)About Adri Varma plateau:
Incidentally, I was collecting as many info I could about this region, and I think Arvanda made a really good point in suggesting to exploit also the old B3 map. Even if the palace of the Silver Princess was moved to Karameikos in later publications, it doesnt' mean that the other location/geography colud not be used to better detail the Adri Varma.
Anyway, about 80% of the plateau is clearly visible in a 24-miles/hex scale if you connect the WotI "known world" map with the CoM Great Waste map. This map is mostly incompatible with the B3 map, but we can state that B3 describes this region in a distant past, when the climate was wetter.
You could say that, with the rebuilding of the Atruaghin plateau in 795BC, also the Adri Varma plateau was changed by severe droughts (as for the Great Waste region - see CoM), becoming an arid/desert land by 650BC.
So now there are no rivers and forests, no "misty swamp", and no more thunders in the Thunder Mountains (by the way: "mountain" symbols in B3 map may be easily substituted with hills without changing too much the setting, thus adapting B3 geography to WotI/CoM maps); other feats, like the central depression, roads and settlements positions could be "exported" to WotI/Com maps in order to add some details.
Some notes about settlements in the Adri Varma:
- GAZ10 map (the one used for "Orcwars!" game) shows two/three caravan stops on the SE corner of the Adri Varma, which suggest that some villages/towns are in the nearby. These caravan stops correspond approximatively to Velders, Gulluvia and N'Sau settlements on B3 map, I think.
- If you straightly prolong the road going north in the CoM map and the road going NW in the WotI map you 'll see that they meet just out of the W side of the WotI map, in the nortwestern area of the plateau. This region do not seem as arid as the rest of the Adri Varma (you can see plain and forest hexes in WotI map), so the intersection of the two roads should contain a civilized settlement. Let's call it "X-town"
- X11 map and Wendar map on PWAI show another road, going NW on the plateau, which goes parallel to the NW road leading to X-town. This road should lead to another settlement on the plateau. These two maps, moreover, show that Wendar border encompasses the NE tip of the plateau, which is a rocky/arid desert. It would be really strange if Wendarians do not possess at least a keep or a garrison town in this region.
One thing I am wondering about though with this whole desert thing. Isnt the Plateau way too far north to have a proper desert? Wouldnt a more arid vasteland be more appropriate here?
Turning the mountains into hills would work. The rivers could be gone, or just left as dried out rivers. My vote is for keeping the Misty Swamps though, they just sound cool.
There is no reason IMO why Gulluvia could not still exist, though it is probably more of a losely organized barony with only minor settlements around it. The Silver Palace could easily be replaced by ruins of some older castle.
Håvard
One thing I am wondering about though with this whole desert thing. Isnt the Plateau way too far north to have a proper desert? Wouldnt a more arid vasteland be more appropriate here?
I agree. Maybe the Adri Varma plateau should be something similar to Gobi desert than to Sahara desert: an arid, cold and rocky wasteland.
There is no reason IMO why Gulluvia could not still exist, though it is probably more of a losely organized barony with only minor settlements around it. The Silver Palace could easily be replaced by ruins of some older castle.
I agree, again. Some references in X11 speaks about "barbarian nations" somewhere around Wendar (notice that in WotI map the Adri Varma is called "Great Northern Wildlands", exactly like the plains NW of Wendar showed in X11, so maybe the plateau and the plains have the same cultural ties).
Moreover, the kingdom of Ghyr should be located somewhere north of Wendar, on the western side of the Ice Peaks of Norwold (I remember an old answer in Dragon Magazine suggesting this location for Castle Ghyr and sourrondings). In the "Quest for the Hearthstone" adventure we know that Ghyr is a "northern country" sourrounded by "warring kingdoms". It seems quite logical to have Gulluvia and the other towns of the B3 map as capitals of these quite petty and savage kingdoms.
Pregenerated PCs of "Quest for the Hearthstone" give also other good hints about how to popolate this region and the Northern Wildlands: among common character classes we have also a "crusader", an "half orc (an assassin)", a "barbarian" and a "ranger". These "new classes" could correspond to typical cultures of the region.
By the way; in B3 we have also a dwarf colony on the plateau; given the fact that dwarves started to found their colonies from 450BC, the B3 map should be posterior to this date.
If we adopt the idea of droughts brought by the rebuilding of the Atruaghin plateau in 795BC, we could say that the desertification process was really slow, lasting many centuries (so giving the human communites of the area to slowly adapt and survive...)
Moreover, the kingdom of Ghyr should be located somewhere north of Wendar, on the western side of the Ice Peaks of Norwold (I remember an old answer in Dragon Magazine suggesting this location for Castle Ghyr and sourrondings). In the "Quest for the Hearthstone" adventure we know that Ghyr is a "northern country" sourrounded by "warring kingdoms". It seems quite logical to have Gulluvia and the other towns of the B3 map as capitals of these quite petty and savage kingdoms.
I don't think the climate and geography of the Adri Varma is in keeping with what the map in XL-1 shows of Ghyr. The terrain there is cold, northern with (from one picture) ample rainfall. There are lakes and bogs/marshes, and plenty of runoff from the Mountains of Ice (labeled as such on the map- probably an arm of the Icereach Mountains). I have placed it directly north of Denagoth in the development I've done of it (as on this map.
By the way; in B3 we have also a dwarf colony on the plateau; given the fact that dwarves started to found their colonies from 450BC, the B3 map should be posterior to this date.
The dwarves could be refugees from the persecution of 802 AC in Glantri. We know that many of those dwarves fled to Sind and other parts- why not the plateau? (Perhaps they are even "plague dwarves"- dwarves who are themselves unaffected by the plague that spread to Glantri, but are now carriers of the mystical Yagrai-inflicted disease?)
I can't see the map...
Cut and paste this url into your browser:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cthulhudrew/images/Ghyr.jpg
BTW: Cthulhudrew, if the Dwarves settled there in BC 450, I don't see how they could have arrived after the purge in AC802...
As for Ghyr, I would have liked to see a larger map, incorporating Cthulhudrew's map of Ghyr into the Norwold region. I didn't know that there was mention of that in Dragon, but that makes it even more justified.
Håvard
BTW: Cthulhudrew, if the Dwarves settled there in BC 450, I don't see how they could have arrived after the purge in AC802...
Actually, that's what I meant. The dwarves didn't necessarily have to arrive in BC 450 (I think that was just an arbitrary date that LoZompatore suggested, based on Gaz6's mention that dwarves began to colonize outside of Rockhome around that time).
My suggestion was an alternate one- the dwarvish colony there might have come from a more recent date, rather than a much earlier one.
Actually, that's what I meant. The dwarves didn't necessarily have to arrive in BC 450 (I think that was just an arbitrary date that LoZompatore suggested, based on Gaz6's mention that dwarves began to colonize outside of Rockhome around that time).
My suggestion was an alternate one- the dwarvish colony there might have come from a more recent date, rather than a much earlier one.
Ah, my bad. :embarrass
In that case, your theory should work as well, and we have a reason for the dwarves settling in that area (being driven out of Glantri) rather than just being a result of random colonization from Rockhome (although that also occured).
Håvard
Last evening I did a little mapmaking with hexmapper and Paint. I prepared a map of the Adri Varma composing all the official maps without considering B3 module. Most of the region is covered by WotI and CoM, but you'll have some minor details (about roads) also in X11 and in Wendar map on PWAI.
(By the way: I prepared some extra hexes for the Hexmapper; if you like to have these symbols i put them here: http://it.geocities.com/lutetius/Mappe/Hexes.zip
Unzip the file and replace your "Hexes" folder in the Hexmapper with this one.)
Here is what we have:
Let's call this map "The official Adri Varma", to distinguish it from B3 map.
Notice the possible intersection between the road going N from Sind, and the southest road going NW.
Without modifying this map, I tried to add as much features as possible from B3 map. Here is what I got:
In detail:
- I considered B3 map as an old map showing this region in a period of wetter climate, before the E/SE area of the plateau became a desert. I also assumed that N direction in B3 map should be a little rotated counterwise, in order to better match the maps;
- I considered the swamp showed in the official Adri Varma as the western remnant of the Misty Swamp; I added all the other locations referring to this feature;
- I placed B3 cities and towns considering roads intersections and trade roads showed in the official Adri Varma map. So, for example, I put the village of Velders along the road going NW from Ylourgne, and Gulluvia at the intersection of the two major roads on the plateau;
- Mountains are transformed to hills. Most of them do not correspond to the old B3 map, but, with some assumptions (such has an hilly terrain where the eastern part of Misty Swamp once layed) it is possible to have at least a partial match; the region around B3 castle of Argenta does not match at all; I didn't care much about this, considering that this palace should be transported to Karameikos anyway;
- Forested areas are gone, substituted by desert/wastelands. There is only a small wood in the NW corner of the official Adri varma, which I populated with the elves cited in B3 map.
- About dwarves: Your comments are true; these dvarwes could be refugees from Glantri. Old B3 shows two dwarven colony; the first is in the Moor Fowl Mountains and now it is abandoned; the other should be located somewhere in the old Misty Swamp (in my map maybe it is in the hills east of the swamp remanants)
- I added orcs and kobolds lairs considering that - as from old B3 - the road between Gulluvia and Velders is sometimes raided by them. I put the lairs in cactus areas (where it should be easier to find water), with the kobolds nearer to the hills.
- I added the river showed in B3 map, considering its eastern branch as a seasonal river. I also added B3 road network superponing it to the official Adri Varma roads.
That's all. Any comments?
first of all: This is just brilliant! Its nice to see both versions of the map, and I am amazed at how well you managed to get the two to fit. The slight shift of the North-South axis on the B3 map was a stroke of genius!
Further comments:
- The Abaddon woods are replaced by desert on your map. Perhaps this area could now be referred to as the Abaddon Wastes? This way we get to use the (IMO cool) name, and signalize where the woods originally lay. Perhaps it is now a home of angry spirits like Wyrds who miss their old forest?
- Dwarven ruins are in the place of the Silver Palace, right? I like the idea of the dwarves having settled after being driven from Glantri. But what happened to them after this?
- The elven Woods, are these elves a colony from Wendar?
- If we assume the region to be of a gobi like landscape, could Cacti still grow there?
Håvard
Håvard
Now my maps are down, probably because I posted them also in the Italian Message boards, which may explain the extra traffic on my web archive of maps. Be patient. If you need them urgentely I can send them to you by e-mail.
About Abaddon Wastes, I think it's really a good idea; the Abaddon Woods are already a haunted place during B3 events. Maybe this region turned to a desert due to a very powerful curse (the haunting of the woods being only its beginning).
I was also thinking about the evil female mage in the Thunder Mountains, described in B3. She lives in a huge empty oak, and she seems to control thunderstorms. Maybe she is an elf, and so probably she is still alive. Maybe the mage herself is the source of the curse of the plateau...
By the way, the thunderstorms on the mountains around her lair could be the source of water for the seasonal flow of river Devoki.
About the elven clan: it could be also an offshot of Ilsundal migration, (that seems to pass north of the Adri Varma in its voyage to the Sylvan Realm); in such a case this colony should be very ancient, dating from 2200-2150BC.
I think that dwarves still live in the nearby, even if they are a little dispersed. If you like, you can place Thunderdelve in the ruins of the dwarven colony, thus adding further details of the northern region of the map.
In Thunderdelve module there are cited a place called Rumble Bell, a goblin lair, bugbears, ogres, thouls, stone giants and bandits. Thunderdelve was abandoned about 50 years before the events of the adventure.
About cacti in Gobi Desert, maybe you are right: the climate should be hotter...
- The southern tip of the Mengul mountains is just below 48 degrees north latitude. The Adri Varma runs in the mid forties up to low fifties depending on where you set the complete contours.
-Ilsundal's migration most likely travelled along the southern foothills of the Black Montains - the humans who blamed them for the GRoF (Gaz3) would have been early Urduks in the hills. They met the second elven migration at the start of this trek. They peeled around the Black Mountains and snaked by Adri Varma before entering Urzud territory. After a run in with the beastmen, most of Ilsundal's group went Northwest. The Genalleth got separated and hugged moving glaciers in the northeast till they could crest and turn south into Wendar.
- The Adri Varma is smack on top of where the old polar opening once was. This is based upon a 3D globe rotation. In fact, The best story line would be that the Plateau is in fact the Immortal seal on the old opening. The reason water run off is poisonous for the Sindhi is that its still in "cool down" after 4 thousand years. A bonus to this idea is that the Carnifex 7-keys site would have been in on near the old Anti-Magic zone - what better way to seal in an exiled enemy.
-Some life could survive. With poison as the thematic concept for the land, it could be filled with Manscorpions (before they were on the OHP, they were in Glantri (CM8) and Norwold(CM1)) and brown dragons.
-elves could arrive in the following manners: 1) Ilsundal splinter group, 2) early Alfheim separatists (ala Shiye), 3) Genalleth elves tired of Great Northern Campaigns, 4) elven refugees from the Sylvan Lands who got off on the wrong portal, or 5) magically transported from another location.
Hope these views provide some insight.
-OldDawg
Gulluvia . This is a ruthless place filled with terror. The ruler of
this chaotic nightmare is Lady D’hmis. She rules this barony with a
firm and unforgiving hand. To gain supreme rulership of the tiny
barony, she killed her husband. A prime example of the type of laws
her ladyship favors is one forbidding males, except those in her
service, from being on the streets after the sunset unless accompanied
by a female who is age 15 or older. This law meets little resistance
as everyone fears her baronial guards. Though D’hmis’
warriors are primarily male, her commanders are all females;
tough, chaotic women who instill fear by a mere gaze and who fear
little save D’hmis and the elite male fighters who serve as her
personal
bodyguards and paramours.
Dead Mule . This little shire was once a peaceful place, named
by the group of miners who settled here after their pack mule died.
The shire is now occupied by Gulluvian soldiers, and no one in the
shire seems to know why. All they know is that soldiers camp outside
the shire, and occasionally terrorize the surrounding countryside.
If the mayor knows why the soldiers are here, he isn’t saying.
N.Sau . This small farming village is still untouched by the cruel
hand of D’hmis. The village is so small that there is no tavern or inn
here. A small general store doubles as a tavern or meeting hall
when needed. The main crop grown here is wheat.
Thorold . This lovely little village prides itself on the fact that it
raises the best thoroughbred horses in all of Glantri for the Barony
of Gulluvia. Thorold, though it appears peaceful and perhaps even
lawful, is just as chaotic as Gulluvia. The mayor of Thorold is a
distant cousin of D’hmis, and follows her laws and orders to the
letter. The village is rather large and has three taverns, a general
store, and two smithies.
Mere . This tiny village is primarily inhabited by halflings, though
human folk, elves and dwarves live here too. This village is also
under the protection of Gulluvia, but because it is located so near
the Misty Swamp, D’hmis has little to do with it except at tax time,
which is every three months. Escaped slaves and prisoners come
here to equip themselves before journeying north through the
swamp. Mereians say nothing about the slaves or prisoners, fearing
that D’hmis would send guards to their village to catch them (and
they want as little to do with Gulluvia as possible). This village has
two taverns, one general store, and an inn.
Velders . This canton is under the protection of Gulluvia, though
this does Velders little good. The Gulluvian guards fear the Abaddon
Woods and do not like to travel through it to reach Velders except in large groups. Orcs, kobolds and other vile creatures make
periodic raids on the small farms on the outskirts of the canton.
There is only a trading post in the center of town.
Misty Swamp . No one knows exactly what lies behind the veil of
ever present mist that hovers over the swamp. Some old timers say
that the dwarves who make Anterian Brandy live in the swamp near
their secret ingredient, the swamp water. This is speculation, as no
one really knows what the secret ingredient of Anterian Brandy is.
Others whisper tales of an evil wizard living there in a massive
tower of shiny black stone. Sometimes, in the dead of winter, fierce
thunderstorms can be heard near the swamp, but no one ever sees
any lightning. The only thing people who live near the swamp will
agree on is that most magic users and elves had best stay clear of it
or they will find that their spells will not function properly. One
young magic user tried to catch a rabbit with a web spell near the
swamp one day and ended up with dozens of rabbits, all neatly
webbed, scattered about her feet. She didn’t really mind having the
extra rabbits, but the fact that she couldn’t control her magic
scared her (as it does many other spell casters). She was one of the
fortunate ones; others have not been so lucky.
Once a band of daring adventurers ignored warnings not to venture
into the swamp. Months later only the cleric returned. He told tales
of their battle against creatures made of colored mist, and others
that had no visible form at all. He said they constantly fought
strange looking creatures with three heads, three arms, and three
legs. He told of how their brave elf attempted to cast a magic missile
at a beast who was attacking one of the fighters. Suddenly,
however, the elf changed into a rhinoceros and wandered away into
the swamp. Before any more information could be obtained from the
cleric he died. No wounds could be found, and the folks who found
him swear he must have been scared to death.
The DM can choose how any given spell cast in the swamp will be
changed. The effects should be unexpected by the players, but
instant-death results should not be used. Suggested effects are:
1. Spell backfires on the caster of the party
2. Spell fails: nothing happens
3. Caster throws a different spell of the same level
4. Spell effect is tripled
5. Caster or a member of the party glows for 24 hours
6. Caster or a party member changed into a creature with hit
dice equal to the character’s level: lasts 24 hours
If the D&D® Expert rules are also being used, effects like 5 and 6
can be removed (once the party has left the swamp) by using a
dispel magic spell.
Abaddon Woods . This is a desolate place inhibited by evil
beings, but was once believed to be filled with unicorns, elves,
faeries and other fair creatures. Many expeditions attempting to
destroy the evil lurking here have ventured into the woods, but have
never returned.
Moorfowl Mountains . This ugly, dead, tall range forms a protective
shield that keeps the mist from Misty Swamp from spreading
into the neighboring farmlands. Most folks don’t venture into
the mountains much any more except to hunt for certain types of
moss used by local healers. Evil creatures now roam the mountains
freely and inhabit the mines once worked by the dwarves who
served the Silver Princess. These mines now are barren and not
worth working.
Thunder Mountains . These low pine-covered mountains see
the sunlight infrequently. Most of the time thick storm clouds linger
on the mountain tops — clouds that often erupt into violent thunder
storms. An evil wizardess is rumored to live in the mountains in a
giant hollow oak she uses as a lab. It is believed that it is she who
keeps the thunder storms alive, partly because she fears the light
and partly because it keeps away the curious. Local people don’t
recall anyone ever going into the mountains, and if anyone ever did,
they never returned to tell about it.
Let's call this map "The official Adri Varma", to distinguish it from B3 map. Notice the possible intersection between the road going N from Sind, and the southest road going NW.
Very nice. I believe I did a map (and a couple of other people- Thibault, maybe?) when the "original" B3 was initially released on Wizards' site, though I know that mine at least wasn't nearly as nice looking as this one.
That intersection of the routes would seem to indicate there is something there. Some kind of population center, in all likelihood. Maybe it is an Urduk settlement?
-Forested areas are gone, substituted by desert/wastelands. There is only a small wood in the NW corner of the official Adri varma, which I populated with the elves cited in B3 map.
Hmm. I wonder where those elves come from. First guesses would be either settlers from the initial Ilsundal migration (pre-Sylvan Realm), refugees from the Glantri disaster (c.1700 BC), or settlers from the later elvish colonies in Glantri.
- About dwarves: Your comments are true; these dvarwes could be refugees from Glantri. Old B3 shows two dwarven colony; the first is in the Moor Fowl Mountains and now it is abandoned; the other should be located somewhere in the old Misty Swamp (in my map maybe it is in the hills east of the swamp remanants)
Maybe both colonies are from the indicated time periods. The Moor Fowl Mountains colony might have been the original BC 400 settlers (now long vanished), while the Misty Swamp is the later Glantri-refugees, having gone to the Adri Varma in search of their long-lost brethren after fleeing the persecution.
Nice work on this map, btw!
- The Abaddon woods are replaced by desert on your map. Perhaps this area could now be referred to as the Abaddon Wastes? This way we get to use the (IMO cool) name, and signalize where the woods originally lay. Perhaps it is now a home of angry spirits like Wyrds who miss their old forest?
Maybe it's a petrified forest now?
- If we assume the region to be of a gobi like landscape, could Cacti still grow there?
I seem to recall a post by Bruce Heard on this issue, where he suggested heat-absorbing cacti or something sinister. There are also several posts on cactus-creatures by Gilles LeBlanc on the Vaults.
I think that dwarves still live in the nearby, even if they are a little dispersed. If you like, you can place Thunderdelve in the ruins of the dwarven colony, thus adding further details of the northern region of the map.
In Thunderdelve module there are cited a place called Rumble Bell, a goblin lair, bugbears, ogres, thouls, stone giants and bandits. Thunderdelve was abandoned about 50 years before the events of the adventure.
I meant to post about this in my first response. My initial thought when I saw your Thunder Mountains label was that this could be the location of Thunderdelve mountain. I think it was in the forefront of my mind because of the Rare Metals and Minerals discussion thread going on.
I don't like Abaddon Wastes. I'd prefer woods... maybe a cactus wood or... a petrified one... yessssssssss I really like the petrified wood. With angy wyrds, and maybe also some redcap brownie (from PC1) born good, but converted to evil by the curse.
And what about an old, angry, evil... odic?
Yes, yes, this region is going to be very fun! I'll use it soon ;)
Does anyone have suggestions for placing the town of Relfen? It was featured in Dungeon Magazine #14, a small town high in a mountain pass between kingdoms, which a group of wererats attempt to take over. Only notable for its big cheese factory.
I was thinking somewhere near or on the border of Glantri or Wendar.
Does anyone have suggestions for placing the town of Relfen? It was featured in Dungeon Magazine #14, a small town high in a mountain pass between kingdoms, which a group of wererats attempt to take over. Only notable for its big cheese factory.
Is there any more information about Relfen than that? Otherwise, if you wanted to place it in the NW there, maybe along the trade route that passes between Glantri and Wendar, right in the pass between the mountains and the plateau might work. Or is it actually supposed to be surrounded by mountains?