Well, I can tell you, as the last person who was the Greyhawk Brand Manager at WotC, that Greyhawk sold almost as well as Forgotten Realms. It was a really successful line of products. However, when we started 3rd edition, the manager of D&D at the time decided that we had too many campaign settings, so Greyhawk got put off to the side in favor of FR. It had everything to do with not starting the proliferation of game settings and nothing to do with sales. Just for the record.
Lisa Stevens
CEO
No world has ever had more appeal than Greyhawk and no world ever will.
IF FR sales were so sufficient,
AND GH sales were the equal of FR sales,
THEN "proliferation" of settings, at least those two, should not have had any significant impact on the sales of either.
Either people were buying both, and would continue to do so, or people were buying only one, and wouldn't be expected to switch.
This sounds like suggesting you should drop nails because you stock screws, and you don't want to have a "proliferation" of wall fasteners.
and using their own logic, why did they develop Eberron?
Heh. That's a little easier.
To have a new core setting to replace GH.
Of course that still begs the question of why they'd create such a divergent setting, but . . .
This sounds like suggesting you should drop nails because you stock screws, and you don't want to have a "proliferation" of wall fasteners.
I agree. That said..
At the time, EGG wasn't on their payroll anymore, CS had disappeared, but Ed Greenwood still was around.
Here's the thing though . . .
IF FR sales were so sufficient,
AND GH sales were the equal of FR sales,
THEN "proliferation" of settings, at least those two, should not have had any significant impact on the sales of either.
Either people were buying both, and would continue to do so, or people were buying only one, and wouldn't be expected to switch.
This sounds like suggesting you should drop nails because you stock screws, and you don't want to have a "proliferation" of wall fasteners.
Good call Sam! You really hit the nail on the head! Sorry, I couldn't resist. I would say cranking out a new setting about every 7 to 10 uears helps to drive sales to a certain degree. There will always be lemmings who will seize what ever they're supplying.
As Mortepierre says, EGG was off the payroll, Carl Sargeant was gone and that left Ed Greenwood as the last of the excellent and sellable authors.
We also know that Lisa "Greyhawk Babe" Stevens is also a Greyhawk Fan, and was the GH brand manager before moving on to D&D BM.
Ms. Stevens then went on and started Paizo and is the VP or some such (I don't remember what she said she was at last years GAMA). So maybe with her and Erik Mona manning Paizo as they do we've got a good future.
Gary Holian is Greyhawk's current EGG/CS. That's not to say that there aren't many other awesome GH authors out there, but even while Carl was writting as the "main guy" and other people did as well, but they still fell under the Sargeant Era. So while Dungeon mag (and to a lesser exent, Dragon) has become our beacons of GH content, and it's comparable to what we were purchasing in the '90's we must look at where we will go to in the future.
With Mona, Holian and associates in Dungeon our Greyhawk future looks to be secure. Secure that the Flanaess will be explored deeper, but not expanded. Secure that if/when a 4th Ed. D&D game comes out, Greyhawk will likely not be the core setting and that if Ebberon is still going strong, it will be, which could mean that its base classes and races, ie Warforged, could be "genericly" placed in Greyhawk. But with MHa, hopefully Greyhawk will continue to be, not only viable, but productive and give us either reason to support Warforged (or other such oddities [for GH at least]) or legitimate reasons to ignore these things.
And of course, we need to teach our children to play D&D and Greyhawk specifically. If they do not play the pen and a paper game, only DDO, then Greyhawk will never expand and we'll be 60 wondering what is beyond the Sea of Dust, what's beyond Solnor Ocean, and is that nation really called Eyrpt?
Be Well.
Directly from the Paizo boards:
No more "GH didn't sell!" argument!
Huh.
They didn't want to do Greyhawk because there were too many campaign settings ... yet years later, they sponsored a setting search contest and brought forth Eberron.
I can understand the "too many settings" reason which is why I thought they should just license out Ravenloft, Mystara, Dark Sun, Jakander, Dragonlance, etc.
What I don't understand is why they cut off funding to RPGA who was originally assigned (by WotC) to maintain the Greyhawk line.
TheocratIssak, I don't see Eberron becoming core. I predict 4e D&D will be strictly rules with possibly a handful of sample gods and no default setting or flavor descriptors for races, classes, and monsters. D&D will be completely transparent to settings so that DMs and players will get their flavor from the setting books alone.
So, in that same thread over at Piazo, I proposed a hypothetical concept for a v3.5 Player's Guide to Greyhawk. I'm curious what you guys do or would do for a one-stop player resource.
Ranger REG, I'm right there with ya. It doesn't add up, especially with the releases of Dragonlance (originally a WotC publication after v3.5 was released),
I have no problem with DL. It's like my second favorite setting after FR. WotC was smart to let Sovereign Press to design and develop the core campaign setting material, while they're responsible for publishing it (as well as reap the revenue and profit when it comes to a core campaign setting book).
They even struck a deal with Sovereign Press to maintain the line.
The problem with giving Greyhawk to RPGA is that they're not a full-fledged publishing company. As was reported earlier, WotC cut off funding to RPGA, leaving them with no budget to publish future Greyhawk supplements, just the operation of sanctioned tournaments.
Wheel of Time and its adventure modules (released shortly after 3e first came out),
Actually, it's just one core rulebook and one campaign adventure supplement. That was the business arrangement. Had it took off, they might have negotiated a new deal to continue.
and Eberron.
Maybe my age is showing but I just cannot get excited about the new setting. I'm more interested in retro settings like GH and FR (boxed set introduced in 1987, about the same time I graduated from high school).
So, in that same thread over at Piazo, I proposed a hypothetical concept for a v3.5 Player's Guide to Greyhawk. I'm curious what you guys do or would do for a one-stop player resource.
BTW, why a player's guide when we can have a full-version hardcover Greyhawk campaign setting book? It's not like they're reprinting the softcover Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
Sighs. FWIW, at least the Blackmoor line is still continuing.
With Mona, Holian and associates in Dungeon our Greyhawk future looks to be secure.
Beg to differ.
Paizo is not presently allowed to use the name Greyhawk, thus the Age of Worms has its "Free City" not the City of Greyhawk.
Paizo is only allowed to explore the GH deities because they are in the PH.
Paizo is only allowed to use lesser GH IP because GH lingers as the "core" setting, more in the lurch these days but still.
If 4E is GH free, Dungeon and Dragon will be GH free. My bet is 4E will be GH free and so will Dungeon and Dragon be GH free.
Nothing is secure. The New Dark Ages for GH are likely just around the corner - no official support anywhere once 4E is released.
While there is hope that GH might be licensed in 4E, that is just a hope.
It is sad commentary on how desparate GH fans are that they see the "support" GH gets in Dragon and Dungeon as meaningful, let alone desireable. It is better than nothing but hardly real support such as that given to actually published setting like FR or Eberron. GH fans, clad in tatters, are reduced to cheering a thin GH gruel.
Bring on the Dark. It is always darkest before the dawn.
I have no problem with DL. It's like my second favorite setting after FR. WotC was smart to let Sovereign Press to design and develop the core campaign setting material, while they're responsible for publishing it (as well as reap the revenue and profit when it comes to a core campaign setting book).
They even struck a deal with Sovereign Press to maintain the line.
The problem with giving Greyhawk to RPGA is that they're not a full-fledged publishing company. As was reported earlier, WotC cut off funding to RPGA, leaving them with no budget to publish future Greyhawk supplements, just the operation of sanctioned tournaments.
For the record, I don't have a problem with it either. I was just pointing out evidence of multiple campaign settings having been published despite the concern over a proliferation of settings.
Actually, it's just one core rulebook and one campaign adventure supplement. That was the business arrangement. Had it took off, they might have negotiated a new deal to continue.
The point remains that just one book would be all that is needed.
Maybe my age is showing but I just cannot get excited about the new setting. I'm more interested in retro settings like GH and FR (boxed set introduced in 1987, about the same time I graduated from high school).
Understandable. I personally like both because of the differences.
BTW, why a player's guide when we can have a full-version hardcover Greyhawk campaign setting book? It's not like they're reprinting the softcover Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
A few reasons:
When I started as 3e player, who was also new to Greyhawk, I didn't even know what Greyhawk was and thought that FR was the default setting, an impression derived from playing Baldur's Gate. I had no idea what playing in Greyhawk entailed. I saw the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, but at the time it seemed like a lot of money and had way too much information for me to digest, let alone use in a campaign that was only Greyhawk in name (we were playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, but the DM didn't concern himself with the rest of the setting). So I grabbed the D&D Gazeteer thinking that would provide me with just enough details for me to get my feet wet. I was wrong. That 32-page book was so vague, it only raised more questions than it answered.
Eventually, I decided to attempt DMing a Greyhawk campaign, and I purchased a copy of the LGG, which was great for that. I chose Greyhawk is because my players were new to D&D altogether. With Greyhawk, the descriptions of races and other flavored text in the PH just worked. We wouldn't need to deal with a $40 book for them to purchase for the setting so that they could understand the differences between that world and the world presented. All of the D&D supplements simply worked as is without storyline adjustments, explanations, or adaptations.
However, as a DM, my only reason for wanting a 3e lower-costing Greyhawk supplement was for my players. They needed a one-stop resource that was easily accessible and that could introduce them to the framework of D&D's core setting. My players were all new to D&D as a whole and had no idea what Greyhawk was, let alone about its histories and peoples. It was difficult for me to introduce them to the major nations, events, and politics of the world. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer had too much information for players to be easily introduced, and the D&D Gazetteer had too little. Something along the lines of the Player's Guide to Eberron with "what you know" sidebars would have been perfect.
Instead, I emailed copies of the Official History of the Greyhawk Wars, which was a lot to digest in itself, and have sit-down sessions with each of them to inform them of the different peoples and regions of the Flanaess so that they could get an idea of their characters' backgrounds.
It would have been nice to have been able to recommend a supplement that not only contained this information in digestible bites, but also included some Greyhawk-specific game mechanics (i.e. - regional feats, prestige classes, etc.). I eventually obtained copies of the Regional Feats of Oerth from Dragon Magazine #315 and #319 and allowed my players to pick one for free.
Granted, I could refer them to copies of out-of-print resources such as the 2e Player's Guide to Greyhawk. As a DM, that's an acceptable resource in which to invest, but I can't expect them to spend money on an out-of-print book for seemingly defunct setting. The LGG was the right price, but again, the information was way too vast for players to jump in and develop character background stories, especially since the book didn't have an index.
I just think that a WotC should create a single player's supplement to support their core setting. Having a core setting like Greyhawk with a player's supplement could only encourage gamers new to D&D as of v3.5 to play D&D without having to deal with too much setting information. Player's could get the gist while DM's can invest their money in the LGG to really dig into the finer details.
In summary, I like the idea of Greyhawk being the core setting. Additionally, I like that all material presented in the generic D&D supplements fit seemlessly into Greyhawk (if the DM is willing). I hate genre supplements that are specific to a campaign (e.g. - Underdark, which should have been a generic environment book). I just think WotC needs to follow through with the idea they started. The D&D Gazetteer was fine for DM's who wanted to flesh out their own details, and the LGG was fine for DM's who wanted to learn so much more, but players have nothing. My suggestion to WotC is to use the History of the Flanaess from the LGG, an abbreviated version of the History of the Greyhawk Wars for recent events, the racial descriptions from the LGG, the PrCs from the LGJ series, the Regional Feats published in Dragon Magazine, and the list of deities in the LGG with the new domains included to create an average-priced [read: $29 ($20 from Amazon)] Greyhawk Player's Guide.
My players were all new to D&D as a whole and had no idea what Greyhawk was, let alone about its histories and peoples. It was difficult for me to introduce them to the major nations, events, and politics of the world. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer had too much information for players to be easily introduced, and the D&D Gazetteer had too little. Something along the lines of the Player's Guide to Eberron with "what you know" sidebars would have been perfect.
Interestingly before 'player guides' and 3E all my players ever had access to was the Player Handbook to make characters. The World of Greyhawk Guide, all the mods and supplements were for DM's eyes only and we learned it fine. It just takes time and patience. It's the job of the DM to dole out setting information to players not some one stop setting book. Yet for some reason campaign setting books are all the rage now, but as an old time DM it is quite ludicrous to me that the players possess the same source info that the DM has. To me that's called a spoiler. Sure a player's guide is fine but those always come out months after the regular campaign sourcebook which everyone MUST buy in order to make 3E characters in that setting. And I highly doubt WotC wants your players to NOT buy the CSB and wait till the players guide comes out.
Sure a player's guide is fine but those always come out months after the regular campaign sourcebook which everyone MUST buy in order to make 3E characters in that setting. And I highly doubt WotC wants your players to NOT buy the CSB and wait till the players guide comes out.
Which is exactly why a one-stop Player's Guide to Greyhawk could be ideal. Greyhawk is the core setting, and only the DM really needs the LGG. There's no need to distribute campaign secrets in such a book, too.
In regards to the DM doling out setting information and players reading everything anyway, that's just not feasible for the individuals in our group, all of whom have more important obligations, including me.
Beg to differ.
Nothing is secure. The New Dark Ages for GH are likely just around the corner - no official support anywhere once 4E is released.
While there is hope that GH might be licensed in 4E, that is just a hope.
It is sad commentary on how desparate GH fans are that they see the "support" GH gets in Dragon and Dungeon as meaningful, let alone desireable. It is better than nothing but hardly real support such as that given to actually published setting like FR or Eberron. GH fans, clad in tatters, are reduced to cheering a thin GH gruel.
Beg to differ too. :D
Yeah paizo being hamstrung is bad politics, but an official Greyhawk banner across the top of a book does not a good support make. I don't need to mention examples here I'm sure. If I had my choice of authors; the paizo/ LGG crew or the WotC 'official' staff, I'd choose the former since we -know- these authors care about the setting and its thousands of nuances. Hell, I'll even take Gygax over a random WotC author.
Huh.
They didn't want to do Greyhawk because there were too many campaign settings ... yet years later, they sponsored a setting search contest and brought forth Eberron.
I think the whole point of creating Eberron was they wanted to create a campaign setting entirely based on the 3.0-3.5 rules.
Which is exactly why a one-stop Player's Guide to Greyhawk could be ideal. Greyhawk is the core setting, and only the DM really needs the LGG. There's no need to distribute campaign secrets in such a book, too.
I can agree with that, it's just the timing of the Player Guide release that makes them useless I think. Since we have the LGG already and it has zero player info it is ideal, yes. But FR and Eberron DMs have to contend with players having the same CSB as them. I just think a player's guide should be conceived and released at the same time as a full CSB.
I just think a player's guide should be conceived and released at the same time as a full CSB.
I agree whole-heartedly.
So going back to my previous question, what do you guys do for doling out information to new Greyhawk players in your campaigns?
Also our campaign is pretty straight ahead. The heroes are busy making history, not studying it.
As for why Eberron - they wanted a new setting to hook the kiddies and get young players into an aging market demographic in a setting unburdened by 100 zillion old books and built to show off all the whistles and bells of 3E.
At least that's my read of it.
P.
No more "GH didn't sell!" argument!
*Takes up torch and vorpal sword*
Okay, we all know what this means...
Can someone give me and my friends the exact adress of WotC's main building?
*Horde of half-ogres roars in the background*
Paizo is not presently allowed to use the name Greyhawk, thus the Age of Worms has its "Free City" not the City of Greyhawk.
True... and the same goes for using the names "Tenser" and "Bucknard," but that's it. Age of Worms still features Kyuss, Diamond Lake, Alhaster, Prince Zeech, the Wind Dukes, and numerous other established Greyhawk proper nouns, large and small. To say nothing of adventures like "Hateful Legacy" and "Maure Castle" which are also set in Greyhawk.
Paizo is only allowed to explore the GH deities because they are in the PH.
We're still able to explore other deities from GH; Iuz has been mentioned in several adventures over the last two years, and the Core Beliefs articles mention other deities as well (to pick out only two examples of GH deities that aren't core deities appearing in the magazines).
I think the whole point of creating Eberron was they wanted to create a campaign setting entirely based on the 3.0-3.5 rules.
And then some. It's not classic benchmark D&D as Greyhawk, if you only use the four core rulebooks and none of the material from Unearthed Arcana.
Eberron is as unique as Forgotten Realms is high-magic. A fantasy noir setting, complete with action point rules.
::snip::
And my sense is that when 4E debuts and does not use GH as "core," all of these "mentions" end, in the main.
The exception might be those "features" that have come to have a life of their own in the magazines. Thus, if for example Maure Castle is a popular annual or bi-annual feature and "Paizo's house dungeon for Dungeon Magazine," it might be allowed to continue as being "grandfathered in." Or it might not. (On the Dragon side, "Iggwilv's" Demonomicon might well keep its name and keep going.)
Imagining, for example, Maure Castle was allowed to continue, it would likely have to be made more generic. In other words no level that is thematically tied to the Suel minor houses who came together to form House Maure in the nascent Duchy of Urnst. "Suel" and "Duchy of Urnst" could be "too Greyhawk." Etc.
Of course, the odd GH reference might be tossed in just like the Bad Old Days. And GH could be revisited when "Campaign Classics" are dusted off, but, in the main, GH in Dragon and Dungeon would be at an end.
Living Greyhawk's fate could well be key. As long as it dominates the RPGA, Paizo has an argument for GH, even after 4E sans GH core. But if LG goes down and 4E is GH free, Dragon and Dungeon will no longer be able to so freely or frequently slip in GH material.
Given this, I think, likely scenario, I find it silly to pin GH's future on Paizo. GH must either be licensed to a 3rd party or produced by Wotc if it is to have any life after 4E debuts, IMO.
Although it is incredibly unlikely that they will free up Greyhawk content to be used (and compete with their own settings) by a third party I don't see any reason at all for Greyhawk to be less a part of Paizo's magazines, perhaps if WotC decides to take back the magazines under its own auspices. Considering how the magazines flagged under their watch I don't expect them to open up that can of worms once again.
Really, as Greyhawk fan-boys, we need to be much more concerned that Erik Mona gets a highly coveted position with Cosmopolitan magazine.
It's a silly and childish game for WotC to play.
I am pretty sure Hreyhawk could work perfectly as a licensed setting some time - I mean, even nearly-forgotten settings like Blackmoor and the Wilderlands find their customers. - So there should be no doubt that Greyhawk would also sell.
But is Greyhawk being dropped so bad for us? - LG apparently is running marvellously, which hopefully means a constant flow of setting development and adventure in the next few years.
I dunno. I have observed many criticisms over Erik Mona's handling of the setting.
But if there are more supporters for Living Greyhawk, then more power to them, if they can continue the line, somehow. I personally, need to get over the hump over the setting's attachment with RPGA. Not a member nor likely will be.
At the moment, I am just happy that Greyhawk still has a publishing lobby, with Mr Mona and the RPGA putting out new material on a monthly basis.
What, from my point of view, seems almost always to be ignored in discussions like these, is the fact that Greyhawk is still supported in a better way than most *dropped* settings are.
- I mean, just compare 3e WoG coverage with what is being done for Dark Sun, Birthright, or Mystara. I'd say we Hawkers really can't complain. ;)
In any case, maybe the setting is licensed via d20 some day - maybe not immediately, but maybe we indeed have that luck.
Few of the regions (if any at all) have bothered to write down even a summary of recent (and not-so-recent) events. When they did, it was available almost exclusively to their members.
Basically, if you're not a RPGA member, you must:
- register (which you cannot do online anymore)
- take a test to be recognized as DM
- run mods
in order to truly know what's going on.
And, no, simply playing the mods doesn't give you access to all the background info. Only the DM can claim that.
Even then, you'll be able to run some 20 Core mods and, if you're lucky, 16 (meta-)regional mods per year. Assuming they produce that many and your team of players is of high enough level to participate.
That means around 150 to 190 other (meta-)regional mods per year to which you have zero access (unless you can afford to travel a lot).
Can you imagine the number of plots, ideas, etc.. that you never hear about?
Sorry, but that's not my definition of a good setting.
That said, it's still better than nothing
Still, I wish a "middle-ground" could be found with the RPGA perhaps posting a summary of "core" plots now closed, if only to give the LG players a chance to know what went on in other parts of their world.
Sure, but the problem is that what the RPGA-LG campaign does for the setting isn't widely available to fans. You'll notice that many complain little to nothing is known about the "broad picture" of what the GH of LG has become after 5 years of constant gaming.
Few of the regions (if any at all) have bothered to write down even a summary of recent (and not-so-recent) events. When they did, it was available almost exclusively to their members.
Basically, if you're not a RPGA member, you must:
- register (which you cannot do online anymore)
- take a test to be recognized as DM
- run mods
in order to truly know what's going on.
I was pretty active in this for a while, haven't ran anything for about a year or so. I will say that 90% of this stuff isn't good enough for Dungeon magazine standards IMO. Also depending on what region you live in you really don't have access to modules outside of your area except for Core scenarios. So you guys aren't really missing anything from an adventures standpoint. While its true that much of Greyhawks history finds its origins in old tournament adventures that isn't what LG has been doing. From the many posts on Canonfire and other places that I have seen the Triads mostly ignore the outcomes of scenarios and decide to bump off kings and dukes at the drop of a hat. If we ever do see another official setting book for Greyhawk I hope they ignore the LG timelines in its entirety. It would simply be a mess to try to cherry pick the good from the bad.
From the many posts on Canonfire and other places that I have seen the Triads mostly ignore the outcomes of scenarios and decide to bump off kings and dukes at the drop of a hat.
Don't confuse one set of complaints about one specific event for some grand trend.
I have seen only one thread addressing such an incident, and another bemoaning the death of another ruler as "insufficient" for the NPCs "legacy." That's one out of twenty eight (now twenty nine) regions over five years, with one other complaint about a summary.
I know of two other rulers taken out as a result of story-line actions, one of whom has been restored.
"Drop of a hat"???
I know of two other rulers taken out as a result of story-line actions, one of whom has been restored.
"Drop of a hat"???
Which is the problem with Living Greyhawk. You are talking about 5 years of game development AND 5 years of campaign time. If we wanted our Greyhawk history to resemble Ed Greenwoods FR novels without the IV drip of Ritalin then by all means indoctrinate the LG wholesale into the next official resource.
I play in Yeomanry (albeit sporatically) and I've never noticed anything earthshattering going on. I view Living Greyhawk like I'd view anyone else's home campaign: interesting but not ultimately relevant to my own game.
That is my experience in my region, I imagine you either have a Triad that developes a lot for their scenarios or one that does barely enough to get by. I don't want to be too negative but as far as my personal view of Greyhawk goes it only takes one or two bad apples to spoil the whole barrel. [Continuing with the bad cliches] I would much rather throw out the baby AND the bath water and start over again at 591. I think it would be a nightmare to do otherwise.
Which is the problem with Living Greyhawk. You are talking about 5 years of game development AND 5 years of campaign time. If we wanted our Greyhawk history to resemble Ed Greenwoods FR novels without the IV drip of Ritalin then by all means indoctrinate the LG wholesale into the next official resource.
As opposed to it being brain dead in an irreversible coma, with nothing ever happening, allowed to happen, or recognized as being reasonable to happen.
Yes, 5 years of game development AND 5 years of campaign time. With over 200 regional adventures, 40 metaregional adventures, and 80 core adventures. That is over 300 game sessions in 5 years. That is more than home campaigns can manage. But for anything to actually happen is still too much for you.
I want my Greyhawk history to be active and ongoing. And based on how often people ask for new books to be published for the setting, I suspect so do most of the fans who support it.
I want my Greyhawk history to be active and ongoing. And based on how often people ask for new books to be published for the setting, I suspect so do most of the fans who support it.
I concur Sam, but that's the heart of the problem. I know the other regions are active. Unfortunately, I have NO idea of what's happening there (and I blew enough skill pts in Knowledge (local - all MR), yes 1 for each + core) to justify this knowledge. Yet, when I ask a DM from my region what's going on elsewhere - even in other regions from OUR metaregion - more often than not all I get is a blank look.
I nearly wept with joy when I saw the pdf Ahlissa had put forth for 595 CY and I wish all other regions would do the same on a yearly basis and publish it on the web where every LG players can find it.
I am not asking for specific info, of course, only what has become common knowledge in the various regions. Stuff like: the king was just killed, or we have vampires running loose in the city.
Moreover, I think the authors of story arc should publish what the most frequent outcome has been. They know it since they're asking for reports and they must decide it since they'll base future mods in the same region on that outcome. So, why not tell the rest of the world?
Small frustrating example: one group goes through a mod where they're supposed to save a foreign ambassador. They succeed. Yet, later on, they learn that a majority of the groups that went through the same mod failed badly enough that the "average" outcome is a dead ambassador and a higher risk of war for their country. Don't you think they are entitled to know that?
An ultimatum to release such a summary? And just remove all Triads that don't produce them on time? All that will get is a higher turnover in Triad members.
And bear in mind, adventures remain active until the end of the year AFTER they are released. Including too much information in other current adventures, or in general summaries, would spoil the adventures for other players.
It is nice to want such summaries, but it isn't that easy to get them.
I do agree that it would be very nice for people to have a way to see what is going on in the various regions. I believe that was what the "Regional Dispatches" in the Living Greyhawk Journals (that are published with Dragon and Dungeon magazines) but I don't think they do them frequently or detailed enough.
Until very recently the closest LG event was held about an hour away. I have played a few times and found the experience rather empty. I only wish that at the very least we would get an informative update for all major activities but what I really want is to play all the adventures I missed out on. I know that is more than I will probably ever have time to play but nothing wrong with wishful thinking and hope I guess.
So what would you like?
Just what I stated in my previous post: a yearly summary of those events which are now "common knowledge (local)" in each region.
An ultimatum to release such a summary? And just remove all Triads that don't produce them on time? All that will get is a higher turnover in Triad members.
Now, you're twisting my words. I never said anything about forcing anyone to do that. I just hoped common sense would prevail and they would do it on their own.
And bear in mind, adventures remain active until the end of the year AFTER they are released. Including too much information in other current adventures, or in general summaries, would spoil the adventures for other players.
It is nice to want such summaries, but it isn't that easy to get them.
Yes, and it's now 596 CY. Which means there isn't anything preventing us from knowing what happened in-between 591 and 594 CY. Yet, where are those summaries? Right..
I said it before and I'll say it again: "I do NOT want spoiler info". What I want is info about events now "retired". Is that too much to ask?
For instance, I went through the Dust trilogy and I know full well who my team managed to put on Tenh's throne. Yet, for all I know, a majority of players chose someone else and thus I am clinging to an oath of loyalty that will never ever mean a thing (not to mention the land grant..)
Sorry, but that's not my definition of a good setting.
That said, it's still better than nothing
Yes, indeed. I share your ideas. LG is far from being what I'd call an ideal solution, but still, it means there is an active lobby for WoG out there that is accepted from official side.
As to the organization, I don't understand the restrictment policy either. Other *Living* Games put they stuff out for free and for everyone and run at least as well as LG.
Still, I hope that, because it's becoming increasingly difficult for newcomers to enter the ongoing campaign, the RPGA releases another LGG, maybe with updated information.
It should be that of a problem, I think, and would be a high bestseller, I am sure.
The other factor counceling against blanket endorsement of LG as future GH canon is the need for all those adventures to "matter." This will, I have no doubt, have lead to "hot shoting" plots for short term interest without thought to long term GH development outside the immediate needs of LG. "Ether threat" trashing Tenh? Isles of Woe rising? These may make for exciting adventures that "matter" but are they good for long term GH development outside the LG? The thought porobably never occurred to the writers of those adventures.
The LG material deserves to be looked at and fairly evaluated. If this is not possible, dump it.
Of course, any IP holder is an "elite" who can decide GH's future for the fans. But if anyone is asking the fans, the fans need access to the LG material to offer an informed thought and lacking this ability, the only reasonable thought is, IMO, dump it. I will not endorse a cipher.
Is that difficult for the LG or anyone? Probably. Too bad. If anyone wants my opinion, I need something to base it on. I'm not going to offer an endorsement in blank. No more than signing a blank cheque.
Likely, however, this is all moot. As has heretofore been the case, the "elites" will decide for the fans and then the fans will vote with their wallets. Thankfully, GH has proven it can take a serious beating and still answer the bell.
YMMV.
Now, you're twisting my words. I never said anything about forcing anyone to do that. I just hoped common sense would prevail and they would do it on their own.
No, I just want to highlight how difficult it is to get something so simple out, even when everyone recognizes how useful it would be.
Yes, and it's now 596 CY. Which means there isn't anything preventing us from knowing what happened in-between 591 and 594 CY. Yet, where are those summaries? Right..
Again, they are requested. What if they aren't produced?
I'd like to see those too, but to borrow Gary Holian's phrase, getting Greyhawkers to do anything is like herding cats. The Triad's are no different.
For instance, I went through the Dust trilogy and I know full well who my team managed to put on Tenh's throne. Yet, for all I know, a majority of players chose someone else and thus I am clinging to an oath of loyalty that will never ever mean a thing (not to mention the land grant..)
I don't have a copy of the adventure, but as I recall, if the stone was brought back, Labahlah AoLaba, the son of Marshall Laba, is now Duke It rejected Duke Ehyeh, as well as the Palite claimant, and accepted him.
:prays fervently to any Greyhawk deities that might listen:
If only Ed Greenwood would coopt the Dust Series for the Realms....or maybe Keith Baker will run out of ideas for Eberron.
:prays some more:
I don't have a copy of the adventure, but as I recall, if the stone was brought back, Labahlah AoLaba, the son of Marshall Laba, is now Duke. It rejected Duke Ehyeh, as well as the Palite claimant, and accepted him.
Yes, that's what we did and I suspect others did too but the DM told us afterwards that if you gave the stone to either Ehyeh or the Palite, they would hoard it and claim they were the rightful ruler but without using the stone. Given the AR offers 3 different oaths of loyalty, I am inclined to believe him. Thus, 3 possible outcomes.
Case in point, we finished Riddle of the Dust by siding with the rebels. Yet, when we began War of the Dust, we learnt that - apparently - a majority of players had sided with Ehyeh instead and thus that's how the "majority" background went.
Sam, I understand how tough what I ask for is. Yet, if we continue to sit silently and do nothing, then nothing will happen. That's for sure. However, if a majority manages to get itself heard, maybe - just maybe - the triads will feel a need to produce such a summary. Some do already. Others have promised they would.
And, Lassiviren, while I concur with you about the Ether story arc, I do not about the Dust trilogy. It was very well prepared (if a bit too lethal in the third part) and offered some great role-playing opportunities. How often do you get a chance to save a country and crown its new leader? Paul did a A+ job on that one.
Tenh was all but gone thanks to the Ether Threat. Thanks to the Dust trilogy, it now stands a chance again. I, for one, am grateful for that.
As for a canon timeline, consider Mystara (beautiful setting!): fans are doing a marvelous job advancing the timeline. Maybe we have to considerate a similar idea, with the help of Erik MOna and some other WotC interested guys :D
Again, they are requested. What if they aren't produced?
I'd like to see those too, but to borrow Gary Holian's phrase, getting Greyhawkers to do anything is like herding cats. The Triad's are no different.
Just to advertise, our retired scenario summaries are online. Granted, it's not much (we only started in Y3) but might give you some ideas: http://www.thesplinteredsun.info/naerie/retiredscenarios.doc
S.H, the guy from Naerie
And, Lassiviren, while I concur with you about the Ether story arc, I do not about the Dust trilogy. It was very well prepared (if a bit too lethal in the third part) and offered some great role-playing opportunities. How often do you get a chance to save a country and crown its new leader? Paul did a A+ job on that one.
Tenh was all but gone thanks to the Ether Threat. Thanks to the Dust trilogy, it now stands a chance again. I, for one, am grateful for that.
I would only agree to that if the Dust series was moved back to 591 CY. Even given that I think it should be primarily the Flan driving out the Stonefisters from their lands rather than some pseudo-mystical Tostencha-Arthurian divine right to rule the land mumbo-jumbo mojo that decides things. I realize someone had to work with the Ether Threat but it really needs to be excised entirely.
I agree that it made for a cool adventure but it should be a foot note in history not the deciding factor over the survival of a nation.
The only thing the Dust trilogy did was to give a chance to the land itself to be restored.. some day in the far future. The Palish are still there. Iuz's minions are too. And the Stonefisters are just beyond the border. I would say the new Duke has plenty on his hands as it is if he ever hopes to rule a united nation again...
Heck, I wish the land was back to normal immediately. That way my character could finally cash in on those 1000 acres he supposedly owns. Boy, the number of spells I could add to my spellbook with that kind of money is enough to make me drool
"snip" Still, I wish a "middle-ground" could be found with the RPGA perhaps posting a summary of "core" plots now closed, if only to give the LG players a chance to know what went on in other parts of their world.
Amen, of all of the regions only the Theocracy of the Pale has ever released any real information on retired modules. Geoff has done a good job revealing the results of their stroylines in their narratives, but no details on how or what was done to accomplish these results.
Trevor
.. of all of the regions only the Theocracy of the Pale has ever released any real information on retired modules.
Actually, Ahlissa (Naerie) has too. Still, that's two out of a lot
and using their own logic, why did they develop Eberron?
Simple answer to a simple question: Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms were created under the TSR regime. Eberron is Wizards of the Coasts baby.
Plus it's sensibilities are more pitched towards the kind of pulp high fantasy that the Final Fantasy/computer RPG generation are used to.
Plus it's laid out to blow and ring all the whistles and bells that 3E+ D&D has.
Essentially, it was a strategy to infuse a new generation of players new blood into the aging RPG demographic.
Or at least that's how I read it.
P.
Simple answer to a simple question: Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms were created under the TSR regime. Eberron is Wizards of the Coasts baby.
Meh. It's a simple case of trying to market the D&D product with something new. I should know. When I got out of high school, I was looking at a brand-spanking new Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting boxed set, even though TSR was still publishing Greyhawk.
Essentially, it was a strategy to infuse a new generation of players new blood into the aging RPG demographic.
Or at least that's how I read it.
P.
I agree. I think it fails because the demographic is, in fact, aging - the dirty secret being that the RPG audience is not expanding, no attempt is being made to expand it (with no idea of how to even try - Eberron selling mainly to people who already game) and every attempt is being made solely to reach those already playing or who have played.
Fundamentally, I think Wotc has no respect for the game or gamers beyond the immediate desire to sell them product. The failure is not understanding why D&D originally sold and instead assuming this is obvious, despite the fact that plateaued participation/sales suggests the answer is not obvious. 3X was brilliant only in that it brought many back to the table who had been there before but left - it was not brilliant in terms of expanding the number of people who choose to pick up the game fresh.
Wotc runs on fumes of the 80s, and less so the 90s. How long it can continue to do so remains to be seen.
I'll agree with GVD that WotC could be doing a lot more to develop the gamer base. Possibly the best advertising they get is when Salvatore or Weis&Hickman hit the NYT bestseller list.
Which is sad, really.
Oggie
Does anyone still remember "T$R"? The fun reference to TSR and their bottom-line monopolistic attitude? How they crushed any website that dared post AD&D specific game information. How the pumped out books and settings like their was no tomorrow. How they churned things out often with no regard for quality, continuity or the fans?
"There has never been an age that did not applaud the past and lament the present."
"There has never been an age that did not applaud the past and lament the present."
I remember those days vividly. TSR was the Lucas Films of gaming but in fairness they learned the mastery of copyright lawsuit from Edgar Rice Burrough's estate when Gary tried to publish a wargame based on the John Carters of Mars series of books.
I'm training two new DMs so they can go forth and spread the dice-love around.
As much as they might WANT to, it is not WotC's job, nor is it even within their power, to bring new gamers in. It's ours. Advertising only goes so far (and there's not a lot of that); it's up to us to make new friends and show them the possibilities of what RPGs mean and what they can get out of them.
Final thought, and back on topic: As a DM-fan of the Ravenloft and Planescape settings, I advise you all to consider yourselves lucky to have the support of the RPGA and Dragon/Dungeon, even to the extent that you do: I don't have anything LIKE that. What I DO have, though, are two incredible online communities that develop my campaign settings perfectly well, and I'm still only going to use what I want and make up the rest.
I'd still buy a Greyhawk Campaign Setting, though.
"Advertise! Advertise!! Advertise!!!"
I have never seen an ad for an RPG (and Wizards really is the only serious company that can afford a national advertising campaign) in mainstream media (TV or non-gamer magazines).
I know there have been rare exceptions, and sightings of D&D adverts are treated on the boards like sightings of the Ivory Billed Woodpecker (believed to be extinct except for possibly a single bird sighted in Louisiana 90 years after the last recorded sighting).
If I were working for WotC and wanted to expand the market, I'd do up a slick computer graphic-heavy commercial (easy these days) of a LotR-style adventure party slogging through a swamp... some spectacular creature jumps out, and they hack it apart... find a half-submerged tomb/temple entrance straight out of a Lara Croft film... kill some more monsters in the dark, with spectacular spells going off... and break into a treasure room... as the party sifts through the treasure, the party members digitally morph into a group of players sitting at a table rolling dice.... then the tag-line appears....
"Join the Adventure. Dungeons and Dragons."
Then show that commercial on both cable (like the Sci Fi network) and on mainstream TV with action-adventure and mystery shows.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
=================================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness, new spells and items, ancient history, locations, maps, etc.
Then show that commercial on both cable (like the Sci Fi network) and on mainstream TV with action-adventure and mystery shows.
When Sci-fi recently showed the direct to TV movie of D&D 2 they missed a great opportunity to advertise I bet. Games that WotC -really- bank on like pokemon and duel masters have built in advertising as the cartoons ARE the commercials for their junk.
The secret to sales and expanding market is... as the experts say...
"Advertise! Advertise!! Advertise!!!"
I have never seen an ad for an RPG (and Wizards really is the only serious company that can afford a national advertising campaign) in mainstream media (TV or non-gamer magazines).
I know there have been rare exceptions, and sightings of D&D adverts are treated on the boards like sightings of the Ivory Billed Woodpecker (believed to be extinct except for possibly a single bird sighted in Louisiana 90 years after the last recorded sighting).
I have to disagree. In 2004 the history channel and Dungeons & Dragons joined forces to bring us a 2 hour IIRC special about King Arthur that matched up with the release of the movie, King Arthur. For about 6 weeks i saw ads for the program and for D&D. Both were constantly playing on the history channel. While the history channel isn't the best channel for gaining new players, IMO, it definitely was an expansive and blanketing marketing push. Even if it was only on channel and if IIRC it was also advertised on the Discovery, National Geographic and TLC channels as well in my region of the Midwest.
Also, in 2005 we saw the release of Wrath of the Dragon God. I thought this movie was much better than the Dungeons and Dragons movie released in 2000. This was aired twice on the Sci-Fi channel and also was accompanied by numerous weeks of advertising. The advertising focused on the program and on D&D ads similar to the ones found in Dungeon Magazine. "Join the adventure, etc." The Sci-Fi channel was an excellent place to advertise for new players as, anyone watching this channel is more than likely already a fan of materials similar to D&D.
I haven't seen much for ads outside of D&D magazines and FLGS this year but the year is still young. There are nine more months to go and I look forward to at least one campaign of D&D advertising. But, as has been stated above, players and DMs are the best way for this game to expand. Much like other hobbies, D&D only spreads to those we bring into the fold for the most part.
And then some. It's not classic benchmark D&D as Greyhawk, if you only use the four core rulebooks and none of the material from Unearthed Arcana.
A campaign is simply background material. You could change the name of any PrC in the game to an Ebberon name/background, and the rules are the same. A campaign is all about description/colo/fluff. The rules are simple game mechanics. You could play in Ebberon using any rules system at all; it simply wouldn't be D&D is all.
The core rules are static; the campaign background info is the differing factor. That is why there are documents like the SRD. Ebberon reflects nothing specifically about the 3.0/3.5e rules. There is in fact only the contrary- added rules to reflect aspects of Ebberon that are not specifically covered in the core rules, or additional rules options that add to the core rules but that could be represented in any game system. The same goes with other campaigns, such as the horror rules in d20 Cthulhu and Ravenloft. You just have to have those, otherwise the rules wouldn't reflect those game worlds properly.
WOTC simply wanted to try something "new", even though much of Ebberon takes from the succes of the fantasy steam-punk revolution so successfully begun by Privateer Press. It hasn't worked out as well as full Greyhawk support probably would have, but thems the breaks.
Greyhawk is one of the things that made D&D what it is.
WOTC cancelling Greyhawk would be like Burger King deciding not to sell hamburgers any longer. "We are Burger King- home of the chicken sandwich!"
Killing off what made you in the first place is not the smartest of things to do, and yet this appears to be exactly what is happening.
Greyhawk is one of the things that made D&D what it is.
WOTC cancelling Greyhawk would be like Burger King deciding not to sell hamburgers any longer. "We are Burger King- home of the chicken sandwich!"
Killing off what made you in the first place is not the smartest of things to do, and yet this appears to be exactly what is happening.
I don't know if it is so much WotC cancelling Greyhawk as it is Hasbro saying "Find something that works, or find a new job!" I think Eberron was an oppurtunity for WotC to have a brand new campaign that was uniquely "WotC D&D" the fact that they basically used the TSR model for creating the campaign (find a person who has one: Ed Greenwood, Gary Gygax) isn't a surprise. What I find surprising is that they would base so much on a brand new CS, after all campaign books are always going to sell far less than player sourcebooks. Just look at the Complete series versus the Eberron or FR books. It only makes sense that these books are going to be less usefull for players than DM's who represent a smaller percent of people playing.
The D&D mini's were brilliant marketing, a game that creates it's own player base as well as being useful for D&D players and DM's. It remains to be seen how long it will last.
It's going to be hard for them to ignore the popularity of Greyhawk when the bubble bursts, eventually they will probably cave and supply something to see how well it sells and lets hope it isn't complete rubbish.
I say license GH to Paizo/Green Ronin/me and my friends and let them publish the heck out of it. If they issue a Globe of Oerth the size of a beach ball I'll buy it. If they publish a Greyhawk City Message Spell Directory with business listings in the Gold Pages I'll take it.
LGH continues to function as it has been, independant of anything published by the publisher that wins the GH sweepstakes. If the RPGA, WotC and the independant publisher want to combine forces so be it. Beggars can't be choosers and I'm sure we'd all learn to accept/ignore as we see fit. I know my DM will and I probably will too. If I can't ignore it I'll raise an army and rearrange things in the Flanaess as I see fit.
A free book is automaticly lost money as someone needs to be write it, research it, edit it, format it and more.
A new book is expensive. You need to sell a certain number of copies before the book becomes profitable. You're pretty much selling the first few thousand copies at a loss so unless you have a print run in the tens of thousands it has to be expensive.
Each new official Campaign Setting book means that's one more person not buying either Eberron or Forgotten Realms, and one more that knocks the profit down from each (and into a line that might barely be cutting even).
I really can't see Greyhawk being that appealing to new gamers. It's old and it's been around for 30 years, ten longer than the Realms. Like the Realms seems daunting with the number of products, why wouldn't Greyhawk do the same? Personally, I'm surprised the Realms is still around for the same reasons, it's keeping afoat on nostalgia and old players.
And would one book really be enough? If they published a GHCS then people would want a new Player's book or some extra Prestige Classes or Feats. If they published that people would want a monster or DM book. And I'm sure the fans of all the other settings with history (Mystra/Hollow World or even Spelljammer) would want a new book as well.
Each new official Campaign Setting book means that's one more person not buying either Eberron or Forgotten Realms, and one more that knocks the profit down from each (and into a line that might barely be cutting even).
I really can't see Greyhawk being that appealing to new gamers.
As I currently do not purchase any Eberron or Forgotten Realms products, a Greyhawk book, even just a reprint of old material with updated 3.5 stats, would increase WOTC sales. If WOTC chooses not to make cash that is fine with me, as long there are sites where I can buy the few books I do not have. I can and have updated some older material to 3.5 already, a new campaign book would just save me time. As to Greyhawk being old and not appealing to new gamers, then why do posts appear with new gamers wanting to know more about the “default setting”. In my current group only 1 person has spent the cash for the Eberron campaign setting, and 2 others the Forgotten Realms, yet we still adventure in Greyhawk. Majority rules 4 of 7 prefer Greyhawk, Eberron only gets 1 vote in my group, so the question is, does Eberron make any money? It unquestionably has to make some, but if as the first post indicated Greyhawk sells as well as Forgotten Realms, why the lack of support for a product that makes CA$H?
A campaign is simply background material. You could change the name of any PrC in the game to an Ebberon name/background, and the rules are the same. A campaign is all about description/colo/fluff. The rules are simple game mechanics. You could play in Ebberon using any rules system at all; it simply wouldn't be D&D is all.
The core rules are static; the campaign background info is the differing factor. That is why there are documents like the SRD. Ebberon reflects nothing specifically about the 3.0/3.5e rules. There is in fact only the contrary- added rules to reflect aspects of Ebberon that are not specifically covered in the core rules, or additional rules options that add to the core rules but that could be represented in any game system. The same goes with other campaigns, such as the horror rules in d20 Cthulhu and Ravenloft. You just have to have those, otherwise the rules wouldn't reflect those game worlds properly.
WOTC simply wanted to try something "new", even though much of Ebberon takes from the succes of the fantasy steam-punk revolution so successfully begun by Privateer Press. It hasn't worked out as well as full Greyhawk support probably would have, but thems the breaks.
Greyhawk is one of the things that made D&D what it is.
WOTC cancelling Greyhawk would be like Burger King deciding not to sell hamburgers any longer. "We are Burger King- home of the chicken sandwich!"
Killing off what made you in the first place is not the smartest of things to do, and yet this appears to be exactly what is happening.
Why are you arguing? I'm on your side. I understand and agree with the points you made.
As I currently do not purchase any Eberron or Forgotten Realms products, a Greyhawk book, even just a reprint of old material with updated 3.5 stats, would increase WOTC sales. If WOTC chooses not to make cash that is fine with me, as long there are sites where I can buy the few books I do not have. I can and have updated some older material to 3.5 already, a new campaign book would just save me time. As to Greyhawk being old and not appealing to new gamers, then why do posts appear with new gamers wanting to know more about the “default setting”. In my current group only 1 person has spent the cash for the Eberron campaign setting, and 2 others the Forgotten Realms, yet we still adventure in Greyhawk. Majority rules 4 of 7 prefer Greyhawk, Eberron only gets 1 vote in my group, so the question is, does Eberron make any money? It unquestionably has to make some, but if as the first post indicated Greyhawk sells as well as Forgotten Realms, why the lack of support for a product that makes CA$H?
But that's your group who are already in Greyhawk. If they were playing in another world wouldn't they be buying books for that? If you were playing in Eberron I'd bet more than one in the seven would be buying the books. Simply a matter of use.
I think it's interesting that 3 out of the 7 people in your group have spent money on books they're not going to use.
But here's a rough popularity gauge:
Greyhawk - 1,571 threads and 18,710 posts
Eberron (general) - 5,324 and 79,039
Realms (general) - 3,601 and 46,437
and for comparison:
Dark Sun - 3,274 and 44,406
DragonLance - 3,274 and 44,406
Star Wars RPG - 3,322 and 42,350
Sure, it's a rough gauge but it's telling than just ONE of the five Eberron boards sees more action than all of Greyhawk.
But here's a rough popularity gauge:
Greyhawk - 1,571 threads and 18,710 posts
Eberron (general) - 5,324 and 79,039
Realms (general) - 3,601 and 46,437
and for comparison:
Dark Sun - 3,274 and 44,406
DragonLance - 3,274 and 44,406
Star Wars RPG - 3,322 and 42,350
Sure, it's a rough gauge but it's telling than just ONE of the five Eberron boards sees more action than all of Greyhawk.
Judging by popularity has no merit. If Greyhawk received the marketing treatment that either of those others have received, I think it would do well.
Keep in mind that my argument for Greyhawk isn't for the sake of nostalgia. I only discovered Greyhawk as of 3rd edition. When I started my own campaign, I chose to use Greyhawk because of the ease with which new players (my entire group with the exception of one), could get into without having to deal with too much of an adjustment for the sake of a setting, and they were very grateful for this since they had a hard enough time learning the existing rules without having to deal with overly-exotic settings.
IF WotC produced the Player's Guide I keep wishing for, it would help my players to understand the differences among cultures and regions in a bit more detail. After all, it is the core setting. In my mind, a Player's Guide would also include content such as the regional feats, GH-specific prestige classes, and the optional rules for varying stats among the sueloise, oeridians, rhennee, and flan, as well as other player options that one could imagine.
I think a PGtG would only help support players using the setting as a core setting.
FR, DL, or Eberron are all very metaplot--driven settings. - Means, one got to stay up to date to create a "real" campaign. - I personally have earned the impression that this is an energy that only kids or teens can bring in.
More static settings like WoG, although less profitable, have a much more loyal customership because, set aside a few updates every year, one can always return to the setting without disregarding to much canon.
If one would want a real indication for popularity, I would ask better how many published *default* adventures are played out in Greyhawk. Judging from what I catched over at other boards, I'd say it's quite a lot.
But that's your group who are already in Greyhawk. If they were playing in another world wouldn't they be buying books for that? If you were playing in Eberron I'd bet more than one in the seven would be buying the books. Simply a matter of use.
I think it's interesting that 3 out of the 7 people in your group have spent money on books they're not going to use.
Sure, it's a rough gauge but it's telling than just ONE of the five Eberron boards sees more action than all of Greyhawk.
We started about two years ago on Greyhawk, after Eberron came out I believe. No one in my group other than myself has purchased any Greyhawk material why, no new books. As far as buying other campaign settings the two bought the Realms because they started D&D there. Now to the number of posts on this site, only two of the seven in my group even visit wizards.com, heck I didn’t even know about it until late 2003. The Greyhawk board is stuck under two subdivisions while Eberron and the Realms have space on the main page. It took about 6 months on wizards.com for me to find the Greyhawk board; I didn’t even know it existed until a link for a post in what’s a DM to do. If that link had not been there how long before I found Greyhawk, a year after I signed up?
I have never seen an ad for an RPG (and Wizards really is the only serious company that can afford a national advertising campaign) in mainstream media (TV or non-gamer magazines)
TSR used to run ads for Gamma World in "Boy's Life" (the cub/boy scout mag).....in the 70's!!!
Tony
Keep in mind that my argument for Greyhawk isn't for the sake of nostalgia. I only discovered Greyhawk as of 3rd edition. When I started my own campaign, I chose to use Greyhawk because of the ease with which new players (my entire group with the exception of one), could get into without having to deal with too much of an adjustment for the sake of a setting, and they were very grateful for this since they had a hard enough time learning the existing rules without having to deal with overly-exotic settings.
You want something easy and not overly-exotic? That's exactly what Forgotten Realms is. Problem solved.
IF WotC produced the Player's Guide I keep wishing for, it would help my players to understand the differences among cultures and regions in a bit more detail. After all, it is the core setting. In my mind, a Player's Guide would also include content such as the regional feats, GH-specific prestige classes, and the optional rules for varying stats among the sueloise, oeridians, rhennee, and flan, as well as other player options that one could imagine.
I think a PGtG would only help support players using the setting as a core setting.
You want something to define the world and its cultures? Buy 2E products for the fluff text.
And since it's the generic Core setting all of the "Complete ____" and "Races of ____" books must be 100% Greyhawk as well, so there are PrC and feats.
Problem solved.
But really, gods and blurb by the message boards aside, is Greyhawk really the default setting? Is 3E with its bardic gnomes and nomadic halflings really an accurate reflection of Greyhawk? Do the role-playing notes in the book really reflect anything previously published?
Living Greyhawk Journal that feature Greyhawk regional feats and PrCs so they can bring them all to the game table every game session to emulate the effect of a 3e Player's Guide to Greyhawk. Why didn't I think of that before?
Thanks Jester, without your solutions, I don't know what I would have done.
Greyhawk players, technically, have all the official updated game information, a luxury almost every game setting DOES NOT. It's the Core rules. All they lack is the fluff which is abundant in the 2E sources.
Everything else, especially the alien settings like Dark Sun or Spelljammer, lacks even that and would be hard pressed to find useable deity, race or class information in the "Complete ___" or "Races of ___" books.
And I'm sure the Dark Sun players are tired of bringing a copy of Sandstorm, some assorted Dragon magazines and their freakin' desktop computer in addition to any 2E references they think they'd need, all of which could be solved by a new hardcopy "Player's Guide to Athas" but that doesn't mean it's likely to happen.
Greyhawk players, technically, have all the official updated game information, a luxury almost every game setting DOES NOT. It's the Core rules. All they lack is the fluff which is abundant in the 2E sources.
Everything else, especially the alien settings like Dark Sun or Spelljammer, lacks even that and would be hard pressed to find useable deity, race or class information in the "Complete ___" or "Races of ___" books.
All of which makes it even easier, more practical, and more valuable for a book that includes content such as "core setting" regional feats.
For the record, Athas.org has official recognition and rights from Wizards of the Coast to produce their own material such as the DS 3.5 PDF, so there is in fact such a resource for players AND DMs. Additionally, there's no point in including content such as Sandstorm, which is a book that can apply to any campaign setting.
Seriously, Jester, I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but your arrogance and snarky posts are extremely condescending. It's one thing to disagree with the notion that a Player's Guide to Greyhawk is needed, but it's another to tell other they are wrong for wanting it.
As for why Eberron - D&D needed a fresh setting, a product to shake things up a bit, maybe appeal to a different audience. It certainly didn't hurt that there wasn't 20-30 years of out of print source material players would need to sift through if they wanted to be canon. A smart move on their part hooking DDO in with the new setting.
What to do with getting new players? That's a much more complicated issue. I can find Bud or Coors in virtually any bar in America. I can find either Coke or Pepsi in probably 99.9% of all restaurants. But aside from a small shelf in the average Borders/Barnes & Noble with some role-playing books, most of them WotCs D&D products (the Bud/Coke of gaming), there are almost no gaming products in these stores. A lot of smaller book stores, used book outlets, etc. don't even carry any game products. In the stores that do, you rarely find RPG books in the same row/area as other common game books like crossword puzzles or sudokus. If you don't have a FLGS or a good comic store near you its quite possible a lot of the games out there you've never seen or heard of. Certainly the average person on the street hasn't. Yes, this stuff is available for purchase online but its not the same as having a book on a store shelf that you can pick up and flip through and say wow that's cool.
Remember in Jaws where the Mayor is talking to chief and he says, "You yell baracuda and people say, huh, what? You yell shark and you have a panic on your hands".
Ask most people if they know what D&D is and a fair amount will know, or will at least have heard of it ("That's the game that turns kids into devil worshippers right?"). Ask most people what GURPS or RIFTS or Exalted or Vampire are and you're going to get blank stares. Wizards and the other game companies out there have to overcome a ton of cultural obscurity to gain new market. And they have to get products where people will see them, flip through them, get curious. They need a combination of advertisement, good product placement, low cost and top production quality. When I bought my AD&D1 Deities & Demigods and Fiend Folio books at age 11-12 I got them for $8 each at Toys R Us. Yes, TRU used to have a game section at the height of D&D's popularity back in the early 80s when the toy line was out there and the cartoon was running on Sat. mornings. But D&D is not in your face today but it needs to be a lot more if they want to get attention.
D&D glassware
D&D aprons
D&D pet toys (doesn't your Labrador need a sqeaky rust monster to play with?)
D&D kid toys (your little kids need one too)
D&D lunch boxes
D&D action figures
D&D window clings for your car
D&D beer
You get the idea. You'd think that with Hasbro owning WotC they'd try to market the D&D brand in some of their other product lines.
As for ads, an earlier post said it well, to paraphrase, it would be great to have some TV commercials of the "few, the proud, the marines" variety showing warriors and wizards fighting monsters and having it come down to showing team work, friendship, etc. with a group playing D&D together.
Who knows, maybe that's all a little over the top but I'd just hate to see such a great hobby vanish because people just didn't know it was out there.
L
As for ads, an earlier post said it well, to paraphrase, it would be great to have some TV commercials of the "few, the proud, the marines" variety showing warriors and wizards fighting monsters and having it come down to showing team work, friendship, etc. with a group playing D&D together.
Yeah, because TV ads worked so well last time ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axxnlcnZbac&search=dungeons%20and%20dragons
It's a tricky situation, especially with how things are right now in the States and the current rise of religious conservatives. I'm not sure I want D&D drawing attention to itself again.
Seriously, Jester, I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but your arrogance and snarky posts are extremely condescending. It's one thing to disagree with the notion that a Player's Guide to Greyhawk is needed, but it's another to tell other they are wrong for wanting it.
Flaming and shooting people down wasn't what I wanted to do.
I'm just saying a new Greyhawk core book, given the old one is now something like six years old, is simply NOT going to happen and trying to get one is a waste of time at best.
I'm new to this board having just gotten into LG, and I came here to find out about the world and setting, or get pointed to a site that could help. And instead all I find is a teeny-tiny FAQ that answers nothing on the theme of the world, its people and places and really only mentioned the phrase "Free City" once, and the people of the board going on and on about new books.
Just irks me to see this wasted effort instead of the fan community rallying to save it and organizing to get what information they can publish out for the fans. WotC isn't going to do squat. The RPGA is doing all they can. Paizo has consistently had Greyhawk content in the magazine for years and years.
But instead people would rather think about the past when the books were being publish and feel vindicated that it was apparently selling well while pointing out all the problems associated with getting online content out to anyone who makes a suggestion.
If sci-fi channel advertises D&D, maybe some more geeks will join the hobby (no offense to fans of the sci-fi channel, but lets keep it real), further implanting in the minds of mainstream humanity the suggestion that you are some kind of lonely loser living in your parent's basement if you play D&D. If the history channel advertises D&D, maybe some of the stigma can be marginally decreased, since history buffs aren't universally regarded as geeks (although, a good many historians are, in fact, geeks). Courage from those who proudly revel in their geekiness might take some of the fun out of ribbing gamers for the mainstream, thereby paving the way for more people to give it a try. Fear of being labeled by the rest of society must surely keep some self-conscious types away. I believe that gaming will never die out, but it is likely to remain akin to a secret society, in which new members must be inducted by invitation. (What all of this has to do with a GH Players Guide may seem obscure at best, and for that I apologize.) ;)
I'm new to this board having just gotten into LG, and I came here to find out about the world and setting, or get pointed to a site that could help. And instead all I find is a teeny-tiny FAQ that answers nothing on the theme of the world, its people and places and really only mentioned the phrase "Free City" once, and the people of the board going on and on about new books.
Just irks me to see this wasted effort instead of the fan community rallying to save it and organizing to get what information they can publish out for the fans. WotC isn't going to do squat. The RPGA is doing all they can. Paizo has consistently had Greyhawk content in the magazine for years and years.
But instead people would rather think about the past when the books were being publish and feel vindicated that it was apparently selling well while pointing out all the problems associated with getting online content out to anyone who makes a suggestion.
Calm down.
You're new to this board, as you yourself pointed out, so you've got to understand a few things.
Many of us 'oldies' of GH rant and dream about new books simply because GH went from star pupil to red-headed child so quickly. Lots of accessories one day, nothing the next. Yes, it's not very productive but that's the way many have behaved for a long while. That kind of attitude doesn't change overnight. Besides, when you've remained faithful to a setting for more than 20 years, you've got a right to act that way :P
GH fans have always been divided over everything but their love of GH. Some stick to the original (EGG) vision. Others to the "CS era". Still others to what I like to call the "Erik Mona era". No doubt, a fair number of us like elements from all three time periods. That said, even though we'll often argue till our faces are blue, in the end we'll always agree to disagree and then get down to the next debate.
That's why there is no 20-pages long FAQ. It took us long enough to agree on this one as it is. Plus, many here are true fonts of knowledge about the setting and will usually answer any (reasonable) query within a few days.
The problem is that neither the RPGA, nor Dragon/Dungeon (with apologies to Erik and his crew) are as credible, canon-wise, as a honest-to-god D&D accessory with a World of Greyhawk logo branded in big gold letters across its cover. Certainly not the RPGA, and that's coming from someone who has been a member for years but who isn't blind to what's happening to the setting they were entrusted with. Better than nothing? You bet. Better than the "real" deal? No.
That's why people coming here with ideas to get our "own" material published (if only as free e-content) aren't exactly received with open arms.
First, there is the persistent rumor that GH material isn't being published due to copyright. In short, many think that WotC has to pay Gary every time GH sees print.
Second, many assume - and not unreasonably so, I might add - that any "new" GH material published - even by fans of such quality as Grodog, Woesinger, or Erik Mona - will still be shot down by outraged folks the minute they read even a single word contradicting canon material (even if said word was an improvement upon the original design).
Third, despite what you may think, many GH veterans are doing their part to keep GH alive and not just by providing updated listing of 1e accessories.
A few examples?
The fiction written by Jason "Encyclopedia" Zavoda (do yourself a favor and read his Nosnra's Saga on Harvester's Heroes).
CanonFire, arguably the best source of fan material for GH.
Erik Mona and his Dungeon/Dragon mag. crusade to bring new and updated material to us fans.
Grodog, always striving for consistency, and his website. One of the top best of the GH webring.
I agree that when one looks at, say, the Known World/Mystara board with Thorf's incredible maps and the dozen projects of development of low-key areas, it's easy to become disheartened by the lack of such on our board. Heck, if the Dark Sun fans can put together a 3.5 DS Guide and semi-official adventures with WotC's blessing, why can't we?
Simply put, because their situation isn't the same.
Their world doesn't come with the EGG tag and a 20+ years history.
WotC never had a cause not to like them, nor will it ever lose money because of them.
Last but not least, their world was never presented as the "core" setting for the 3.X rules (I bet some WotC guys would give anything to take that one back).
So, be patient with us and try to understand why we're that way. Coming here and "kicking the ant hill" (so to speak) isn't going to help.
Peace
Playing D&D marks the gamer as an unabashed geek
Who else remembers the TV commercial where the geek and the supermodel get together (I think it was an appliance commercial, not sure now), and he gives her a copy of the Player's Handbook as a gift?
So, yeah, RPG commercials would be a tricky thing to pull off.
As an aside, VH1 had the "I love toys" thing on last night. Dungeons and Dragons was number 89.
Found the synopsis with Google:
"After a freak jousting accident at a Medieval Times restaurant, SpongeBob and Patrick are transported to a medieval version of Bikini Bottom. The two are mistaken for great knights, and soon they are entrusted with the quest of saving King Krabs' daughter, Princess Pearl, from the clutches of the evil wizard Lord Planktonamor. To keep them company, the King sends along Squidly, the court jester (who was recently thrown in the dungeon for not being funny). "
You know you are part of the 'in' crowd when your hobby is parodied in Spongebob. :P
every "D&D" supplement is a Grayhawk supplement. They are designed to support "Generic" D&D, which is what Grayhawk is now--even FR has key differences from the 'generic' books, specifically the cosmologies, although they do overlap at points.
The LGG is pure fluff, and nothing more. It's designed to give you a setting, which is crunched out by the plethora of standard books, which a DM may or may not (depending on his choice) introduce into a game. The FR stuff is a lot harder for a DM to refuse to introduce--it says FR on it, right?
When 4e comes along, WotC will probably come out with a new LGG, one which advances the timeline, perhaps by a decade or so.
And, IIRC, that limited connection between GH and Core doesn't even exist any more. Producing 4th edition certainly won't spur another LGG on its own.
I was under the impression that Eberreon was not the default setting/
Not for the 3e Era. It just that all this stealth marketing (mixing GH with core product material) doesn't leave a significant impression to the fans that the setting is being supported by WotC. At least not significant enough.
The default setting have to be common D&D. So, it's GH, FR or DL-like. Them or something similar. And Eberron is another of those more divergent settings.
If Eberron was created, it's maybe to have something more adapted, fitting the newest set of rules. Like Mystara was 0D&D, the Big three AD&D and all.
The problem is also the GH grognards and 'true fans', who have often very high demand for new products, and an HUGE emphasis on canon. Witness the arguments with the Greyhawk Wars, the Gygax worshipeprs, and all.
You blame TSR/WOTC for never putting new products, but I am not sure some of those guys want to face angry Greyhawk otaku if they 'did it wrong' or 'dessecrated Greyhawk'.
Sorry to be frank, but that's often the feels that some GH fans give.
Eberron is not the default setting of D&D - the default setting have to be, well, very default. Vanilla D&D. That's the point many can't see.
D&D 4e could evolve, and the default baseline could be raised. We may see some of Eberron's mechanics in the standard rules. For example, action points (though it appeared earlier, Eberron is the first D&D campaign setting to integrate action point rules).
It was mentioned above that one can download all the past RPGA Adventures for LG. Is that a link anyone can do? And IF so, where can I find it.
If that link exists, it's illegal. Past RPGA adventures are NOT available for free anywhere.. for now. That situation may change at some point, however (but I wouldn't keep my fingers crossed if I were you).
If that link exists, it's illegal. Past RPGA adventures are NOT available for free anywhere.. for now. That situation may change at some point, however (but I wouldn't keep my fingers crossed if I were you).
Poooo.
I wrote three adventures. 2 regionals, 1 meta-regional, and I no longer have them for 'nostalgia's sake'
Oh well
D&D 4e could evolve, and the default baseline could be raised. We may see some of Eberron's mechanics in the standard rules. For example, action points (though it appeared earlier, Eberron is the first D&D campaign setting to integrate action point rules).
If there is a D&D 4E it might dump the "default world" idea and release rule books that are 100% generic. A single ruleset with just the mechanics, much like the SRD. Possibly intermixing modern with fantasy in a single system.
That way to get some of the fantasy specific information you need another book.
If there is a D&D 4E it might dump the "default world" idea and release rule books that are 100% generic.
I kind of doubt that. I mean, you just described the SRD, with character creation rules.
I sort of find this whole "implied setting" business frustrating. It only makes sense to me that if you're going to have a default setting at all, you should at least put out a campaign setting supplement.
I'm guessing Eberron will be the implied setting for 4e, what with all the shiny new things it brings to the game. Hopefully they'll adjust the rules accordingly, as there are many spots where flavor-wise (and somehow even mechanically) Eberron diverges from the current set.
If there is a D&D 4E it might dump the "default world" idea and release rule books that are 100% generic.
BLAND!!!Might as well have Ben Stein do an audiobook of the Player's Handbook v.4.0 while we're at it.
If there is a D&D 4E it might dump the "default world" idea and release rule books that are 100% generic.
Isn't "Greyhawk" generic enough? I mean, it's pretty much supposed to be standard fantasy fare. "Dragonlance" had the romantic saga storyline going for it, the "Forgotten Realms", has evolved into a high-level "epic" setting, and "Eberron" has a high-magic, pulp-fantasy-adventure flavor to it. Greyhawk is... well, plain vanilla D&D, which is what it was always meant to be.
I fail to see why it would make such a big difference to a "Forgotten Realms" player whether a generic adventure is set in the city of Chendl in the Kingdom of Furyondy or in the city of in Neither exist in the "official" Faerun, but both can be adapted just as easily.
The simplest thing would be to give us GH fans a Campaign setting book.
Totally , 100 % agree with this
Isn't "Greyhawk" generic enough? I mean, it's pretty much supposed to be standard fantasy fare. "Dragonlance" had the romantic saga storyline going for it, the "Forgotten Realms", has evolved into a high-level "epic" setting, and "Eberron" has a high-magic, pulp-fantasy-adventure flavor to it. Greyhawk is... well, plain vanilla D&D, which is what it was always meant to be.
I fail to see why it would make such a big difference to a "Forgotten Realms" player whether a generic adventure is set in the city of Chendl in the Kingdom of Furyondy or in the city of in Neither exist in the "official" Faerun, but both can be adapted just as easily.
When I say generic I mean NO fluff, or just the bare necessity to convey the rules and give examples. It'd be bland but how much flavor is in the PHB anyway? It's a rule book, let it be one w/o trying to act as a half-assed Campaign Setting offering examples of how gnomes live and relate to other races.
Who uses the 3E PHB as a guide to how the races act and live anyway? I don't remember seeing to may roving caravans of halflings in Greyhawk.
Just saying that 4E might dump Greyhawk and any world-specific information (ie culture of races, names, gods, spells w/ names, etc) and stay as more of a ruleset then let the campaign setting books fill in the rest. In this case it'd be Eberron possibly with the Realms but they might retire it by then.
And Forgotten Realms IS generic fantasy, as generic as Greyhawk. While the Realms may have a more high-power slant it isn't mandatory and you can still run alot of low powered games there. It's about as vanilla as it gets.
Well, as I said, Eberron would NOT be the default setting, for sure. jUST TO spare the grognards and the inane 'D20 Fantasy!' calls.
Note - really, Forgotten Realms's 'power creep" is exagerated. I played a lot of low level games, its like Greyhawk I bet.
How you play it is still up to the DM and players, so you can play any game world at a high or low power. Both settings have issues of power creep, but its much worse in the FR. Likely because there's a lot more published for it and by a wider range of authors. GH also has a nostalgia factor, since its not especially developed under 3rd edition, which is a more power hungry rules set than the old 1e stuff.
However, just going through the FRCS will show its a higher power setting. There are just more high level NPCs in the FR. There's not really more magical items in the hands of PCs (or NPCs), but you don't find minor cities in the Flanaess boasting half a dozen archmages or have nearly as many epic type NPCs. In fact, that's pretty much the crux of it: there are a heck of a lot more mages (and more powerful ones) than in GH material. The novels also portray more "epic" type events: gods walking the earth, shades invading, etc.
Of course, none of that matters in your DM's campaign if he doesn't want it to.
However, just going through the FRCS will show its a higher power setting. There are just more high level NPCs in the FR. There's not really more magical items in the hands of PCs (or NPCs), but you don't find minor cities in the Flanaess boasting half a dozen archmages or have nearly as many epic type NPCs. In fact, that's pretty much the crux of it: there are a heck of a lot more mages (and more powerful ones) than in GH material. The novels also portray more "epic" type events: gods walking the earth, shades invading, etc.
Well, all the major NPCs in Greyhawk are high-powered. More than a half-dozen mortals have become gods which is twice that of the Realms.
And while I can only think of four or five big mages in FR, Greyhawk has the entire Circle of Eight plus Rary plus Zagyg.
Epic and high level are also very different. I could argue that the last couple Greyhawk campaign settings were rather epic but instead I will point to Dragonlance which is the epic setting to end all settings and is both lower magic and lower level save one evil wizard.
I will say it again, just give us a Greyhawk Campaign setting book.
Why?
Well, all the major NPCs in Greyhawk are high-powered. More than a half-dozen mortals have become gods which is twice that of the Realms.
And while I can only think of four or five big mages in FR, Greyhawk has the entire Circle of Eight plus Rary plus Zagyg.
Elminster
Khelben
Larloch
Manshoon 1
Manshoon 2
Manshoon 3
The guy under Undermountain
Szass Tam
The Simbul
Khelben's Wife (what's her name again...)
Each of these are level 20+ and that's just off the top of my head, not having read anything FR related for at least four years.
I will say it again, just give us a Greyhawk Campaign setting book.
I'll say it again too:
Since 2001 and the launch of D&D 3rd edition:
- The Dungeons & Dragons Gazetteer
- The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer
- Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil
- (Via the RPGA) 6 stand alone issues of Living Greyhawk Journal
- (Via Paizo, yes folks, WotC has to approve everything Paizo puts in the magazines) Constant Greyhawk material in the last 30 or 40 Issues of Dungeon and Dragon magazines
- (Via Atari) Temple of Elemental Evil CRPG
- Greyhawk content, to some degree or another, in every core (read: non-FR or Eberron) book they've put out.
- The RPGA Living Greyhawk campaign, the biggest and most successful, not to mention popular, operation of its kind
- (Via the RPGA section of the WotC website) Monthly "Mysterious Places" and "Power Groups" web articles
- Explicitly Greyhawk themed special D&D minis
Just because some of don't like everything on that list doesn't mean WotC hasn't done it. Compared to any other setting aside from FR and Eberrun, WotC has done a lot more for Greyhawk. Farming RL and DL out to D20 licensees doesn't count, we're talking about work WotC and their proxies, Paizo and the RPGA, has done.
In other words, it isn't likely gonna happen.
Elminster
Khelben
Larloch
Manshoon 1
Manshoon 2
Manshoon 3
The guy under Undermountain
Szass Tam
The Simbul
Khelben's Wife (what's her name again...)
Each of these are level 20+ and that's just off the top of my head, not having read anything FR related for at least four years.
I don't think you can count Manshoon three times.
And there are also many, many, many more low-level and weak characters and a long list of characters who are now powerful and high level but started out low-powered newbies.
Greyhawk doesn't have as many famous characters who aren't in their high teens and/or wizards. A tally of big-name Hawkers is:
Mordenkein
Rary
Robilar *
Otiluk
Tenser
Evard
Melf
Nystul
Tasha
Drawmij
Bigby
Zagyg #
Iuz *#
Vecna #
Kas *
Gord*
Those marked with a * are not wizards and those marked with a # are gods (ie became gods). For those keeping score 11/15 are wizards.
Of all of them only Gord is not really high level.
He apparently saved the world no less than twice, saved the entire Multiverse, entered the Abyss and tried to slay a god (Tharizdun).
Has Drizzit ever saved the world... let alone the multiverse?
No one is saying Greyhawk is low magic. Low magic is Harn. But its very easy to make a much longer list of high powered wizards from the FR. And most of the named ones would blow away any of the GH wizards except the latest version of Mordenkainen (and Zagyg, if you count him).
And if you want to talk about mortals turning into gods, the FR is certainly no slouch at that. The Third Mystra (and maybe the second, not sure), Iyachtu Xvim, Myrkul, Bhaal, Bane, Cyric, Velsharoon, and Kelemvor are all mortals turned gods. And lots more important than any of the GH mortals turned divine, all of whom are pretty marginal (Zagyg is Boccob's sidekick, Gord isn't TSR/WotC canon, Iuz is a demi god. Zuoken's another god's sidekick. So is Mayaheine. Only Vecna is more than a demi power and only he and Iuz are fully independent of a bigger god.
Has Drizzit ever saved the world... let alone the multiverse?
I think a more accurate question would be "has Elminister?". Anyway, Gord was always a divinity. Or whatever you call the entities like the Catlord and that ilk. Both his parents were Lords of the Catlord's realm, not humans.
I don't think you can count Manshoon three times.
You can if he has clones.
Well, the only version of Tasha I've seen is only 9th lvl, but there may be some other version of her in a Dragon magazine or something I've missed. And arguing about the existance of low level characters is kind of tricky, since GH simply doesn't have 500 novels and 3000 sourcebooks for it to detail all the low end characters.
No one is saying Greyhawk is low magic. Low magic is Harn. But its very easy to make a much longer list of high powered wizards from the FR. And most of the named ones would blow away any of the GH wizards except the latest version of Mordenkainen (and Zagyg, if you count him).
And if you want to talk about mortals turning into gods, the FR is certainly no slouch at that. The Third Mystra (and maybe the second, not sure), Iyachtu Xvim, Myrkul, Bhaal, Bane, Cyric, Velsharoon, and Kelemvor are all mortals turned gods. And lots more important than any of the GH mortals turned divine, all of whom are pretty marginal (Zagyg is Boccob's sidekick, Gord isn't TSR/WotC canon, Iuz is a demi god. Zuoken's another god's sidekick. So is Mayaheine. Only Vecna is more than a demi power and only he and Iuz are fully independent of a bigger god.
8 mortals turned gods in the Realms.
Greyhawk only has:
Al'Akbar, Nazarn, Rudd, Vecna, Zagyg, Mayaheine, Kyuss, Roykyn, Tsolorandril, Charmalaine, Daern, Johydee, Kuroth, St. Cuthbert, Azor'alq and Keoghtom.
Probably more but that's all I have the patience to find at this time.
Btw, I don't think Tsolorandril was ever human or from Oerth. Its just an entity that associated with an Oerth god. Mayaheine is a god of Oerth, but not apparently from Oerth. And there is no definitive answer one way or the other on St. Cuthbert's antecedents. He may have been human at one point, somewhere in the multiverse. Or he may not have.
I do think its a shame that no one could apparently come up with anything better to do with all these one shot names scattered around in GH lore than turn them into trivial dieties.
Monty Haul is a playstyle, though, not a campaign world feature. It seems to me that you are generally conflating the campaign world with game play style. You can use either campaign for anything from ultra low magic to ultra high level epic play. Its only a matter of how much you need to add or subtract as the DM. The FR, though, has a higher level of background power if you stay faithful to the supplements (not something I recommend any DM worry about, but a lot do).
Btw, I'm not aware of any examples of PCs actually becoming gods in game play history of the WoG. A few of the early 'quasi deities' were homage characters referencing friends of EGG. But almost all of the later additions are either created from a one off name drop in an item description or out of whole cloth.
And I'm quite certain no "player" has become a god from participating in WoG game play. :D
Heh. That's a little easier.
To have a new core setting to replace GH.
Of course that still begs the question of why they'd create such a divergent setting, but . . .
I can answer that one. They wanted to create a "steampunk" type setting that was edgier and appealed more to a younger crowd. Hence the whole dragonmark tattoo gimmick. etc ad nausium
I can answer that one. They wanted to create a "steampunk" type setting that was edgier and appealed more to a younger crowd. Hence the whole dragonmark tattoo gimmick. etc ad nausium
It's not really what the young ones want. I say, more the newer, mature generation of fantasy, like that Maiville (spelling guy?), less Tolkienesque 'merry past', less white and black and more grey, etc....