Legends of the Twins book discussion thread - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Legends of the Twins book discussion thread

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Charles_Phipps
Feb 11, 2006 18:38:51 Got my copy today (but weirdly not my copy of Amber and Iron I ordered with it)
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Oh well. Looking over it. I am very pleased. Stats for all of the characters, the state of the world, plus a lot of information on time travel and alternate timelines.

While I would have preferred Raistlin to be 30th level (just ONNEEEEE level above Elminster) 28th level Magic user is still obscenely good for Krynn and I was very pleased with it. Truly he is the most powerful magius of all time.

What I *WASNT* pleased with was Par Salian having 20 levels. What the HELL? Salian, Ladonna, and Justinarius feared Raistlin when they're all up there? They should have just teamed up and killed him!

I thought they were around 13th-15th level honestly and frankly think that better represents the limits of "most" wizards.

Also, sadly there was no explanation for the King Priests' powers in the face of Paladin. No mysticism no nothing. Plus, he was still Lawful Good and no explanation for THAT either. I am most displeased.

Otherwise, a very solid book. I only wished they offered up a write up for a Raistlin who WASN'T a bad god (or at least Apocolyptic).
#2
cam_banks
Feb 11, 2006 21:48:20 I responded to you over on www.dragonlanceforums.com, but I forgot to mention that Par-Salian's actually 19th level. He has the Master of the Tower template, so if he were a PC he'd have an ECL of 21 and as an opponent his CR is 20, but he's only got 19 actual class levels. All three Heads of the Orders are therefore 1 level shy of 20th, and since Raistlin is CR 28 he's way out of their league. They'd need one more 19th level wizard to join in just to make up a standard 4-character party and even then he's 9 levels higher than their average party level. No chance.

Cheers,
Cam
#3
Charles_Phipps
Feb 11, 2006 22:58:25
I responded to you over on www.dragonlanceforums.com, but I forgot to mention that Par-Salian's actually 19th level. He has the Master of the Tower template, so if he were a PC he'd have an ECL of 21 and as an opponent his CR is 20, but he's only got 19 actual class levels. All three Heads of the Orders are therefore 1 level shy of 20th, and since Raistlin is CR 28 he's way out of their league. They'd need one more 19th level wizard to join in just to make up a standard 4-character party and even then he's 9 levels higher than their average party level. No chance.

Cheers,
Cam

Okay, I'll give you this. This is honestly true.

Overall I very much enjoyed the book but I gotta say, SOME writer has a mad on for Sturm. Sturm gets to be dead, a terrorist, or a broken knight who destroyed the world for failing to DIE at the High Clerist's tower. It's really pathetic.

You'd think that his living would be a GOOD thing in at least one of them.
#4
zombiegleemax
Feb 13, 2006 9:45:03
They'd need one more 19th level wizard to join in just to make up a standard 4-character party and even then he's 9 levels higher than their average party level. No chance.
Cam

Though then again, Raistlin at lvl 28 CL is towards the end of the Legends trilogy. If he was 28 at the end, what would he have been in the beginning of Legends when Par-Salian, Ladonna, and Justarius would be challenging him.

I guess the other thing that just makes me wonder is the whole CR thingy where people say 1 CL higher == 4 members of 1 CL lower. It just doesnt seem right. That a lvl 20 warrior can go toe to toe with 4 lvl 19 warriors just seems... a bit rediculous. Does a little higher BAP and 10 extra hitpoints REALLY make you 4x stronger?
#5
zombiegleemax
Feb 14, 2006 11:13:39 My opinion... No.

Serious,
******Spoiler******

Raist only has 44 hp, it takes 1 good delayed fireball (if that) to take him down. I'm not saying that he is going to go down like a b*tch but I'm sure that three prepared mages could get 44 damage in. IMHO

My only complaint is that Caramon is only lvl 14. I always saw him in the 17 or 18 area, but trust me he is by no means weak.
*****End Spoiler*****
#6
iltharanos
Feb 14, 2006 13:39:48 Being a sickly mage does tend to have its downfalls. ;)

I'm sure given Raistlin's prodigious magical powers he could always invest in a Con-boosting item or spell if he is expecting combat. I believe Cam's reasoning for the 44hp was so that despite Raistlin's power someone like Kharas could still theoretically take him down into unconsciousness/near death from a few well-placed axe hacks.
#7
zombiegleemax
Feb 14, 2006 16:06:30
Being a sickly mage does tend to have its downfalls. ;)
I believe Cam's reasoning for the 44hp was so that despite Raistlin's power someone like Kharas could still theoretically take him down into unconsciousness/near death from a few well-placed axe hacks.

Well I dont think we have an issue with his hitpoints but rather that even at 8 CRs higher, a party of 4 lvl 19s stand quite a good chance given how Raistlin is statted out, and even more so of a chance if that 8 CRs higher is at the end of Legends and not at the beginning.
#8
iltharanos
Feb 14, 2006 17:06:23
Well I dont think we have an issue with his hitpoints but rather that even at 8 CRs higher, a party of 4 lvl 19s stand quite a good chance given how Raistlin is statted out, and even more so of a chance if that 8 CRs higher is at the end of Legends and not at the beginning.

His hit points have a direct bearing on his challenge to lower level opponents. Although technically a 44hp (Con 9) Raistlin is the same challenge rating as an 152hp (Con 13 [Amulet of Health +4]) Raistlin, it's much more likely the 152 hp Raistlin can effectively survive an attack from a party of four level 19 characters.
#9
zombiegleemax
Feb 14, 2006 19:31:55
I'm sure given Raistlin's prodigious magical powers he could always invest in a Con-boosting item

Wrong!... IMO ¬¬

IRC Raist alwalys though magical items were for weak wizards and never had the need for any (with some exceptions: the staff of magius -though i think this was more a trophy for him- , the dragon orb, the cursed money and Fistandantilus' bloodstone). As the great wizard he was, he should always had been prepared with spells for the occasion, maybe this is the reason why he was a general wizard and not a specialist, he couldn't afford to loose acces to abjuration spells; and with a wise selection of feats (which i'll know in 11 days, can't wait for my book!!!) he could make up the lack of items.
#10
iltharanos
Feb 14, 2006 19:49:07
Wrong!... IMO ¬¬

IRC Raist alwalys though magical items were for weak wizards and never had the need for any (with some exceptions: the staff of magius -though i think this was more a trophy for him- , the dragon orb, the cursed money and Fistandantilus' bloodstone).

Where's it say that?

The only similar statement I recall Raistlin making about weak wizards were those wizards that relied on or had familiars, as he considered it weak for any wizard to be so tied to another living being.

As the great wizard he was, he should always had been prepared with spells for the occasion, maybe this is the reason why he was a general wizard and not a specialist, he couldn't afford to loose acces to abjuration spells; and with a wise selection of feats (which i'll know in 11 days, can't wait for my book!!!) he could make up the lack of items.

Besides the Staff of Magius and Dragon Orb he's also got the Dagger of Magius, spell scrolls, and Bracers of Armor. Raistlin's no fool, if it can benefit him, he'd do it, that includes investing in appropriate magic items.
#11
zombiegleemax
Feb 14, 2006 21:07:53 well I understand that he has 44 hp so that Kharas could 1-shot him, I'm just saying that the three leaders combined could down him. Oh and if that fourth member was a 19th lvl fighter... Well like I said, he wouldn't go down easy but all it takes in one good shot.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Charles_Phipps Feb 11, 2006 18:38:51	Got my copy today (but weirdly not my copy of Amber and Iron I ordered with it) > > > > > > > > > Oh well. Looking over it. I am very pleased. Stats for all of the characters, the state of the world, plus a lot of information on time travel and alternate timelines. While I would have preferred Raistlin to be 30th level (just ONNEEEEE level above Elminster) 28th level Magic user is still obscenely good for Krynn and I was very pleased with it. Truly he is the most powerful magius of all time. What I WASNT pleased with was Par Salian having 20 levels. What the HELL? Salian, Ladonna, and Justinarius feared Raistlin when they're all up there? They should have just teamed up and killed him! I thought they were around 13th-15th level honestly and frankly think that better represents the limits of "most" wizards. Also, sadly there was no explanation for the King Priests' powers in the face of Paladin. No mysticism no nothing. Plus, he was still Lawful Good and no explanation for THAT either. I am most displeased. Otherwise, a very solid book. I only wished they offered up a write up for a Raistlin who WASN'T a bad god (or at least Apocolyptic).
#2 cam_banks Feb 11, 2006 21:48:20	I responded to you over on www.dragonlanceforums.com, but I forgot to mention that Par-Salian's actually 19th level. He has the Master of the Tower template, so if he were a PC he'd have an ECL of 21 and as an opponent his CR is 20, but he's only got 19 actual class levels. All three Heads of the Orders are therefore 1 level shy of 20th, and since Raistlin is CR 28 he's way out of their league. They'd need one more 19th level wizard to join in just to make up a standard 4-character party and even then he's 9 levels higher than their average party level. No chance. Cheers, Cam
#3 Charles_Phipps Feb 11, 2006 22:58:25	I responded to you over on www.dragonlanceforums.com, but I forgot to mention that Par-Salian's actually 19th level. He has the Master of the Tower template, so if he were a PC he'd have an ECL of 21 and as an opponent his CR is 20, but he's only got 19 actual class levels. All three Heads of the Orders are therefore 1 level shy of 20th, and since Raistlin is CR 28 he's way out of their league. They'd need one more 19th level wizard to join in just to make up a standard 4-character party and even then he's 9 levels higher than their average party level. No chance. Cheers, Cam Okay, I'll give you this. This is honestly true. Overall I very much enjoyed the book but I gotta say, SOME writer has a mad on for Sturm. Sturm gets to be dead, a terrorist, or a broken knight who destroyed the world for failing to DIE at the High Clerist's tower. It's really pathetic. You'd think that his living would be a GOOD thing in at least one of them.
#4 zombiegleemax Feb 13, 2006 9:45:03	They'd need one more 19th level wizard to join in just to make up a standard 4-character party and even then he's 9 levels higher than their average party level. No chance. Cam Though then again, Raistlin at lvl 28 CL is towards the end of the Legends trilogy. If he was 28 at the end, what would he have been in the beginning of Legends when Par-Salian, Ladonna, and Justarius would be challenging him. I guess the other thing that just makes me wonder is the whole CR thingy where people say 1 CL higher == 4 members of 1 CL lower. It just doesnt seem right. That a lvl 20 warrior can go toe to toe with 4 lvl 19 warriors just seems... a bit rediculous. Does a little higher BAP and 10 extra hitpoints REALLY make you 4x stronger?
#5 zombiegleemax Feb 14, 2006 11:13:39	My opinion... No. Serious, ****Spoiler**** Raist only has 44 hp, it takes 1 good delayed fireball (if that) to take him down. I'm not saying that he is going to go down like a btch but I'm sure that three prepared mages could get 44 damage in. IMHO My only complaint is that Caramon is only lvl 14. I always saw him in the 17 or 18 area, but trust me he is by no means weak. **End Spoiler***
#6 iltharanos Feb 14, 2006 13:39:48	Being a sickly mage does tend to have its downfalls. ;) I'm sure given Raistlin's prodigious magical powers he could always invest in a Con-boosting item or spell if he is expecting combat. I believe Cam's reasoning for the 44hp was so that despite Raistlin's power someone like Kharas could still theoretically take him down into unconsciousness/near death from a few well-placed axe hacks.
#7 zombiegleemax Feb 14, 2006 16:06:30	Being a sickly mage does tend to have its downfalls. ;) I believe Cam's reasoning for the 44hp was so that despite Raistlin's power someone like Kharas could still theoretically take him down into unconsciousness/near death from a few well-placed axe hacks. Well I dont think we have an issue with his hitpoints but rather that even at 8 CRs higher, a party of 4 lvl 19s stand quite a good chance given how Raistlin is statted out, and even more so of a chance if that 8 CRs higher is at the end of Legends and not at the beginning.
#8 iltharanos Feb 14, 2006 17:06:23	Well I dont think we have an issue with his hitpoints but rather that even at 8 CRs higher, a party of 4 lvl 19s stand quite a good chance given how Raistlin is statted out, and even more so of a chance if that 8 CRs higher is at the end of Legends and not at the beginning. His hit points have a direct bearing on his challenge to lower level opponents. Although technically a 44hp (Con 9) Raistlin is the same challenge rating as an 152hp (Con 13 [Amulet of Health +4]) Raistlin, it's much more likely the 152 hp Raistlin can effectively survive an attack from a party of four level 19 characters.
#9 zombiegleemax Feb 14, 2006 19:31:55	I'm sure given Raistlin's prodigious magical powers he could always invest in a Con-boosting item Wrong!... IMO ¬¬ IRC Raist alwalys though magical items were for weak wizards and never had the need for any (with some exceptions: the staff of magius -though i think this was more a trophy for him- , the dragon orb, the cursed money and Fistandantilus' bloodstone). As the great wizard he was, he should always had been prepared with spells for the occasion, maybe this is the reason why he was a general wizard and not a specialist, he couldn't afford to loose acces to abjuration spells; and with a wise selection of feats (which i'll know in 11 days, can't wait for my book!!!) he could make up the lack of items.
#10 iltharanos Feb 14, 2006 19:49:07	Wrong!... IMO ¬¬ IRC Raist alwalys though magical items were for weak wizards and never had the need for any (with some exceptions: the staff of magius -though i think this was more a trophy for him- , the dragon orb, the cursed money and Fistandantilus' bloodstone). Where's it say that? The only similar statement I recall Raistlin making about weak wizards were those wizards that relied on or had familiars, as he considered it weak for any wizard to be so tied to another living being. As the great wizard he was, he should always had been prepared with spells for the occasion, maybe this is the reason why he was a general wizard and not a specialist, he couldn't afford to loose acces to abjuration spells; and with a wise selection of feats (which i'll know in 11 days, can't wait for my book!!!) he could make up the lack of items. Besides the Staff of Magius and Dragon Orb he's also got the Dagger of Magius, spell scrolls, and Bracers of Armor. Raistlin's no fool, if it can benefit him, he'd do it, that includes investing in appropriate magic items.
#11 zombiegleemax Feb 14, 2006 21:07:53	well I understand that he has 44 hp so that Kharas could 1-shot him, I'm just saying that the three leaders combined could down him. Oh and if that fourth member was a 19th lvl fighter... Well like I said, he wouldn't go down easy but all it takes in one good shot.