Either works really but Monstrous Humanoid could also be an option. Another one could be Avangion is a new subtype. Native outsider fits well mechanically but the Avangion isn't really a planar being unless you believe its infused with elemental power or something.
Well the Avangion does seem to be infused with positive energy.
Either works really but Monstrous Humanoid could also be an option. Another one could be Avangion is a new subtype. Native outsider fits well mechanically but the Avangion isn't really a planar being unless you believe its infused with elemental power or something.
I personally don't see how monsterous humanoid works. I mean, there's things that are more humanoid than what an Avangion is, which are not called monsterous humanoids.
- Outsider (native)
- Pros:
- Avangions seem to be otherworldly in nature.
- Avangions could be seen as being "infused" with positive energy.
- Avangions seem to be otherworldly in nature.
- Cons:
- While there are a few native outsiders on Athas, generally speaking, Athas is devoid of outsiders.
- Further, my understanding of a native outsider is some otherworldly creature that migrated to the world in question, and had remained there, generation upon generation born and raised (and frequently interbred with the natives) on that world made the outsider become native to the world in question (like Planetouched). This doesn't seem right for Avangions.
- While there are a few native outsiders on Athas, generally speaking, Athas is devoid of outsiders.
- Pros:
- Fey
- Pros:
- Of any creature on Athas, Avangions could be viewed as the most like a fey (people who supported this claim have done a better job outlining how before).
- This would make the Avangion a bit more unique to the environment -- the last known fey on Athas were the Pixies, who were all butchered.
- Of any creature on Athas, Avangions could be viewed as the most like a fey (people who supported this claim have done a better job outlining how before).
- Cons:
- There are no (surviving) fey on Athas.
- There are a number of qualities of the fey that don't quite match up with the Avangion.
- There are no (surviving) fey on Athas.
- Pros:
- Monsterous Humanoid
- Pros:
- Well.... they were humanoid to begin with... usually (with current rulings, there's also the possibility of a Half-Giant, Thri-Kreen or Aarakocra Avangion, and umm... they aren't of type "humanoid").
- Cons:
- They become giant-wingged gossamer butterflies, with neither arms or legs any more to speak of. This to me, is hardly what I would classify as "humanoid", monsterous or otherwise.
- Pros:
- Fey
- Pros:
- This would make the Avangion a bit more unique to the environment -- the last known fey on Athas were the Pixies, who were all butchered.
- Cons:
- There are no (surviving) fey on Athas.
Huh?
Both SotL and Pyreen are Fey, so not sure what is meant by most of this.
Making Avagion fey would just mean they are the third group to be so, which still makes them pretty rare, especially since all that are fey on Athas are beings that you are not suppose to run into very often.
Besides, fey makes the most sense,
In order for them to be Native Outsiders you would have to change the fluff quite a bit and I don't think we want to go down that road.
Sand Brides and Sand Mothers are fey also :D
Thanks, I thought the numbers I had seemed slim.
At least that's the formula I'm using for putting together an Avangion write up. I'm trying to make a character with that in mind so I'd like to have something written completely up. I'm going to make it and bring it to my DM and see what he thinks and probably post it up here when we get somewhere. The trick is the metamorphasis spells... that's the killer.
-X
If I may be so evil as to toss out another possibility, what about the Dragon type? Oronis developed the preserver metamorphosis spells from the defiler metamorphosis spells (IIRC), and avangions are winged and magical. The big stickler, though, is whether anything about the avangion can be described as reptilian.
I was going to toss out the same suggestion - true, they don't *look* like your classic dragon, but nothing in the dragon type gives bonuses specifically due to how a dragon looks - it's basically just saying "this is the most bad-ass creature out there, fear it" and provides racial abilities befitting of a creature of such power. I agree with Throkat for all of his stated reasons, as well as the fact that by making them the Dragon type it puts them on equal footing, racially speaking, with their nemesis' - the true Athasian Dragon(s).
Huh?
Both SotL and Pyreen are Fey, so not sure what is meant by most of this.
Making Avagion fey would just mean they are the third group to be so, which still makes them pretty rare, especially since all that are fey on Athas are beings that you are not suppose to run into very often.
Besides, fey makes the most sense,
In order for them to be Native Outsiders you would have to change the fluff quite a bit and I don't think we want to go down that road.
Erm.... nevermind.... I keep forgetting about those ones.
Dragons get immunities, great saves, darkvision and low-light...Feys lose out on every account. I guess that's not a problem per-se since you can always give the Avangion additional immunities/abilities/etc. but it's just nice to see it as a part of the racial type.The biggest prob I have with the idea of Avangions as Fey is that the fey type is, well...bland.
You're gonna be left with a significantly smaller set of choices, if that's your requirement for creature type. Avangions are going to get a rather extensive set of those things, because of them being Avangions, why would you want the type they are to have duplicated (and thus redundant) features?
You're gonna be left with a significantly smaller set of choices, if that's your requirement for creature type. Avangions are going to get a rather extensive set of those things, because of them being Avangions, why would you want the type they are to have duplicated (and thus redundant) features?
Actually, I was thinking about it from the other way around - by giving them abilities as part of their creature type, it reduces the number of things you have to give them as part of their PrC/Advanced Being progression.
In the end you're right though - they're going to be given a bunch of abilities anyway, regardless of type.
As Throkat said awhile back, the preserver metam. spell was developed from the defiler version (IIRC, too), so linking Dragons to Avangions by their type would make sense in that regard.
Another possible reason to link them via type would be that weapons and spells designed to affect dragons would also affect Avangions (dragonbane, etc.), which, if Avangion are considered to have some sort of direct relation to Dragons, would make sense.
In the end I'm really just playing Devil's Advocate here - Fey is the best choice IMO as far as attributing an Avangions appearance and powers to a creature type is concerned, but due to the above-mentioned reasons I think it's worth considering the dragon type in order to keep that connection. Just trying to stir up the debate a little, keep y'all thinking. :P
Just a thought...
If the official stuff goes with avangions having the dragon type, then a special ability would be needed, an ability that would be the reverse of those abilities like Orc Blood which allow the creature to be affected by stuff that only affects orcs, or allow the creature to use orc-only magic items.
That way dragon bane weapons cannot affect avangions despite their dragon type, etc...
My
As for other new creatures having the fey type, they would need to be IMHO pretty much fey-like, i.e. related to nature or the essence of the world somehow. Maybe some creatures in the Misty Border, smack where Rajaat created a rift into the very life force of the world, are fey because they are twisted by the Border energies that seep from the ground.
Nice idea, Penn
.I have the tendancy to put the Avagion under a catagory not normally seen on Athas... the Celestial. Keep in mind, that this doen't nessarily mean that they must be of good alignment. Sort of an "Arcane Angel" if you will.
If the official stuff goes with avangions having the dragon type, then a special ability would be needed, an ability that would be the reverse of those abilities like Orc Blood which allow the creature to be affected by stuff that only affects orcs, or allow the creature to use orc-only magic items.
My idea of making them dragon-type is, at least in part, for the purpose of having them be affected abilities and items designed to harm dragons. If that connection isn't to be made (because you feel that they are truly the antithesis of a dragon and have nothing in common, as opposed to being "similar but different" due to the arcane magic and metamorphosis connection), then there'd be no point at all in giving them the dragon type, and something like fey (given the general consensus on that) would be better. The only reason I'm still bringing up "what about the dragon type?" is that I haven't read much (if anything) on this thread that really states why (other than the fact that avangions aren't reptilian) they wouldn't be the same type as an Athasian dragon - do the preserver metamorphosis spells, stemming directly from the defiler versions, create some sort of innate connection between dragons and avangions? Is the difference between defiling magic and preserving magic more than just a matter of "how you do it" and so has some sort of outstanding metaphysical ramifications that would cause a preserver's metamorphosis to differ so greatly from that of a defiler that they truly become a creature unconnected to the latter? etc.
IMO part of the reason this debate continues to go on (especially given the prev. post about making Avangions celestials) is that I don't think there's any general consensus on "what is an Avangion?" - we seem to be arguing more about "what does an Avangion look like" instead. I think if we could narrow down exactly what differentiates (or relates) avangions to dragons, the choice as to what creature type to make them would come naturally. I'm not saying that people aren't discussing the first question, but it seems to me that too many posters are focusing on the second question more than they should be when the crux of the matter (IMHO, of course) should be determining what qualities an Avangion has in its relation to dragons, "humanoid-kind", Athas, arcane magic, the Will, and the various non-material planes...and then choose the creature type based on what consensus we come to regarding the answers to those questions.
My idea of making them dragon-type is, at least in part, for the purpose of having them be affected abilities and items designed to harm dragons. If that connection isn't to be made (because you feel that they are truly the antithesis of a dragon and have nothing in common, as opposed to being "similar but different" due to the arcane magic and metamorphosis connection), then there'd be no point at all in giving them the dragon type, and something like fey (given the general consensus on that) would be better. The only reason I'm still bringing up "what about the dragon type?" is that I haven't read much (if anything) on this thread that really states why (other than the fact that avangions aren't reptilian) they wouldn't be the same type as an Athasian dragon - do the preserver metamorphosis spells, stemming directly from the defiler versions, create some sort of innate connection between dragons and avangions? Is the difference between defiling magic and preserving magic more than just a matter of "how you do it" and so has some sort of outstanding metaphysical ramifications that would cause a preserver's metamorphosis to differ so greatly from that of a defiler that they truly become a creature unconnected to the latter? etc.
IMO part of the reason this debate continues to go on (especially given the prev. post about making Avangions celestials) is that I don't think there's any general consensus on "what is an Avangion?" - we seem to be arguing more about "what does an Avangion look like" instead. I think if we could narrow down exactly what differentiates (or relates) avangions to dragons, the choice as to what creature type to make them would come naturally. I'm not saying that people aren't discussing the first question, but it seems to me that too many posters are focusing on the second question more than they should be when the crux of the matter (IMHO, of course) should be determining what qualities an Avangion has in its relation to dragons, "humanoid-kind", Athas, arcane magic, the Will, and the various non-material planes...and then choose the creature type based on what consensus we come to regarding the answers to those questions.
There is no basis for making Avangions be affected by items/abilities made to harm Dragons. Especially as Avangions seem to really be stocked up on defensive abilities (and in 2E, were more or less invulnerable to a great many things). I don't see the merit, nor the precidence for making them have the same weaknesses. Sure, the spell process/development may be similar in some respects, but the two are radically different (and in many ways opposites) from each other.
About what differentiates dragons and avangions? besides the massive physical/biological differences which are a significant thing, there's the fact that Avangions glow/radiate a great many magical (and/or psionic) effects, they always fly (levitate), they are their own internal arcane power supply, they have a number of automatic and continuous magical & psionic defenses. Dragons are brutal, life-stealing monsters who can fight with tooth & claw, breath weapon, and other extreme forms of attacks (the Avangion does not seem to be all that focused on "attack"). The Avangion loses his or her physical abilities, and they are replaced by substantial magical & psionic capabilities, while the Dragon seems to straddle the physical with the magical & psionic aspects somewhat "evenly" (comparitively). Dragons and Avangions, in many ways are extremely different, in many ways they are diametrically opposed to each other. Their similarities are primarily and focused almost exclusively on the process of metamorphosis -- ie, the procedure of casting Epic spells in sequence, the development of the Prestige Class, etc.
2E avangions were immune to all physical attacks (unless it was by a +5 or higher bonus if memory serves), and I want to say anything less than level 6 spells (there was also some immunity to powers I thought). They were fragile beings but notoriously difficult to kill (which would be necessary if one was to be fighting Dragons -- and be able to do so well).
*cheer* That's the stuff this thread needed - definitely cuts out Dragon as a type, also makes monstrous humanoid seem incorrect. To me, that sounds like Aberration could be a possibility (bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, alien mindset or any combination of the three) and Native Outsider also seems somewhat reasonable (given the idea of soul + body being one, which could explain why they are so magically active and 'self-contained'). Given your description, I actually think Fey is probably not the best choice - although they are listed as "a creature with supernatural abilities and connections to nature or to some other force or place," they are also "usually human-shaped." And even the first part ("...connections to...some other force"), although that's the kicker, works just as well with the "soul + body = 1" nature of an Outsider; if you draw magical energy from life force, and your life force is synonymous with your physical form, that could definitely account for an Avangion's mastery of magic.
Understand that when it's all said and done, the Avangion looks like nothing if not a giant gossamer-winged glowing butterfly (more or less). The arms and legs atrophy to nothing, while semi-translucent wings have sprouted and constitute the vast majority of the Avangion's physical form. I've always envisioned it would be like if you took some sort of light, and put it inside of an almost crystal-clear organic thing that when it shifts around, the light refracts through the wings in a myriad of colors and patterns.
*cheer* That's the stuff this thread needed - definitely cuts out Dragon as a type, also makes monstrous humanoid seem incorrect.
We assumed that the people participating in the thread knew what an avangion was. If you don't know what an avangion is, then your opinions about it are relatively meaningless.
To me, that sounds like Aberration could be a possibility (bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, alien mindset or any combination of the three) and Native Outsider also seems somewhat reasonable (given the idea of soul + body being one, which could explain why they are so magically active and 'self-contained').
Abberation!
, You've got to be kidding! At it's very basic definition sure. But, because of the predence of Abberations as evil twisted unnatural creatures that live underground, I would have to say no. Native Outsider remains a possibility.Given your description, I actually think Fey is probably not the best choice - although they are listed as "a creature with supernatural abilities and connections to nature or to some other force or place," they are also "usually human-shaped." And even the first part ("...connections to...some other force"), although that's the kicker, works just as well with the "soul + body = 1" nature of an Outsider; if you draw magical energy from life force, and your life force is synonymous with your physical form, that could definitely account for an Avangion's mastery of magic.
Funny, I've always thought that both gossamar things and butterflies were very fey. Also, it isn't until the later stages of the transformation that the human form is lost. It progresses much more slowly than the Dragon Metamorphosis, until BANG! within 3-4 stages its all done and you've got a huge glowing butterfly of Doomy Lifeiness (did I spell Lifeiness right...?)
Funny, I've always thought that both gossamar things and butterflies were very fey. Also, it isn't until the later stages of the transformation that the human form is lost. It progresses much more slowly than the Dragon Metamorphosis, until BANG! within 3-4 stages its all done and you've got a huge glowing butterfly of Doomy Lifeiness (did I spell Lifeiness right...?)
I tend to connect the Type with what the end result of the creature is, rather than the intermediate stages of the metamorphosis. I mean, Dragons become dragons, are some wierd amalgam of dragon & until the end. So, I would say that Avangions would have the type of the final creature, which is the big glowy butterfly thing. That said, I definitely am leaning towards Fey myself, as I think it does fit better. Native Outsider could still have some good arguments for it, but right now, I'm thinking Fey myself.
- Cons:
- While there are a few native outsiders on Athas, generally speaking, Athas is devoid of outsiders.
I find I must point out that, according to my copy of ToA, Shadow Giants are outsiders, as are Psi-Shadows and Half-Elementals. Sand brides and Sand Mothers are outsiders as well (not fey as suggested by the Sage). Coincidentally, none of 'em are labeled as native outsiders (although perhaps a few should be).
- Further, my understanding of a native outsider is some otherworldly creature that migrated to the world in question, and had remained there, generation upon generation born and raised (and frequently interbred with the natives) on that world made the outsider become native to the world in question (like Planetouched). This doesn't seem right for Avangions.
Checking the entry for the Outsider Type, I found the following:
"Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence."
So, I'd say that not ALL outsiders necessarily fit you mold. Not to mention that bit about attaining a "higher state of spiritual existence" - if that doesn't hit the nail on the head.
Don't get me wrong though. Cuz' I myself don't see this as that simple either. Using "fey" as the type works equally well (if not more) for me as well - and to quote: "Fey are usually human-shaped."
And on that...
- There are a number of qualities of the fey that don't quite match up with the Avangion.
Curious to know, Xlor, what abilities don't match up, as there are not that many, and no major ones?
1. They're Fey.
2. Theres 10 stages of transformation.
3. Each stage progresses both psionics and magical ability equal to 20+ stage 1-10.
4. They're "monsters". PCs being one isn't really an option unless I add an LA to one.
Similar ideas for the Dragon 3.5. Stage 1-10 effectively replaces hatchling-wyrm progression in a normal game. All such advanced beings are epic critters. Avangions will be tweaked to add a more 3.5 feel to them- charisma bonuses to saving throws, maybe a deflection bonus to AC as well and better DR than a Dragon. At best a Dragon will get DR X/metal and magic. An Avangion will probably get magic and cold iron to start with and end up with epic and cold iron DR.
Sand brides and Sand Mothers are outsiders as well (not fey as suggested by the Sage).
Yeah, I think that was one of the changes we made during one of the last edits. We had a pretty good discussion about it, though I still think they fit better as fey.
We assumed that the people participating in the thread knew what an avangion was. If you don't know what an avangion is, then your opinions about it are relatively meaningless.
I know/knew what one was...so you apparently missed my point entirely. To summarize, you can't debate something if the subject matter hasn't really been defined, which apparently it hadn't since myself and at least one other person thought that the commonality of the metamorphosis spells was more meaningful than others did, etc. So I asked for a spelled-out definition of "Avangion" so we all had a common basis to go off of, Xlorep provided a great one, and hence I retracted my previous arguments for them being a Dragon-type based on his statements.
Abberation!
. . . Yes, at it's very definition, which is why I said it "could be a possibility." Since the only 2 non-evil aberrations I can think of right now are rust monsters and guardian nagas I agree with "no"...but that doesn't mean it's not worth tossing out there, however.
Funny, I've always thought that both gossamar things and butterflies were very fey. Also, it isn't until the later stages of the transformation that the human form is lost. It progresses much more slowly than the Dragon Metamorphosis, until BANG! within 3-4 stages its all done and you've got a huge glowing butterfly of Doomy Lifeiness (did I spell Lifeiness right...?)
I tend to connect the Type with what the end result of the creature is, rather than the intermediate stages of the metamorphosis. I mean, Dragons become dragons, are some wierd amalgam of dragon & until the end. So, I would say that Avangions would have the type of the final creature, which is the big glowy butterfly thing. That said, I definitely am leaning towards Fey myself, as I think it does fit better. Native Outsider could still have some good arguments for it, but right now, I'm thinking Fey myself.
I agree with Xlorep here, at least as far as the "end result" part goes, and since you (Ruhl) pointed out the "precedence of Aberrations" earlier, take note: out of the Fey from MMv3.5 and MM2 (the two I have laying near me right now), all except for 2 are completely humanoid in shape, only about half have wings (although yes, they are predominantly butterfly wings), and of the two that aren't humanoid one is the grig (which still has an upper humanoid torso) and the Spirit of the Land...and the SotL is an incorporeal "force of nature." Hence, the "humanoid form" appears to be an extremely important aspect of Fey, a quality that a final-stage Avangion doesn't at all possess.
As for Native Outsiders, the MM lists 6, of those 5 are humanoid (or almost completely human) while the last is the Couatl - a creature that is "legendary for its sheer beauty, vast magical powers, and unwavering virtue" with "intelligence and goodness" that have made it a revered creature. Given that it's also the only creature from those two books that has a physical body that is not humanoid, I think precedence would put the Avangion in the Native Outsider category rather than Fey.
I know/knew what one was...so you apparently missed my point entirely. To summarize, you can't debate something if the subject matter hasn't really been defined, which apparently it hadn't since myself and at least one other person thought that the commonality of the metamorphosis spells was more meaningful than others did, etc. So I asked for a spelled-out definition of "Avangion" so we all had a common basis to go off of, Xlorep provided a great one, and hence I retracted my previous arguments for them being a Dragon-type based on his statements.
Well, having a vague impression and knowing are two very different things, but I suppose that isn't important at this point. I do agree on the importance of defining a subject of debate, for most of those involved, it was defined by all the information presented on Avangions in the 'Dragon Kings' and 'Preservers and Defilers' books, as well as the adventures that involved avangions. Still it is perfectly reasonable to ask for a definition and it would have been more inclusive of us to put that definition out there in the 1st place so that even those who did not know about the specifics of avangions could understand the conversation more fully.
. . . Yes, at it's very definition, which is why I said it "could be a possibility." Since the only 2 non-evil aberrations I can think of right now are rust monsters and guardian nagas I agree with "no"...but that doesn't mean it's not worth tossing out there, however.
Sure. I'm actually quite suprised that the definition of Abberation doesn't mention anything about them being subterranian
. I can't think of a single type of abberation that isn't.I agree with Xlorep here, at least as far as the "end result" part goes, and since you (Ruhl) pointed out the "precedence of Aberrations" earlier, take note: out of the Fey from MMv3.5 and MM2 (the two I have laying near me right now), all except for 2 are completely humanoid in shape, only about half have wings (although yes, they are predominantly butterfly wings), and of the two that aren't humanoid one is the grig (which still has an upper humanoid torso) and the Spirit of the Land...and the SotL is an incorporeal "force of nature." Hence, the "humanoid form" appears to be an extremely important aspect of Fey, a quality that a final-stage Avangion doesn't at all possess.
True, though I don't see that as killing the possibility.
As for Native Outsiders, the MM lists 6, of those 5 are humanoid (or almost completely human) while the last is the Couatl - a creature that is "legendary for its sheer beauty, vast magical powers, and unwavering virtue" with "intelligence and goodness" that have made it a revered creature. Given that it's also the only creature from those two books that has a physical body that is not humanoid, I think precedence would put the Avangion in the Native Outsider category rather than Fey.
Yah, there is far more precedance for characters turning into Native (Outsiders) in general, like Monks for instance. And it does fit well. Since the connection of Avangion to the planet is more tenous than that of SotL, I have to agree that Native (Outsider) is probably the best choice.
I would think they are a Native Outsider with a Avangion template, or a new unique type. The native outsider seems likely though to me as Clerics of the Elements would become that upon elemental transformation.
In the end it's each to his own...
I would think they are a Native Outsider with a Avangion template, or a new unique type. The native outsider seems likely though to me as Clerics of the Elements would become that upon elemental transformation.
In the end it's each to his own...
Really, I would think that the clerics would become Elementals!
Sure. I'm actually quite suprised that the definition of Abberation doesn't mention anything about them being subterranian
*snip*
...(re: Fey w/ humanoid characteristics) True, though I don't see that as killing the possibility.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if things like this were left out simply because of your previous "setting the precedence" comment - since all of the abberations listed in the MM, etc. are subterranean (I hadn't even thought of that, but I can't think of any, either) the writers/editors probably left it out so that it'd be implied but not stated (in case they made an aereal abberation or something at a later time, etc.). And as for the fey, the comment about "most are humanoid" was probably done for the same reason - so that, like you said, it doesn't kill the possibility, just another reason that makes the creature type unlikely.
Yah, there is far more precedance for characters turning into Native (Outsiders) in general, like Monks for instance. And it does fit well. Since the connection of Avangion to the planet is more tenous than that of SotL, I have to agree that Native (Outsider) is probably the best choice.
I'd forgotten about the monk when I posted that...but yea, that's another good justification for Native Outsider as Netherek pointed out. Plus, based strictly off of the information given for that creature type (Hit Die type, saves, etc.), N.O.'s are a lot closer to the Dragon type in power level than Fey (...the BAB as fighter would be a little strange, although I guess even an Avangion needs to be able to hit high touch ACs with ray spells, eh? ;) )
As to the elementals, you are correct, they are not outsiders. They are extraplanar when in the Material. Though look at Genasi, they are elemental in nature (though only mildly) they get Outsider/Native. This is most likely due to a heritage of outsiders Native to the elemental planes, but does set a precedence. Elementals cannot be resurrected, a harsh fate to any advanced character. Native subtype is the best way to address this issue, the advanced priest should still hold ties to the Material. Unfortunately, Native is officially only applicable to Outsider. Looking at the situation at hand, they should get Elemental/Native as a special case due to the transformation process.
Another option would be augmented subtype, though it has no specific rules it applies to those that have their type altered or paired with another subtype. I think this is what should be applied to the monk along with native outsider as they do not get darkvision.
Elementals cannot be resurrected, a harsh fate to any advanced character. Native subtype is the best way to address this issue, the advanced priest should still hold ties to the Material. Unfortunately, Native is officially only applicable to Outsider. Looking at the situation at hand, they should get Elemental/Native as a special case due to the transformation process.
Not being able to be resurrected is not a big deal for me since I don't allow such things in my DS. However on an official level one could still make them of the Elemental type and then simply give them an ability that allows them to be resurrected.
As for Avangion, I'm starting to lean more towards the Native Outsider type as well.
In my game.... I have chosen to completely rework Avangions. Yes, I know what they are, according to the "official" rules, but as a GM I can do what I like, making any changes that seem to make more sense to ME. That said, I think it makes more sense to replace Avangions with a "good" dragon, much like a gold dragon would offset a red dragon in a standard world. Its really not the form of the beast that so much matters as the motivations behind its behavior. "Avangions" are supposed to be focused on the restoration of Athas. I am personally more confortable with them looking like, and having more of the powers of, a dragon rather than the strange, butterfly-like creature the creators of DS came up with.
IMHO canon is a starting point to stimulate the imagination, not a rigid box that a GM should occupy. If you look at gaming from that POV, then you can "take the best & forget the rest". That may be hard for some to accept, but its my opinion, for what its worth. :D
Not wanting to invite a flame but...
In my game.... I have chosen to completely rework Avangions. Yes, I know what they are, according to the "official" rules, but as a GM I can do what I like, making any changes that seem to make more sense to ME. That said, I think it makes more sense to replace Avangions with a "good" dragon, much like a gold dragon would offset a red dragon in a standard world. Its really not the form of the beast that so much matters as the motivations behind its behavior. "Avangions" are supposed to be focused on the restoration of Athas. I am personally more confortable with them looking like, and having more of the powers of, a dragon rather than the strange, butterfly-like creature the creators of DS came up with.
IMHO canon is a starting point to stimulate the imagination, not a rigid box that a GM should occupy. If you look at gaming from that POV, then you can "take the best & forget the rest". That may be hard for some to accept, but its my opinion, for what its worth. :D
I don't think your going to have anyone flame you for an opinion like that in the DS forums
. I think just about everyone, if not everyone, who regularly posts here would agree with you on the last part of your post. I believe there are even a few other people lurking about who have made comments about draconic avangion in the past....Personally I like the giant butterfly thing, but I'd never knock other people for wanting to do something else for there game.
However, this discussion is about the official avangion type, hence the focused discussion on the avangion as it is actually presented in official sources. ;)
Of course I think we've just about come to consensus that it should be a Native Outsider. So a change in focus wouldn't really be too disruptive at this point.
I guess I should have put that in my first post somewhere...
Whoops! :embarrass
It should look as follows: Type Augment Outsider(native) at least from how I understand the types.
The Dragon should have Type Dragon Augment.
JMO.
The Bab, HD, Saves, etc. of a Native outsider only apply to the monster levels. As an Avangion is made up of class levels, that stuff doesn't apply. Much like Plane-touched races.
It should look as follows: Type Augment Outsider(native) at least from how I understand the types.
The Dragon should have Type Dragon Augment.
JMO.
Sorry I should have explained I'm going to stat Avangions/Dragons up as monsters. A stage 1 Avangion for example would have 23 hit dice and magic/psionics as a 21st level psion/preserver. PCs can't really become them unless they want a nice LA to go with it. I think the rules changed to much between the editions to make a balanced/playable advanced being- ergo NPCs only really. Since we don't play epic level yet it won't matter for a while.
The Bab, HD, Saves, etc. of a Native outsider only apply to the monster levels. As an Avangion is made up of class levels, that stuff doesn't apply. Much like Plane-touched races.
It should look as follows: Type Augment Outsider(native) at least from how I understand the types.
The Dragon should have Type Dragon Augment.
JMO.
More like "Outsider (native, augmented )", so an Avangion that started as an Elf would be: "Outsider (native, augmented humanoid)". A dragon would be "Dragon (augmented humanoid)" if the original creature was humanoid type. Of course, for Avangions, there also is the possibility of "Fey (augmented humanoid)" if the original creature was type humanoid.
More like "Outsider (native, augmented )", so an Avangion that started as an Elf would be: "Outsider (native, augmented humanoid)". A dragon would be "Dragon (augmented humanoid)" if the original creature was humanoid type. Of course, for Avangions, there also is the possibility of "Fey (augmented humanoid)" if the original creature was type humanoid.
wile i still figure avangions as fey, from a purely mechanical point of wiew outsider functions better since the otusider type "overvrites" any other original tipe (save from undead or construct i think, but i'm not so sure) and fey don't, in particular, overvrite the dragon type.
since we know that, at least, does exist one Dragon that changed to Avangion:
Oronis will be: Outsider (native, augmented )
Lets look at it this way- he was like what, a stage 2, maybe a 3 but that would have to be the limit, dragon when he made the switch. S at this time his type is dragon (augmented humaniod) right. The draconic features at this point would be very minimal.
The with the addition of the avangion, his type becomes- and I know this is a strech, Avangion (there is nothing saying that athas.org cannot design new types right) - so his full type would be Avangion (dragon, augmented humaniod)- now let that sink in and say to yourself- "Wow, that is right!"
I do not think there is anything wrong with having multiple subtypes on a creature- it is there primary type that dictates skill points, hp, saves, ect...on a creature with the subtypes basically kicking in minor details/abilities/flaws.
By using Epic spells alone you then can apply the monster template with the character needing then to earn each HD/level and level adjustment. Either way works, though blending the two wouldn't be good.
This reminds me: isn't it mentionned somewhere that it took Keltis a thousand years (time also spent developing the avangion process) to unmake himself a dragon? When he was finished its like he never took any levels in the dragon PrC or ever cast those epic spells...
Xlorep, what happens to Oronis and his type? Seker said that where ever the new avangion metamorphosis spells overlap with the dragon ones that the dragon abilities are overwritten with the avangion ones....but what about the type? Isn't that something that changes from the very first spell cast? I.e. Oronis, from the very first spell he cast, lost his dragon type.
Actually, I believe this question is answered in the little bit of information we have on Oronis in the 2E books (namely, I want to say Defilers & Preservers). He didn't imediately jump from dragon to avangion -- he spent centuries purging the dragon metamorphosis from himself -- to become a preserver. As a result, he would have lost his dragon type from that "purifying" process he put himself through, gone back to his humanoid (human) type, which would be where he was at when he cast the first preserver metamorphosis spell. He gave up and removed the entire effects from his dragon metamorphosis before he even began to develop the preserver metamorphosis spells.
So while someone might want to see it as he went from human -> dragon -> avangion, in actuality, he went from human -> dragon -> human -> avangion. Mind you, he still kept all of the things from being a Champion of Rajaat, as well as the little ability to grant divine spells.
Some of those confer a Tainted Aura. I'm having difficulty seeing how simply deciding to stop using those class abilities could conceivably remove some of the intrinsed effects of those classes, like the Tainted Aura. Wouldn't that aura be a show stopper for avangionhood? Can a character "remove" class abilties or whole class levels from his character makeup?
Remember- a majority of the specal abilities have been shifted over to the PrC- so any dragon with it could become an ex-athasian dragon just like any other class- loosing the special abilities gained from there though.
So kind of what Pennarin has said but with more words :D
Xlorep, what about his levels in Athasian Dragon or in Arch Defiler (or similar defiler-centric PrCs) ?
Some of those confer a Tainted Aura. I'm having difficulty seeing how simply deciding to stop using those class abilities could conceivably remove some of the intrinsed effects of those classes, like the Tainted Aura. Wouldn't that aura be a show stopper for avangionhood? Can a character "remove" class abilties or whole class levels from his character makeup?
I never said he "simply decided to stop using those class abilities", so don't put words in my mouth. Defilers & Preservers (pretty certain it was there) has the most complete explanation of the process he had undergone. It took centuries of purging the taint of being a defiler from him. He had to revert back to a preserver, and I believe he actually had help from a pyreen to do this or something like that. I'm not talking about simply stopping using those class abilities, I'm talking about him developing the process to literally remove them from him. Including things from defiler-centric PrC's. Oronis' path was not easy. He would have had to eliminate the defiler's Tainted Aura in order to even BEGIN as an Avangion -- of course, he didn't know about Avangionhood when he started the process (in fact, things tend to point to him developing/inventing the Avangion metamorphosis by studying and modifying the Dragon ones, along with help from I want to say at least one other Preserver, and a Druid possibly Pyreen). For the class levels -- I'd say he willingly actually took on negative levels leading to permanent level drain to remove those levels from him. He willingly went backwards on the path in order to then go forward towards Avangionhood.
I disagree with the idea that he removed all draconic features from himself- IMO the process he would have had to go through would be like the redemption stuff as presented in the BoED- he would loose the defiling special abilities that the Athasian Dragon PrC would have given him, but the physical changes would be set- you only need to be a defiler to cast the spell- there is nothing saying that one could not go through an atonement afterward and become a preserver again- where they would once again be under the preserver rules for defiling- preservers CAN defile, but doing so leads down the Road of Corruption again.
Remember- a majority of the specal abilities have been shifted over to the PrC- so any dragon with it could become an ex-athasian dragon just like any other class- loosing the special abilities gained from there though.
So kind of what Pennarin has said but with more words :D
We're not just talking about a dragon who decided to become a preserver here (as ludicrist as that notion is in normal, non-Oronis context), we're talking about an Avangion who previously was the epitome of defiling. To start down the Avangion path, I would reckon that the individual would need to remove all of the defiler "taint" he or she has -- to even begin the process, he'd have to have erased the entire dragon changes from him.
We're not just talking about a dragon who decided to become a preserver here (as ludicrist as that notion is in normal, non-Oronis context), we're talking about an Avangion who previously was the epitome of defiling. To start down the Avangion path, I would reckon that the individual would need to remove all of the defiler "taint" he or she has -- to even begin the process, he'd have to have erased the entire dragon changes from him.
I think your statement to the effect that "an avangion is the opposite of a dragon" awhile back was a good one, and applies to this - if a dragon is the epitome of defiler-hood, then yes, you'd need to remove that "taint" from your being before progressing on the path of Avangion-hood. I too recall reading (in 2e material) how it took Oronis a long time to pefect the process...so the idea of "removing" dragon levels makes sense to me.
From a purely game-system standpoint, characters always have the option of chosing to fail a saving throw, so it's not like this would be all that difficult to do - you hit yourself with a spell that drains a couple levels, then you decide to fail the save and permanently lose those levels. Then the only real problem is deciding how "becoming less of a dragon" actually works, given that you'd have to reverse-metamorphosize to get rid of those levels.
But that's what a DM and "god calls" are for, eh?
I think your statement to the effect that "an avangion is the opposite of a dragon" awhile back was a good one, and applies to this - if a dragon is the epitome of defiler-hood, then yes, you'd need to remove that "taint" from your being before progressing on the path of Avangion-hood. I too recall reading (in 2e material) how it took Oronis a long time to pefect the process...so the idea of "removing" dragon levels makes sense to me.
From a purely game-system standpoint, characters always have the option of chosing to fail a saving throw, so it's not like this would be all that difficult to do - you hit yourself with a spell that drains a couple levels, then you decide to fail the save and permanently lose those levels. Then the only real problem is deciding how "becoming less of a dragon" actually works, given that you'd have to reverse-metamorphosize to get rid of those levels.
But that's what a DM and "god calls" are for, eh?
If the metamorphosis process was caused through spells, it can arguably be removed through spells. I'm not even remotely suggesting it was easy to do this. In fact, I'd even say that a dragon wishing to accomplish this would need to enlist the help of at least a druid, if not something more powerful (like a pyreen, or a spirit of the land) -- which arguably is an incredible, epic feat in and of itself. I would argue that it would take the energies of divine magic -- possibly a balance of the four elements like the druids wield, on top of psionic power maybe as well. I would say it would have to be a completely willing dragon -- so a druid can't just develop into a weapon to revert dragons to their original state at will. Heck, I'm liking the idea of at least a druid/psionic character (which pyreen are, and I want to say that Oronis had been helped by a pyreen).
I never said he "simply decided to stop using those class abilities", so don't put words in my mouth.
I haven't put words in your mouth man, those were not quotation marks but italics. I added the emphasis on my own because its what I understand of the whole redemption and ex-dragon paragraphs.
I haven't put words in your mouth man, those were not quotation marks but italics. I added the emphasis on my own because its what I understand of the whole redemption and ex-dragon paragraphs.
K.
If the metamorphosis process was caused through spells, it can arguably be removed through spells. I'm not even remotely suggesting it was easy to do this. In fact, I'd even say that a dragon wishing to accomplish this would need to enlist the help of at least a druid, if not something more powerful (like a pyreen, or a spirit of the land) -- which arguably is an incredible, epic feat in and of itself. I would argue that it would take the energies of divine magic -- possibly a balance of the four elements like the druids wield, on top of psionic power maybe as well. I would say it would have to be a completely willing dragon -- so a druid can't just develop into a weapon to revert dragons to their original state at will. Heck, I'm liking the idea of at least a druid/psionic character (which pyreen are, and I want to say that Oronis had been helped by a pyreen).
Well, there's the "ritual with X participants" modifier you can apply to Epic spells, so that sounds like a more than feasible solution. I was more just pointing out that it's definitely within the limits of the rules to do something like this without having to "stretch" them.
Though this doesn't exactly translate well in 3.5.
Also, it doesn't explicitly say so, but do avangions and dragons need spellbooks, like how an archlich and colored dragons get thier spells intuitively.) Gold Dragons on other worlds DO study spellbooks (which complements thier already intuitive spells) an avangion is incorporeal and couldn't even grasp one, well at least a 30th level one requires a + weapon to hit.
I would say they still may need them. And there is nothing about avangions being incorporeal. However, they do have telekinesis abilities at will, so it's not THAT hard for them to use a spellbook. I would say that if the dragon/avangion were wizards, then they need the book. If you allow for sorcerers in your Dark Sun, then avangions & dragons who were sorcerers wouldn't need a spellbook.
They go through growth stages as dragons do, in 10 stages.
And just the fact that they don't resemble dragons works for me, as it makes avangions truly unique and makes them stand out all the more.
To keep things a bit simpler, I'd just qualify avangions as a dragon class also.
They go through growth stages as dragons do, in 10 stages.
And just the fact that they don't resemble dragons works for me, as it makes avangions truly unique and makes them stand out all the more.
This was brought up earlier in the discussion, and rebutted. There is literally nothing whatsoever that is even remotely the same physcally or in power (magical, psionic, etc) between the avangion and dragon. It would be like saying that draconians and solars should be the same type, just because both of them have two arms, two legs, one head, and a pair of wings.
This was brought up earlier in the discussion, and rebutted. There is literally nothing whatsoever that is even remotely the same physcally or in power (magical, psionic, etc) between the avangion and dragon. It would be like saying that draconians and solars should be the same type, just because both of them have two arms, two legs, one head, and a pair of wings.
No, avangions and dragons don't even share those sorts of basic similarities! :D
An avangion is a huge wing with a head; and a dragon has four clawed limbs, two wings, a tail, and a head with a huge maw, plus a breath weapon.
No, avangions and dragons don't even share those sorts of basic similarities! :D
An avangion is a huge wing with a head; and a dragon has four clawed limbs, two wings, a tail, and a head with a huge maw, plus a breath weapon.
Heh yea, my analogy was to cover for the people who say "Well, both of them are done through 10 epic spells and a PrC, so they should be the same type of creature", or "avangions were based off of the dragon metamorphosis, so both should be the same type of creature" -- by using an example of two even more similar kinds of creatures than dragons & avangions, and showing that even with that much similarities, the creatures are two radically different types.
I would say they still may need them. And there is nothing about avangions being incorporeal.
Well, I kind of always thought so, usually creatures that require a magical weapon are either incorporeal, like wraiths, or made of a hard/invulnerable to non-magic weapons material, like a stone golem, or magical in nature, like a vampire. I think if you swung a normal sword at an avangion it would simply go through him like it's not there, is what I always imagined.
Well, I kind of always thought so, usually creatures that require a magical weapon are either incorporeal, like wraiths, or made of a hard/invulnerable to non-magic weapons material, like a stone golem, or magical in nature, like a vampire. I think if you swung a normal sword at an avangion it would simply go through him like it's not there, is what I always imagined.
Although it is never stated that that is the case, it would be convient for other reasons as well. Perhaps that can be added to the description of Avangions; if others are amenable.
I say nay. I'm a naysayer, apparently :P
Yes you are Penn :D . But, I can hardly blame you for it, what with you being french canadian and all :P
Well, I kind of always thought so, usually creatures that require a magical weapon are either incorporeal, like wraiths, or made of a hard/invulnerable to non-magic weapons material, like a stone golem, or magical in nature, like a vampire. I think if you swung a normal sword at an avangion it would simply go through him like it's not there, is what I always imagined.
And I've always imagined it hitting some invisible barrier of sorts, and not going through at all. I'm really not in favor of an etherial-like (incorporeal) Avangion.
And I've always imagined it hitting some invisible barrier of sorts, and not going through at all. I'm really not in favor of an etherial-like (incorporeal) Avangion.
There's nothing in the level-progression of an Avangion, as listed in Dragon Kings or D&P to indicate that they are the least bit insubstantial, either, so I concur. It glows, yes, but incorporeal that does not make for. (wee for Yoda-speak)
This subject also depends a lot on how we're defining "invulnerable to weapons" - if it's DR, then the description of Damage Reduction itself says that for some creatures (such as many outsiders) the wounds "simply heal closed" after the weapon passes through them, and given that 3e tends to take "immune to weapons of less than +X enchantment" to equate to DR #/magic, that sounds like the most likely route for an Avangion. Plus they probably should have some sort of deflection bonus built into their progression, which would account for Xlorep's idea of weapons "bouncing off" and ties in with the idea that their glow provides magical protection (be it in the form of spells, as listed in the 2e books, but you've also got to account for their AC modification somehow).
I've got the feeling I'm just rehashing crap that has already been stated several times now. Ah well.
I've got the feeling I'm just rehashing crap that has already been stated several times now. Ah well.
This conversation has sparked a keen sense of de'ja vu in me, however that's because the subject of incorporeal avangions was breached before, and shot down -- and that was, I believe in one of the more recent discussions about avangions. Nothing in the books even remotely suggest incorporeality -- if people want incorporeal avangions, great -- they can do that for their campaigns. I know that it won't be the case for what's coming from Athas.org.
BUT THERE IS AN OFFICIAL ANSWER: an avangion is an "aberration" type. it says it right there on the pdf download for the Avangion PrC -- look at the description for "Preserver Metamorphosis I" --and yes, thats from athas.org
whether you agree or not, it's as close to canon as your gonna get.