Here are my suggestions what cultures could be the sources for the different city states. I hope that someone knows more, can correct me or add something.
Balic:
Obviously ancient Greece. Architecture, names and what is told about the culture (e.g. the rhapsods) is a clear indicator of it. It seems to be mainly inspired by the city state of Athens. But there are some Roman elements in (e.g. election of a dictator).
Draj:
Aztec culture. Architecture, names and emphasis on war seems to suggest it.
Gulg:
Some African culture. But can't figure out more.
Nibenay:
Here I'm very unsure what culture it is. The sculptures remind me on south India (Hindu temples). On the other hand the clothes and the monasteries seem to be more Tibetian like.
Raam:
Again it reminds me on India (but maybe more the north of India).
Tyr:
The architecture seems to me to be clearly inspired by ancient Babylon. But that's all. I think Tyr was supposed to be as much familiar as possible to the average western reader. Unfortunatly (imho) this lead to a average fantasy city mixed with the DARK SUN essentials but without any unique flavour.
Urik:
Persian? Beards, hats and especially the words of Hamanu at the beginning of the entry in the Wanderers Journal (First DARK SUN Boxed Set) reminds me at ancient Persia at the time of King Dareios (but can't remember which Dareios of the many).
Any suggestions?
Greetings!
I wonder...has anyone though of using the various cultures of Tekumel for source inspiration for various city-states and their cultures? The same cultural backgrounds (Hindic, Aztec, etc.) are present therein from what I have seen (that is what I am told Professor Baker based his world's cultures on: rather, the mixed descendants of such).
Gulg, I would place as western and central african.
Raam is definately very India/Pakastan.
Kurn is given no real cultural flavor and what the city was once like isn't really even described.
Eldaraatch seems to favor a North African/Arabian style of dress, but beyond that is like russia during stalins reign or something.
The Halflings remind me of Indonesian and South American tribal peoples.
Tyr = Rome/Greece
Nibenay=Egypt
Urik=Babylon
Raam= India/Persia
Draj=Aztecs
Gulg=Zulu/Africa
Something like that.
True look and everything more Mesopotamian no doubt, just can't get the Sparta thing out of my head.
Urik is Babylonian.
I've never understood the Tyr/Rome connection, myself...
Unfortunately, I'm too far away from my books.
This is a recurring theme. Perhaps it should be added to the DS archive thread, with reference to the larger threads on this topic?
That guy doesn't do much of a job maintaining that archive if you ask me...lazy frog he is, and a bad mouth to boot. Sorry fellow from the first day I laid eyes on his posts.
Tyr = Rome/Greece
Concerning Tyr I totally agree with Korvar. I know Greek and Roman culture quite well. However, I can't see any connection to Tyr except of the senate, slavery and gladiators. But even the former differs much from the Roman senate or the Attic Gerousia and the latter two are nothing special of Tyr but the entire table lands.
The connection of Nibenay to Egypt I've never seen before, but thanks to your posting I agree to a certain extent. Dressing and the profound knowledge in astronomy seem to suggest such an connection.
Nevertheless I think that there are also strong Indian or Tibetian connections. The carvings at the wall doesn't look very much like the ones in Egypt but much more like the ones of southern India (Hindu). See for instance the following link:
http://www.ikologiks.org/images/Temple-India_Gulf_Bengal-1989.JPG
Also the names (Siemhook, Naagaramakam, Nibenay) sound more like Hindu names. And ancient Egypt surely didn't know monasteries.
The connection of Nibenay to Egypt I've never seen before, but thanks to your posting I agree to a certain extent. Dressing and the profound knowledge in astronomy seem to suggest such an connection.
Nevertheless I think that there are also strong Indian or Tibetian connections. The carvings at the wall doesn't look very much like the ones in Egypt but much more like the ones of southern India (Hindu). See for instance the following link:
http://www.ikologiks.org/images/Temple-India_Gulf_Bengal-1989.JPG
Also the names (Siemhook, Naagaramakam, Nibenay) sound more like Hindu names. And ancient Egypt surely didn't know monasteries.
Yah it's a mix, but I've never pictured the cravings like that, but more like egyptian well not heiroglyphics but the pictures that went along with them, the cravings are engraved into the stone rather than statuary like in the picture, and they are described as a sort of written language that describes the history and myths of the people.
The cities are only very loosly based around RL cultures. Agis of Asticles for example sounds like a Greco/Roman name to me.
It's not a Roman or Greek name pattern. And even concerning the sound it couldn't be Roman. Greek could be possible, but it wouldn't be a common Greek word. But nevertheless you made a good point. Names like Tithian or Matthias are clearly Greek (concerning the sound).
I always thought that the seven city states in the table lands were inspired by some ancient cultures of our world. Although they don't match 100% with a real civilization and there is much new in every state, I think that one can nevertheless figure out the cultures they are based on. This might especially help to get some more background information on the several city states by reading some books about the real cultures.
Hi, while I agree with your thoughts on the real historical influences that appear in the city states this is one of my main gripes about Dark Sun.
They go to all the trouble and imagination of creating a truly unique setting and then use blatant earth based historical references, names, architectural styles etc…
While you have to start somewhere when building up the idea of a culture I’d prefer to see it tweaked out of easy recognition so that it becomes hard to point to a city state any say that it’s Greek/Roman such as with Balic.
IMO Nibenay is one of the best as there are no easy stereotypes, the carvings remind you of India and Egypt, the city-blocks remind me of ancient Mohenjo Daro on the Indus, the music that pervades the city (from the PP series) is unique and it has solely female templars. It’s one of my favourite places to run.
A link to the city
http://www.mohenjodaro.net/
With Balic, I’d prefer something Minoan as a base and then weave Greek influences through the architecture, keep Minoan dress with a silty adaptation.
With the northern line of cities, Urik, Draj, Yaramuke and Raam, a blend between Hittite and Indian, then bring in influences from Persia, India, Thailand or Mayan. I like the Spartan idea for Urik! Rather than a linear path, the city states could have switched back and forth in styles throughout the thousands of years they have existed, with different types of buildings near each other.
Take the City Tour for Hittites :D
http://www.hattuscha.de/eng/eng.html
Much more fun than straight cross referencing from earth!!!
You were right about Balic (Greco-Roman), Draj (Aztec). Urik was modeled very closely to Babylonian culture. Gulg appears to be Zulu, but it may be Nubian. Tyr is pretty generic, like you said, and I'm not sure about Raam.
Nibenay is the most obscure, but I finally found it: it's definitely based on the now-extinct Khmer Empire. Take a look at some images of one of their great temples, Ankor Wat.
It's a city built on the ruins and basis of another place. The people have amazing liberties (for Athas) but are contemptuous, naive and quick to take all this for granted...
It's not a Roman or Greek name pattern. And even concerning the sound it couldn't be Roman. Greek could be possible, but it wouldn't be a common Greek word. But nevertheless you made a good point. Names like Tithian or Matthias are clearly Greek (concerning the sound).
Actually, Agis is a greek name, moreover, there was a Spartan king named Agis who tried to make some agraric reforms (you can refer to Plutarchi writings for more information).
Nibenay is the most obscure, but I finally found it: it's definitely based on the now-extinct Khmer Empire. Take a look at some images of one of their great temples, Ankor Wat.
I think we should be careful with operating in absolutes, but I for one think this Khmer Empire relation could have some merit, at least as far as architecture goes.
Actually, Agis is a greek name, moreover, there was a Spartan king named Agis who tried to make some agraric reforms (you can refer to Plutarchi writings for more information).
My problem wasn't with the first name. It sounds indeed very Greek (and even Roman), but with "Asticles".
Hi, while I agree with your thoughts on the real historical influences that appear in the city states this is one of my main gripes about Dark Sun.
They go to all the trouble and imagination of creating a truly unique setting and then use blatant earth based historical references, names, architectural styles etc…
While I agree in principle, having straight references to Earth cultures makes the job that much easier for the DM - pictures can readily be found (people, clothing, food, architecture) and the players can more easily visualize how the place looks. Building up and describing a unique culture takes a lot of work - both for the DM and the players. Not everyone has the luxury of having this much time on their hands
While I agree in principle, having straight references to Earth cultures makes the job that much easier for the DM - pictures can readily be found (people, clothing, food, architecture) and the players can more easily visualize how the place looks. Building up and describing a unique culture takes a lot of work - both for the DM and the players. Not everyone has the luxury of having this much time on their hands
I guess it’s more the explicit references that appeared in the official DS material, they (the writers) should have had the time to add to the setting rather than to directly copy earth cultures
. If it’s a lack of time and people were interested I’d happily create a list of references and web-sites that could add depth and widen the material that could be used. The main problem for me is describing things by calling them something in Greek, Latin, Persian or another language to create a sense of difference. IMO using the word agora for instance automatically generates a Greek feel to a locality. It’s the creation of a sense of setting, to me using these words evokes something outside Athas.
I always thought the city states beared the most resemblance to ancient sumeria, where each city had a god idol that was worshipped, and there WAS an actual city called Urik (ruled by Gilgamesh) Hammurabi (Hamanu) and Kalak's Zigguraut (which they had in Sumeria)
Uruk, and I don't think they had Kalak's Ziggurat in Sumeria. A Ziggurat sure, but not Kalak's :P