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Politics in gh?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2006 1:44:31 Hi guys,

I'm an old gamer that never left greyhawk, and recently decided to try my hand at d20. I enjoy the pristege classes actually and the game now reminds me of d&d, starwars, and the rpg warhammer rolled into one. However I feel most of the prestige classes fit better for games based on action rather than court intrique. Eborran, and other d20 systems I have looked at have their court intrigue and those classes happen to be written for specific countries too! Greyhawk doesn't? Will there be?

The first line taken from the desciption of GH.

Great adventure, exotic lands, ruthless politics, foreboding dungeons, and fantastic escapes.
#2
Mortepierre
Feb 20, 2006 2:46:58 Eh, "ruthless politics" is there. It's just not something you find a lot in most GH modules. But if you read GH's history (both old & recent), you'll see it has always been a key component of this setting.

A few examples that come to mind:
- Cobb Darg, mayor of Irongate, using the support of the Scarlet Brotherhood to fight the invasion from the Great Kingdom and then turning on the SB's agents before they had a chance to betray him
- Ivid V, the mad Overking, who ruthlessly had many of his nobles & generals transformed into undeads to insure their loyalty
- Crown Prince Lynwerd (of Nyrond) who had to fight his own brother after the latter seized the capital of the kingdom (and their father) in a coup
- The Scarlet Brotherhood which had Prince Latmac (of the Lordship of the Isles) poisoned so that they could place his cousin on the throne, knowing the latter would favor them politically
- Iuz pushing Ket to attack Bissel just to insure Furyondy would lose its allies during the coming battles
- King Skotti (of Keoland) who, when faced with the invasion of his western neighbors, withheld his help till the latter would agree to recognize him as their lawful king

And those are just "recent" events...

Now, on the subject of PrC, I am not aware of many of these being created specifically for politics. Heck, I am not even aware of a few! Apart from intelligence-gathering PrC and those dedicated to gaining control over large numbers of people at once, I can't remember a single one that would operate at 100% only in political games. And I am considering FR & EB when stating this.

Given GH is no longer supported by WotC (at least not directly), we already have to do some fine tuning of our own with PrC currently available. So, don't expect to see any political-minded GH-only PrC available any time soon.

But, after all, you don't need any. You just need ruthless thinking and a will to dirty your hands. Besides, very few DM ever give enough political power to their players for the game to go that way (apart, of course, from Birthright).
#3
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2006 5:00:16 Ruthless politics?

In LG - how about Onnwal and Sunndi selling the Ideeans up the river to Ahlissa in the NAerie Compact to ensure that the SB were expelled from Onnwal?
Or Cobb Darg sitting on his hands while Onnwal suffered for 11 years? (actually this in large part was due to the fact that Irongate was declared Core and the TSS metaregion wasn't allowed "play with Irongate that much).

Or Prince Reydrich doing a deal with Xavener to betray his Naelax cousins (and their plot against the overking) and deliver them into his hands in 587 CY?

Or Basmajian Arras knifing his predecessor in the back to gain the title of Lord High Admiral of the Sea Barons?

Or Grenell selling out Marquis Clement of the Bone March in 561 CY?

Or Princess Karasin of Innspa abandoning her paramour Prince Strychan to join the United Kingdom of Ahlissa?

Or Prince Dilweg and his ceaseless plotting against Overking Xavener?

Or the biggest conspiracy of all - the Conflagration at the Day of the Great Signing and the "Treachery" of Rary.

If you want ruthless politics, you just have to go looking. Ahlissa is a particularly fertile ground for court intrigue, given the Machiavelian bent of the Darmen princes.

"....A prince ought to take care...that he may appear to him who sees and hears him altogether merciful, faithful, humane, upright, and religious. There is nothing more necessary to appear to have than this last quality, inasmuch as men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, because it belongs to everybody to see you, to few to come in touch with you...

"...And you have to understand this, that a prince, especially a new one, cannot observe all those things for which men are esteemed, being often forced, in order to maintain the state, to act contrary to fidelity, friendship, humanity, and religion. Therefore it is necessary for him to have a mind ready to turn itself accordingly as the winds and variations of fortune force it, yet, as I have said above, not to diverge from the good if he can avoid doing so, but, if compelled, then to know how to set about it."

As succinct a summary of the Darmen mindset if I ever saw one - by Niccolo Machiavelli from "The Prince"

;)

P.
#4
pauln6
Feb 20, 2006 6:50:09 On the PrC note - I think that the aristocrat class can make a good politician (since most, if not all politicians would be required to be landed gentry anyway). Judicious use of the expert class is also good enough for a politician. I usually tag on one or two levels of expert if an npc is meant to be a good politician but is of a class (e.g. wizard or fighter) that has limited access to the relevant skills.
#5
zombiegleemax
Feb 20, 2006 22:13:21 lol,

Each of you are correct in that the stage for politics in GH has been set. I think what I failed to get at was the material published fails at this. One would think since GH is ripe with intrique and politics you wouldd see prestige classes, feats & skills better support intrique in the world of greyhawk. That leaves it up to us the dm to tailor the material to better fit GH.

So has anyone started doing this, and are you willing to share?

I am not willing to pick up eborran, but I did see a dark lantern prestige class that intriqued me. Comments?
#6
Mortepierre
Feb 21, 2006 4:12:00
One would think since GH is ripe with intrique and politics you wouldd see prestige classes, feats & skills better support intrique in the world of greyhawk.

Not necessarily. It depends a lot on what your players want to do with their gaming time. I suspect most would happily spend hours in a dusty old dungeon rather than argue politics with the king.

Usually, players start getting an interest in politics only when their characters rise to the point where they:
a) desire benefits only available through politics (title, land, followers, etc..)
b) need something money & spells can't get them (i.e. the Oracle will talk to them, but only if the King speaks on their behalf)
c) are of high-enough lvl that they feel they should have a say in how their country is run (probably after one visit too many by the tax collector)

Which isn't to say you can't get them into a political game sooner than that but, unless they are all of the Machiavel's school of thought, they'll probably get bored real fast and go back to hunting dragons & looting dungeons.

Birthright had some good in-game tools to involve players in politics, some of which can easily be adapted to other settings.

Personally, I found the era just after the Greyhawk Wars to be rife with opportunities. My players began in Nyrond (585 CY) with the old Dungeon adventure The Ghost of Mistmoor (issue #35). By the end of it, they were hooked with a local minor nobleman whose fortunes had now improved because of them. He offered to be their "patron" in exchange for their loyalty. They all accepted and thus received impressive (but empty) titles within the barony (i.e. Chief Warden for the ranger, Court Wizard for the wizard, etc..).

It made them feel important but, essentially, gave them a reason to stick around and actually care for the locals.

They had a few adventures within the barony that enabled them to earn the natives' respect at the same time as it improved the barony's standing within the duchy.

Next, the baron asked them to deliver his back-taxes to the king. Upon arriving at the capital, they each became pawns in the political game of various factions AND were around when a military coup occured. By clearly siding with the rebels, they helped replace the king by his eldest son (earning the latter's gratitude). This action also earned them powerful enemies both within and without the kingdom.

From there, they became a kind of "king's men" special team, travelling throughout the kingdom to solve all kinds of problems, often returning to the barony to rest.

I found it an effective way to involve my players in politics without boring them to death with paperwork, ceremonies, and endless talks (although the paladin now groans every time they drop by the palace and a horde of sycophants swarm around to curry favor with him).

The best part is that I didn't have to "force" them into it. I only provided opportunities. Some they took, some they refused to touch. But at the end of the day, they can truly say that where they stand right now is where they decided to be on their own.

I didn't need to develop new feats, skills, or PrC to do this. The system, as it exists, works fine. Diplomacy, Forgery, Knowledge (nobility), Deceitful, Negotiator, etc.. all have a part to play in politics. It's just that few players invest in them normally. But the possibility is there.

That said, the Noble class and the Master Ambassador PrC from the Dragonlance setting are very well suited to political games.
#7
zombiegleemax
Feb 22, 2006 0:47:40 Mortepierre,

Sounds like you run a good game.

It depends a lot on what your players want to do with their gaming time. I suspect most would happily spend hours in a dusty old dungeon rather than argue politics with the king.

That is very true. I have found that most players exspect a certain amount of blood shed. I try to involve intrique and politics when the story calls for such. I am careful not to get carrried away with endless talk and I push the story along when needed. With a bit of cleverness I can pull this off without the players realizing I am doing so and as such keep the story well paced. Ah... a dms work is never done.

My current headache is incorporating the d20 system into my brain! Something not easily done after playing more than 20+ years with maverick rules and my own a since of how things should be. My current group not new to the d20 rules expects to use material from all the source books.... except when we play in the midnight campaign. Midnight has it own strictures on game material and not all d20 things are included! Since it's published d20 material they seem to accept this.

I have found my players are facinated and even drool over the new stuff they discover in the pages of a newly purchased book. I wish I had such material from GH for them. A few of my players are very pro Eborran. I know little of this world they hold in high regards. Something I hope to stir in them with GH. However its going to be hard to overcome that new world smell.

How do I present d20 GH material in a timely fashion that allow the players to live and breath GH. Half of my group is d20 only and wouldn't much consider material out the scope of the d20 system. Besides compared to the newer written material with the lovely artwork I doubt they'd flip more than a couple pages of the old stuff.

I feel like I am running to catch up with players who have been exposed to out of the box tailor made campaigns such as eborran and midnight. I am not able to provide that kind of material for my players casual consumption and as such think I will have some control issues with core products.

My gut feeling tells me most my problems will melt away with trust. We know each other but just have a difference on how a game should be run, and a matter of taste on what gaming world we prefer.
#8
Mortepierre
Feb 22, 2006 3:20:22 But that's the beauty of GH! In 3.XE, GH is all fluff. The crunch is made of whatever gaming accessory WotC publishes (except those for other settings). The catch is that the DM [namely, you] gets to decide what is appropriate and what's not.

Of course, I can understand that - to an "old school" DM - the amount of new material can be overwhelming. Try to make them understand that. Begin by using stuff from the core books (PHB, DMG, MM) and then slowly adding other sourcebooks as you get a chance to read them (probably the "Complete .." series first, then "Races of ..", etc..).

There will come a time, though, when you'll have to say "no!". It's all well and good for players to drool over two dozens accessories; it's quite another for them to expect their DM to instantly incorporate such into his campaign. If they grumble at the news, remind them that while all they have to do is show up to play, all the hard work is done by you. That should entitle you to some leeway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2006 1:44:31	Hi guys, I'm an old gamer that never left greyhawk, and recently decided to try my hand at d20. I enjoy the pristege classes actually and the game now reminds me of d&d, starwars, and the rpg warhammer rolled into one. However I feel most of the prestige classes fit better for games based on action rather than court intrique. Eborran, and other d20 systems I have looked at have their court intrigue and those classes happen to be written for specific countries too! Greyhawk doesn't? Will there be? The first line taken from the desciption of GH. Great adventure, exotic lands, ruthless politics, foreboding dungeons, and fantastic escapes.
#2 Mortepierre Feb 20, 2006 2:46:58	Eh, "ruthless politics" is there. It's just not something you find a lot in most GH modules. But if you read GH's history (both old & recent), you'll see it has always been a key component of this setting. A few examples that come to mind: - Cobb Darg, mayor of Irongate, using the support of the Scarlet Brotherhood to fight the invasion from the Great Kingdom and then turning on the SB's agents before they had a chance to betray him - Ivid V, the mad Overking, who ruthlessly had many of his nobles & generals transformed into undeads to insure their loyalty - Crown Prince Lynwerd (of Nyrond) who had to fight his own brother after the latter seized the capital of the kingdom (and their father) in a coup - The Scarlet Brotherhood which had Prince Latmac (of the Lordship of the Isles) poisoned so that they could place his cousin on the throne, knowing the latter would favor them politically - Iuz pushing Ket to attack Bissel just to insure Furyondy would lose its allies during the coming battles - King Skotti (of Keoland) who, when faced with the invasion of his western neighbors, withheld his help till the latter would agree to recognize him as their lawful king And those are just "recent" events... Now, on the subject of PrC, I am not aware of many of these being created specifically for politics. Heck, I am not even aware of a few! Apart from intelligence-gathering PrC and those dedicated to gaining control over large numbers of people at once, I can't remember a single one that would operate at 100% only in political games. And I am considering FR & EB when stating this. Given GH is no longer supported by WotC (at least not directly), we already have to do some fine tuning of our own with PrC currently available. So, don't expect to see any political-minded GH-only PrC available any time soon. But, after all, you don't need any. You just need ruthless thinking and a will to dirty your hands. Besides, very few DM ever give enough political power to their players for the game to go that way (apart, of course, from Birthright).
#3 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2006 5:00:16	Ruthless politics? In LG - how about Onnwal and Sunndi selling the Ideeans up the river to Ahlissa in the NAerie Compact to ensure that the SB were expelled from Onnwal? Or Cobb Darg sitting on his hands while Onnwal suffered for 11 years? (actually this in large part was due to the fact that Irongate was declared Core and the TSS metaregion wasn't allowed "play with Irongate that much). Or Prince Reydrich doing a deal with Xavener to betray his Naelax cousins (and their plot against the overking) and deliver them into his hands in 587 CY? Or Basmajian Arras knifing his predecessor in the back to gain the title of Lord High Admiral of the Sea Barons? Or Grenell selling out Marquis Clement of the Bone March in 561 CY? Or Princess Karasin of Innspa abandoning her paramour Prince Strychan to join the United Kingdom of Ahlissa? Or Prince Dilweg and his ceaseless plotting against Overking Xavener? Or the biggest conspiracy of all - the Conflagration at the Day of the Great Signing and the "Treachery" of Rary. If you want ruthless politics, you just have to go looking. Ahlissa is a particularly fertile ground for court intrigue, given the Machiavelian bent of the Darmen princes. "....A prince ought to take care...that he may appear to him who sees and hears him altogether merciful, faithful, humane, upright, and religious. There is nothing more necessary to appear to have than this last quality, inasmuch as men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, because it belongs to everybody to see you, to few to come in touch with you... "...And you have to understand this, that a prince, especially a new one, cannot observe all those things for which men are esteemed, being often forced, in order to maintain the state, to act contrary to fidelity, friendship, humanity, and religion. Therefore it is necessary for him to have a mind ready to turn itself accordingly as the winds and variations of fortune force it, yet, as I have said above, not to diverge from the good if he can avoid doing so, but, if compelled, then to know how to set about it." As succinct a summary of the Darmen mindset if I ever saw one - by Niccolo Machiavelli from "The Prince" ;) P.
#4 pauln6 Feb 20, 2006 6:50:09	On the PrC note - I think that the aristocrat class can make a good politician (since most, if not all politicians would be required to be landed gentry anyway). Judicious use of the expert class is also good enough for a politician. I usually tag on one or two levels of expert if an npc is meant to be a good politician but is of a class (e.g. wizard or fighter) that has limited access to the relevant skills.
#5 zombiegleemax Feb 20, 2006 22:13:21	lol, Each of you are correct in that the stage for politics in GH has been set. I think what I failed to get at was the material published fails at this. One would think since GH is ripe with intrique and politics you wouldd see prestige classes, feats & skills better support intrique in the world of greyhawk. That leaves it up to us the dm to tailor the material to better fit GH. So has anyone started doing this, and are you willing to share? I am not willing to pick up eborran, but I did see a dark lantern prestige class that intriqued me. Comments?
#6 Mortepierre Feb 21, 2006 4:12:00	One would think since GH is ripe with intrique and politics you wouldd see prestige classes, feats & skills better support intrique in the world of greyhawk. Not necessarily. It depends a lot on what your players want to do with their gaming time. I suspect most would happily spend hours in a dusty old dungeon rather than argue politics with the king. Usually, players start getting an interest in politics only when their characters rise to the point where they: a) desire benefits only available through politics (title, land, followers, etc..) b) need something money & spells can't get them (i.e. the Oracle will talk to them, but only if the King speaks on their behalf) c) are of high-enough lvl that they feel they should have a say in how their country is run (probably after one visit too many by the tax collector) Which isn't to say you can't get them into a political game sooner than that but, unless they are all of the Machiavel's school of thought, they'll probably get bored real fast and go back to hunting dragons & looting dungeons. Birthright had some good in-game tools to involve players in politics, some of which can easily be adapted to other settings. Personally, I found the era just after the Greyhawk Wars to be rife with opportunities. My players began in Nyrond (585 CY) with the old Dungeon adventure The Ghost of Mistmoor (issue #35). By the end of it, they were hooked with a local minor nobleman whose fortunes had now improved because of them. He offered to be their "patron" in exchange for their loyalty. They all accepted and thus received impressive (but empty) titles within the barony (i.e. Chief Warden for the ranger, Court Wizard for the wizard, etc..). It made them feel important but, essentially, gave them a reason to stick around and actually care for the locals. They had a few adventures within the barony that enabled them to earn the natives' respect at the same time as it improved the barony's standing within the duchy. Next, the baron asked them to deliver his back-taxes to the king. Upon arriving at the capital, they each became pawns in the political game of various factions AND were around when a military coup occured. By clearly siding with the rebels, they helped replace the king by his eldest son (earning the latter's gratitude). This action also earned them powerful enemies both within and without the kingdom. From there, they became a kind of "king's men" special team, travelling throughout the kingdom to solve all kinds of problems, often returning to the barony to rest. I found it an effective way to involve my players in politics without boring them to death with paperwork, ceremonies, and endless talks (although the paladin now groans every time they drop by the palace and a horde of sycophants swarm around to curry favor with him). The best part is that I didn't have to "force" them into it. I only provided opportunities. Some they took, some they refused to touch. But at the end of the day, they can truly say that where they stand right now is where they decided to be on their own. I didn't need to develop new feats, skills, or PrC to do this. The system, as it exists, works fine. Diplomacy, Forgery, Knowledge (nobility), Deceitful, Negotiator, etc.. all have a part to play in politics. It's just that few players invest in them normally. But the possibility is there. That said, the Noble class and the Master Ambassador PrC from the Dragonlance setting are very well suited to political games.
#7 zombiegleemax Feb 22, 2006 0:47:40	Mortepierre, Sounds like you run a good game. It depends a lot on what your players want to do with their gaming time. I suspect most would happily spend hours in a dusty old dungeon rather than argue politics with the king. That is very true. I have found that most players exspect a certain amount of blood shed. I try to involve intrique and politics when the story calls for such. I am careful not to get carrried away with endless talk and I push the story along when needed. With a bit of cleverness I can pull this off without the players realizing I am doing so and as such keep the story well paced. Ah... a dms work is never done. My current headache is incorporating the d20 system into my brain! Something not easily done after playing more than 20+ years with maverick rules and my own a since of how things should be. My current group not new to the d20 rules expects to use material from all the source books.... except when we play in the midnight campaign. Midnight has it own strictures on game material and not all d20 things are included! Since it's published d20 material they seem to accept this. I have found my players are facinated and even drool over the new stuff they discover in the pages of a newly purchased book. I wish I had such material from GH for them. A few of my players are very pro Eborran. I know little of this world they hold in high regards. Something I hope to stir in them with GH. However its going to be hard to overcome that new world smell. How do I present d20 GH material in a timely fashion that allow the players to live and breath GH. Half of my group is d20 only and wouldn't much consider material out the scope of the d20 system. Besides compared to the newer written material with the lovely artwork I doubt they'd flip more than a couple pages of the old stuff. I feel like I am running to catch up with players who have been exposed to out of the box tailor made campaigns such as eborran and midnight. I am not able to provide that kind of material for my players casual consumption and as such think I will have some control issues with core products. My gut feeling tells me most my problems will melt away with trust. We know each other but just have a difference on how a game should be run, and a matter of taste on what gaming world we prefer.
#8 Mortepierre Feb 22, 2006 3:20:22	But that's the beauty of GH! In 3.XE, GH is all fluff. The crunch is made of whatever gaming accessory WotC publishes (except those for other settings). The catch is that the DM [namely, you] gets to decide what is appropriate and what's not. Of course, I can understand that - to an "old school" DM - the amount of new material can be overwhelming. Try to make them understand that. Begin by using stuff from the core books (PHB, DMG, MM) and then slowly adding other sourcebooks as you get a chance to read them (probably the "Complete .." series first, then "Races of ..", etc..). There will come a time, though, when you'll have to say "no!". It's all well and good for players to drool over two dozens accessories; it's quite another for them to expect their DM to instantly incorporate such into his campaign. If they grumble at the news, remind them that while all they have to do is show up to play, all the hard work is done by you. That should entitle you to some leeway.