Please ignore the rough border in the north - that will get fixed eventually when I do the Adri Varma Plateau properly.
Also note that I am working on a solution to allow me to show neighbouring countries (as discussed at the end of my
main thread recently). So this map will eventually be updated with that info, when it gets done.
Comments? Suggestions? This is nothing more than a tweaked conversion of the 24 mile per hex maps, combined
with random clippings from other maps. It could probably do with more villages, and possibly some variations to the
terrain - I thought about adding in small patches of broken lands, sand dunes, clay deposits, or sandy desert in the
Sind Desert, but left it plain rocky desert for now.
Andrew, I know you've been working on Sind for quite a while. I'd be happy to incorporate whatever you have done
if you're willing to give me a peek. ;)
Comments? Suggestions? This is nothing more than a tweaked conversion of the 24 mile per hex maps, combined
with random clippings from other maps. It could probably do with more villages, and possibly some variations to the
terrain - I thought about adding in small patches of broken lands, sand dunes, clay deposits, or sandy desert in the
Sind Desert, but left it plain rocky desert for now.
Nice map. You're of course right about the need for some more features.
Andrew, I know you've been working on Sind for quite a while. I'd be happy to incorporate whatever you have done if you're willing to give me a peek. ;)
Will do. It's not much at the moment- the chief areas I've been working on are Kadesh and Peshmir in the north, Nagpuri in the middle, and a little bit of Jalawar in the south (to accomodate changes to the plateau- Bangore, in particular, is definitely out of place).
Got some Valentine's Day plans, so I probably won't be able to check my maps tonight, but hopefully tomorrow night after work. With any luck, we can start fleshing out the Sind map finally!
[EDIT] Offhand, I know that there is the Jashpurdhani mystic cloister in the mountains of Kadesh (it is on one of the maps), which I placed (IIRC) in the mountains north of that Gawan.
I'd probably add a few more valleys in the mountains of Gunjab- not too many, but a few, and maybe make the one around Raneshwar a little bigger (think Tibet). Possibly one village that might show up on that scale, but all the other places in Gunjab are likely too small and wideflung to show up on an 8 mile hex.
Also, I have tweaked some of the borders from their 24 mile versions, since those seemed rather arbitrary, especially once you take geography at a smaller scale into account. For instance, why wouldn't Nagpuri have that little hill valley to the west in its borders? (Just an example). I'm also debating on making that hilly area of Nagpuri more fertile, by adding in some grassy vales cutting through it (I figure that most of Nagpuri's population is closer to the west, and culturally tied to "central" Sind, than in the east). I also have a fort near the border to those broken lands (which I have removed from anyone's possession- they are IMC populated by Red Orcs, and are unclaimed wilderness).
The Malakaz is a region in the Swamp that you might indicate, as well.
Again, will hopefully have more to add later.
And... I see you will draw an Adri Varma Plateau. I bet you already know it, but I suggest you an alternate map. You can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x7. Download the book (if you don't already have it) and look at pag 7. It is a nice map, and it would be even nicer if drawn by you. ;)
You have done it again! Does this mean you are officially back?
I love the map. I note that you havent listed any of the X modules as sources (should that be X4?), and it would be interesting to see if any locations could be pulled from that one, like The Malakaz region mentioned by Cthulhudrew.
In any case, this is just beautiful!
A very nice map, as ever!
And... I see you will draw an Adri Varma Plateau. I bet you already know it, but I suggest you an alternate map. You can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x7. Download the book (if you don't already have it) and look at pag 7. It is a nice map, and it would be even nicer if drawn by you. ;)
Good point Arcanda!
I would also like to see a map of Adri Varma that integrated the information from the Orange B3. Even though Haven itself was moved to Karameikos, there is no reason not to consider the rest of Gulluvia as canon...
Håvard
In addition to the remarks made by others, I would suggest going to Thib's map site, I know he has a map of the Adri Varma Plateau region, part of which I used to create my Northern Wildlands map.
Geoff
(Sadly, the main Sindhi sources- HWA3, PWAs, and CoM- sort of clash on their historical treatment of Shahjapur/Sind. Which is too bad, since Allen Varney did such a great job in such a short space with HWA3.)
Will do. It's not much at the moment- the chief areas I've been working on are Kadesh and Peshmir in the north, Nagpuri in the middle, and a little bit of Jalawar in the south (to accomodate changes to the plateau- Bangore, in particular, is definitely out of place).
I assume you mean out of place in regards to its position on the GAZ14 map, which places it further north, in Shajarkand rather than Jalawar. That map also moves the border north a little in the same region. I chose to scrap that and went with the other sources, namely Dragon 169 and Champions of Mystara - though of course the GAZ14 map is the only one at the same 8 mile per hex scale.
If you have reasons for accepting GAZ14's deviation, I'm open to the possibility, though.
Got some Valentine's Day plans, so I probably won't be able to check my maps tonight, but hopefully tomorrow night after work. With any luck, we can start fleshing out the Sind map finally!
Yep, that would be great. The current version is a very good start, but we could do with four or five more features to mark in each province. I do think that Sind should be more bare than other Known World nations, though; the reason it covers such a wide area is that most of that terrain is rather undesirable, and indeed unuseable.
[EDIT] Offhand, I know that there is the Jashpurdhani mystic cloister in the mountains of Kadesh (it is on one of the maps), which I placed (IIRC) in the mountains north of that Gawan.
Is that from Champions of Mystara? I haven't actually searched any texts for extra stuff for the maps yet - the whole thing was thrown together yesterday in a remarkably short amount of time considering the size. Strange that I should chose my busiest work day to start such an endeavour, but such is life I suppose. ;)
I'll be having a look in Champions of Mystara, probably Dragon 169, X4, and maybe X10 later for possible additions. Are there any other sources worth checking? Was there any stuff from the Poor Wizard's Almanacs that could be marked, I wonder?
I'd probably add a few more valleys in the mountains of Gunjab- not too many, but a few, and maybe make the one around Raneshwar a little bigger (think Tibet). Possibly one village that might show up on that scale, but all the other places in Gunjab are likely too small and wideflung to show up on an 8 mile hex.
Okay, this is easy enough to do. I actually tried to restrict my valley additions, because Glantri right next door does not have these things marked.
Also, I have tweaked some of the borders from their 24 mile versions, since those seemed rather arbitrary, especially once you take geography at a smaller scale into account. For instance, why wouldn't Nagpuri have that little hill valley to the west in its borders? (Just an example).
In that particular case, I was looking at it the other way round - why shouldn't Gunjab have a small tract of mountainless land?
But again, those are easy enough to adjust and I will happily do so upon request.
I'm also debating on making that hilly area of Nagpuri more fertile, by adding in some grassy vales cutting through it (I figure that most of Nagpuri's population is closer to the west, and culturally tied to "central" Sind, than in the east). I also have a fort near the border to those broken lands (which I have removed from anyone's possession- they are IMC populated by Red Orcs, and are unclaimed wilderness).
I remember you mentioning those Red Orcs, indeed. But I don't think it's necessary to fiddle with the borders in order to include them - after all, we have purely political borders in various other places already anyway.
What I'd rather do is place a fauna label - "Red Orcs" - on top of the area in question. The fort sounds like a good idea too.
The Malakaz is a region in the Swamp that you might indicate, as well.
Any ideas for how to indicate it? A fauna label?
Again, will hopefully have more to add later.
I'll be looking forward to it. :D
A very nice map, as ever!
And... I see you will draw an Adri Varma Plateau. I bet you already know it, but I suggest you an alternate map. You can find it here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x7. Download the book (if you don't already have it) and look at pag 7. It is a nice map, and it would be even nicer if drawn by you. ;)
Ah, the plateau map from B3... This one is a bit of a headache. The map is rather incompatible with the plateau as described in other sources. Although on the other hand I know a few people have put the Kingdom of Ghyr up there, in roughly the same location.
I haven't decided yet how to (or whether to) incorporate that into my version of the plateau.
Thorf!
You have done it again! Does this mean you are officially back?
It seems like it... Let's keep our fingers crossed, shall we? ;)
I love the map. I note that you havent listed any of the X modules as sources (should that be X4?), and it would be interesting to see if any locations could be pulled from that one, like The Malakaz region mentioned by Cthulhudrew.
You're right. Perhaps I should mention X4 just because it was the base map for the region in the first place, although Dragon 169 and Champions of Mystara made it obsolete as a primary source.
On the other hand, it will certainly be added in for the Malakaz reference, so it doesn't really matter either way.
The other thing I was considering adding was the Asanda River's delta from X4. I believe it was mentioned in Champions of Mystara in the description of Jahore, if I remember right, in which case there is a good case for adding it in again (it was left off the developed Sind maps).
Good point Arcanda!
I would also like to see a map of Adri Varma that integrated the information from the Orange B3. Even though Haven itself was moved to Karameikos, there is no reason not to consider the rest of Gulluvia as canon...
Hmm, another vote for B3. Perhaps the location could be shifted a little further to the northwest? As it is, the southeastern corner of that map are quite starkly out of line with the plateau as it is shown elsewhere.
Of course, I could also simply make an alternate version...
Work calls...
I would also like to see a map of Adri Varma that integrated the information from the Orange B3. Even though Haven itself was moved to Karameikos, there is no reason not to consider the rest of Gulluvia as canon...
Except that it doesn't really match with what we know of the western border of Glantri. At most, I'd consider Gullavia as an abandoned region (e.g., after a humanoid invasion).
Moreover, Champions of Mystara has Jahore sitting on a river estuary - a small bay.
I could add in the delta, which would take up about 5 hexes of land, replace the bay - which could simply have been a case of messy copying of the coastline by the original catrographers anyway - and move the Putnabad/Jalawar border to the easternmost branch of the delta.
Any thoughts or opinions?
I could add in the delta, which would take up about 5 hexes of land, replace the bay - which could simply have been a case of messy copying of the coastline by the original catrographers anyway - and move the Putnabad/Jalawar border to the easternmost branch of the delta.
Any thoughts or opinions?
I vote for the delta! I think you are right that the delta was mistakenly turned into a bay.
As for the B3 vs. desert Plateau, to versions of the map would be cool, if it isnt too much of a hassle.
Good having you back Thorf!
Håvard
I assume you mean out of place in regards to its position on the GAZ14 map, which places it further north, in Shajarkand rather than Jalawar. That map also moves the border north a little in the same region. I chose to scrap that and went with the other sources, namely Dragon 169 and Champions of Mystara - though of course the GAZ14 map is the only one at the same 8 mile per hex scale.
That's the one I was referring to. Hadn't checked your map against the others to see if you'd corrected it or not, though.
If you have reasons for accepting GAZ14's deviation, I'm open to the possibility, though.
Not at all, though IIRC, I did keep a little village in the same region (in Shahjarkand), because it seemed like a good location for such, and that area needed some fleshing out. I just explained the Gaz14 "glitch" as a cartographer not checking his latitude and transposing the two villages into one.
I do think that Sind should be more bare than other Known World nations, though; the reason it covers such a wide area is that most of that terrain is rather undesirable, and indeed unuseable.
I agree with you on that one, and in fact, think most of the settlements should be closer to the Asanda River, rather than spread all around. The primary reason for such, IMO (aside from canonical evidence that the Asanda is the lifeblood of the country) is that it seems very unbelievable to me that the Sind "uber-culture" could be so consistent in a territory that is so wide-flung and sparsely populated. Compare such with, say, all the varied cultures of the Known World, which are more densely populated and fill a much smaller area.
(Of course, a lot of this comes down to having such little in-depth exploration of Sind, which has mostly been brushed off as "generic" India- much the way Ochalea has been broadly painted as "generic" China- when, in fact, the various provinces and regions must surely have their own distinctive cultures and traits as they do in the RW. IMO, it comes from "Western" views on the nature of eastern cultures. Anyway, kind of beside the point.)
Is that from Champions of Mystara? I haven't actually searched any texts for extra stuff for the maps yet - the whole thing was thrown together yesterday in a remarkably short amount of time considering the size. Strange that I should chose my busiest work day to start such an endeavour, but such is life I suppose. ;)
It's actually not in the text itself, but it is on one of the maps. It's the "Jashpurdhani Mystic Cloister".
I'll be having a look in Champions of Mystara, probably Dragon 169, X4, and maybe X10 later for possible additions. Are there any other sources worth checking? Was there any stuff from the Poor Wizard's Almanacs that could be marked, I wonder?
Nothing I can think of offhand, but HWA3 is a good source for Sind historical information and all, there might be some bits and pieces you can dredge out of the text there, or even off the Shahjapuri map.
Okay, this is easy enough to do. I actually tried to restrict my valley additions, because Glantri right next door does not have these things marked.
I've had the same struggle- and have also tried to limit the number of valleys in any case- but bear in mind that on many of the earlier maps in the Gaz series, certain areas were left undeveloped until later sources came along and fleshed them out. Much of Minrothad, for instance, wasn't developed even on its own map (not until the Trail Maps filled it out more). So I think it's okay to go and fill in some of the "gaps", even though they haven't appeared before, if only because the only map we have is on such a large scale, and the other maps were made at a time when there wasn't even a Sind to the east of the Known World.
Another example of this is how the westernmost parts of Sind (Nagpuri region) appear different on the Western Countries Trail Map than they do on, for example, the Gaz14 map (which was created at a point after they decided to place Sind on Mystara).
In that particular case, I was looking at it the other way round - why shouldn't Gunjab have a small tract of mountainless land?
True, and I definitely feel the larger area of hills is certainly a part of Gunjab (and probably has a couple of villages), but I just meant that some of the border areas seem incredibly arbitrary and not very well thought out when put on the 8 mile scale (the area I was referring to is that tiny valley of only three hill hexes, not the larger one. It just seems... off. As do, frankly, the northern borders of Nagpuri/Gunjab.
I remember you mentioning those Red Orcs, indeed. But I don't think it's necessary to fiddle with the borders in order to include them - after all, we have purely political borders in various other places already anyway.
True, it would be in keeping with the way things were handled in, say, Karameikos (with labels). Just a personal choice, really.
Any ideas for how to indicate it? A fauna label?
Yeah- that's about what I was thinking. That way it isn't stuck in one particular place, but is essentially a "warning." For that matter, if you wanted to pin it down, you could use a skull and crossbones sort of icon.
Ah, the plateau map from B3... This one is a bit of a headache. The map is rather incompatible with the plateau as described in other sources. Although on the other hand I know a few people have put the Kingdom of Ghyr up there, in roughly the same location.
For what little development I've done of Ghyr, I've actually located it to the north of Denagoth (the Mountains of Ice on the map in XL-1 seem to fit with the Icereach Mountains of Norwold). In any case, the climate and terrain of Ghyr (cold northern climate, with marshes, bogs, and lakes) don't seem to be very compatible with the wasteland maps of the Adri Varma that we have.
The other thing I was considering adding was the Asanda River's delta from X4. I believe it was mentioned in Champions of Mystara in the description of Jahore, if I remember right, in which case there is a good case for adding it in again (it was left off the developed Sind maps).
I agree with Havard that the delta should be added into the map, and am likewise not sure why it was left off. Should be a simple enough matter, as you note, and is one that I hadn't yet gotten around to adding in my own maps of Jalawar.
One other region I just thought of- maybe there should be a set of ruins in either Shahjarkand or Jalawar (I forget which) named Shahjapur? IIRC, in at least one source it is mentioned as having been a city before being sent to the Hollow World.
(Sadly, the main Sindhi sources- HWA3, PWAs, and CoM- sort of clash on their historical treatment of Shahjapur/Sind. Which is too bad, since Allen Varney did such a great job in such a short space with HWA3.)
I'm not sure what the name for the ruins should be - often the community transferred retains its original name, so perhaps Amtha or Dharsatra would be appropriate. For now, I have simply labelled the ruins "Ancient Ruins".
Also, note that there are rumoured to be some ruins in the Salt Swamp. I have marked these on, and named them "Lost Ruins".
By the way, reading through the history of Shajapur, it seems to me that the history there and that in Champions of Mystara are not too hard to combine. But I agree that it's a shame they didn't just combine them properly in the first place - Ann Dupuis seems to have read at least some of HWA3's account, and yet doesn't use all of it.
Sind and Jaibul, 8 mi per hex
- Based on the Champions of Mystara 24 mile per hex map. Areas on the eastern border were adapted from the GAZ14 8 mile per hex map, which showed the immediate border area.
- The source of the Asanda River in the Nemkin Ylaka was added. Primary sources show only that the river starts at the edge of the swamp. However, X4 describes the Asanda River as bubbling up into the marsh from underground, then gradually forming and flowing east.
- X4, page 9 details the Malakaz, a mind-controlling monster living in the Salt Swamp. The Malakaz has been marked on the map at an arbitrary location as “Domain of the Malakaz”. DMs should feel free to alter this location as they see fit.
- Shallow coastal water was extrapolated from other Known World maps of the same scale and drawn in.
- TM1 shows the height of Mt. Urapurda at 18,250 ft.
- Dragon 169 mentions that Jahore is “on the westernmost branch of the Asanda delta”. However, the Asanda River’s delta, shown on the original X4 map, is not present on the same Dragon issue’s map. The delta has thus been resurrected, and the Putnabad/Jalawar border has been adjusted accordingly.
- On page 46, Dragon 169 refers to the “Asanda Plain”; the label has been added to the map.
- The Champions of Mystara Explorer’s Manual page 3 refers to the Nemkin Ylaka (Salt Swamp) as “more than 10,000 square miles of sodden terrain, salt-encrusted mud flats, brackish pools, and acrid streams, harbouring tough grasses and dangerous crocodiles.”
- Page 14 mentions Anguri wine, a famous wine from Nagpuri. This has been presumed to be a re-gional name, and has been added as a small village in western Nagpuri.
- Page 16 mentions that the small Jashpurdhana mystic order has “a rock-cut monastery in the moun-tains of Kadesh”.
- Page 19 mentions “a number of mines” in the badlands west of Sandapur, in Azadgal.
- Page 20 notes that there are “a number of oases” near Baratpur. One of them, 30 miles west of Barat-pur, is named the Jadu.
- The same page notes that Gunjab includes “a few narrow valleys” in amonst its many mountains.
- Page 21 mentions that Sambay is a busy port. Therefore shipping lanes have been added.
- Page 22 talks about the trails through the swamp between Khamrati and Gola Keep. They have been marked on the map as “Treacherous Swamp Trails”. It also mentions rare Kajahali flowers, which have been marked arbitrarily near the centre of the swamp.
- According to page 22, Kadesh is notorious for cave systems and forested slopes. It also mentions sil-ver mines in the mountains. These have been marked, and caves close to Latehar have been marked as “Latehar Caves” – perhaps a particularly large and spectacular cave complex.
- Page 22 refers to a tower built near Chandbali by Rohan, the Rajah’s son. This tower has been marked as “Rohan’s Tower”.
- Page 23 talks about an obsidian mine in Peshmir, as well as a gold mine “deep within the bowels” of the volcano, Mt. Urapurda. The gold mine has been placed next to the volcano, while the obsidian mine is between the volcano and the shore of Lake Hast.
- Page 24 names the forests on the Sind-Atruaghin southern border as a tiger preserve in Shajarkand and the “Royal Elephant Grounds” in Jalawar.
- Page 24 also mentions the ruins of a great city, rumoured to be in the Nemkin Ylaka, possibly close to Karganj. The ruins have been marked, though their nature remains up to individual DMs.
- Jaibul is described as a “Ryaset” rather than a “Rajahstan” on page 24; apparently “Rajahstan” is a title used incorrectly by foreigners. Nevertheless, Jaibul has been marked as “Rajahstan of Jaibul”. Jaibul town has been remarked as the capital rather than a town.
- Both HWA3 and Champions of Mystara mention Shajapur being transferred to the Hollow World. In the absence of more concrete references to the resulting leftovers in Outer World Sind, some “Ancient Ruins” have been marked in Shajarkand.
(I am trying to keep notes like this for new adapted maps, to make my mapmaking more transparent, and more easy to criticise in an informed manner.)
By the way, reading through the history of Shajapur, it seems to me that the history there and that in Champions of Mystara are not too hard to combine. But I agree that it's a shame they didn't just combine them properly in the first place - Ann Dupuis seems to have read at least some of HWA3's account, and yet doesn't use all of it.
Yeah, I got the sense that she was informed of it after she had already done her CoM work, and then tried to combine them with a couple of references. The PWA references really complicate the issue, IMO, and I do my best to disregard them (the Immortals transplant most of the population to the HW, thereby further endangering the Outer World civilization? False memory implants? These are some of the things that I really disliked about Allston's HW work, and they are compounded here.)
The main difficulty comes in the nature of the Caste system. In HWA3, the caste system (with different naming conventions) is instituted by Thombara the Daring, the hero who was primarily responsible for overthrowing the Chambahara shapechangers. In CoM, it is a different person who is responsible for the caste system (Maga Aditi) who institutes the caste system after doing the same thing (overthrowing the Chambahara). That, plus the cultural differences are the tough part to reconcile (probably why they used the generic "false memories" fix).
I've got a timeline in which I've attempted to correct the issues somewhere. Offhand, I think I wrote off the different caste/culture systems as regional (the Moguls ruled in Shahjapur, but eventually were displaced through war/time with the current political setup), and likewise the caste system evolved differently through time. I think I had Thombara set up the initial caste system, which changed a bit under the (later) Maga Adit. There are recurring problems with Chambahara in Sind, according to their history, and I had Thombara deal with the earliest troubles (c.200 AC), and Adit the later troubles (c.450 AC, after the introduction of lycanthropy by Minrothad compounds the problems).
You might also want to put a fort/camp somewhere in the Gunjab mountains, to indicate the location of the ruler's "secret forces". Maybe not necessary, but it's a thought.
I'm sure you've probably noted this/checked it, but just thought I'd mention it. Also, the rivers in the Trail Map of the Sablestone/Mountain region are slightly different from the larger scale version of the CoM map, IIRC. I used the greater detail of the 8 mile Trail Maps to better flesh out that region on the 8 mile scale myself.
Can you tell that I'm eager to get this 900-lb Gorilla finally taken care of in some depth?
(I've been waiting for some help here- just always overthink the map when I start working on it. "Well, what would have led up to the development of this town here? The population levels wouldn't seem to allow for a village there. The 24 mile hex map doesn't show a forest there." That sort of thing.
Hopefully, working together, we can both flesh out the map and build a better degree of detail/depth to the nation itself. I've been researching Hindu mythology and the like all morning as a result, as well as Indian regions/cultures.)
Hopefully, working together, we can both flesh out the map and build a better degree of detail/depth to the nation itself.
I hope so too. It's good to see this region get a good treatment like what you guys are giving it. Now, if I can come up with anything constructive to the cause I'll give it, but for the moment I'm thoughtless (still ;) ). Great job so far!
This is all relevant for Peshmir, which apparently has some very productive obsidian mines, which give a rather huge output each year. I wonder what they use it for? Blades and mirrors come to mind, although Sind is not a stone age culture by any means...
From HWA3, page 21: Dharsatra was a small river village near a seaport. It underwent a period of rapid growth before it was transferred to the Hollow World.
Maybe the ruins (or else just a village named Dharsatra?) should be located somewhere near to Jahore?
From PWA1011
p. 175: There is a Shehid monastery in the hills of Gunjab, about a week's travel or so away from Raneshwar. Probably in the hills to the southwest, from whence Anand Brishnapur traveled to the capitol, I'd guess.
p. 202: There is a village named Ranpur in Nagpuri, in the foothills of the Amsorak mountain.
p. 208: There are humanoids living in the mountains of Gunjab. Maybe some cave complexes in the mountains/hills (or just some fauna notes?)
From PWA1012:
p. 232: The lair of the dragons Vasilyon the Younger and Everdire are in the Khurish Massif near Peshmir. Don't know if these really need to be placed or not (maybe just on a western version of the "Dragons of the Known World" sort of map).
That's all I've found offhand, but I'm still digging.
Also, OT, but interestingly, HWA3 mentions that the wilds of Shahjapur are plagued by primitive pygmy-like gnomes. Wonder where/what their Outer World origins are? Presumably something semi-tropical, if not Sind itself... interesting.
Also, OT, but interestingly, HWA3 mentions that the wilds of Shahjapur are plagued by primitive pygmy-like gnomes. Wonder where/what their Outer World origins are? Presumably something semi-tropical, if not Sind itself... interesting.
They might come from Southern Davania. Gnomes seem to have originated there, and to have been then moved in limited numbers to the Known World.
I don't think they'd have had time to develop a significantly different culture in Sind.
OTOH, if you go by the Southern Davanian Timeline in the Vaults, there's plenty of space of leftovers of the major clans to develop a pygmy culture in the northern areas of Vulcania, or somewhere near there.
They might come from Southern Davania. Gnomes seem to have originated there, and to have been then moved in limited numbers to the Known World.
I don't think they'd have had time to develop a significantly different culture in Sind.
OTOH, if you go by the Southern Davanian Timeline in the Vaults, there's plenty of space of leftovers of the major clans to develop a pygmy culture in the northern areas of Vulcania, or somewhere near there.
Maybe they are not actually gnomes, but related to the Karimari of the Serpent Peninsula?
Håvard
Maybe they are not actually gnomes, but related to the Karimari of the Serpent Peninsula?
I don't know. They are explicitly described as gnomes, much as the Karimari are explicitly described as human. IMO, the designers of CoM missed a great opportunity to do something different by making the Karimari human pygmies (they could have made them, say, a variant halfling or gnomish culture), but for much the same reasons, I think the pygmy-like gnomes of Shahjapur should be gnomes. I like the idea of these variants.
I think a Davanian origin is a pretty good idea.
In the meanwhile, some things that I did-
The location of Chandbali on my maps is in a slightly different location- I tried to keep the Western Countries version of the region west of Akesoli, even though it clashes somewhat substantially with the 24 mile hex version of the same region on the CoM map. As a result, I have more hills in northern Nagpuri than CoM does, and I moved Chandbali into a little nook between a hilly ridge.
In Peshmir, I kept the larger borders of Lake Hast as it comes southwards, which meant a much larger river area, and less land in the immediate vicinity. I also included some grasslands/farmland areas around the lake, gradually turning into the hills that are indicated on the 24 mile hex map.
My locations of Karakandar and Jalbad are slightly different from yours, I believe, though not by a lot. I adjusted the Jalbad one specifically because the straight road didn't appeal to me (for purely esthetic reasons, so no biggie).
That fort I mentioned near the broken lands I have right on the tip of it, near where you placed Anguri. I also have a few more farmland hexes in those hills there, towards Mahasabad (not a lot, but some fertile valleys).
Have you considered placing some small tributaries off of the Asanda? Not many, and certainly not spreading far, but maybe just branching off into the already fertile areas on the map (ie, mostly along the eastern side, and not so much in the western). Possibly adding a small body of water in the oasis near Sayr Ulan as well. (Does the map of that city show anything like that?)
CoM mentions that there are villages/towns near Baratpur. Probably most are too small to indicate, but we could maybe add another village or town in that oasis near Baratpur, and maybe something in the vicinity. (Possibly along the trade route south- where it curves towards the swamp seems like a good place; that curve doesn't seem natural, unless there was something for caravans to trail off to, otherwise why wouldn't they go straight?)
Maybe a village or two in the grasslands in northern Baratkand as well.
Also, all those mines in western Azadgal seem far from the population centers we have. Maybe some small mining villages nearby?
Still thinking about this, but I have to say, having a full 8 mile hex map (sparse as it is) in front of me to look at makes the planning all the easier.
Will think about some other geographic changes and things to make it more interesting as well.
Lunch time here. I found this interesting little page while researching obsidian mines. It seems that mostly obsidian was taken from the surface, and mines were only used to get the highest possible quality obsidian.
This is all relevant for Peshmir, which apparently has some very productive obsidian mines, which give a rather huge output each year. I wonder what they use it for? Blades and mirrors come to mind, although Sind is not a stone age culture by any means...
The map looks wonderful, as always, Thorf! Good call putting the delta back in.
As for the obsidian, how's this...
Born of the fire
Smoothe as the breeze
Hard as the stone
Glassy as the lake
Dark as the night.
Obsidian is the physical embodiment of the union of the Five Spheres. It is, therefore, a potent vessel for magical energies, as well as a strong magical component itself. The union of the spheres makes it a very useful tool in protective, dominating/commanding/charming, and warding magic. Its natural reflectivity makes it a critical component in defensive and illusory magic, while its opacity makes it a powerful shield against scrying. Spellcasters who make a habit of summoning destructive creatures generally use summoning chambers with walls, floor, and ceiling tiled in obsidian--both as an added layer of protection and to up their creepiness factor.
Obsidian blades can be significantly sharper than steel (per Wikipedia), so it is in high demand among researchers who require very precise measurements and operations.
All of this, then, would make Sind's Jadugerya's, along with Glantri and Jaibul, the primary markets for obsidian. Still, as with other precious stones and metals (which generally also have arcane uses), at least some portion of the obsidan output is made into non-magical jewelry to be sold in Sind or to Darokinian merchants
As for the obsidian, how's this...
Born of the fire
Smoothe as the breeze
Hard as the stone
Glassy as the lake
Dark as the night.
Obsidian is the physical embodiment of the union of the Five Spheres. It is, therefore, a potent vessel for magical energies, as well as a strong magical component itself. The union of the spheres makes it a very useful tool in protective, dominating/commanding/charming, and warding magic. Its natural reflectivity makes it a critical component in defensive and illusory magic, while its opacity makes it a powerful shield against scrying. Spellcasters who make a habit of summoning destructive creatures generally use summoning chambers with walls, floor, and ceiling tiled in obsidian--both as an added layer of protection and to up their creepiness factor.
Is this canon ? If so, please give the reference?
From HWA3, page 21: Dharsatra was a small river village near a seaport. It underwent a period of rapid growth before it was transferred to the Hollow World.
Maybe the ruins (or else just a village named Dharsatra?) should be located somewhere near to Jahore?
I missed this reference. :embarrass Note that the "excellent seaport" could also mean Sambay, which is specifically described as having a good seaport, frequented by foreign ships from many different nations. Of course, the seaport could have since been abandoned, too...
One possibility is that Pramayama exists on the same site as the original Dharsatra. I like this solution because after all Pramayama is the original Sindhi settlement - the only one featured in the old X4 map. ;) It somehow seems appropriate.
Placing a current village of Dharsatra seems to me to be going a little bit too far, although it is obviously a possible solution.
In any case, I will remove the "ancient ruins" for now.
From PWA1011
p. 175: There is a Shehid monastery in the hills of Gunjab, about a week's travel or so away from Raneshwar. Probably in the hills to the southwest, from whence Anand Brishnapur traveled to the capitol, I'd guess.
Okay, I marked this on. I made a new symbol for monasteries, but I don't like it much. Any suggestions for a better symbol?
p. 202: There is a village named Ranpur in Nagpuri, in the foothills of the Amsorak mountain.
I marked this village halfway between Mahasabad and Chandbali, to make it as isolated as possible.
p. 208: There are humanoids living in the mountains of Gunjab. Maybe some cave complexes in the mountains/hills (or just some fauna notes?)
This is good, but unfortunately "Humanoids" is not really a viable fauna label - at least, it has never been used on official maps. It would make sense to choose one or two types and place the labels at a few points in the mountains.
Care to speculate on what kind of humanoids might be there? The only requirements are that they are raidable by kobolds, and not allied with the Master of Hule.
From PWA1012:
p. 232: The lair of the dragons Vasilyon the Younger and Everdire are in the Khurish Massif near Peshmir. Don't know if these really need to be placed or not (maybe just on a western version of the "Dragons of the Known World" sort of map).
We could place a label "Dragons", but the only official use of that particular label is on the Isle of Dawn, in the Provincia Septentriona. I think you are correct in that these would be better off on a map of dragon domains - and thanks for reminding me about the existence of this map. I had forgotten about it in all my mapping. ;)
That's all I've found offhand, but I'm still digging.
I look forward to hearing more. We've found a lot already.
Also, OT, but interestingly, HWA3 mentions that the wilds of Shahjapur are plagued by primitive pygmy-like gnomes. Wonder where/what their Outer World origins are? Presumably something semi-tropical, if not Sind itself... interesting.
Yes, I noticed this too. Nice to hear another reference to gnomes. Does pygmy refer to their culture, though? Because after all, most gnomes are already pygmy-like in stature!
The map is looking good. The only thing I have at the moment (and I'll be checking my maps later tonight, as promised) is that I seem to recall the Jashpurdhani cloister is oriented on the map in CoM facing west, rather than east. Not a big issue (since the map is small, and there are tons of mountains in those hexes where it could have a western facing view), but I think I placed it on the opposite side of the mountains as a result.
I wasn't aware of the map of the monastery! Oops. I fixed it. Thanks. :embarrass
You might also want to put a fort/camp somewhere in the Gunjab mountains, to indicate the location of the ruler's "secret forces". Maybe not necessary, but it's a thought.
Good idea. I never thought to represent this on the map. I placed a camp in one of the valleys north of Raneshwar.
I missed this reference. :embarrass Note that the "excellent seaport" could also mean Sambay, which is specifically described as having a good seaport, frequented by foreign ships from many different nations. Of course, the seaport could have since been abandoned, too...
I'd thought about Sambay as a possibility as well.
One possibility is that Pramayama exists on the same site as the original Dharsatra. I like this solution because after all Pramayama is the original Sindhi settlement - the only one featured in the old X4 map. ;) It somehow seems appropriate.
That could work out, although it seems that Pramayama is a bit further from Jahore/Sambay than the text would seem to indicate (it says it is close, IIRC). Again, though, it could work fine, and would certainly help fill in some details about the history of Pramayama (used to be known as Dharsatra, then was suddenly abandoned, thought to be a plague from the nearby swamp that killed everyone).
Okay, I marked this on. I made a new symbol for monasteries, but I don't like it much. Any suggestions for a better symbol?
I think the old (and underused) temple symbol might work fine, since it resembles monasteries. Just a note in the legend that the symbol works for temples/monasteries. Sort of like the tower/keep symbol.
(Actually, looking at it, it seems the temple symbol is already used for temples and palaces. Maybe we should have a different palace symbol? Or just a different temple/monastery symbol?)
Care to speculate on what kind of humanoids might be there? The only requirements are that they are raidable by kobolds, and not allied with the Master of Hule.
Well, offhand, we know that red orcs were very populous in the region, but they don't seem to be very easily pushed over by kobolds. (Btw, I should but don't recall that raiding kobold reference. Was that in JA or one of the PWAs?)
The Wogar tribe consisted of Red Orcs and Goblins, primarily, and we don't hear too much about the goblins once the Wogar Tribe settles in the Atruaghin/Sind region. Perhaps the red orcs remained in the lower parts (Atruaghin/Akesoli/Sind), and are now largely confined to the broken lands and the underground, while the goblins got pushed into the mountains?
Also, there should be some orcs in the mountains near Peshmir, based on the incident between Arturo of Darokin and Anand Brishnapur (in one of the PWAs, I think 1012). There might also be some gnolls in the mountains somewhere, descendants of those that didn't become thralls of the Sindhi or retreat to Graakhalia.
(So: goblins in Gunjab; Red orcs in the Broken Lands- which we should come up with a name for, I'll give it some thought-; Orcs (common? red? yellow?) in the mountains of Peshmir; gnolls- probably in the mountains/hills south of kadesh.)
Any lizardmen in the swamps? We should check the flora/fauna sections of CoM and see what else we can come up with.
We could place a label "Dragons", but the only official use of that particular label is on the Isle of Dawn, in the Provincia Septentriona. I think you are correct in that these would be better off on a map of dragon domains - and thanks for reminding me about the existence of this map. I had forgotten about it in all my mapping. ;)
NP- I take it we might be seeing a version of this map soon? Since it's at 24 mph, we could possibly expand upon it (with these two dragons, more of Thundiara's lair in the ocean. IIRC, there is a blue dragon mentioned in the Burning Wastes of the CoM map, and a couple of others that I can't recall offhand.)
Yes, I noticed this too. Nice to hear another reference to gnomes. Does pygmy refer to their culture, though? Because after all, most gnomes are already pygmy-like in stature!
I assume it is a reference to their culture, because of the reasons you state. A very unusual condition for gnomes, to be sure (since they are mostly depicted as very technologically advanced, especially on Mystara). I'm getting some ideas how to play with this as we speak... hmm.
One other thing that just occurred to me. The Sablestone region in the north (from the Trail Maps) and the maps of the northern part of Sind in CoM are slightly different. Notably, the Adri Varma on some maps has an extension that seems to come all the way and block the pass between Glantri/Sind, while on others, it is just an open pathway.
I'm sure you've probably noted this/checked it, but just thought I'd mention it. Also, the rivers in the Trail Map of the Sablestone/Mountain region are slightly different from the larger scale version of the CoM map, IIRC. I used the greater detail of the 8 mile Trail Maps to better flesh out that region on the 8 mile scale myself.
The detail that you speak of is restricted to the far end point of the River Kesh, marked on (if I remember right) both GAZ3's map and TM2. However, as you say, it's not marked as such on the Champions of Mystara map.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by the other confusion; I had indeed noticed that the plateau is drawn slightly different between the different maps that show it (i.e. Wrath of the Immortals 24 mile per hex and Champions of Mystara 24 mile per hex), but I had simply dismissed this as bad mapmaking (you know how much I dislike the Wrath of the Immortals map...) and picked one to go with (not sure which I picked though...).
Can you tell that I'm eager to get this 900-lb Gorilla finally taken care of in some depth?
I know what you mean, Sind and the whole Great Waste is quite a vast area that has been crying out for a detailed 8 mile per hex map for quite a long time. One of the things that encouraged me to take a stab at it is that once it's done, we will then have completed 8 mile per hex maps stretching all the way from the western Isle of Dawn to Yalu Bay! It's only a short step then across the Arm of the Immortals, and we'll have a massive strip of maps stretching all across Brun. :D
And of course this means that the Great Waste is next... ;) Although I'll probably deal with the Adri Varma Plateau first, to finish off the borders of my first trail map. (And Michele has done a wonderful job already with that in her thread.)
(I've been waiting for some help here- just always overthink the map when I start working on it. "Well, what would have led up to the development of this town here? The population levels wouldn't seem to allow for a village there. The 24 mile hex map doesn't show a forest there." That sort of thing.
I know exactly what you mean here. You can really lose confidence while converting maps if you're not careful - it's one of the reasons it takes so long. I suppose it's the dual aims of making an accurate map and making an interesting map conflicting with each other.
That's why I have been asking for input on my converted maps here. Two heads are definitely better than one when it comes to mapping. (Although I definitely enjoy having the final say, too. :D Anyone who disagrees should feel free to grab my hexes and have a go at it themselves!)
Hopefully, working together, we can both flesh out the map and build a better degree of detail/depth to the nation itself. I've been researching Hindu mythology and the like all morning as a result, as well as Indian regions/cultures.)
Great! Yes, this is one of the best things about these mapping threads - the little extras that people come up with along the way. (I hope you're snapping them all up, Shawn! ;) )
Is this canon ? If so, please give the reference?
Definitely not canon :P