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Bards in Dragonlance

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
karui_kage
Feb 16, 2006 3:21:08 I told a player of mine about the Bard rule in the DLCS that says they aren't allowed Conjuration (healing) magic. He was a bit disappointed, and was curious if they had anything to compensate them, as he thinks its a fairly substantial loss. Now, I think he may be taking it a bit too much, as he is the type to want compensation for most changes in the negative, but in this case, I can understand, heals are pretty powerful. Should I offer compensation, and if so, what of?

Also, on another bardic note, I bring up the Goodfellow of Branchala from the Holy Order of the Stars. The prestige says they are allowed to spontaneously cast cure spells and such, like a cleric normally would. However, what if I am using the alternate spontaneity casting rule (which I am), that only allows clerics to spontaneously cast domain spells? Since the Goodfellow casts bard spells as divine, and bards aren't normally allowed cures, would this variant then not allow him cures at all? Or should I just add cures to the spell list for the purposes of this prestige?

Much appreciation for any advice.
#2
cam_banks
Feb 16, 2006 8:26:05 I would let bards have the healing spells back. Originally, we took that out so that there wouldn't be any problem with them during the Age of Despair, but since they're not around in the Age of Despair now, it really doesn't matter as much. Consider bardic magic to be both mysticism and sorcery based - it is handled as arcane, but many of the effects are drawn from a knowledge of mysticism. In fact, given that bards are able to cast spells in light armor without a chance of spell failure, I would imagine that you could even say that this has already been implied.

Cheers,
Cam
#3
darthsylver
Feb 16, 2006 13:42:00 Actually if you will read it again it says that Goodfellows do not have the ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.

Also as the prerequisite do not explicitly require any specific bardic qualities this class has no bearing on the bard spell list at all, even if the character becoming a goodfellow is or was a bard previously. In fact the only connection to Bard (other than Branchala) is that the goodfellows spells ALWAYS have a verbal component.

I would also like to point out that in the sidebar just above the class description it states that the Bard cannot multiclass with ANY CLASS (including PRC) that grant power from a deity including the Goodfellow.

I would allow a non-spellcasting Bard to multiclass with a class that gains power from a deity.

Oh yeah thought of something else. The DLCS states that healing magic is the province of Divine spellcasters. Goodfellows choose their spells from the bard spell list and therefore cast them as divine because Branchala gives them these spells. Their are spells on the Bard spell list that lie squarely in the realm of arcane magic. For example: Nystul's Magic Aura, Identify, Haste, Analyze Dweomer (that Goodfellows would be able to avoid the Gods of Magic for, I don't think Nuitari would be too happy about this); so I would not see a problem with Bards having Healing spells if the character wants to push it. I mean come on, divine (IMO) means from the gods, yet Mystics can heal and they have absolutely no connection to the deities for their powers.
#4
Soulsong
Feb 16, 2006 13:56:59 I like the original idea of Bards not being able to cast cure spells (as this helps me with Bards existing before DoSF and the Cataclysm), so I would just ask him to deal with it. If you feel that you absolutely need to compensate him for this ability, you could create some custom spells to re-expand the Bard Spell List options, you might consider a small addition such as +2 to Heal rolls, a small bardic music ability to stabilize fallen comrades, or a +1 to Bardic Knowledge checks, or some combination of all of the above.
#5
karui_kage
Feb 16, 2006 15:11:43 Cam - A good suggestion. I was unsure of why the bards had them taken away in the first place, but your explanation makes sense. I'll probably allow them back, as the group they want lacks a cleric anyways.

Darth - Yeah, I was reading through the book before sleep (after the post) and noticed my mistake. Oops :x I did know about the prerequisites, and how the requirements didnt even require bardic abilities. I see the prestige as sort of a Divine Bard prestige. No lore or songs or anything, but same spell list and such (as Divines). In terms of multiclassing, I understand why, but I don't know where. I looked in the DLCS and such and didn't see it. Does the HOotS mention this rule, that bards cannot multiclass into anything divine? Thanks in advance.

Soulsong - Good suggestions, Im just not sure it'd placate him. I think I may just go with Cam's suggestion and reallow the cures, as it is a small thing to me, but a large thing to him, as they have no cleric (well, they will, but I think he will be without the healing domain). Thanks for the advice!
#6
cam_banks
Feb 16, 2006 15:43:28
Darth - Yeah, I was reading through the book before sleep (after the post) and noticed my mistake. Oops :x I did know about the prerequisites, and how the requirements didnt even require bardic abilities. I see the prestige as sort of a Divine Bard prestige. No lore or songs or anything, but same spell list and such (as Divines). In terms of multiclassing, I understand why, but I don't know where. I looked in the DLCS and such and didn't see it. Does the HOotS mention this rule, that bards cannot multiclass into anything divine? Thanks in advance.

We added sidebars into Holy Orders that talk about the various spellcasting classes and how they interact with the gods. The bard is an ambient spellcaster and since you can't be both an ambient spellcaster and a focused spellcaster at the same time, there aren't any bard/clerics. The chorister PrC (from War of the Lance) and the goodfellow and firebrand and some others from Holy Orders are an effort to make up for that.

Cheers,
Cam
#7
Dragonhelm
Feb 16, 2006 16:06:04
Originally, we took that out so that there wouldn't be any problem with them during the Age of Despair,

Not only that, but healing magic in Dragonlance is the realm of divine magic. Healing doesn't occur in the Age of Despair until the return of the gods. It doesn't occur in the Age of Mortals until the discovery of Mysticism.

Cam's solution of saying that bards are hybrid casters, using both Wild Sorcery and Mysticism, is a great way of allowing bards to use healing spells while maintaining the flavor of Dragonlance magic.
#8
darthsylver
Feb 17, 2006 23:30:50 It does not state that Bards cannot Multiclass into anything Divine. What it states is that a character cannot multiclass into a focused spellcasting (div or arc) class and an unfocused spellcasting (div or arc). For instance. No Bard\Cleric, no Bard\Wizard. Allowing multi-class: Bard\Sorceror, Bard\Mystic (one in the campaign I run-a half kender no less). Now in the Holy Order of the Stars, on page 41 just above the desrciption for the Goodfellow of Branchala, it states that Bards (specifically) cannot multiclass into any class that gains power from a deity (I.E. Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger).

I am a little curious if a character could multiclass as a Bard\Wizard if the Wizard part was renegade. Don't think the powers that be make the distinction that even though he would be a renengade, he would still be using focused arcane magic.
#9
cam_banks
Feb 18, 2006 7:55:29
I am a little curious if a character could multiclass as a Bard\Wizard if the Wizard part was renegade. Don't think the powers that be make the distinction that even though he would be a renengade, he would still be using focused arcane magic.

You're correct, no bard/wizards, either.

Cheers,
Cam
#10
Dragonhelm
Feb 18, 2006 19:00:24 For more info on using various bard types in Krynn, check out Dragonhelm's Guide to the Bards of Krynn.
#11
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2006 14:21:30 Great article Dragonhelm!!!

Is there a Int based bard? I think an easy fix for the bard is to use a spellbook like a wizard (just like the assassin) and leave all bardic abilities based on Charisma.

By the time primal sorcery is available this is not necessary, and becomes optional after WoS.
#12
Dragonhelm
Feb 20, 2006 16:03:55
Is there a Int based bard? I think an easy fix for the bard is to use a spellbook like a wizard (just like the assassin) and leave all bardic abilities based on Charisma.

Check out the Bardic Sage from Unearthed Arcana. I believe they use Int to determine spell level, etc. and Cha to determine the save DC.
#13
cam_banks
Feb 20, 2006 17:56:01
Is there a Int based bard? I think an easy fix for the bard is to use a spellbook like a wizard (just like the assassin) and leave all bardic abilities based on Charisma.

3.5 assassins don't use spellbooks. They're spontaneous casters like sorcerers.

Cheers,
Cam
#14
clarkvalentine
Feb 20, 2006 18:45:07
Check out the Bardic Sage from Unearthed Arcana. I believe they use Int to determine spell level, etc. and Cha to determine the save DC.

Drawing inspiration from feats in Legneds of the Twins, you could also invent a feat - "Scholarly Bard", or something - that transfers to Int the determination of max spell level.

This is off the cuff, so there might be unbalancing factors I haven't thought about.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 karui_kage Feb 16, 2006 3:21:08	I told a player of mine about the Bard rule in the DLCS that says they aren't allowed Conjuration (healing) magic. He was a bit disappointed, and was curious if they had anything to compensate them, as he thinks its a fairly substantial loss. Now, I think he may be taking it a bit too much, as he is the type to want compensation for most changes in the negative, but in this case, I can understand, heals are pretty powerful. Should I offer compensation, and if so, what of? Also, on another bardic note, I bring up the Goodfellow of Branchala from the Holy Order of the Stars. The prestige says they are allowed to spontaneously cast cure spells and such, like a cleric normally would. However, what if I am using the alternate spontaneity casting rule (which I am), that only allows clerics to spontaneously cast domain spells? Since the Goodfellow casts bard spells as divine, and bards aren't normally allowed cures, would this variant then not allow him cures at all? Or should I just add cures to the spell list for the purposes of this prestige? Much appreciation for any advice.
#2 cam_banks Feb 16, 2006 8:26:05	I would let bards have the healing spells back. Originally, we took that out so that there wouldn't be any problem with them during the Age of Despair, but since they're not around in the Age of Despair now, it really doesn't matter as much. Consider bardic magic to be both mysticism and sorcery based - it is handled as arcane, but many of the effects are drawn from a knowledge of mysticism. In fact, given that bards are able to cast spells in light armor without a chance of spell failure, I would imagine that you could even say that this has already been implied. Cheers, Cam
#3 darthsylver Feb 16, 2006 13:42:00	Actually if you will read it again it says that Goodfellows do not have the ability to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells. Also as the prerequisite do not explicitly require any specific bardic qualities this class has no bearing on the bard spell list at all, even if the character becoming a goodfellow is or was a bard previously. In fact the only connection to Bard (other than Branchala) is that the goodfellows spells ALWAYS have a verbal component. I would also like to point out that in the sidebar just above the class description it states that the Bard cannot multiclass with ANY CLASS (including PRC) that grant power from a deity including the Goodfellow. I would allow a non-spellcasting Bard to multiclass with a class that gains power from a deity. Oh yeah thought of something else. The DLCS states that healing magic is the province of Divine spellcasters. Goodfellows choose their spells from the bard spell list and therefore cast them as divine because Branchala gives them these spells. Their are spells on the Bard spell list that lie squarely in the realm of arcane magic. For example: Nystul's Magic Aura, Identify, Haste, Analyze Dweomer (that Goodfellows would be able to avoid the Gods of Magic for, I don't think Nuitari would be too happy about this); so I would not see a problem with Bards having Healing spells if the character wants to push it. I mean come on, divine (IMO) means from the gods, yet Mystics can heal and they have absolutely no connection to the deities for their powers.
#4 Soulsong Feb 16, 2006 13:56:59	I like the original idea of Bards not being able to cast cure spells (as this helps me with Bards existing before DoSF and the Cataclysm), so I would just ask him to deal with it. If you feel that you absolutely need to compensate him for this ability, you could create some custom spells to re-expand the Bard Spell List options, you might consider a small addition such as +2 to Heal rolls, a small bardic music ability to stabilize fallen comrades, or a +1 to Bardic Knowledge checks, or some combination of all of the above.
#5 karui_kage Feb 16, 2006 15:11:43	Cam - A good suggestion. I was unsure of why the bards had them taken away in the first place, but your explanation makes sense. I'll probably allow them back, as the group they want lacks a cleric anyways. Darth - Yeah, I was reading through the book before sleep (after the post) and noticed my mistake. Oops :x I did know about the prerequisites, and how the requirements didnt even require bardic abilities. I see the prestige as sort of a Divine Bard prestige. No lore or songs or anything, but same spell list and such (as Divines). In terms of multiclassing, I understand why, but I don't know where. I looked in the DLCS and such and didn't see it. Does the HOotS mention this rule, that bards cannot multiclass into anything divine? Thanks in advance. Soulsong - Good suggestions, Im just not sure it'd placate him. I think I may just go with Cam's suggestion and reallow the cures, as it is a small thing to me, but a large thing to him, as they have no cleric (well, they will, but I think he will be without the healing domain). Thanks for the advice!
#6 cam_banks Feb 16, 2006 15:43:28	Darth - Yeah, I was reading through the book before sleep (after the post) and noticed my mistake. Oops :x I did know about the prerequisites, and how the requirements didnt even require bardic abilities. I see the prestige as sort of a Divine Bard prestige. No lore or songs or anything, but same spell list and such (as Divines). In terms of multiclassing, I understand why, but I don't know where. I looked in the DLCS and such and didn't see it. Does the HOotS mention this rule, that bards cannot multiclass into anything divine? Thanks in advance. We added sidebars into Holy Orders that talk about the various spellcasting classes and how they interact with the gods. The bard is an ambient spellcaster and since you can't be both an ambient spellcaster and a focused spellcaster at the same time, there aren't any bard/clerics. The chorister PrC (from War of the Lance) and the goodfellow and firebrand and some others from Holy Orders are an effort to make up for that. Cheers, Cam
#7 Dragonhelm Feb 16, 2006 16:06:04	Originally, we took that out so that there wouldn't be any problem with them during the Age of Despair, Not only that, but healing magic in Dragonlance is the realm of divine magic. Healing doesn't occur in the Age of Despair until the return of the gods. It doesn't occur in the Age of Mortals until the discovery of Mysticism. Cam's solution of saying that bards are hybrid casters, using both Wild Sorcery and Mysticism, is a great way of allowing bards to use healing spells while maintaining the flavor of Dragonlance magic.
#8 darthsylver Feb 17, 2006 23:30:50	It does not state that Bards cannot Multiclass into anything Divine. What it states is that a character cannot multiclass into a focused spellcasting (div or arc) class and an unfocused spellcasting (div or arc). For instance. No Bard\Cleric, no Bard\Wizard. Allowing multi-class: Bard\Sorceror, Bard\Mystic (one in the campaign I run-a half kender no less). Now in the Holy Order of the Stars, on page 41 just above the desrciption for the Goodfellow of Branchala, it states that Bards (specifically) cannot multiclass into any class that gains power from a deity (I.E. Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger). I am a little curious if a character could multiclass as a Bard\Wizard if the Wizard part was renegade. Don't think the powers that be make the distinction that even though he would be a renengade, he would still be using focused arcane magic.
#9 cam_banks Feb 18, 2006 7:55:29	I am a little curious if a character could multiclass as a Bard\Wizard if the Wizard part was renegade. Don't think the powers that be make the distinction that even though he would be a renengade, he would still be using focused arcane magic. You're correct, no bard/wizards, either. Cheers, Cam
#10 Dragonhelm Feb 18, 2006 19:00:24	For more info on using various bard types in Krynn, check out Dragonhelm's Guide to the Bards of Krynn.
#11 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2006 14:21:30	Great article Dragonhelm!!! Is there a Int based bard? I think an easy fix for the bard is to use a spellbook like a wizard (just like the assassin) and leave all bardic abilities based on Charisma. By the time primal sorcery is available this is not necessary, and becomes optional after WoS.
#12 Dragonhelm Feb 20, 2006 16:03:55	Is there a Int based bard? I think an easy fix for the bard is to use a spellbook like a wizard (just like the assassin) and leave all bardic abilities based on Charisma. Check out the Bardic Sage from Unearthed Arcana. I believe they use Int to determine spell level, etc. and Cha to determine the save DC.
#13 cam_banks Feb 20, 2006 17:56:01	Is there a Int based bard? I think an easy fix for the bard is to use a spellbook like a wizard (just like the assassin) and leave all bardic abilities based on Charisma. 3.5 assassins don't use spellbooks. They're spontaneous casters like sorcerers. Cheers, Cam
#14 clarkvalentine Feb 20, 2006 18:45:07	Check out the Bardic Sage from Unearthed Arcana. I believe they use Int to determine spell level, etc. and Cha to determine the save DC. Drawing inspiration from feats in Legneds of the Twins, you could also invent a feat - "Scholarly Bard", or something - that transfers to Int the determination of max spell level. This is off the cuff, so there might be unbalancing factors I haven't thought about.