The Realm of Wendar
An Unofficial Game Accessory
“Seek glory to the north, my child, for it is Genalleth beyond Kevareth that we now hold, and Thalion that we yet will.”
This is the first in a new series of unofficial Gazetteer gaming aids for enthusiasts of the world of Mystara. This work covers the remote Realm of Wendar which lies at the northern end of the Known World.
“Realm of Wendar” provides descriptions of the history, society, and personalities of a land where elf and man live together under the protection of the mysterious Elvenstar. Here dangers menace from every direction, and adventurers answer the call of duty.
This product also provides guidelines for single class elves and introduces the poignant animal that legend called the Korrigan.
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Wendar Gazetteer is a zipped Word-document. Eventually, this will be replaced by a pdf.
There is presently room for 1 more page of text (24-page document, plus cover and back jacket). In addition, I am looking for suggestions for "inside-the-cover" material.
I hope you enjoy - Old Dawg
I
You have been selected to recieve the honor of serving on the Board of Editors for the Mystara 3.5 Campaign Setting project!
I was thouroughly impressed by your Wendar Gazetteer--seriously professional quality! I want you to work for me. Perhaps we can get an entire line of online products to rival Dragon's Foot specifically for Mystara? Please! Don't disappoint me and try to burn this draft notice--I'm certain your monitor is a little more important than that.
RSVP with an answer
Roger
A couple of points, though...
Your view of Ilsundal doesn't seem to fit with the image presented of him in the official line. Having him kill Genalleth is an interesting twist, but I personally wouldn't want to change Ilsundal's character in such a way - he is, after all, supposed to be a patient and thoughtful elf. (Also see Marco's description here.)
Also, I am disappointed to see that the settlement and place names contributed last year are all exactly the same - one of my biggest hopes was to see a revision of them, making them into one cohesive whole. I'd still like to see this done at some point.
Regarding the history section - the player's history is pretty good, but I found it a little confusing. You may want to simplify it, or at least revise it to make it easier for a clueless player to absorb.
I'm interested in your timeline - how did you assemble it? Is it based on Marco and Shawn's timeline? It seems to incorporate Geoff's Northern Wildlands timeline in whole or part, right?
On page 10, your description of the Dark Woods of Baamor seems to been misplaced in the Waterways section.
I'm still reading the rest...
in reverse order of your comments:
On page 10, your description of the Dark Woods of Baamor seems to been misplaced in the Waterways section.
Ack! That whole paragraph should have been deleted. It now has been (on mine).
I'm interested in your timeline - how did you assemble it? Is it based on Marco and Shawn's timeline? It seems to incorporate Geoff's Northern Wildlands timeline in whole or part, right?
The timeline used both Marco and Shawn's Wenden timeline [That's why I added Shawn to the contributors list] and Geoff's Northern Wildlands. The Ghyr timeline was originally included as well, but most of that disappeared in edit because it a) was not germaine to Wendar, or b) was included/contradicted with the other two sources. After that, I spent many editing passes condensing the previous authors ideas into a form that captured their intent without overburdening with diminutia. Ergo, the human Maegaluth (sp?) who blamed the elves of Forenath for the plague and was later martyred was stripped out. I also included my thoughts on glacial movements (after mapping out some probable migratory patterns) - so the Enoreth elves have to cross the glaciers. The most important previous-work deviation was that all Essurian affiliations with invading Denagothians prior to the fall of Drax Tallen were removed or replaced.
I still think the history section is too large, but I need to separate from the work for a while so to come at it fresh.
Regarding the history section - the player's history is pretty good, but I found it a little confusing. You may want to simplify it, or at least revise it to make it easier for a clueless player to absorb.
Which parts/paragraphs were confusing? Again, I may have the uber-material too fresh in my mind.
Also, I am disappointed to see that the settlement and place names contributed last year are all exactly the same - one of my biggest hopes was to see a revision of them, making them into one cohesive whole. I'd still like to see this done at some point.
Sorry to disappoint. I was trying not to step on anyone's toes since I came to the boards and the Wendar gaz late, plus your map was already available. If naming conventions are something that folks want reworked, I think I can do that. - which reminds me, I didn't include a "names" section in the playing in wendar part.
Your view of Ilsundal doesn't seem to fit with the image presented of him in the official line. Having him kill Genalleth is an interesting twist, but I personally wouldn't want to change Ilsundal's character in such a way - he is, after all, supposed to be a patient and thoughtful elf.
I didn't see it as a radical departure. Being patient and thoughtful does not preclude one from killing - either in self-defense or offensively. From the elven perspective, Ilsundal is wise precisely because he Returned the elves from a technological existence to one in harmony with magical nature. Anyone with delusions of grandeur about reacquiring Blackmoor technology would be a serious threat to Ilsundal's worldview. Removing such a threat, but letting him be remembered well to his followers has a firm thoughtful rationality.
The documented record of elven clans that were left behind (wood and water elves, ee'aar, savage coasters, glantrian elves), all absent the presence of hostile forces (save humans near Glantri) has strong implications that there were internal dynamics involved in the splintering. The sabotaging of Blackmoor sites also gives an explanation for the wild turn the migration takes from the Arm of the Immortals to the Known World and back to the "Pacific" coast. If he always knew where he was ultimately going (Immortal revelation) why not just go north up the Endworld Line? If he didn't, why was he never satisfied with where they were?
Tangentially, it always bothered me that elven Immortals like Ilsundal were just grafted onto the ee'aar with titles. If anything, Ilsundal's abandonment (what no search party?) would make him a betrayer or blackheart figure to the ee'aar. The only way they could ever know the others would be divine introduction.
-OldDawg
I've not finished to read it yet, but I'd like to advice you that the (old) timeline written by Marco and Shawn conflicts with canon in various points - especially about the dates regarding Gylharen's rise ad king of Wendar.
Months ago, on the Italian MMB, Marco begun a revision of said timeline, trying to make it more canonical. I hope he'll post here the new version of the timeline soon, in order to share it with you all and hear what you think! ;)
I expected some dolmen like structure here and there, and also a Stonehange like.
But... WOW!
It's an exellent work! I already called my players to tell them that we have te Wendar Gazetteer!
Edit: I'm traying to print it in .pdf with my Acrobat Distiller, but it does not work... I can't understand why.
I can produce .pdf files from .doc without problems... Is this file protected in some way?
I expected some dolmen like structure here and there, and also a Stonehange like.
Interesting... Just tonight, while reading Bruce Heard's comments about buildings and Wendar at the Vaults, I also considered having stone circles in Wendar...
Regarding Bruce's comments, I don't think they need to be incorporated into Wendar, at least not for anything detailing an AC 1000 setting. If used, the whole plotline only starts in AC 1009, with the first Day of Dread.
That's what made me think of standing stones - I was trying to think of how to add the idea of Wendar being a centrepoint for Mystara's magic grid, and since Bruce mentioned that it was stone structures that controlled excess magic and such, standing stones seemed like a natural choice.
Perhaps the standing stones mark a site sacred to prehuman peoples (elves, for instance) or prehistoric tribes.
Though sometimes stones stand alone, they more often join together to form various arrangements. A single standing stone is called a megalith--either a shaped slab or a more natural, tapering obelisk. Two shaped stones placed upright with a third laid across their tops constitutes a trilithon. Several megaliths or trilithons frequently form patterns, usually circles or horseshoe shapes.
Individual stones may weigh 5 to 25 tons each and stand 10 to 30 feet tall. A large circle may take a generation to build, unless powerful earth magic or suitable monsters (treants, earth elementals, or giants) help in the construction.
Standing stones fall into one of two categories: magical and nonmagical.
Nonmagical Standing Stones
Many standing stones have no innate magical properties, although they may have been built by magic.
Boundary Markers. Stones can simply mark the sacred area's borders, a common practice when a circle of trees is inappropriate.
Natural Observatory. The stones might serve as a primitive astronomical calculator (as in the case of Stonehenge), their positions marking eclipses, equinoxes, and other important solar and lunar dates whose exact times remain important for religious reasons and for maintaining the agricultural calendar. Usually one such astronomical circle of
stones exists in every major druidic domain. Creating such a circle requires two proficiencies: astrology and engineering. In some cases, these circles are relics left behind to mark the visits (and predict the eventual returns) of spelljamming space druids.
Monuments. The lives of particularly notable historical figures can merit great megalith memorials. Sometimes treasure or a body lies buried under the stone. In rare instances, although the stone has no magic, the body beneath it rests in magical suspended animation--think of King Arthur, waiting for Merlin to awaken him.
Magical Standing Stones
Magical standing stones can serve any of the nonmagical variety's purposes. Standing stones may become magical through association with druidic rites, Immortal intervention, or via the normal process used to create magical items. DMs deciding that a stone has magic either pick its powers from those described below or roll on Table 6. Add a +1 bonus to rolls for standing stones that help form a trilithon.
Table: Powers of Standing Stones
The second is to turn on hyphenation. I know it can sometimes seem irritating, but it smoothes out the distribution of words in each line tremendously, while at the same time saving some space.
After that, I spent many editing passes condensing the previous authors ideas into a form that captured their intent without overburdening with diminutia.
This is very interesting to me, because I have commented before that one problem our community has is lack of space limits. As amateur writers, facing neither page limit nor deadline, I feel that we often write too much, and fail to edit it down. I understand the counter-argument, which is that we can afford to put in more detail because we don't have to obey these constraints, but at the same time I find projects such as the almanacs to be almost unreadable due to their massive length.
It's refreshing to see a fan-made product compressed down to essentials - although 24 pages seems to be a pretty tight limit. Have you considered expanding the contents to a 64 page or even 96 page book? (Obviously I don't mean to add padding, but to add more content.)
Which parts/paragraphs were confusing? Again, I may have the uber-material too fresh in my mind.
I kinda lost track at the beginning of the second column. Too many names at once, perhaps? It seems like a good idea to restrict the number of place names in the player's section, to avoid confusion.
Incidentally, I'm not very clear on the combined histories of Wendar, Denagoth and the Northern Wildlands - it's a while since I read any of their timelines - so I think I am quite well qualified as a "clueless player" to make these comments. ;)
Sorry to disappoint. I was trying not to step on anyone's toes since I came to the boards and the Wendar gaz late, plus your map was already available. If naming conventions are something that folks want reworked, I think I can do that. - which reminds me, I didn't include a "names" section in the playing in wendar part.
Yes, it's hard to revise things without as you say stepping on someone's toes - that is definitely the primary reason that I didn't get round to revising names myself. Nevertheless I think it has to be done, because the current names are a mess of inconsistency.
I didn't see it as a radical departure. Being patient and thoughtful does not preclude one from killing - either in self-defense or offensively. From the elven perspective, Ilsundal is wise precisely because he Returned the elves from a technological existence to one in harmony with magical nature. Anyone with delusions of grandeur about reacquiring Blackmoor technology would be a serious threat to Ilsundal's worldview. Removing such a threat, but letting him be remembered well to his followers has a firm thoughtful rationality.
Thoughtful yes, but also highly manipulative and even a little sinister. It does make me think, though - times were obviously hard at that point, and you could certainly make a good case for that kind of thinking among the elves. But consider the situation: Ilsundal's group meets another migratory group, and Ilsundal quietly offs their leader, then continues on his way...
The documented record of elven clans that were left behind (wood and water elves, ee'aar, savage coasters, glantrian elves), all absent the presence of hostile forces (save humans near Glantri) has strong implications that there were internal dynamics involved in the splintering. The sabotaging of Blackmoor sites also gives an explanation for the wild turn the migration takes from the Arm of the Immortals to the Known World and back to the "Pacific" coast. If he always knew where he was ultimately going (Immortal revelation) why not just go north up the Endworld Line? If he didn't, why was he never satisfied with where they were?
This is quite a controversial interpretation of the elven migration. According to official sources, the water elves left independently; the ee'aar's history makes no mention of even being part of Ilsundal's migration; the Savage Coast and Serpent's Peninsula elves seem to have just stayed behind, content with those areas; Belcadiz elves came separately 300 years after Ilsundal's group, and so on. As far as I can see and recall, most references to Ilsundal's migration splintering are put down to people becoming lost or separated on the hard journey, or simply tiring of the extremely long migration and settling down. Also, going by GAZ5's description, Ilsundal did not know where he was going; how could he know, when he was travelling in unknown lands?
In any case, I'm not saying that your interpretation is invalid, just that it came as quite a surprise to me.
Tangentially, it always bothered me that elven Immortals like Ilsundal were just grafted onto the ee'aar with titles. If anything, Ilsundal's abandonment (what no search party?) would make him a betrayer or blackheart figure to the ee'aar. The only way they could ever know the others would be divine introduction.
I don't think that the length of Ilsundal's migration should be underestimated; 700 years is an extremely long time to be travelling, looking for a new home. It is in fact a lifetime, even for the long-lived elves. It therefore comes as no surprise that there were many who left along the way, and didn't stick it through to the end. After all, a great many of the migrants would have died along the way, while others must have spent their whole lives migrating, being born, living and eventually dying all on the course of the journey.
As for the reason that Ilsundal is worshipped by so many elven cultures, that one is quite simple: Ilsundal is an old Immortal, and has had many years to introduce himself to practically every elven culture on Mystara. Considering the relatively small number of elves in the world, it makes a lot of sense for Ilsundal to court many or all of them as followers. And don't forget that not all of them would even know what part he may have played in their history, if any.
Indentations - will do
hyphenation - under consideration
new site names - will do
length - right now, 24 seems a good amateur limit. Remember, you probably get another 6-12 pages in graphic elements in an official gaz. The personalities are unstat-ed (another 1-2 pages), so individual DMs can use whatever game system they want and vary the abilities and equipment as they see fit. Any equipment listed is notable (eg, +2 or higher). The only major element missing that's normally found in a gaz is an indepth look at the capital. There also are differences in typesetting. Mine is a close approximation, but it is not exact. Figure a 10% creep in length from that.
Player's History, beginning second column - will check and revise
Ilsundal's dispatching of Genalleth - I thought it was a logical development, but if multiple people disagree, I can change it to some follower of Ilsundal who was a bit too eager to see Ilsundal's vision become reality.
Power Lines, sentient buildings, standing stones: I did not give a physical description of the Shrines, so they could be standing stones. Power lines connect the shrines with one another and the Elvenstar. Sentient buildings - I hadn't really thought about Bruce's suggestions when putting this together. In the final once over of material at the Vaults, I decided I could integrate some elements of his ideas (no shapers or tenders). The Tower of Anorion, sitting on a well of magic, is now sentient - a rather dangerous situation for adventurers.
Printing as a pdf: I don't know why this is preventing you from making the pdf. Check your copy of the document properties and see if Archive or another box is checked. Zipping it may have changed those attributes for general users.
The various Timelines: as I said, three+sources were combined and condensed. There were modifications to the Wenden info: Gerath, Minar, Naga all disappeared, the Wizard's War was pushed up in time to correspond with a period when Thyatians could conceivably be in the region (Expansion colonies starting in 900 AC to the Alphatian Spike and a withdrawal of control. This has to do with Ghyr becoming like Camelot in Morte d'Arthur.) The reign of Essurian kings was recomputed, as was Bensarian's aquisition of the Blackstick and Elvenstar. The only discrepancy with X11 is that the Wizard's war began 3 score or 3 generations ago, rather than 3 decades ago. The Almanacs were self-contradicting, with Wendar coming into being either one or two centuries ago.
Here are some areas that I'd still like feedback on:
Watermark symbol: 9 pointed gold star (as X11) - like it, or do you want a generic pine as Wendar had at the end of the product line
Adventures: did you like the mini-campaign grouping of adventures? Any stand out as really good? Any that you thought needed excising?
Korrigan and the Elvenstar: what do you think of the sad tale of the Korrigan? (I used the RW korrigan myth in conjunction with earlier contributors' ideas that folks were disappearing around the Enchanted Forests)
Special Rules: single-class elves, a bit pedestrian at this point, but important to the feel of Wendar. At the end, I had thought of adding colddrakes as a class up at Bynflaare Hall - their class could be the 24th page.
Social Organizations - do you like the Sonnoleth Rangers and the Wendarian Pathfinders? How about the High Lords of Genalleth as a good-bad Wendarian group?
-OldDawg
Watermark symbol: 9 pointed gold star (as X11) - like it, or do you want a generic pine as Wendar had at the end of the product line
Very nice. It should be the 9 pointed (Elven-) star displayed. A tree would indicate a densely forested area like Alfheim (which is represented by a tree (oak) in its Gaz). And after all this is not book about tree-hugging-alfheimer's :P
The only thing I missed sorely while I leafed through the text was illustrations (and a map attached somewhere in the text).
Indeed. Little thought was put into this. I would promptly replace with this with a "seme of tower argent over azure"! The towers would show little tree roots underneath. As an alternative, the shield could be divided with the right half showing a field of blue towers over white, and the other a gold crown (the king) with a gold star above it (the Elvenstar) over green. Of course this would be a later development to the Wendar coat of arms. :o)
That's what Bruce Heard said about it.
For a watermark, I'd suggest a crown with the elvenstar hovering above it.
Well done!
GP
1) "Bensarian, the Sage: MU3/MU23." So, he is a Magic User (and since I'm using AD&D2ed he will be a diviner). But his level is not so clear... Is he intended to be a multiclassed character? A magic user multiclassing in magic user? It sounds weird...
I think I'm going to do him a 23 diviner and so it is. The III level combact/XXIII level magic is so strange...
2) The shrines of the korrigans: Since I'd like standing stones to mark the sacred area's borders as Boundary Markers, I think it would be nice (for Thorf) to draw a new hex and replace the Greek looking shrines in the Wendar map.
2) The shrines of the korrigans: Since I'd like standing stones to mark the sacred area's borders as Boundary Markers, I think it would be nice (for Thorf) to draw a new hex and replace the Greek looking shrines in the Wendar map.
On that note, if you are interested, Thorf- I made a standing stone hex for some of my maps (modifying a version originally supplied by James Mishler). You can find it on my Isle of Dawn maps (at least the Barony of Caerdwicca map, as I've never gotten around to posting any of the others.)
For that matter, you could use (as I have done) the same hex to represent the Stones of Sky in Vestland (from the module X13: Crown of Ancient Glory. The actual location is somewhat sketchy, since the module uses a different hex measure for its map, and the coastline is somewhat different from the Gaz series, but the Ruthin monastery and the Stones of Sky are two hexes you might consider adding to the Vestland map, if you are so inclined.
)I identify far more with individual freestanding monoliths than the Stonehenge type arches. It's a simple question of familiarity - when you played around them when you were a kid, they tend to stick in your mind.
Edit: You're right about those Vestland additions. In general, that module is really irritating as far as maps go. I added the southern Heldann stuff to my in progress Heldann map, but in the end it was simply an arbitrary placement, because the usual landmarks are simply not intact.
But I'll get to adding them eventually. I discovered a whole pile of villages to add to the map in GAZ7 last week too, in the player's book.
I made a standing stone hex for some of my maps (modifying a version originally supplied by James Mishler). You can find it on my Isle of Dawn maps (at least the Barony of Caerdwicca map, as I've never gotten around to posting any of the others.)
Your map is really interesting, Andrew.
It gives us 2 new dominions. Can you tell something about them?
Your map is really interesting, Andrew.
It gives us 2 new dominions. Can you tell something about them?
Dang- I thought I'd updated the page with that info, but I guess I haven't. For now, you can read a bit more about the dominions in that region in Chapter 3 of the story (as an addendum at the end). The plan was (is) to move that information into its own section, though.
If you don't mind, eventually I will want to convert the Korrigan to 3.5E ;)
They plains... should be The plains...
Regards
Gary
They plains... should be The plains...
How about 'Them Planes' ? ;)
Sorry, couldnt resist...
Håavrd
Aelythnar (fortress) > Aelthynar > AELYTHNAR
Ammalanleth (elven village) > Amalleth > AMMANNETH
Tower of Anorion (ruined tower) > Andorien > ANORION
Baamor Woods > BAAMOROTH WOODS
Forest of Bounty > GWENNETH FOREST
Dawnblossom-Qvar (dwarf & halfling village) >Dawblossom-Kavar > Dawnblossom-Kvar
Enchanted Forest > TRINDALL/LAURIETH
Elven Pass > AELFPASS
Everway Keep > Everway Vej/Weg-Nar/Port/Portell > ALLENAR
Hawksgate (fortress) > Hawk’s Nar > FALKNAR
Korrigan Forest > GENALLWALD
Laurianta (elven village) > Laurieth [LAURIETH – Region of gold/LAURIDHON]
Uumarne (mixed village) > Umarne [Unnurmar (wavy sea)]
Lake Phyrroe > Lake Fearomar
Alvar’s Stead > ALVARDHON
Thorf I know you just put up some name changes, but how about these ?
These are some basic word elements that are useful that seemed to naturally arise from the early names and could be used here on out.
Genitive suffix: eth (m), ell (f), oth (external, non-elven), ath/all (vowel alteration after i); also used for showing the embodiment of a trait or patrilineal descent.
Accusative prefix: n(v)
Nominative/Dative affix: -el, -il, -al, -ol
City/town/site: -(r)ion (with personal name, a magnifier)
-dhon: stand (stead, village, upright)
-nar: fortress or keep
Beside: -(ol)as
Gold: lauriel
Mist: nimbiel
So some of the names can be interpreted as
Genalleth (son of Genall, of the house Genall, the region of Genall)
Enoreth (son of Enor, of house Enor, the region of Enor, have the quality of "enor")
Sonnoleth (region of Sonnol (plains))
Kevareth (region of Kevar)
Lothenar (Deep fortress)
Geffronell (region of Geffron)
Heimsleidh (home-song)
Muil - the Mu/Mur river
Denolas (beside the foreign Den)
Neuel-ethin-Orie (Precepts given by the Nine)
Elanoitanam - monks of the nine
Elven Names
Beldarath
Aledhorn
Korgrim
Meetholan
Menathian
Eleesa
Dylian
Miridor
Ancalime
Maeglin
Idris
Mealidel
Beldareth
Aranael
Geldarion
Alvar
Lerian
Arendyll
Voronwil
Nione
Sylidair
Ilsundal
Ellareth (son of Ellar, pertaining to Ellar)
Gwindor
Indlath (of Indl)
Heldannic/Human names
Male Names
Fridrik
Hakan
Halldor
Haraldur
Hinrik
Johann
Jonatan
Korgrim (e)
Kristjan
Larus
Olafur
Oskar
Pall
Rannulf
Rogan
Thorir
Stellesdottir
Hammersen
Female Names
Anna
Brynja
Frida
Fridrika
Gudrun
Halldora
Hanna
Hildur
Johanna
Kristjana
Lara
Margret
Maria
Pala
Sindri
Svana
Thordis
Unnur
Valdis - female equivalent of Idris
Renatic Names
Male Names
Abban
Aidan
Alfred
Alfsigr
Alvar
Amarlric
Aodh
Ari
Arvid
Camla
Conan
Connor
Cormac
Dara
Derik
Desmond
Elric
Gwenael
Gylharen
Kelvin
Kendall
Lief
Nash
Qarnt
Sean
Wendar
Female Names
Agnes
Aine
Alfhild
Astrid
Bairbre
Belinda
Ethelinda
Enya
Erin
Finn
Fiona
Maeve
Siofra
I also have some name conventions set for Denagoth, but those will be released with the Denizens of Denagoth gaz next month.
-OldDawg
Genitive suffix: eth (m), ell (f), oth (external, non-elven), ath/all (vowel alteration after i); also used for showing the embodiment of a trait or patrilineal descent.
Accusative prefix: n(v)
Nominative/Dative affix: -el, -il, -al, -ol
City/town/site: -(r)ion (with personal name, a magnifier)
This is very interesting...I suppose the "sor" in Soreth should have some sort of meaning, then. If it is patrilineal descent, then the elf who lead the group that founded the city might have had a name based on "sor".
"-ath" is interesting, too. I must admit that I was thinking of Tolkien when I named Forenath ("for" indicating north, or northern - Forlond, Fornost, etc.) So, Forenath could literally mean "of the north". Likewise, I envisioned "-mark" to indicate a boundary or defined limit (similar to "march" or "margin") - the Forenmark River delineated the eastern border of Forenath.
Thalion (river and city) and Lethirion (river) could also be interpreted. Perhaps as a magnifier, Thalion could mean "most beautiful", or "most inspiring" - the city was beautiful, and the river valley could be, too. Lethirion is a bit of a puzzle - "lethir" should be an adjective of some sort. I envisioned that corner of the wildlands to be very forlorn - few elves ever settled there, and the small forest bordering the river is stunted by the strong winds whipping off the badlands. Even the lone mountain that feeds the Lethirion is bleak. So, perhaps some form of "lethir" should mean "forlorn" or "unwanted"...?
Geoff
Ideally, it should be sort of a combination of "auld" elvish (whatever that is) and Antalian (whatever that is). An idea of what auld elvish might look like is in CM7: Tree of Life (though there is very little, IIRC, only some in the poetry/inscriptions in the elvish tomb). The runes there are actual Norse runes (the same ones given in Gaz7, actually) and are different, I believe, from the runes in X11. (Of course, I've taken this to mean that the early Northmen of Mystara got their runic alphabet from the elves- we know that there were elves in the Thyatian/east coast region from various sources, and there are elvish features in one of the Vestland clans). Slight digression.
The runes there are actual Norse runes (the same ones given in Gaz7, actually) and are different, I believe, from the runes in X11. (Of course, I've taken this to mean that the early Northmen of Mystara got their runic alphabet from the elves- we know that there were elves in the Thyatian/east coast region from various sources, and there are elvish features in one of the Vestland clans). Slight digression.
[OT]Sorry for the tangent, but for some reason little things like this are what I love about Mystara! It's like finding a lost paragraph in a gazetteer. Great observation.[/OT]
I'd love to see your "Wendar elvish" lexicon if you find it, Cthulhudrew. Excellent ideas for the names and meanings too guys!
Having finally persuaded my machine to dowload this I see a number of changes have been suggested. Do you know when an upgraded version is due?
In other words should I read and comment on the one I've got or is a new one due in the next few days?
Cheers,
LJ.
I'm afraid I've been a bit slack about going back to the Wendar gaz :embarrass Only so many hours in the day, and few of those can be spent on the gaz's.
-OldDawg
First off - fab work - very impressed! I'd happily use most of it without the slightest hesitation. Especially like the modern date of X11.
I generally agree with Thorf about the history section being a little confusing. Part of the problem I think is that the history feels more like that of the Northern Wildlands than of Wendar itself. I think the section on Nimbeth, Thalion etc can be pared down without losing much information. This is doubly true if a separate wildlands gaz is planned. That way there's more room for information on the lands that become Wendar proper.
A series of small pictures showing the borders of the elven nations at different times would also help to clarify the changing situation in the history.
My other point is regarding Gylharen - I realise that the PWAs were a bit vague but I'm not convinced about the whole human origin thing. Marco and I discussed this a few months back and (as his new timeline shows) decided that the elven Gylharen can work just as well. Is there a general consensus one way or another? My vote is for an elven Gylharen but I'm interested to see the opinions of others.
Speaking of which, the date of Gylharen recieving the elvenstar seems a bit late. Sometime a little before 900 rather than after seems to fit just as easily with the timeline and matches the PWAs.
While I think about it there's very little mention of the Korrigans in the timeline but they're mentioned a lot in the later text. When are they supposed to fit in?
Cheers,
Col.
My other point is regarding Gylharen - I realise that the PWAs were a bit vague but I'm not convinced about the whole human origin thing. Marco and I discussed this a few months back and (as his new timeline shows) decided that the elven Gylharen can work just as well. Is there a general consensus one way or another? My vote is for an elven Gylharen but I'm interested to see the opinions of others.
I was one of the proponents of a human-then-elven Gylharen way back when it came up on the MML years ago (the project that led directly to Shawn and DM's Wendar/Denagoth timeline).
I am currently of the mindset, though, that there is far more reason to make Gylharen an elf than not, now- regardless of what the original concept (from X11) had. In fact, I've gone so far as to reverse the human-to-elf idea, such that the human seeming Gylharen from X11 is the direct result of the loss of the Elvenstar or a curse from Landryn Teriak.
Speaking of which, the date of Gylharen recieving the elvenstar seems a bit late. Sometime a little before 900 rather than after seems to fit just as easily with the timeline and matches the PWAs.
Joshuan's Almanac says that Gylharen was crowned king of Wendar in 901 AC, which IMO ties the dates pretty solidly to the suggested ones from the PWAs. I have Gylharen receiving the Elvenstar in 900 AC from Bensarian, which he then uses to defeat Landryn and unite the peoples of Wendar, finally being crowned king of a unified nation the following year.
Of course, my Wendar/Denagoth timeline is somewhat different from either the Shawn/DM timeline, or the Wendar Gaz timeline. I'll probably end up posting it (or at least parts of it) when I finish working on my Ghyr materials.
I've always been hesitant to post my Ghyr and Wendar/Denagoth stuff because of the differences, but I suppose there is plenty of contradictory and/or controversial fan material on the Vaults, so maybe it wouldn't be a big deal.
you are correct that the history leaned heavily on the area north of Wendar rather than Wendar proper. Various considerations were in play when I was putting the gaz together, but one of the big ones was that I didn't want to step on any toes of previous contributors. There had already been compiled a mini-gaz, plus the Marco/Shawn timeline and Geoff's NW timeline.
I cut most of the the Denagothian history material (or rather reserved it for later), but the nature of Geoff's NW timeline seemed to be a dominant structure for an elven-dominanted Wendar. I wish that I had Marco's recent timeline to work with, because there were some ideas (e.g. Thane Duncan) that would have been useful to flesh out Wendar's isolated history.
I think I have done a better job with Denagoth. Only a few necessary parts of the timeline were pulled over. Perhaps I will reverse the injustice with the NW gaz ;)
I would love to be able to add graphic elements within the text, but there is only so much that I can independently generate. If people have graphics that they want to submit for upcoming gaz's, I'd be more than happy to include them.
On Gylharen - if you want the king to be an elf or half-elf in your campaign, hey, it's your campaign. His particular race doesn't really impact the setting very much (although there is potential campaign tension between the human king and the elven lords who want to return things to the way they were.)
I know the general rule is that the most recent products are to be afforded greater weight - but that technically means that the woeful Atruaghin Clans is the most authoritative gazetteer, for instance. My personal weighting is a bit more parabolic. The following later ODD products have minimal weight relative to other products: Joshuan's Almanac, the Poor Wizards Almanac, WOTI, and the Atruaghin Clans, and then the collective body of HW materials.
Reasons vary, but there was a clear lack of project management towards the end. This doesn't mean I don't consult these documents, but I don't feel bound inviolate to their information. I moved the Wizard's War up to better fit in with a larger view of the region - which I hope will slowly be realized by readers. There are clues in the history of both Wendar and now Denagoth that should give you a hint at Ghyr.
In the end, the gazetteers are works of joy that can be used in whole or in part or be completely discarded. There are things that I would have done differently had it been created in a vacuum, and there are things other authors/editors would have done.
-OldDawg
Thank you for starting the discussion on this, it should be a lot easier to come up with good names if we pool our ideas. Also easier to avoid stepping on people's toes - though I have decided not to worry about that for now. Better to concentrate on the consistency of the map than to worry about people getting offended at changes to their creations. After all if the final map is good, everyone will probably be happy anyway.
I'm not going to put everything in quotes, because it'll take up too much space. The first line of each entry (in italics) is OldDawg's evolutions for the name, the second line is my own suggestions.
Aelythnar (fortress) > Aelthynar > AELYTHNAR
Aelythnar seems hard to pronounce, so I would go with your middle option, Aelthynar.
Ammalanleth (elven village) > Amalleth > AMMANNETH
Again this one is hard to say, and both you and I cut it. My version is Ammalaneth, but perhaps Amanalleth would be a better spelling.
Tower of Anorion (ruined tower) > Andorien > ANORION
Anorion is straight from Tolkien, and therefore (in my book) unacceptable. Andorien seems good, but I tried to escape similarity even further by going to Antirion. Antiriath might also be a good name.
Baamor Woods > BAAMOROTH WOODS
I'm not wild about unnecessary double vowels, but I don't think the name fits with the elven suffix either. I think we have to either leave it Baamor or change it to Bamoreth or Bammoroth, or something like that. (It still doesn't sound elven to me, though. Perhaps the name is not elven at all?)
Forest of Bounty > GWENNETH FOREST
There's no reason not to keep both names for this one - "Forest of Bounty (Gwenneth Forest)".
Dawnblossom-Qvar (dwarf & halfling village) >Dawblossom-Kavar > Dawnblossom-Kvar
I changed this to Dawnblossom Wyrdal, and took out the hyphen. Wyrdal means "empty valley", going by the list of dwarven morphemes in GAZ6. It seems a waste not to use the GAZ6 list for this.
Enchanted Forest > TRINDALL/LAURIETH
Laurieth is interesting, especially when we have the Laure River and Lauriantia in and around the forest. Again, I would go with both names - "Enchanted Forest (Laurieth)".
Elven Pass > AELFPASS
Sounds very Anglo Saxon. :D It definitely sounds better than the plain Elven Pass, too.
Everway Keep > Everway Vej/Weg-Nar/Port/Portell > ALLENAR
I don't see where the middle words come in (different ideas for a word for keep?), but "Allenar" seems like a good Wendarian name, while retaining the feeling of "Everway". I'll go with it.
Hawksgate (fortress) > Hawk’s Nar > FALKNAR
I'm not sure about this one. Hawk and Falcon have slightly different associations, and I think Hawk fits better for this particular keep. Moreover, the name is already in keeping with the original Wendarian names, so I'd prefer to stick with Hawksgate. Still, it's not a bad name, so perhaps we can use it elsewhere.
Another possibility is that the native elven name could be Hawksnar...?
Korrigan Forest > GENALLWALD
This could be confusing, what with the Genalleth Forest up on the plateau. Also, isn't it a little strange melding the elven Genalleth with the Antalian "wald"? In any case, it seems a shame to stop using the reference to the Korrigan.
Laurianta (elven village) > Laurieth [LAURIETH – Region of gold/LAURIDHON]
I had the same idea of adding a "village" suffix, but I went with Lauriantia. Laurieth is good, but I think we have too many "-eth" names already.
Uumarne (mixed village) > Umarne [Unnurmar (wavy sea)]
My version was also Umarne. Again, I don't like double a/i/u.
Lake Phyrroe > Lake Fearomar
Good try, but I think "fear" changes the meaning a little too much, so I'd keep "Phyr". How about Phyrromar?
Alvar’s Stead > ALVARDHON
Is this an extra settlement you added in your Gazetteer? Anyway the name is good, Alvardhon.
I'm still not sure about the number of Antalian/Heldannic sounding names we have. I guess this comes down to how you view the situation with integration of elves and humans, and I tend to view them as a single culture, with a single language. Of course, that language will probably be a variety of elven with heavy Antalian influence.
Aelythnar (fortress) > Aelthynar > AELYTHNAR
Actually, I think the middle choice was your's originally, in the mini-gaz info.
On second viewing, it is a better choice for pronunciation.
Ammalanleth (elven village) > Amalleth > AMMANNETH
I would go with either of the last two options over the still long Amanalleth contraction.
Anorion: didn't know that this was an actual Tolkein place. I would go with your Antirion for the lord and tower, and Antiriath for the dead land around it.
Baamor Woods > BAAMOROTH WOODS
I'm not wild about unnecessary double vowels, but I don't think the name fits with the elven suffix either. I think we have to either leave it Baamor or change it to Bamoreth or Bammoroth, or something like that. (It still doesn't sound elven to me, though. Perhaps the name is not elven at all?)
the "-oth" ending explicitly marks this as non-elven (like Denagoth meaning "land of Deng"). A single double "a" is okay in the list of names, like German staat. Baamoroth and Baamor Woods should be considered equivalences.
There's no reason not to keep both names for this one - "Forest of Bounty (Gwenneth Forest)".
Both names should be kept and are interchangeable. The "gwen" element came from RW names with the sense of giving and beautiful.
Again, I would go with both names - "Enchanted Forest (Laurieth)
Again, same thing. Laurieth translates to Golden or Enchanted Forest. although, I suppose it should be Lauriath to follow the linguistic guides I proposed.
Qvar to Wyrdal: okay, but I just liked the sound of "Kvar" :D
Everway Keep > Everway Vej/Weg-Nar/Port/Portell > ALLENAR
That mess in the middle was a listing of "way", "pass", and "portal" in several languages to try and find something euphonic. I gave up and went with a germanic "alle-" with the elvish "-nar" (fortress).
Glad you like Aelfpass
Hawksgate (fortress) > Hawk’s Nar > FALKNAR
I was trying to get a root that meant approximately the same thing, but we can change it to Hawksnar (or literally translated Hawksgate).
Korrigan Forest > GENALLWALD
This could be confusing, what with the Genalleth Forest up on the plateau. Also, isn't it a little strange melding the elven Genalleth with the Antalian "wald"? In any case, it seems a shame to stop using the reference to the Korrigan.
The forest atop the plateau is the Great Forest of Geffron (Geffronell). The "wald" was intended to represent an Antalian naming contribution. I chose to move away from any explicit mention of the Korrigans because the forest would have been named long before the recent introduction of the teaching of the Nine. Since the region is Genalleth-proper, I used Genall- as my base root.
Lake Phyrroe > Lake Fearomar
I wasn't too happy with this one, but "ph" just doesn't strike me as an elvish phoneme (originally the h aspirated the p, the modern "f" sound is a later evolutionary development). If we keep the modern pronunciation as "f", there is really no reason to maintain the digraph. "Mar" was, obviously, lake or sea.
Alvar’s Stead > ALVARDHON
Is this an extra settlement you added in your Gazetteer? Anyway the name is good, Alvardhon.
Alvar's Stead was mentioned in the history section of the gaz, and it appears on Geoff's NW map. It's the place where Beldareth defeated four Denagothian chieftains and became a king.
The language environment that I described in the gaz was one where most everyone, human and elf, spoke Wendarian elvish. A few old-family humans in the north spoke Renatic - an antalian/carnuilh related tongue- and recent Heldannic refugees in the southeast speak Heldannic. The most prominent area where a minority or vestigial language will make its mark is with place names, so it shouldn't suprise anyone to see some Antalian-style names.
-OldDawg
I read through the gaz again, and it is indeed a great piece of work. One question I had was whether there were any plans to produce a map along the lines of what was done for Denagoth? If so, perhaps a small map of Wendar city should be inserted at the edge, with maybe a brief section in the gaz outlining important/interesting sites in the city?
Geoff
I have no idea where the art is from but thought it was great...
Shadowmere appears on the Wendar map and is mentioned in the gaz but nothing is actually said about. Anybody have any info on this village? Thanks.
IIRC Shadowmere should be the birthplace of the hero Thelvyn Foxeyes (from Dragonlord Trilogy novels) and also a worship centre dedicated by gold dragons to the Great One.
Take or leave as you wish.
Cheers,
LJ
In the gaz there is mention of a dragon Shurilax in the same area as Shadowmere who works for the Cult of Idris. IMC, Shadowmere has slowly changed over the 1500 years since the Dragonlord trilogy. It became a town of dragon worshipping elves which fell to Shurilax some years ago. It is now a secret centre of Idrisian activity within Wendar.
Take or leave as you wish.
Cheers,
LJ
Thanks LJ. Recent developments IMC have made this option fit very well and I'll be able to use it nicely. It will be the antithesis of Brethilieth (sp?) with a whole 'distant magical cold-war' type feel to it. Yessss... this will work nicely...
:evillaughSome of the Shrines labeled on Thorf's map don't match up with the text in the gaz. The unmatched ones on the map are, Shrine of the Verdant Virgin, Sot Lore Mistress, and Sot Soul Keeper.
The unmatched gaz shrines are Sot Eternal Wanderer, Sot Verdant Caretaker, and Sot Silver Carver.
I guess Verdant Virgin = Verdant Caretaker but I'm at a loss for the other two. Anybody have a clue?
[EDIT: Added yet another question...
Is the 5-On Mark (5sp) made of silver, gold or electrum?]