I have a question for anyone who owns the 1st version of the Isle of Dread (blue cover): does it include the map and overview of the "Known World" that is in the Orange cover version? It seems to me that it came out after the Mentzer Expert and Basic sets (it was included with the Expert boxed set), and that the Known World didn't exist prior to the Mentzer versions, but I don't own the blue Isle of Dread so I can't be certain.
From this site:
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd/dd-x1.htm
I am getting the impression that it does. BTW, I was under the impression that the IoD had orginally been written by Gygax himself, but I can see that this version (2nd print, blue cover) was also written by Cook and Moldway.
Another argument why X1 belongs firmly with Mystara and not with Greyhawk...
Håvard
I can remember having nothing else and still having a wonderful DnD experience. Funny how just names on a map can make that happen.
--Ray.
I own it. It does have the Known World map and overview.
Hm. Interesting. I was under the impression that Frank Mentzer had done all of that, and that the "Known World" map hadn't been created/appeared until the Mentzer boxed sets. So the origins of Mystara go back further than I had thought- all the way back to the Moldvay Expert set at least (1980, as opposed to '83).
Just in case you were wondering why I was asking, I'm finally getting around to updating the FAQ. Hopefully will have a more comprehensive update for the boards really soon.
New version - large head caved into wall, mouth open forming a tunnel down which you can walk.
Old version - carved head is much smaller above a tunnel entrance, with an inside picture to show how it worked.
Why do I remember this? - simple, my DM for this had the new version and got confused by the map and thought the tunnel dead-ended in a wall rather than going through the mouth. The original version, whilst less decorative, was a lot easier to understand in a hurry. (Hmm, that must have been about 18 years ago that I played it - funny what sticks in a memory.)
Just in case you were wondering why I was asking, I'm finally getting around to updating the FAQ. Hopefully will have a more comprehensive update for the boards really soon.
I kept on meaning to ask you about that
But when it came time to release the blue X1, they needed a map to go with the island, and he produced what he had, and they ran with it.
I assume the map was made after the Basic set was released with the Karameikos map, but I can't be sure.
This must have been discussed on the MML back in the '90's. I wouldn't have read the story elsewhere.
What I have found is that X1 was originally released in 1981 with the Known World and Sea of Dread map, along with the Expert Set which included the Known World map. I bought a copy of blue cover X1 last year, so I can confirm the date.
Incidentally, the X1 cover lists 1980, while the booklet says 1981. According to the Acaeum web site, 1980 is correct for the first printing, while on the other hand the same web site says that 1981 is correct for the Expert Set. I'm sure I saw somewhere that the Expert Set and X1 were originally released in January 1981, which could explain these copyright date problems. It seems likely that both originated in 1981, since they were seemingly released at the same time - X1 was packaged with the Expert Set, as well as being sold separately.
So, it seems that our Known World was first introduced in the shape of these two maps, in early 1981. As to who did the maps, on that point I have uncovered no information. I should state that the two maps are not identical - one is a redrawn version of the other, judging by ever so slight differences in the coastlines, rivers and roads. (These also seem to be ever so slightly offset from the hex grid if you compare the two maps by superimposing them.)
Text-wise, the Known World's original descriptions were given by David Cook and Tom Moldvay in X1. Interestingly, David Cook was apparently responsible for the Expert Set's Karameikos information, as he was the original editor of the first version of the Expert Set.
This whole topic would I'm sure be made a lot easier if I had access to copies (or at least PDF copies) of all the products in question!
I'm curious, though, now that I've started this thread. Does anyone own the Moldvay/Cook Expert set? I read earlier that Karameikos actually appeared in that set before it appeared in Mentzer's Expert set. If so, that sheds even more light on the development of Mystara.
Interesting timing on this question, as I have also been looking into this recently.
Yes, well- I have come to think that we Mystarans share brain cells. I can't tell you how many times Havard has brought up subjects here or on the MML that I was recently thinking about.
What I have found is that X1 was originally released in 1981 with the Known World and Sea of Dread map, along with the Expert Set which included the Known World map. I bought a copy of blue cover X1 last year, so I can confirm the date.
That partially answers my question above. Do you mean the Expert set with the Wizard, or the Elmore cover? If so, does it have Karameikos information in it as well?
(Come to think of it, I think it does. In fact, I think it has information on gnomes and ferrets and their dens in Karameikos- as well as a map- that the Mentzer set leaves out. That memory just popped up from nowhere...)
The map was drawn by Francois Froideval, and developed somewhat by Moldvay/Cook in X1 (though I hadn't realized that before this thread, obviously). Frank Mentzer talks a little bit about it in this thread on Dragonsfoot.
Andrew, are you sure that's the right thread? All that Frank attributes Francois Froideval with in that thread is coming up with the "Pangaea" concept of placing the Known World on a map of ancient Earth. He doesn't mention who might have worked on the original Known World hex map.
Maybe we should ask him, although he might very well not know.
I'm curious, though, now that I've started this thread. Does anyone own the Moldvay/Cook Expert set? I read earlier that Karameikos actually appeared in that set before it appeared in Mentzer's Expert set. If so, that sheds even more light on the development of Mystara.
I'm pretty sure that it appeared, but I can't confirm it. I'm 75% sure that I have a copy of the old Expert Set (or at least the book) at home in Orkney, but I have yet to ask my brother to find it for me. (He doesn't seem to respond well to being asked to look very-carefully-without-spoiling-anything-leaving-everything-exactly-as-it-was-when-you've-finished through my D&D stuff. ;) )
I wish they sold it in PDF form, but unfortunately as of now they only sell the old Basic set.
Yes, well- I have come to think that we Mystarans share brain cells. I can't tell you how many times Havard has brought up subjects here or on the MML that I was recently thinking about.
Hehe. I guess it just means a lot of us think on the same wavelength. :D
That partially answers my question above. Do you mean the Expert set with the Wizard, or the Elmore cover? If so, does it have Karameikos information in it as well?
(Come to think of it, I think it does. In fact, I think it has information on gnomes and ferrets and their dens in Karameikos- as well as a map- that the Mentzer set leaves out. That memory just popped up from nowhere...)
Don't take my word for it - if I am wrong about having the original Expert book at home, then I am an entirely unreliable source as it will mean that I have in fact never seen it! :P
But I didn't know about the gnome and ferret references. I'll have to ask my brother when I get home from work in a few hours.
I bought it off a friend at school who had upgraded to AD&D when I was just starting...
Page X61 has a map of the Dutchy of Karameikos, quite an interesting one too. There is a brief description of the Grand Dutchy, Stephan III ruling it, but no mention of neighbouring countries (though Wereskalot and Selenica are marked).
The most interesting bits are that the county borders are at a larger hex scale than the map (looks to be at 8mi/hex but does not say, making the borders 24) and "the Lost Valley" is marked as over (what to us is) the Darokin border.
Other marked settlements are Fortdoom (one word), Luln, the estate of Marilenev, Krakatos, Specularum and 'Haunted Keep'.
There's a map symbol present missing from later versions - "Caves", it seems to be used 12 times on the map:
In Karameikos it is next to Frost Giants, Bugbears, Goblins, Orcs, Gnomes and unmarked.
Outside: Goblins (in the shires) Dwarves, Goblins, Kobolds, Kobolds and unmarked (Darokin).
The trade road from Selenica flows ENE (towards Ylaruam) but not is any other direction - interesting.
Now, as to who created it? - pass - Illustrations are Jeff Dee, Wade Hampton, David S LaForce, Erol Otus, Jim Roslof and Bill Willingham - but that does not mean the map was.
Oh yes, people call this the Moldavay rules - my copy says Edited by David Cook with Steve Marsh.
Curious point 2 - the cover says copyright 1980, the front page says 1974, 1977, 1978, 1981 and then gives the first printing as January 1981, this means the cover has to be wrong, I guess they had a release date delay and the cover was not altered to reflect this.
Comparing Basic Rules (Moldvay), Expert Rules (Cook & Marsh) and X1 (Cook and Moldvay)
All of them have Copyright 1980 on the cover - but I wonder if that is the TSR logo and not the contents?
The Basic and Expert Rules both give First Printed January 1981 on the first paper page.
X1 does not give a printing date.
The Rules (both) have copyright years of 1974, 1977, 1978 and 1981 on the inside front-sheet reflecting the use of old and new material.
X1 has copyright 1981 inside.
X1 has a continent map similar enough to the later version that I don't see any obvious differences. It also starts with a brief overvew of all the nations and recommends the Expert rules for more info on Karameikos.
(Oh yes, The Karameikos entry in the Expert book does indeed have more info on gnomes than any other part, including a map and description of a typical lair.)
Regarding the confusion with printing dates, you might want to read my post above. I think it stems from the January release, which could mean that some parts were indeed printed in late 1980 in order to meet the January release date.
- Two trails, one between Darokin and Selenica, the other between Castellan and Soderfjord, have been omitted from the 1983 version.
- The "Altan Tepe Mountains" caption in western Rockhome is missing in the 1983 version, and the caption in Karameikos has been shortened to "Altan Tepe Mtns."
- The caption "Cruth Mts." is no longer in brackets in the 1983 version.
- It's possible to make out the terrain underlying the "Heldann Freeholds" caption in the 1981 map, but not in the 1983 map.
- "Rockhome" on the 1981 map is changed to "Rock Home" on the 1983 map.
- Kelvin and Threshold, which were not present on the 1981 map, have been added to the 1983 map.
- The 1981 map's "Princes of Glantri" has been changed to the more familiar "Principalities of Glantri" on the 1983 map.
- The legend is shown slightly higher on the 1983 map, cutting off half of one of the small islands in the Sea of Dread.
- The "Isle of Dread" text is in italics on the original 1981 map, but normal type on the 1983 map.
- Edit: The Alfheim label is missing from the 1981 map! The description is present in the text of the module, though. The name was added in on the 1983 map.
Wow, you would never think at first glance that the maps have so many small differences...
First, the 1981 map:
Next, the 1983 map:
Kheldren, can you compare the maps in the 1981 Expert Set to those in the 1983 (or later) Expert Set, please? It sounds like they are very similar or indeed the same.
Actually they are very different, well slightly...
I cannot see any terrain differences (except for caves) in the common area, but the 1983 is a subset of the 1981 map as it uses larger hexes.
They share the same top and right margins, however the left and bottom are totally different - 1983 goes 4 hexes into the shires, 1981 goes 22 hexes...
To the South the 1981 map goes 11 hexes South of Specularum, 193 manages 1 (missing some Karameikos land). The sea borders are also shown.
Trails: - 1981 has the road from Selenica and nothing else - none of the tracks is Karameikos are marked.
Caves: - the 1981 map has some hills replaced with the cave symbol (a sinle hill shape with a dot in it.
Threshold and Kelven - 1983 only - neither place exists on the 1981 map.
I will see if I can get a decent scan of it
Andrew, are you sure that's the right thread? All that Frank attributes Francois Froideval with in that thread is coming up with the "Pangaea" concept of placing the Known World on a map of ancient Earth. He doesn't mention who might have worked on the original Known World hex map.
It could be. It would certainly explain the "oddness" of the Thyatian peninsula and all on the "Real" Pangaea maps (if you recall my mistaking it for the Serpent Peninsula in another thread recently). If they had to "tack on" the Known World to that map, it might account for the shape (and Frank Mentzer mentions in some thread on Dragonsfoot that he made some changes to Froideval's map, though he doesn't mention in what manner).
Maybe we should ask him, although he might very well not know.
True. I might try dropping a line later today.
[EDIT] It's a long shot, but David "Zeb" Cook is a game designer on City of Villains for NCSoft. I don't know if there is a protocol to follow, or even exactly how to reach him, but if we are able to approach him, he might remember.
It's a long shot, but David "Zeb" Cook is a game designer on City of Villains for NCSoft. I don't know if there is a protocol to follow, or even exactly how to reach him, but if we are able to approach him, he might remember.
If you are able to get his email addy. Its worth shooting him an email. If he is a friendly enough guy and not to busy, I'm sure he will write back. It is probably a good idea to keep it short and friendly though. This has worked for me with a few game designers in the past.
Still havent heard anything from Aaron Allston though, but I guess he probably gets tons of fan mail because of his novels etc...
Håvard
It shows the border of Karamiekos, as well as distinguishing the differences between Darokin/Shires, Shires/Ierendi, Thyatis/Minrothad, and Darokin/Alfheim. The trade road leaving Selenica towards Ylaruam is shown. A Gnomish Lair is marked where Highforge will later be placed. There is no mention of Threshold or Kelvin.
The fact that the borders outside of Karameikos is marked leads me to belive that the KW was created long before it was published. (At least the maps)
X1/Blue Cover includes the KW map on pgs 16/17 as well as one-paragraph descriptions of the nations (pgs 2/3) and a pronunciation guide (pg 4).
That makes me think... The original Greyhawk and Blackmoor suppliments 2&3 contained rules (and a short module, in the case of Blackmoor) but no campaign info. Greyhawk Adventures wasn't published until 81. Does that mean that Mystara, via the '80 Karameikos, was the first published campaign setting? or is there an older GH CS that I don't know about? (I find it hard, since AD&D wasn't published until '79, and the core books weren't finished until the end of '80.
Roger
That makes me think... The original Greyhawk and Blackmoor suppliments 2&3 contained rules (and a short module, in the case of Blackmoor) but no campaign info. Greyhawk Adventures wasn't published until 81. Does that mean that Mystara, via the '80 Karameikos, was the first published campaign setting? or is there an older GH CS that I don't know about? (I find it hard, since AD&D wasn't published until '79, and the core books weren't finished until the end of '80.
Is this really true? It would be amazing if it was, but this is all new information to me...
Håvard
By that account Blackmoor would date from the Temple of the Frog adventure, and Greyhawk from Steading of the Hill Giant Chief or something equally archaic.
A campaign setting is a campaign setting, not just an adventure or mention in a rule book.
Either way, 1980 or 1981, if we're accepting first published mention of the setting as the settings birthdate, then Greyhawk dates back to June 1976, in the Gnome's Cache fiction article in Dragon Mag #1.
And Blackmoor actually exists in the Supplement 2: Blackmoor rule book for OD&D, that one is 1975.
That makes me think... The original Greyhawk and Blackmoor suppliments 2&3 contained rules (and a short module, in the case of Blackmoor) but no campaign info. Greyhawk Adventures wasn't published until 81. Does that mean that Mystara, via the '80 Karameikos, was the first published campaign setting? or is there an older GH CS that I don't know about? (I find it hard, since AD&D wasn't published until '79, and the core books weren't finished until the end of '80.
Roger
First of all, Blackmoor does contain an adventure set in blackmoor.
Second, the Greyhawk CS Folio was published in 1980, but if you insist that that was the birth of GH, not dragon magazine articles or 1st edition AD&D modules, then we need to use the publication of Gaz 1 as the birth of Known World, not the expert set.
I for one am more interested in the internal history of Mystara, its beginnings and its first maps, than with finding out precisely when it was created in relation to other campaign settings.
On that subject: thanks to Kheldren, I understand that the 1981 Expert Set's 6 mile per hex Karameikos map shows a much wider area than the same map in the 1983 set. However, I am still wondering about one thing, and Roger's comments make me wonder even more: was there then no 24 mile per hex Known World map in the original 1981 Expert Set? Was the large scale Karameikos map the only hex map included in the set at that point?
I'm very interested to hear the answer to this question, because if there was originally no Expert Set 24 mile per hex map, that makes X1's map the original source of the Known World. Along with the 6 mile per hex Karameikos map, of course.
One other thing, just for clarification: the original 1981 Expert Set included X1, right?
Was there then no 24 mile per hex Known World map in the original 1981 Expert Set? Was the large scale Karameikos map the only hex map included in the set at that point?
I'm very interested to hear the answer to this question, because if there was originally no Expert Set 24 mile per hex map, that makes X1's map the original source of the Known World. Along with the 6 mile per hex Karameikos map, of course.
Yes. You have all of this correct.
One other thing, just for clarification: the original 1981 Expert Set included X1, right?
This I can not remember. I know I bought a large amount of modules that were bundled together in a four or five pack but I can't remember if X1 was in the bundled packs or if it came with my Expert Rules box set.
--Ray.
One other thing, just for clarification: the original 1981 Expert Set included X1, right?
Yes, according to here: http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd/dd-xbox.htm
and here: http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/SetPages/Expert.html
Yes, according to here: http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd/dd-xbox.htm
and here: http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/SetPages/Expert.html
I know the Acaeum states that it did, but I was hoping for a confirmation from someone who bought the actual set. But the other link you gave, showing the blurb from the back of the box, does confirm the presence of X1. So I am satisfied.
Thanks!
Very interesting. I'll have to get my hands on a copy of the original Expert Set at some point in the future...
was there then no 24 mile per hex Known World map in the original 1981 Expert Set? Was the large scale Karameikos map the only hex map included in the set at that point?
That is correct, the only maps were Karameikos and the square-grid map of the gnome lair.
Interestingly the key for the hex map (over the page) contains both large and small symbols for the mapping system, although only small are used in the product. This includes such things as "ice flow" that I don't remember ever seeing in a map.
I know TSR always claimed the maps were hand-drawn, but I would love to know what happened to the mapping program they used to produce them for publication.
One other thing, just for clarification: the original 1981 Expert Set included X1, right?
Answer: Probably! I know there were two releases of this version of the Basic rules, one with and one without B2 - Keep on the Borderlands, it seems likely that it was also possible to pick up the Expert rules and X1 seperately as well as together.
That is correct, the only maps were Karameikos and the square-grid map of the gnome lair.
Interestingly the key for the hex map (over the page) contains both large and small symbols for the mapping system, although only small are used in the product. This includes such things as "ice flow" that I don't remember ever seeing in a map.
I'd love to see that key. Come to think of it, the Companion set also included lots of new symbols that were never used, so I think they did it deliberately to give the symbols to DMs for their own use. (Wait a minute... The Companion set symbols - I had forgotten them completely! *Runs off to draw all the old style symbols*)
I know TSR always claimed the maps were hand-drawn, but I would love to know what happened to the mapping program they used to produce them for publication.
LOL :D
Let me be the first to join you in that! There is no way that they made the Gazetteer line maps, and most likely many of the maps long before that (even X1's maps...) without a computer program of some sort. What I would give to get my hands on that program...
Answer: Probably! I know there were two releases of this version of the Basic rules, one with and one without B2 - Keep on the Borderlands, it seems likely that it was also possible to pick up the Expert rules and X1 seperately as well as together.
According to the Acaeum, X1 was definitely sold separately. But I haven't heard of the Expert Set without X1 at all, though I have heard what you said about the Basic Set and B2...
Well, this is quite a surprise! Those symbols are the exact same symbols that later came into use in the colour Gazetteer series maps. And yet, the symbols in the 1983 Expert Set are the same, slightly primitive set that appears on X1's map. Moreover, the Companion Set's "New Map Symbols" expand on the primitive set, not these ones.
The two scales mentioned along with the symbols, 1 mile per hex and 36 miles per hex, are almost totally unused on any Mystara maps - of the former there are only two or three, and none of the latter scale that I know of.
This makes me wonder if these symbols are in fact unique to Mystara, or if they didn't originate elsewhere - perhaps as an apparently initially discarded set made for hex maps in general at TSR, for example. Has anyone seen these hex designs in other places? What other settings or products make use of hex maps, anyway?
[EDIT] It's a long shot, but David "Zeb" Cook is a game designer on City of Villains for NCSoft. I don't know if there is a protocol to follow, or even exactly how to reach him, but if we are able to approach him, he might remember.
Guess I've failed my CoH/CoV Knowledge check- seems Cook left Cryptic studios earlier this month. Don't know how I might get in touch with him now.
Guess I've failed my CoH/CoV Knowledge check- seems Cook left Cryptic studios earlier this month. Don't know how I might get in touch with him now.
Perhaps the Cryptic studios guys could hook you up with his private email adress? You would probably have to convince them of your good intentions for them to do that though...
Håvard
Perhaps the Cryptic studios guys could hook you up with his private email adress? You would probably have to convince them of your good intentions for them to do that though...
Go Andrew, we believe in you! You can do it!
