass", but nil compared to npcs like Ariakas, Kitiara, Rastlin and many others. (This is true if u see that soth didn´t even be mentionend in Dragons of the new age and Dragon of summer flammes).
them what TSR managed to do: bring a "less" famous npc to Ravenloft, to give the setting one more dark evil being. But James Lowder made a excepcional good novel, and Ravenloft Designers make a badass adventure for him (When the Black roses blooms). What happened? Lord soth became as famous as Azalin, as Strahd, becoming somewhat a iconic in the Ravenloft Setting.
But like many minds, the Dragonlance designers didn´t liked the change, why? nobody knows.
Them TSR went down and Wizard came in. Result: Dark sun, Spelljammer, Ravenloft and others settings went to the archieves. The focus of D&D was now Forgotten Realms and a new setting (Eberron), with licensed Dragonlance running.
in other words: one of the famous npcs of Dragonlance would sink in oblivion with end of Ravenloft (eventually this setting continued under White Wolf, until definitive end). Solution: bring him back to Dragonlance and save the npc. Them arises the Spectre of the black rose bringing him back.
But even with soth back, dragonlance designers seemed to have NO plans for him, and the debate soth ravenloft x dragonlance still existed. Solution: he dies in the War of Souls and finish.
If you read the part where he dies in war of Souls, and read the ending events of Spectre of the Black rose, you see that the autors made, willingly or not, a possibility to "connect" events (expressions like "i saw here face in the darkness", and others let a ambigous interpretation). Of course, it was a horrible way to end lord Soth, but well.
And personally, i wont be happy if dragonlance designers decide to make a novel explaining soths "missing years", if this would result in a novel like the one in the warriors series entitled Lord Soth.
About campaign crossovers:
it seems that the mind of dragonlance still want to be independent cosmo, far far away from other settings, but there is a little flaw in this way of thinking: as a D&D product it is still linked to the core books and acessories (especially the manual of planes).
Trying to make it independent, a "stand alone setting" will them incur in the necessity of bringing a own manual of the planes and many other acessories (like a PHB and a own DMG) and i believe WOTC wont be happy if this occurs.
i think there are crossovers that are cool and should be "incorporated" (like the Dragon Overlords that not from krynn), and other not (anything related to the mad idea of Spelljammer). Because they wont harm the setting, since Krynn in only one more planet in the universe of D&D.
In the end, it will be in the hand of the DM decide if it happened or not, and defenitively for me and my players, lord soth was in Ravenloft.
..but there is a little flaw in this way of thinking: as a D&D product it is still linked to the core books and acessories (especially the manual of planes).
Things change, I guess.
The important thing here is that this is a created, fictional world. There's no "real" DL that we're debating about - the question of whether it exists in a D&D multiverse or not does not have a "true" answer in the same sense that real history or science looks for non-arbitrary non-subjective answers. It's not as if anything unexpected will occur to make current DL authors to go "Crikey! That's Hextor! Talking to Elminster! In Palanthas! Guarded by a half drow-half warforged, no mistake! I guess we were wrong, guys!"
The current holders of the license are proceeding as if it is not part of a shared cosmology. It's that way because they say it is. In the future, other creators of DL material may change that, at which point it will be as they say it is.
Edit: Your home game can throw this out the window completely, of course. Nobody's campaign is 100% true canon. Game designers know and expect this.
Gimli clearly inspired Flint, but that doesn't mean that Gimli and Flint are the same.
Other than that they were dwarves...but...sorry, don't see it. It's entirely one thing to have a similiar character and one that is obviously the same, even going by the same monikers like "Platinum Dragon" and whatnot...
And I already said something on who runs the setting making mandates. I said that its' a "shared universe". Dragonlance is in a unique position.
Most of the kind folks who make the wonderful d20 books (again, kudos) mostly come from that fine site dl3e.com. The game was over and a bunch of fans saved the series, continueing to post 3e conversions and continuing to post new info on the site. Then, a miracle occurred. DL got a new lease on life and, wouldn't you know it, the people given the task of writing the books came largly from that website! This is awesome. The campaign setting was in the hands of the fans that loved it so dear. However, there is one, tiny, miniscule flaw.
The line between Fanon and Canon. In any group of fans, they're are some that are going to develope their own ideas and and theorys on a particular franchise they like. That's okay. This usually stays far away from those who make materials, the canon folks stick to what's already been established. No spin.
Here we have an interesting situation, for the first time a franchise is in the hands of a particular fan group. Don't get me wrong, though, nine times out of ten, it's a winning combination. What I don't like is that tenth time.
For me, its the cosmology. That's just the way it is for me. It's not a matter of a fictional campaign setting, its well....hmm....an analogy.
Say George Lucas picked a really good Star Wars fan site walked up to them with a dumpster full of money and said "Make all the new Star Wars movies from now on". Now, even if these guys are awesome fans who really now there stuff, there are a few things that they are going to do that is going to grate on the nerves of fandom. Say they were Boba Fett fans and had an entire re-spinning of the setting to focus on Scoundrel/Bounty Hunter types, totally ignoring any Jedi. These kinds of splits are pretty common in Star Wars fandom....
I know I'm making a strange complaint, but, did I at least get my point across?
let me throw my 2 cents about this matter (sorry for the bad english):
I would like to thank you Kingpaladin, everybodies two cents is welcome.
Personaly I would like to see a DL PHB and other supporting books, but that is something that we will have to wait and see if it come out under open gaming or by the licinced publishers.
As for novels, I to would love to read a Lord Soth the lost years ( hey Cam you know anyone you could mention that to?)
I loved the novels of him in Ravenloft, and always wondered if his return had any impact on Krynn between the wars, or if he never left what did he do between the wars?
Other than that they were dwarves...but...sorry, don't see it.
My point is that fiction inspires other fiction. Great characters inspire people to create other characters. It doesn't make them the same entity in some shared universe.
I know I'm making a strange complaint, but, did I at least get my point across?
I know what you're saying, yes, but I think you greatly overestimate the power of the freelancers.
Edit: That said, of course anytime a setting changes, there will be people who liked it the way it was and don't like the changes so much. There's nothing at all wrong with setting up your own campaign the way you prefer - like I said, designers expect and generally support that sort of adaptation. The only thing I really don't grok is this idea that no, it still is the way it used to be, which is very different than a subjective preference for one way or the other. I think that's what I can't quite wrap my brain around.
My point is that fiction inspires other fiction.
I know as a DM I have allowed non-D&D of works of fiction to inspire my games, even Monty Python.
As for freelancers, where would the game be with out them? They may not make ground shaking, core rules changes, but if there was no need for them they would not being getting paid. After all many well astablished writers in the D&D world started as freelancers. While they might only be sharing their view or writing a "what if", the fact that almost anyone could submit somthing to Wizards, and get it published and shared is something else special about the D&D community. Nobody starts at the top, and everybody has towork their way up.
As for fearing a bunch of fans changing a core setting, if it happens maybe it is a mandate of the people who are buy the product, or an experiment to see if they like it better. After all who remembers "New Coke", if a change is mad and it gets a huge negitive response, I am sure it would be undone. As great as Wizards is, they still have to make a profit after all.
Here we have an interesting situation, for the first time a franchise is in the hands of a particular fan group.
Dragonlance is an official licensed property. It is licensed from Wizards of the Coast to Margaret Weis' company, and all product and setting direction are overseen by her and approved by Wizards of the Coast.
Yes, a lot of other people work on the product as freelance writers and designers, and we're all fans, but it is not "in the hands of a fan group."
So, yes - it's the way it is because the current license holders and Wizards of the Coast say it is.
Cheers,
Cam
Yes, that is true, but I guess my main point is that the gods of Krynn(Well, the good and neutral ones anyways, heck even some evil ones) dont view their followers as resources, they seem to actually care about them. I look at it like this, the gods of Kryn view themselves as parents, their job is to prepare their children for the outside world( whatever a souls fate is beyond Krynn). So, they do their best to be good parents so that their children can be successful in the outside world. Absorbing their souls wound be counter productive.
The reason souls from Krynn keep their memories is so they can use them in the outside world. It would be pointless to delete them as that would pretty much be the equivalent in our world as if a parent raised their child, taught them everything they know, and had them go through high school, and then completely brain wiped them, which is what happens in the Great Wheel Cosmology.
On Krynn though, you need not even follow a deity to go beyond Krynn. Sorcerers and Mystics I guess you could view as children who grew up without any parents, but manage through Self-Reliance and inner strength and turn out fine in the end.
Dragonlance is an official licensed property. It is licensed from Wizards of the Coast to Margaret Weis' company, and all product and setting direction are overseen by her and approved by Wizards of the Coast.
Yes, a lot of other people work on the product as freelance writers and designers, and we're all fans, but it is not "in the hands of a fan group."
So, yes - it's the way it is because the current license holders and Wizards of the Coast say it is.
Cheers,
Cam
We're on the same page, but I think I need to elaborate my point. As it is this thread is kind of getting iffy, so I'll just post my last comment about the subject here before good people's feelings are hurt. Here was my point about the fanon canon thing:
Before there was a fan group running dl3e, a non-liscensed fan site for a dead campaign setting.
Then the campaign setting got out, and the authors picked folks from this particular website to do the majority of the game design on most of the gaming books.
This is actually a new concept. This was the first time fanon, viewpoints and concepts invented by fans, became the new canon of the series, things like the magius written language and cosmological attitudes, have become the new officialdom. In all of fandom, something like this has NEVER occurred. Nine times out of ten, this rules. We get awful appendices thrown out, and kick A** materials published for the setting. Great. But all I'm saying is that tenth time, there are some growing pains.
Before there was a fan group running dl3e, a non-liscensed fan site for a dead campaign setting.
Then the campaign setting got out, and the authors picked folks from this particular website to do the majority of the game design on most of the gaming books.
This is actually a new concept. This was the first time fanon, viewpoints and concepts invented by fans, became the new canon of the series, things like the magius written language and cosmological attitudes, have become the new officialdom. In all of fandom, something like this has NEVER occurred.
Wrong.
It has happened before, in something very close to this.
When the Ravenloft setting was licensed to White Wolf, the folks in charge of it at WotC recommended that the staff of the Secrets of the Kargatane be tapped for design work. Staffers from that site wrote the core book and about half of the supplements.
Indeed, the fans took charge to a greater degree on Ravenloft. The original developer on RL3E had no professional experience with the setting, and his successors had only done some freelance work on it. With DL, on the other hand, Margaret Weis & Jamie Chambers have been running the show since the DLCS.
Matthew L. Martin
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Yes, a lot of other people work on the product as freelance writers and designers, and we're all fans, but it is not "in the hands of a fan group."
If fans are the only people writing stuff for the campaign, then it is a fangroup controlled setting. Yes it may have to be approved by "Officials" but it is still being thought up and written by fans. It would be different if half the staff were fans of some other setting but were writing for DL. Or if they were not fans of any setting at all. The only stuff being written for DL that may not be fangroup controlled are the novels. But even then the stats for these stories will most likely fall into the hands of the fangroup for conversion into stats.
So as Cam says, Cheers. :D :D :D :D :D
No offense Cam but you said it yourself
Originally posted by Cam Banks
If fans are the only people writing stuff for the campaign, then it is a fangroup controlled setting. Yes it may have to be approved by "Officials" but it is still being thought up and written by fans. It would be different if half the staff were fans of some other setting but were writing for DL. Or if they were not fans of any setting at all. The only stuff being written for DL that may not be fangroup controlled are the novels. But even then the stats for these stories will most likely fall into the hands of the fangroup for conversion into stats.
So as Cam says, Cheers. :D :D :D :D :D
Both Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman have at times called themselves "fans" of Dragonlance. I guess that makes everything they wrote "fan fiction" then... :P
If fans are the only people writing stuff for the campaign, then it is a fangroup controlled setting.
Writing and game design is actually a source of income for me (helps pay for my eldest son's daycare) and while I am a fan of the setting, I wouldn't say that my contributions are fan contributions. As a freelancer I work to an outline that the license holders come up with, I'm held to a set of professional standards set forth by the license holders, and I'm expected to write what the license holders want me to write.
Insomuch as everybody involved in the writing, editing, publishing, and marketing of Dragonlance is a fan of the setting, then sure, it's in the hands of the fans. But that's a pretty broad label and I don't think it's quite the same definition you'd normally expect it to apply to.
Cheers,
Cam
Writing and game design is actually a source of income for me (helps pay for my eldest son's daycare) and while I am a fan of the setting, I wouldn't say that my contributions are fan contributions. As a freelancer I work to an outline that the license holders come up with, I'm held to a set of professional standards set forth by the license holders, and I'm expected to write what the license holders want me to write.
I do not think I would want it any other way, besides Cma's daycare issues, I do not think I would want people who do not have feelings for the game working on it. Though I am drawing on my experiance in the Army, I have found that having people who like and care about their work they do a better job.
I do not know what work Cam has done, but on here he sounds like he really likes his job (lucky him).
I said that this has never happened before and was corrected. Apparently White Wolf used some fan site dudes as well. I don't know what precisely happened with Ravenloft, but at the very least, the buzz was that it was a debacle. Whether this had anything to do with the fanon vs. canon thing, I don't know, but at the very least it is beyond my current scope to talk about.
Writing and game design is actually a source of income for me (helps pay for my eldest son's daycare) and while I am a fan of the setting, I wouldn't say that my contributions are fan contributions. As a freelancer I work to an outline that the license holders come up with, I'm held to a set of professional standards set forth by the license holders, and I'm expected to write what the license holders want me to write.
Insomuch as everybody involved in the writing, editing, publishing, and marketing of Dragonlance is a fan of the setting, then sure, it's in the hands of the fans. But that's a pretty broad label and I don't think it's quite the same definition you'd normally expect it to apply to.
Cheers,
Cam
Yes, that would be a broad definition. That's not the definition we're using here. No, the definition here would be people from a website (cite, "fangroup"), got hired on, en masse, from that website, to write the books. Eventually, things that were originally a part of the fan view of the website (like the magius written language, of the top of my head) inevitably begin finding themselves in the books.
Some old fogeys, like me, find a tiny, miniscule amount of those things in otherwise fantastic work to be....a little itchy.
And in this situation, its become a rare situation in which some "fanon" actually evolves into what is "canon" for the series.
That's it. That's essentially the arguement.
Capiche?
Eventually, things that were originally a part of the fan view of the website (like the magius written language, of the top of my head) inevitably begin finding themselves in the books.
Some old fogeys, like me, find a tiny, miniscule amount of those things in otherwise fantastic work to be....a little itchy.
And in this situation, its become a rare situation in which some "fanon" actually evolves into what is "canon" for the series.
I think you're confusing "fanon" with "creative license used by writers."
The entire body of Dragonlance work essentially comes from somebody deciding to make up something and putting it into a novel or game book. You can be sure that in the 22 years of Dragonlance products, dozens and dozens of contributors were formerly fans of the setting, the novels, the games, or whatever, and found paying gigs. Chris Pierson, Jamie Chambers, Rick Knaak, et al were all once fans or enthusiasts and have added their own creations and twists on the original modules into the setting.
Given that the "spidery language of magic" has been around since the beginning, I don't quite get how you'd think that was something the fan sites had determined for themselves and somehow convinced the powers that be to add into official continuity. Even if it was, however, it's no less an official element for its inclusion than anything else.
¿Comprende?
Cheers,
Cam
Canon
"In the context of fiction, the canon of a fictional universe comprises those novels, stories, films, etc. that are considered to be genuine (or "official"), and those events, characters, settings, etc. that are considered to have inarguable existence within the fictional universe. Usually items that are considered canon come from the original source of the fictional universe while non-canon material comes from adaptations or unofficial items. Generally, Expanded Universes are not considered canon, though there are exceptions which are considered near-canon, or in the case of Star Wars, the Expanded Universe is considered full canon. By analogy with the idea of a canon of Scripture, things which are not canon are considered "apocryphal". See Biblical canon. In Layman's terms, one could basically say that something that is canon is something that actually happened.
Fan fiction was never considered canon, until the precendent shattering advent of the 1632 Universe in February 2000 by Eric Flint, wherein fans and other established authors were invited on the internet forum Baen's Bar to shape the multiverse and the fan-fic once vetted is itself published in the various Grantville Gazettes, themselves under the direct editorial control of Flint and an 1632 editorial board. This is an ongoing processes that apparently will continue indefinitely as the series continues to burgeon in popularity.
Sometimes, however, events or characterizations portrayed in fan-fiction can become so influential that they are respected in fiction written by many different authors, and may be mistaken for canonical facts by fans. This is referred to as "fanon". The use of fan-fiction to fill gaps or continuity errors in canon is derisively called "fanwanking," or "fanwank". (The terms fanon and fanwank can apply to officially licensed works as well.)
Canonicity of fiction is a distinctly modern idea, since earlier ages, before the current ideas of intellectual property came about, did not distinguish between "official" and "unofficial" sources of stories.
A great deal of the interest and controversy over canonicity comes from the Star Wars franchise, because of the unique-for-its-time goal of derivative works such as Star Wars books to be completely in continuity with each other and with the Star Wars movies."
and fanon
"Fanon is a fact or ongoing situation related to a television program, book, movie, or video game that has been used so much by fan writers or among the fandom that it has been more or less established as having happened in the fictional world, but it has not actually been established as having happened on the show, book, movie or game itself. Fanon is a portmanteau word of fan and canon.
The term is sometimes used pejoratively by purists to refer to such explanations as faulty or illogical given the nature of a story, or "common lore" copied amongst fans, especially in webpage proliferation, that actually contradicts a simpler explanation that was even alluded to in canon. This is especially common for foreign works which are sometimes mistranslated or to when backstory and exposition elsewhere in a work has not been ported over (for example, manga that was associated with a commercial anime, but of which only one has been translated.)
Fanon is sometimes well known by creators and may even be accepted as true (or at least as reasonable an explanation as any) to something they have not explicitly explained. On the other hand, some creators of serial works introduce facts in subsequent installments of their work which invalidate specific fanon.
In a series with a substantial Expanded Universe (official, but not necessarily canon, additions to the series proper), such as Star Wars, Star Trek, or Doctor Who, elements of fanon will sometimes become established as part of the expanded canon; this is particularly common when fans become contributors to the Expanded Universe.
A variation of fanon is "personal canon", which is a set of "fanon"-like facts that are accepted as canon by an individual fan or a group of fans. Proponents of "fanon" or "personal canon" have been known to be offended when these terms are used, as "fanon" facts have often become better accepted than canon. This is widespread among Star Trek fans; for example, the prequel TV series Star Trek: Enterprise is rejected by many Trek fans on the basis that it violates "fanon" regarding the history of the Federation (rather than canon facts seen on earlier series). Similarly, some Trek fans have also seen fit to reject and "decanonize" individual episodes or films that don't fit with their vision of the Star Trek universe (or, alternately, the perceived vision of the late Star Trek creator, Gene Roddenberry). Some consider such a selective view elitism, or simply an egotistical way to label stories one simply didn't like very much. Most recently, many Star Trek fans have indicated that they choose not to accept the finale episode of Enterprise as canon, for reasons ranging from anger over the fate of a major ongoing character to the fact that it was written by the series' unpopular creators to the perception of the episode as being insulting to fans of Enterprise (a perception shared by at least some of the Enterprise cast members)."
Now, its okay for folks who used to be fans to do this, but that's not the point. I'm saying its a little ticklish when an entire fangroup are allowed to plot the course, even though right now its only a minor issue.
Capiche?
Okay. I think its time we defined what canon and fanon is. From Wikipedia:
You did not just quote Wikipedia, that's like quoteing a crazy guy in the subway. That website is known not to be trust worthy as it's information can be posted by anybody with a computer. Many students have gotten bad grades by trusting that site.
While Wikidpedia might not be EVIL in the traditional sense, it is at least Chaotic Neutral, and you never know when it is gonna strike.
"I try to get out and de' keep draggin' me back in...."
I said that this has never happened before and was corrected. Apparently White Wolf used some fan site dudes as well. I don't know what precisely happened with Ravenloft, but at the very least, the buzz was that it was a debacle. Whether this had anything to do with the fanon vs. canon thing, I don't know, but at the very least it is beyond my current scope to talk about.
Yes, that would be a broad definition. That's not the definition we're using here. No, the definition here would be people from a website (cite, "fangroup"), got hired on, en masse, from that website, to write the books. Eventually, things that were originally a part of the fan view of the website (like the magius written language, of the top of my head) inevitably begin finding themselves in the books.
Some old fogeys, like me, find a tiny, miniscule amount of those things in otherwise fantastic work to be....a little itchy.
And in this situation, its become a rare situation in which some "fanon" actually evolves into what is "canon" for the series.
That's it. That's essentially the arguement.
Capiche?
The 'debacle' with Ravenloft had more to do with the problems of material produced by the developers and several other writers who weren't part of any organized 'fan group', especially the professional developers and their handling of the 3.5 revision.
And I agree with Cam (make a note of it on your calendars, folks
)--it seems that what you're objecting to is that the setting is growing and evolving, and some fans are being tapped to play a role in that evolution. It's been happening for years; Star Trek accepted outside script submissions for several years, after all.Now, I don't care much for the way the setting has been developed since the 3.5 launch and the War of Souls, but that has nothing to do with the 'fans'--heck, I was on the fringes of the fan group, and have uncredited material in the DLCS alongside a lot of those guys. (Ever wonder why Majere's deity writeup seems so out of kilter? It was written under the assumption that the Appendix was still canon.) Indeed, I'm pleased that they're getting a chance to do something with the setting they love, even if I don't love it anymore. (Most of my complaints are with underlying assumptions of the setting that are only now being brought to light--with the guidance of its creator.)
Like it or dislike it as you will, but to assume that it's because 'fans are getting to write things' without reference to the content of what they're writing seems a bit silly.
Matthew L. Martin, (Ex-)Fan Contributor
You did not just quote Wikipedia, that's like quoteing a crazy guy in the subway. That website is known not to be trust worthy as it's information can be posted by anybody with a computer. Many students have gotten bad grades by trusting that site.
While Wikidpedia might not be EVIL in the traditional sense, it is at least Chaotic Neutral, and you never know when it is gonna strike.
Like anything, books or otherwise, always make sure you have a source. There's actually quite the debate raging in achedamia, whether or not information should be made accessable to common folks, as you just said. But that's conscidered more acedemic snobbery as the problems with wik are actually suprisingly low. Any students you might have thought got bad grades probably got them for using wik as a source rather than what that info was.
Anyway,
The 'debacle' with Ravenloft had more to do with the problems of material produced by the developers and several other writers who weren't part of any organized 'fan group', especially the professional developers and their handling of the 3.5 revision.
And I agree with Cam (make a note of it on your calendars, folks )--it seems that what you're objecting to is that the setting is growing and evolving, and some fans are being tapped to play a role in that evolution. It's been happening for years; Star Trek accepted outside script submissions for several years, after all.
Like it or dislike it as you will, but to assume that it's because 'fans are getting to write things' without reference to the content of what they're writing seems a bit silly.
If that was my arguement, then yes, it would be silly. But that's not it. It's that a *particular* fan group was tapped, the fine folks at dl3e (now nexus).
Fans (in general) okay. A particular fangroup pushing its fanon into canon=still okay, but there are a few finer points that are.....itchy.
That's it. That's all I was saying. Not a big deal.
Wikipedia rules! Down with white tower elitist-thinking!
Capiche?
If that was my arguement, then yes, it would be silly. But that's not it. It's that a *particular* fan group was tapped, the fine folks at dl3e (now nexus).
Fans (in general) okay. A particular fangroup pushing its fanon into canon=still okay, but there are a few finer points that are.....itchy.
Okay. You keep saying this. What are you talking about? The fan group from whom we freelance designers, writers, mapmakers, and illustrators were drawn from had about as many differing opinions and thoughts on the setting as it was possible to have. There are times we don't agree on anything - as a fan group.
As freelancers, it's all in the hands of the license holders, who know how to make the best use of the people who know and understand the setting. If you're getting itchy, the irritation's not coming from this direction.
Cheers,
Cam
After all who remembers "New Coke",
My friends, this is what they serve to drink in the Abyss. Lead a good life, folks. ;)
Okay. You keep saying this. What are you talking about? The fan group from whom we freelance designers, writers, mapmakers, and illustrators were drawn from had about as many differing opinions and thoughts on the setting as it was possible to have. There are times we don't agree on anything - as a fan group.
LOL! That's an understatement. ;)
I'm going to post my thoughts on this thread in a bit. I've largely been ignoring it, but I think I should say something since the Nexus has been mentioned several times.
Canon has been debated as far back as I can remember, and I don't doubt that it will continue for years to come. Yet, to me, it's a bit of a silly argument.
Since the inception of the Nexus, I've maintained that all points of view of the World of Krynn are valid. All of us have our likes and dislikes about Dragonlance, and we don't always agree with one another. Some are fans of classic Dragonlance, some are fans of the Fifth Age. Some are fans of Ansalon, and some are fans of Taladas. Despite our different tastes, we share one thing in common - a love of Dragonlance, a setting that is a patchwork quilt of adventure.
Canon comes across to me as a forced law of what is "true," at least in the context of a fictional world. The irony doesn't escape me. It's hard to maintain a sense of continuity in a setting that has had so many cooks putting their hand in the pot. Add on 20 years, and the waters get a bit muddy.
We have differing views on whether or not Lord Soth went to Ravenloft. One camp says he never did, and the other says that it happened. If we impose what is canon here, then one camp is happy and the other is not.
So why impose canon? Do we not all have different views on things? Is it not true that one person's truth does not match another person's truth?
The key here is that we should, as Dragonlance fans, decide what we enjoy, and allow others to enjoy what they enjoy, even if it is different from what you like. We are here with myriad takes on Dragonlance. Is Krynn part of the Great Wheel? If you say it does, then sure! Or do you prefer Krynn to be separated from the TSR/WotC multiverse? That's fine too!
It's true that WotC and Sovereign Press will need to determine an inner continuity to keep stories as straight as possible. In the end, though, that should not affect what you, as the fan, consider to be your own personal truth.
So take my advice, and "fire" that canon. Get rid of it. Don't let anybody ever tell you what is and what isn't true. Only you can decide that for yourself.
One is the official continuity of the license holders and creators. This is decided by them, because it's what they make an attempt at adhering to when they write. It's not canon, because canon is determined by the end user i.e. the readers and fans of the product. But, it's something that is considered for the purposes of maintaining a sense of the product line being part of a greater whole. It is at times completely revised, but that's the nature of it.
Another is the canon of the fans, the "accepted body of work," which is to say the books and products and characters and ideas that the fans have, in general, accepted as being "true" so that they can have a meaningful discussion about the product line. Even if people disagree about some things, they generally have the idea that it's an unresolved or contentious item, and that eventually some kind of consensus may be reached, with the understanding that sub-groups of fandom won't accept it. Canon, as Margaret Weis herself says, has nothing to do with the creators.
The third and last thing is the canon of one's home campaign. This is where anything goes. In many cases the home campaign matches the official continuity for a time, until it diverts based on the events of the game. Elements that have been discarded by the fans or retroactively written out of continuity can be kept, often because it's just how the people in the home campaign prefer things. Folks who got a kick out of Spelljammer years ago come back to the game and want more of it now that the setting has advanced. In the absence of any Spelljammer product, they revert to how things were, convert old rules over, etc.
I consider continuity and canon to be separate things. I contribute to, and try to organize and strengthen, the official continuity of the setting. Whether what's written is accepted by the fans is another thing. If everybody decided that Dragons of a Midnight Sandwich was an awful book and completely contradicts everything, then a great many people won't accept it as canon, and eventually it gets ignored.
Canon can influence continuity, because the creators in general like to sell a product to their audience. However, it is by no means a limit on the creativity and storytelling needs of the creators, so at times they feel quite within their rights to rewrite continuity for the betterment of the story.
Cheers,
Cam
Fast forward, WotC buys out TSR, then Hasbro buys them out. They've inherited several gaming worlds, which was probably a bit overwhelming to them, so they decide to archive most of the worlds, and focus on a mere handful, being that the properties would be easier to manage, and therefore, more profitable. They wouldn't have to have their staff working on everything. Unfortunately, Dragonlance was scheduled to be one of the worlds to be archived. So the folks who would become SP stepped forward and offered to take over the reins of DL, with a nod to Hasbro that they still own the world. Hasbro grants this group the right to run with it. Hasbro has nothing to lose since their staff isn't writing for the world, they can only make profit, and if it fails, then they archive the world again.
I'm thinking W&H, being a large part of the reviving force for DL (especially since they created it) still had a proverbial chip on their shoulder- they wanted to finally wipe out any and all reference to Soth being in RL. So Hasbro shrugged their indifferent shoulders and said 'sure, whatever'. Thus current 'canon' is created.
Good news is, DL proved to be profitable after all, so Hasbro has hired a few novelists to carry on the line at least a little, and showed they might take on a more active role in the development of the world. If they come in and say officially, 'Soth went to Ravenloft', then he did. And it would be official. Of course, that would probably irk W&H something fierce. Best way to avoid that? Kill off the character. And surprise, it was done by none other than W&H. Threat solved.