- X11: the 24mph map was used to set all contours for the plateau, with 12, 6, and 4 mph interior maps used to detail Geron, Geffron, and Lothenar, respectively.
- Thorfinn Tait's 8mph Wendar
- WOTI large maps, and CM1 with the terrain information being feathered together (See below)
- Geoff Gander's Northern Wildlands map and his older 1997 map of the plateau
- Andrew Thiesen's (?) placement of Barony Two-Lakes
The key problem with fitting Denagoth is the eastern Mengul Range and the conflicting information with CM1 and later large projects. To mesh them, I placed the ribbon of clear terrain within the southwest mountains of CM1 as a narrow path in the Menguls and used the triangular clear region abutting the Ice Reach mountains as land just north of the Plateau region between the old desert and the northern Geffron forest.
The regions meshed very well, with no lose of any plateau detail.
Thoughts?
-Old Dawg
Also, FWIW, I have a map (incomplete) of the Kingdom of Ghyr that places it in the region just north of Denagoth (and I've tied their histories in together). It can be found here.
I like adding more towns and things into Denagoth/Essuria; it fits with what we know of the region from X11. IMC, and based on the state of anarchy in Essuria, I have most of them as essentially city-states, with only loose ties to one another, and at least a couple of them run by different sects of the Church of Essuria. I haven't fleshed them out much further than that. I also have Warduke's band of marauders wreaking havoc in the area, and Kelek's tower somewhere on the map.
Likewise, I have those northern swamps/marshes populated with Troglodytes and Toad-Men (the Trogs based on their presence in XL-1, and the Toad-men out of personal preference and the mention of the toad-Immortal Stodos, Lord of the Icy Wastes in module MSOLO: Blizzard Pass).
[EDIT] I notice the label for the Throne of He Who Watches, who is the "deity" worshipped in Ghyr in XL-1. Coincidence, or are you thinking of placing Ghyr in that region as well?
Also, FWIW, I have a map (incomplete) of the Kingdom of Ghyr that places it in the region just north of Denagoth (and I've tied their histories in together). It can be found here.
I've seen your map of Ghyr, and I incorporated it into a larger 24mph for all of Brun (still in progress). Terrerrie is just to the left of the map title.
FWIW, Ghyr as an Essurian satellite barony has some problems. Essuria was actually a "good" kingdom through its history according to X11. The only reigns that tarnished the image were the those of the orginal king Nebunar and the last king Landryn Teriak. X11 also drew a distinction between Essuria and the Denagothians. After the fall of Drax Tallen, Landryn found a "primitive people" among which he quickly rose to power. They were never a part of the Essurian sphere of influence.
This also causes some difficulties with the last portion of the proposed Wendarian timeline when the valley is continually raided by Denagothians under Gareth, Minar, and Naga. X11 held the plateau to be mostly unknown to Gylharen of Wendar. I will post elsewhere an editted timeline of the region.
I like adding more towns and things into Denagoth/Essuria; it fits with what we know of the region from X11. IMC, and based on the state of anarchy in Essuria, I have most of them as essentially city-states, with only loose ties to one another, and at least a couple of them run by different sects of the Church of Essuria.
One of the things that I was hoping for was contributions as to what some of these communities might be.
I also have Warduke's band of marauders wreaking havoc in the area, and Kelek's tower somewhere on the map.
Personal preference here, but I omit the Warduke, et al AD&D set in detailing Mystara.
Likewise, I have those northern swamps/marshes populated with Troglodytes and Toad-Men
Do you mean the large swamp that I have labelled "Swamp of the Beast" (with Stodos as the Beast), or the one northeast of the plateau?
[EDIT] I notice the label for the Throne of He Who Watches, who is the "deity" worshipped in Ghyr in XL-1. Coincidence, or are you thinking of placing Ghyr in that region as well?
No coincidence here. Since it's generally accepted that Ghyr is on the western side of the Ice Reach, and He-Who-Watches was the patron in XL1, I took that to mean the patron of the indigenous Antalian-descended folks in the Ice Reach region. The Throne of He-Who-Watches is a taboo table-plain where the barbarian tribes believe that their patron sits to watch over the southern lands.
Henadin's march began from south of here to the east, passing the lakes and using the Route of Henadin to attack Essuria from the east - as per X11 description.
FWIW, Ghyr as an Essurian satellite barony has some problems. Essuria was actually a "good" kingdom through its history according to X11. The only reigns that tarnished the image were the those of the orginal king Nebunar and the last king Landryn Teriak.
Not such a huge problem, though I admittedly don't have my history anywhere terribly convenient (I've modified it somewhat since the version appearing on the Vaults). It was always considered a part of Essuria until the reign of Teriak, which caused divisions across the entire nation, and led to Ghyr splintering into its own kingdom, in my history.
X11 also drew a distinction between Essuria and the Denagothians. After the fall of Drax Tallen, Landryn found a "primitive people" among which he quickly rose to power. They were never a part of the Essurian sphere of influence.
True enough. The Denagothans in my version of Essuria/Ghyr are actually Neanderthals/Brute-Men who were cut off from the outer world for centuries when ice blocked access to the plateau. This is a difference I have made from the Neathar/Beastmen crossbreed that are in the Wendar/Denagoth timeline by DM and Shawn. Essuria itself, as I have it, was colonized and settled by Antalians.
The connection between Nebunar and the Denagothans/Essurians is a bit muddled in X11, though. It mentions that he was a barbarian who conquered the lands of Denagoth and settled/founded Essuria, but it isn't quite clear if he was a Denagothan or not. Same with Henadin. IMO, they are both Antalians, and not Denagothans, but there is some leeway to see it either way, as I read X11.
This also causes some difficulties with the last portion of the proposed Wendarian timeline when the valley is continually raided by Denagothians under Gareth, Minar, and Naga. X11 held the plateau to be mostly unknown to Gylharen of Wendar. I will post elsewhere an editted timeline of the region.
I'll have to post up my most recent version of the Ghyr timeline, as well. It differs from the Wendarian timeline quite a bit in some areas, while trying to maintain a neutral enough position so that both can be used if desired.
Personal preference here, but I omit the Warduke, et al AD&D set in detailing Mystara.
How can you not like Warduke? ;)
(Actually, I agree that some of the LJN/TSR characters are kind of silly, but I really like the picture of Warduke, in his patchwork armor, astride a nightmare, with his band of criminals and bandits, roaming the anarchy of Essuria. I guess it's a Road-Warrioresque sort of vision that appeals to me.)
Do you mean the large swamp that I have labelled "Swamp of the Beast" (with Stodos as the Beast), or the one northeast of the plateau?
The one to the NW. I suppose Stodos could be the beast, or some other sort of creature.
No coincidence here. Since it's generally accepted that Ghyr is on the western side of the Ice Reach, and He-Who-Watches was the patron in XL1, I took that to mean the patron of the indigenous Antalian-descended folks in the Ice Reach region. The Throne of He-Who-Watches is a taboo table-plain where the barbarian tribes believe that their patron sits to watch over the southern lands.
Nice. I like that, especially how you tie that in with Henadin.
The map is quite difficult to understand (at least I found it difficult) and it doesn't match with the SW corner of CM1 map of Norwold.
I tried to merge these maps with the minimum of contrasts and I think that the final result should be something similar to this (this is a bit of a larger map I am drawing for general purposes joining official maps info):
Anyway, I'm not quite sure about the exact shape and extension of Denagothian plateau.
Hope this helps.
I took LoZampatore's map
and overlaid the water bodies and plateau contour (red) from my denagothian map.
Aside from the northern extension of the plateau, the maps fit very well with one another. The label "Landfall" is where the town is from the Denagoth map (obscured by the white border). It too fits very well with the Joshuan map. The blue line of the Naga stops only due to the white border.
the biggest deviation is the location of the Northern Wildlands desert. It should be further south on my map than it is, but I wanted to be minimally conflicting with the Gander map, so I added the Soreth Spur, left the terrain to the south green, and feathered his northern desert/grasses with the woods that appeared on the original largescale map. This is the region labeled as the Hagommer Tribes - a Cimmerian/Gomer inspired group.
On Andrew's comments:
The connection between Nebunar and the Denagothans/Essurians is a bit muddled in X11, though. It mentions that he was a barbarian who conquered the lands of Denagoth and settled/founded Essuria, but it isn't quite clear if he was a Denagothan or not. Same with Henadin. IMO, they are both Antalians, and not Denagothans, but there is some leeway to see it either way, as I read X11.
I vote for Nebunar (the original conquerer) as Antalian who secretly held the Denagothian faith of Idris. Henadin likewise is Antalian-descent.
How can you not like Warduke?
Actually, I do - definitely one of the best drawn figures, along with Mercion. I guess I am just thinking of that paradise future where we could quasi-officially reopen the line with Vault stuff contributions, and wanting to avoid the real-world liscencing problems since LJN is distinct from the Mystara collection.
On the Warduke issue, I would suggest giving the guy a real name. "The Warduke" would just be a nickname, or possibly a title that could be passed on to others along with the gear (helmet etc). If legal issues were ever to become an issue, we could then simply use the characters name and leave the title out, though all true fans would know where the inspiration to the character came from. :D
Håvard
1) what are the populations of the plateau and what are their RW/fictional inspirations?
2) what political nations exist on the plateau? Those that I presently have are for discussion purposes.
3) What would be the key, or at least major, campaign theme for this setting?
4) What special class/powers should be explored in the text?
I'll follow this post with another that has my own thoughts on the matter.
-Old Dawg
Since we've got tacit approval to use Mystaran copyright... and Strongheart was implicitly located within Mystara (Ierendi Gaz)... Warduke can be assumed to be free game (in the sense that we use the rest of Mystara, anyway...
I really don't see any problem here....
Roger
(Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, I know little to nothing about legal matters, I simply have a "good idea" and a few reference resources)
I'll follow this post with another that has my own thoughts on the matter.
I'm eagerly waiting to hear your thoughts. I would add mine, but I know almost nothing when it comes to Denagoth.
Nice map, by the way. It looks like you have done a good job fitting it in with Norwold and Heldann - something that I have been putting off for about a year now, myself. ;)
To "direct" discussion as it were, here are some early questions that need to be asked and answered for a Denagoth Gazetteer
1) what are the populations of the plateau and what are their RW/fictional inspirations?
Not sure. From X11 the main inspiration seemed to be from Tolkien's Mordor/Gondor, although I'm not sure if the Almanacs and fan inspired material took those cultures to a different direction.
2) what political nations exist on the plateau? Those that I presently have are for discussion purposes.
I'm still not clear on these either.
3) What would be the key, or at least major, campaign theme for this setting?
Lets look at how evil nations have been handled in Mystara products in the past:
1)The Orcs of Thar: They are evil, but if you want to play them, we have suggestions of a silly campaign. - Not the way to go with Denagoth IMO.
2)Shadow Elves: They are not evil, just misunderstood, though there are evil fractions among them - An interesting take, but not quite appropriate for Denagoth either IMO.
I suggest that a campaign theme for Denagoth should be that of small bands of rebels fighting against the ShadowLord. I strongly recommend the Midnight Campaign setting for this purpose, as it is also strongly based on Tolkien, and the struggle against an overpowering evil Sauron-like power is the theme of that setting as well.
4) What special class/powers should be explored in the text?
Perhaps a variant of the Avenger theme could be appropriate? Especially if interpreted as the Dark Hero type. Also, the Forrester class could be expanded upon here.
I'd also be tempted to bring in some things for the real badguys. Necromancy, other powers of darkness that make the Shadowlord and his kin nearly invincible would be interesting to see...
Håvard
Perhaps a variant of the Avenger theme could be appropriate? Especially if interpreted as the Dark Hero type. Also, the Forrester class could be expanded upon here.
I'd also be tempted to bring in some things for the real badguys. Necromancy, other powers of darkness that make the Shadowlord and his kin nearly invincible would be interesting to see...
Håvard
Mmmmh
What about an Avenger using necromantic magic, instead of normal clerical spells?
Mmmmh
What about an Avenger using necromantic magic, instead of normal clerical spells?
As discussions elsewhere have revealed, there are several interpretations of what the Avenger class should be like:
1) Anti-Paladin
2) Heroic Dark Avenger
3) Champion of Chaos
My suggestion for including Avengers was primarily for type 2, but actually you are right, evil knights as of type 1, perhaps also equipped with Necromantic M-U spells would work.
Oh, and for some reason my comments were based out of the BECMI rules. If done for 3E, Blackguard Paladins and Rangers would probaby substitute these, and perhaps also some other PrCs...
Håvard
Not sure. From X11 the main inspiration seemed to be from Tolkien's Mordor/Gondor, although I'm not sure if the Almanacs and fan inspired material took those cultures to a different direction.
Definitely Tolkiensque, though not too near to the model.
Denagoth looks like a vast region, with at least one strong nation -- the Lancers are clearly the military forces of the kingdom ruled by the Shadowlord, and they are well trained, well equipped, and disciplined (actually, a bit too much, being all F5).
Since they're medium cavalry, they're probably raised from the people of the Plains of Avien. There are circa 300 Dark Lancers, plus some 500 archers in the Shadowlord's army. It is likely that other human soldiers are needed for guard and patrol duty, raising the total to maybe 1000-1500.
The other main army force are the orcs from the Mengul Mountains.
Teriak was able to mobilize some 3000 orcs, plus 1400 goblins and hobgoblins.
I think it's safe to consider those goblinoids as 20% (wartime army) of those who live under the rule of the Shadowlord.
If so, then there may be some 15000 orcs, 7000 goblins and hobgoblins, and perhaps 60000 humans in Teriak's kingdom. This estimate is rather low -- going by Bruce's spreadsheet, Denagoth could have a population at least twice as large. The Mystaran Almanac pushes this up to 280000, but with 75% goblinoids (so it mostly depends on how large the goblinoid population controlled by the Shadowlord is).
However, there aren't large towns -- the center of power is removed from the inhabited lands, and there's no trace of cities, just a couple of small towns.
Then there's Essuria, which is basically a fallen kingdom. The capitol is all but abandoned, the forests are occupied by sparse goblinoid tribes (northern gnolls, hobgoblins, and bugbears mostly).
The northern farmlands (I assume most of Essuria's farming lands were the southern reaches of the Plains of Avien) may have been absorbed into Denagoth, or else are a collection of small, semi-independent baronies and villages.
Large goblinoid tribes may hold sway over the eastern Mengul -- too far from the Shadowlord reach to be controlled by him or Idris' cult.
Barbarian tribes are found in the Northern Wildlands, as well as beyond the Mengul Mountains.
Perhaps a variant of the Avenger theme could be appropriate? Especially if interpreted as the Dark Hero type. Also, the Forrester class could be expanded upon here.
The OD&D Avenger works well as a villain, using reversed clerical magic.
OTOH, the Forester is not appropriate for Denagoth, since it requires an Ilsundal cult, and the Denagoth elves (estinct, probably) are descendants of the Blackmoor northern elves, while those of Wendar worship the Korrigan.
1) what are the populations of the plateau and what are their RW/fictional inspirations?
Denagoth is the embodiment of 80's barbarian movies, grades A through Z. In particular, the original Marc Singer/Tanya Roberts Beastmaster suggests many themes useable for Denagoth.
the Plains of Avien tribes = villages resemble Dar's home of Emur. Houses on stilts with the village enclosed in a thatched wall.
Denagothians (of the Denagothian Wastes) = the Junn Horde. Another good suggestion was the villans of Road Warrior.
Drax Tallen: under Teriak, this was like the capital under Mayaks. Population subjected to offering up their children to appease Ar (here, Idris).
Other groups would be: Lothenar elves (extinct, but rather unkind to humans), Lothenar pixies/sprites (grim, waging a guerilla war against Vitriol); Geffronell elves (besieged by orcs in north, gnolls in south, bugbears in west; uncertain about outlook yet, but perhaps like the giant "gobblers"), Antalian barbarians of the north worshipping He Who Watches), settled Denagothians (cut-throat, dishonest), Essurian Antalians (anarchic, similar to the Children in Beyond Thunderdome, or the survivors in the Stand) and for something special- THOULS around Drax Tallen.
2) what political nations exist on the plateau? Those that I presently have are for discussion purposes.
The Shadow Lord controls parts of the Denagothian Waste directly from Gareth Minar. His dark lancers and military hold the western plateau between Lothenar and Gefron. Vitriol maintains a dominion over Lothenar, and Brulefer controls the Menguls around the pass to Wendar. The Plains of Avien are not part of his sphere of influence, nor are Essurian ruins. A gold dragon, the one who toasted Landryn, assumed guardianship of Drax Tallen to prevent its evil from rising again - when Landryn became/becomes the Wraith Lord the dragon was gutted and his ribs and skin became the hovel of a blind bugbear.
3) What would be the key, or at least major, campaign theme for this setting?
betrayal, life stealers (Idrisian cult), war against occupiers (one in each forest, others can arise if the Plains are taken, or when the Wraith Lord reasserts control over Drax Tallen.) All of the tribulations eventual originate with Idris and the "Dark Elves".
4) What special class/powers should be explored in the text?
The thoul is a new race-class. The following could be added for ODDers: barbarian, beastmaster, Denagothian Brute (either a "half-orc" or brute-man). Spell/powerwise, the issue of Life/Death magic raised in my Realm of Wendar gets an indepth treatment since we now have multiple wielders available.
Also, any personal names for the Denagothians?
-OldDawg
Does anyone know whether this was a canon character or an invention of one of the Almanac people? In either case, what was his basic story?
Thanks,
OldDawg
BTW, I am about a quarter through an edit of Marco's new regional timeline. I can already tell there are going to be serious inconcruencies with what I'm planning for Denagoth and what I suggested to Geoff about the Northern Wildlands. Soreth and Forenath will still be part of the next two gaz's, and the Nine and Idris are being pulled onto the plateau as their region of origin - not Genalleth. I like the general concept of Darkstalker and the Baamor Fiends and they will be in the NW gaz.
Looking further down the road to Ghyr, the timeline will be bumped up so that XL-1 can be run as a current event adventure (as I did with X11).
One last thing: if you move the Korrigans from Geffronell to Genalleth (and I suppose at this point you want to move the Nine Shrines too), you basically change the whole background for Wendar and Denagoth. Be warned. Unless you do not take in consideration the shrines and simply suppose the Elvenstar can be used everywhere with the same extent of powers... (although that is a bit contradicted by X11..).
The reason the Shadow Lord has limited use of it in X11 is 1) he does not know the proper spell commands, (canon) and 2) he has not set up a series of connecting nodes to extend its range (my addition). This does not mean that there aren't wells in Denagoth that couldn't be tapped. It could also be that the Elvenstar was but a trinket on the plateau in old times.
Placing the origin of the Elvenstar on the plateau is a matter of staying with the intent of X11. Bensarian acquired it from the Geffronell when he offered to do their history. He kept it until the Wizard's War, when he gave it and an instruction manual to Gylharen. He gave it its name, but never really told anyone its origin.
Then there are the non-canon contributions from various people: the Korrigans were local patrons and now creators of the Elvenstar, the star was used on the plateau to stop the Glantri-explosion disease (your old timeline), it was denied use to humans of Forenath (Geoff's timeline), the Korrigans' absence from Wendar's history, etc.
At this stage, I am committed to meta-story consistency across the "Gaz F" line, which of course binds no one else :D I also am committed to not historizing published adventures but to making them playable in the current era.
What I will say at this stage is that 1) the Korrigans were heroes at the time of the plague in Denagoth and created the Elvenstar, 2) after Enoreth's death and the dissolution of the three-part elven nation, the Korrigans construct a philosophy centered on the flow of life and guided the Geffronell, 3) some students learned to twist the teachings and discover the ability to steal or bind life (bringing in the Dark Elves of Gaz7), 4) internal conflict between the nine and the dark elves results in death/banishment, 5) a solitary student escapes the purge, and 6) Idris, either that student or a student of the student, does a "very bad thing"
in the north and earns immortality.But none of this injures the character and history of Wendar as present in "Realm".
-OldDawg
Think of this: the Elvenstar is such a powerful artifact that is the base of Wendar's safety. Without it, Wendar is doomed to fall against the horders of the Shadowlord.
Now, since it is so precious and powerful, and the Geffronell elves MUST know its power since they've been keeping it for centuries, WHY IN THE NAME OF THE KORRIGANS should they give it so easily to some wizened half-elf historian with no real ties to Geffronell??? This has no sense as it stands.
The explanation I gave in the older timeline is just too weak, mind you. So I came up with the new timeline, that has the ruling house of Geffronell hold the Elvenstar because it reigns on Genalleth as well (where the Elvenstar was created and is most useful). Bensarian went to research the Geffronells' history as it is written, but they didn't give the Elvenstar to the scholar because of his "educational merits". Rather it was the last and possible way to PRESERVE the relic and prevent it to fall in the hands of the enemy! That's why Bensarian took it and later gave it to Gylharen: because he foresaw that Gylharen would have used it for the better.
Anyway, that's just my interpretation of the facts, but I advise you to work on that part too, because the facts are not as simple to explain as X11 would have them.. ;)
The new regional timeline has several flaws that need addressing, but the three largest are that there is an expansive elven nation straddling the Menguls for most of the history, the Korrigans and the Elvenstar are longstanding fixtures of the Wendarian common lore, and the common hero-defender essence of Wendar is utterly excised.
All of these are directly counter to canon presentation from X11 through the Almanacs.
As to the Elvenstar, it was not given to Bensarian for his history. For that he received longevity. The Elvenstar was given in exchange for the Blackstick - one relic for another. Throw in a prophesy or Immortal tap on the shoulder of the Geffronell and this makes excellent sense.
If I haven't earned your full enmity yet, I would like to point out a few things I did like:
1) Thane Duncan as a leader of humans in the south. This was something that was really missing from the original story line, a way for humans to be put back on par with the elves.
2) The Baamor Fiends. This is a useful set of bad guys that can be employed in the NW setting. It strikes just the right note of a corrupted enemy, and it dovetails nicely with Idris as the ultimate trouble source for the whole region.
3) The vamping by the high priestess of the whole line of Denagothian rulers.
4) the Onyx Ring and Vitriol: very good creation story, and a secret society to boot. Only quibble, Brulefer works for the Shadow Lord but is not a champion of Idris as is Vitriol. I wouldn't count him among that group of dragons.
5) you distinguished between Denagoth (the west/north) and Essuria. An improvement on the original description.
So at this point :surrender :surrender :surrender
-OldDawg
Even if the maps are closely tied to DM's timeline, I'll post the maps here becouse they're all about Denagothian Plateau.
Enjoy!
(P.S.: I've borrowed Thorf's map symbols from his "Legend" file to draw the map. The solution adopted for the Norwold-Denagoth-Northern Wildlands-Heldannic Territories maps follows the one showed in the map posted by LoZompatore in the "Kingdom of Ghyr Project" thread - I'll post a larger version of it, which includes northern Norwold, if someone is interested. All the data of the map are closely canon-based).
Have you adapted my hexes to hex mapper, then? They seem to be working very well, whatever you have used.
One comment about the colour-coding - would it be possible to lower the transparency of the overlay colours, to make the maps a little clearer? Currently it's a little hard to see which colour is which, especially when there are multiple shades of the same colour.
But it's just a little quibble - I love your work here. In fact, I would very much like to see a lot more maps like this for other parts of the world.
I reread the events as Bensarian describes them in X11 and they go like this:
1. He gets the Blackstick from Halvan and understands it's an evil object
2. He cannot keep the Blackstick anymore, and gives it to the elves of Geffronell
3. In exchange for their help in keeping the Blackstick in a safe location, BENSARIAN offers them to write the history of their kin
4. In order to help Bensarian complete his historical records, the Geffronell give him the Elvenstar in order to prolongue his life and enhance his longevity.
The point of the whole issue is entirely in the last sentence IMO. Giving him the Elvenstar to make him live longer doesn't mean that Bensarian has the property of the Elvenstar. It prolly means he is allowed to access the Elvenstar's powers of rejuvenation to complete his task. And once Denolas falls, he knows enough of the Elvenstar's importance to take it and bring it to Gylharen.
Isn't that sound?
As for the existence of a powerful elven kingdom on the plateau, that's canon from what we read in X11.
Regarding Wendar finally, I would like to point out that nowhere it is stated there was a hero named Wendar who gave the nation its name. It's again everything something that I and Shawn made up, so I do not see anything wrong in changing something about his history (and in fact all the changes I did were for the better IMO, else I wouldn't have proposed them), as long as he remains the founder of the League of Wendar ;)
But again, you're not obliged by any means to follow my revised history: we live in a free world, so write what you like in your almanacs, they remain wonderful products
Since we've got tacit approval to use Mystaran copyright... and Strongheart was implicitly located within Mystara (Ierendi Gaz)... Warduke can be assumed to be free game (in the sense that we use the rest of Mystara, anyway...
Careful there. Warduke has been updated to 3.5 in Dungeon #105 and firmly established as belonging to GH's Horned Society.
Careful there. Warduke has been updated to 3.5 in Dungeon #105 and firmly established as belonging to GH's Horned Society.
Its pretty much the Isle of Dread all over again. And you dont expect us to give up that one do you? Or Blackmoor, or Orcus, or Demogorgon...
Many of these things will simply remain part of several settings...
Håvard
Oh, and for the record: GH never "stole" Blackmoor from the Known World. Blackmoor was its own setting that was later retrofitted to Mystara AND inserted into GH. Frankly, I would have preferred not to see it in GH at all since this has only created headaches for us fans trying to make sense of the setting.
I didn't expect you to "give up" anything. I was only warning you that - officially - the 3.5 Warduke is GH (not that I much care seeing him show up in "my" favorite setting).
Thanks for mentioning it. I wasnt aware that he had been converted actually.
Oh, and for the record: GH never "stole" Blackmoor from the Known World. Blackmoor was its own setting that was later retrofitted to Mystara AND inserted into GH. Frankly, I would have preferred not to see it in GH at all since this has only created headaches for us fans trying to make sense of the setting.
All true. Sorry if I made it sound otherwise. I don't mind a bit of bit of interference between the settings, though IMHO the trick is to keep one setting take precedence over the other(s).
IMC, Mystara is the main setting, but I use elements from Blackmoor, the Wilderlands, Spelljammer etc. However, when contradictions arise, Mystara takes precedence, unless I specifically want to change something...
Håvard
I didn't expect you to "give up" anything. I was only warning you that - officially - the 3.5 Warduke is GH (not that I much care seeing him show up in "my" favorite setting).
I'm not entirely sure what you're warning us against, myself. I think most of us are aware of the Dungeon article with Warduke, and it doesn't really have any bearing on our using him, that I can see.
I wouldn't say it's any more "official" than Lolth being a deity in Greyhawk *and* Oerth (especially given 3.5's cosmology rewrites), or (as Havard points out) Orcus/Demogorgon appearing across the board in various editions (3.5 and everything else).
If someone wants to use Warduke, there's really nothing preventing it, "officiality" or not. Frankly, it's a pretty easy fix either way- Warduke is just a name (a title, really), and a guy with a certain look. Could be two entirely different people under that helmet.
But frankly, I don't think we are going to get jumped on for making reference to any of those characters in our works.
Anyway, I'm sure you all know my opinions on the whole copyright issue, so I'll be quiet now. :P
I think the conversation was about copyrights, hence the warning.
I tend to agree with you about the concerns of copyright issues to most degrees (especially in a case like this; you and I have had some recent discussion of the issue). It was just that the warning was phrased in a far more dire way than seemed necessary, though, given the nature of this project.
It's not as if we were submitting this for profit publication or something, but just a fan "net" product- if that.
What wonderful maps, Zendrolion! Excellent work. :D
Have you adapted my hexes to hex mapper, then? They seem to be working very well, whatever you have used.
Thank you!
I haven't used hex mapper, but, after having slightly modified you legend, I've done a 'copy and past' work with the hexes, and the result is what you see. It's not as perfect as you wonderful maps, but I'm content with it. ;)
One comment about the colour-coding - would it be possible to lower the transparency of the overlay colours, to make the maps a little clearer? Currently it's a little hard to see which colour is which, especially when there are multiple shades of the same colour.
Yes, that's something I tried to do, but I had to choose between a transparency degree that let to be seen the terrain types and one that didn't. I've chosen the latter, but perhaps in near future I'll try to remake the maps according to your suggestion.
RPGPundit
Besides, Denagoth has about two decades of existence as a setting.
having a controlling archmage/high priestess/fiend/emperor over a land/world/galaxy with plucky rebels and folks ducking their heads is not what I would consider an original framework.
-OldDawg
Midnight is a setting from Fantasy Flight games, which is basically a Tolkien-copy world where the "sauron" character won the war, and about a century has passed. The characters usually play members of the last pockets of resistence to the dark lord's rule.
RPGPundit
Elven months are named after the elven zodiac/key signs symbols:
Manticore
Eagle
Chimera
Centaur
Griffon
Warrior
House
Lizard/Dragon
Justice
Nymph
Hydra
Narwahl (replaced with wall or mountain)
I can linguistically evolve the names into Essurian and Denagothian, but I need some good starting points above.
Any suggestions?
-OldDawg
In five days, the Denizens of Denagoth will be available for your campaign.
See the answers to your questions revealed !!!
- the dark mysteries of the one known as Idris
- the dark elves of Antalian lore
- the secret pasts of LJN characters (okay - only hinted at
)- why thouls love yogurt
OldDawg
BTW, yogurt was firts created by a shepherd in Ierendi, wasn't it?