My favorite character out of all of them is Tanis. I seem to be the only person who likes him best, even though he was effectively the main character of the books for a good time.
My favorite character out of all of them is Tanis. I seem to be the only person who likes him best, even though he was effectively the main character of the books for a good time.
No, you're not the only one. Tanis is my favorite character in the books, and Jamie Chambers (VP of Sovereign Press and famous writer/game designer) is also very fond of him.
Cheers,
Cam
And as an aside, Tanis is probably my second favorite character, and he is my Mom's favorite character (yes, my mother reads Dragonlance).
Most of the Raist fanboys are on a "rules don't apply to me" jag, with serious sidelobes of power abuse, crushing someone if they want to, general cruelty and other hallmarks of the juvenile mind on an ego trip.
Naturally, having been a high school teacher, I loathe this.
Oggie
They think Sturm was boring, dull, a killjoy, arrogant, cold and mean to Raistlin.
Mean to Raistlin? Hell, he wasn't mean enough to Raistlin, the whiny little bugger. ;)
Anyway. Sturm was, from a certain point of view, all of those things, but that's what the Knighthood needed at the Battle of the High Clerist Tower. When the Knighthood needed it most, the universe consipred to provide a perfect knight for the first time since Huma.
And that, I think, is interesting. It's not him so much as what he represented.
They think Sturm was boring, dull, a killjoy, arrogant, cold and mean to Raistlin.
But he was also valiant, chivalrous, selfless, loyal, trustworthy, and kind hearted.
I think some people don't like Sturm because they see in him what they could be but know they aren't. People don't like to be reminded of their short comings, even though Sturm would not be one to throw it in your face, I don't think (that's what made him different from the other knights of the time).
The reason he was so mean to Raistlin is because he did not trust him. He believed that Raistlin did not have their best interests at heart, and Sturm was protective of his friends and companions...which meant protecting them from Raistlin as well. But you'll note that by the time they separated, Sturm had finally given Raistlin some begrudging respect. He spite for Raistlin was not unfounded, but Sturm was also willing to admit he may have been wrong about people (unfortunately, ultimately, he was not wrong about Raistlin).
... Sturm/Raistlin thing seems to hinge on one thing. Having a code. Most of the folks who've liked Sturm have pointed out that he's living for something greater than himself and acts like it. You can see him stepping forward into dragonsbreath to protect someone else, for instance. He has a very strict yet simple set of guidelines that he uses...
Oggie
Just last week I re-read Winter night, and cried when Sturm died, just as I did the frist time over a decade ago. Though I must admit he is only my 3rd favorite charater. While Sturm lived to meet his code, Tanis was that code. Tanis lived they type of life Sturm dreamed of when it came to personal honor, and Tanis is my 2nd. I might be one of a minority here, but my favorite was Riverwind. He lived not only with a personal code, but was willing to sacerfice almost everything for what he believed in, and was a very simple to understand man. He is not one who would pick on the weak, he learned to except his own limitations, and learned to look past predjudice and judge people for who they truly are.
He is my favorite.
While I use Raist's pic for my avitar, I think he shows how to run a Cn who is ony in it for himself, and has a sense of "Dark Power" about him. Good for scaring PC's.
While I use Raist's pic for my avitar, I think he shows how to run a Cn who is ony in it for himself, and has a sense of "Dark Power" about him. Good for scaring PC's.
Good one, ArchAngelDM. :D
Sturm, I think is the darkside that all good people try to hide. He is lost throughout the first book, and through some of the second, but when he does find his true core, it is filled to the brim with a true and pure soul. And he uses that goodness, despite his previous failing faith in the knighthood to redeem, not himself, but the entirety of the knights before they are so lost that evil wins. I hate that he died, but fully understand that he had to, or nothing that the elves, knights, or heroes of the lance could have ever done afterwards would have mattered in the war.
Dalamar is just cool. . .
Raistlin was well done, but I agree that his fame makes me not like him as much. He has managed to accomplish more than any other D&D character could ever truely hope to, and the only thing I think he needs to do now is murder Eleminister in his full power.
Gilthanas...was never given much credit for all he accomplished.
I have to agree with Cgarsmokr, Gilthanas played a major role in the return of the Good Dragons, he helped defeat a Dragon HighLord, defended a city against a floating castle, and it was hinted that he helped with the rebuilding of at least one Elven nation. I personaly feel he should get a novel to himself.
Most of the Raist fanboys are on a "rules don't apply to me" jag, with serious sidelobes of power abuse, crushing someone if they want to, general cruelty and other hallmarks of the juvenile mind on an ego trip.
Naturally, having been a high school teacher, I loathe this.
Oggie
Wow seems a bit much and judgemental don't you think? I'd say you're over simplifying things, and probably incorrectly as well. Yes Raistlin was a powerful character with the "rules don't apply to me" attitude. And yes, he was willing to hurt anyone who impeded his goals, but then if that those are the reason these "juveniles" like him, then Takhisis would be a much better idol. The reason for Raistlin's popularity is that he was a very complicated, well fleshed out character that many people could relate too. Like any human being, he had his flaws and his talents, and these characteristics made him seem real.
Life was hard for Raistlin; He was given a weak body, was constantly bullied, and had few friends. He lost his mother and father at an early age and came from a relatively poor family. Yet despite all these handicaps and trials, Raistlin perservered; he sustained himself by working and studying at the same time, past his Test, and became a formidable mage at a very young age.
As a child, Raistlin watched as his mother waste away on her bed, unable to wake from her trance-like state. This moment of helplessness contributed to his desire to obtain power; to not be helpless. Many of us have faced situations in which we felt powerless and desperately wished that there was something we could do to change our lives for the better; we can sympathize with Raistlin and his plight. That he had the determination and drive to strive for his goals, and reach them is worthy of respect.
Unlike a lot of characters who are made powerful from the onset of their story and who seem invincible, Raistlin toiled and worked diligently to reach his status. The reader gets the priviledge to see him suffer and grow. The reader witness the sacrifices that were made for his power; his health, friendship, and love. From humble beginning to powerful archmage, the transition gives hope to those who begin less fortunate of a better future. It reaffirms the belief that it is what we do with life and not what life gives us that matters.
In that respect, he seems much more deserving of his power and much more believable. That he is still vulnerable at times,subjected to being afraid and jealous, also makes him that much more human.
Im running out of time and out of breath so I'll change the tone to here to be less essayish and just say that although Raistlin was very self centered and egotistical, he was also had a lot of characteristics that is admirable. He was very driven, intelligent, and self controlled. At times he showed a great deal of compassion (like his dealings with the Bupu). Raistlin was certainly no saint, but he certainly accomplished a great deal and had many traits that should not just be dismissed as being fit only for juvenile delinquents. For many of us, its these other characteristics, his suffering, and ultimately his triumph that we admire.
One last thing that I want to note is my curiosity of people mentioning their dislike for Raistlin because of his popularity. To me THAT seems like more of a juvenile response. It is need to distinguish oneself to be to be "cool" instead of being yourself. Anyways just my two cents.
Like cgarsmokr I also would love to know what happened with Gilthanas and Silvara. Later books eluded to some tragic history but never filled in any blanks.
Spoiler space
Take a look at the second of the Age of Mortals trilogy of adventures, Spectre of Sorrows. It sheds some light on Gilthanas.
Spoiler space
Take a look at the second of the Age of Mortals trilogy of adventures, Spectre of Sorrows. It sheds some light on Gilthanas.
Price of Courage will shed even more light on both Gilthanas and Silvara.
Cheers,
Cam
To touch on Rivewind... Riverwind was what they wanted to be. Tanis didnt have his women, Raist didn't have the power he true sought after, Sturm wasn't officially the Knight he wanted to be. Riverwind had what was truest to his heart, to his soul.(goldmoon).
Sturm was my second favorite he was what a knight should be! He lived by what he believed in, he defended his friends, even when he thought he should defend one brother against another. I bawled like a baby at the end of Winter Night.
I remember looking at my then boyfriend and yelling at him "You could have warned me! You could have told me!" and throwing the book at him. (he later states that how he knew I was the woman for him. We are now married with 4 children) Sturm only one time did something he felt immoral and that was his tryst with Kitiara. He was, after all, only human. And Kit, lets face it, was a b!tch.
I was bored, so i bought Dragons of a Summer Flame in a Wal-Mart. Then my life, quite literally, changed forever. Dnd, Forgotten REalms, Greyhawk, it just swpet over me.
Back to Sturm, i was sort of prepared once i got around to reading the Chronicles, but it still shocked me. I did not cry, but I was stunned. Unfortunately, I had bought the Annotated (sp?) Chronicles, so it was kind of predicated by the end, but i was all like "HOW COULD THEY KILL HIM OFF?!?!?"
Yeah, that was my first ever main character, selff-sacrifice tale.
And on the note of the shattered sun, that is a very powerful expression. I wouldn't personally express it as a shattered sun though. i mean, Sturm died the way he wanted. Saving the knights etc. etc.
Although Raist was my favorite character in the original series. I have to admit that Sturm had his own moments to shine, and the loss of his life is pretty much what the book is about.
I have to note that I never thought that Palin was a very good character. He always seemed to cry and complain and that at the end of Summer Flame he ends up being the greatest mage of all time.... My ass. Oh and given the chance to regain his life... he gives it up to become Mayor of Solace. Whoot Whoot. Oh and then they take a great character in the making like Ulin and they screw him too. Whats happening to the Majere family. *sigh*
Oggie
Second, it's not in Legends of the Twins. It's in Spectre of Sorrows. (please add spoiler space and mark it correctly as a Spectre of Sorrows spoiler)
Thanks!
"Sturm's Sun Shattered" is the all time greatest line in the entire series. I think that sturm's arc was exactly as long as it needed to be, and ended in exactly the right place to act as the catalyst for laurana to become who she was. it's perfect as is.
Not only did Sturm's death spur up Laurana, but it was also the one thing the Solamnic Knighthood needed to take a decisive and unified stand against the advancing Dragonarmies. Sturm's sacrifice was the single, most important act during the entire War of the Lance/Fourth Dragon War that epitomized what it meant to be a Knight of Solamnia, unlike Crownguard and MarKenin's final charge, which only served to demonstrate the failings of a Measure not tempered by wisdom. Without Sturm's death, it is very likely that the Dragonarmies would've defeated the Whitestone Alliance (as is the case in one of the alternate timelines described in Legends of the Twins).
Personally, I think Flint's my favorite but Sturm is up there. I've noticed over the years at game tables, GenCon and on the Net that the Sturm/Raistlin thing seems to hinge on one thing. Having a code. Most of the folks who've liked Sturm have pointed out that he's living for something greater than himself and acts like it. You can see him stepping forward into dragonsbreath to protect someone else, for instance. He has a very strict yet simple set of guidelines that he uses, and fans seem to love it.
Most of the Raist fanboys are on a "rules don't apply to me" jag, with serious sidelobes of power abuse, crushing someone if they want to, general cruelty and other hallmarks of the juvenile mind on an ego trip.
Naturally, having been a high school teacher, I loathe this.
Oggie
They obviously don't understand Raistlin. At all.
Sturm is my fave character, followed closely by Raistlin. Really, they're more flip-sides of the same coin than are Sturm and Steel.
Hell, even Raistlin said he admired Sturm for living according to a code that didn't even apply to him for most of his life.
They obviously don't understand Raistlin. At all.
Sturm is my fave character, followed closely by Raistlin. Really, they're more flip-sides of the same coin than are Sturm and Steel.
Hell, even Raistlin said he admired Sturm for living according to a code that didn't even apply to him for most of his life.
Let's see: Steel's a knight like his dad, but his dark nature came from his mother. Steel and Sturm are the opposite sides of the same coin, one's a Knight of Solamina and the other's a Knight of Takhisis.
Second, it's not in Legends of the Twins. It's in Spectre of Sorrows. (please add spoiler space and mark it correctly as a Spectre of Sorrows spoiler)
Correction: the part about Gilthanas is - indeed - from Spectre of Sorrows but the rest is drawn from the "Dragonlands" alternate timeline in the Legends of the Twins accessory.
I think he is mixing the two.
As for Sturm, I loved him. I nearly cried when he died. He was one of the few companions to have actually died honorably ( unlike TAnis who was stabbed in the back, or Flint who had a heart attack). Sure, his absolute adherence to Est Soaris Uth Mithas was pretty annoying at times, it was also encouraging to know that something remained constant. Also, Sturm would have died to protect Raistlin and everyone knows it.
As for Sturm, I loved him. I nearly cried when he died. He was one of the few companions to have actually died honorably ( unlike TAnis who was stabbed in the back, or Flint who had a heart attack).
Well, there was Riverwind's death helping the kender of Goodlund to flee from Malystryx. That's pretty honorable.
Laurana's death was truly noble. Personally, I thought it was the best death written in the whole of Dragonlance.
With Goldmoon's dying breath she called out to the lost gods, and Mishakal heard her. That's pretty honorable.
Tas died stabbing Chaos, so that's noble, too.
Raistlin's death, although the circumstances that brought him to it were less than honorable, his sacrifice was honorable.
I think all in all, the HotL have made out with more "good" deaths than they have bad ones.
And as for Tika and Caramon...there's nothing wrong with dying from natural causes.
Well, there was Riverwind's death helping the kender of Goodlund to flee from Malystryx. That's pretty honorable.
Laurana's death was truly noble. Personally, I thought it was the best death written in the whole of Dragonlance.
With Goldmoon's dying breath she called out to the lost gods, and Mishakal heard her. That's pretty honorable.
Tas died stabbing Chaos, so that's noble, too.
Raistlin's death, although the circumstances that brought him to it were less than honorable, his sacrifice was honorable.
I think all in all, the HotL have made out with more "good" deaths than they have bad ones.
And as for Tika and Caramon...there's nothing wrong with dying from natural causes.
Yeah i guess ur right. I didn't really think about it long enough.
Yeah i guess ur right. I didn't really think about it long enough.
Well, this just makes Tanis's death that much more hardcore.
I think the thing that really makes the chronicles is the characterization; lets face it, there is a depth to all of the characters present.
I think the thing that really makes the chronicles is the characterization; lets face it, there is a depth to all of the characters present.
I would disagree with respect to the Chronicles on this. At least, in comparison to the Legends. It's sort of like having more players at a game. It's difficult to explore in depth all the PCs when there are more of them. The Chronicles had a truckload of important characters to explore, but they didn't get as much depth as the protagonists/antagonists of the Legends did.
Some later novels helped remedy this, IMHO. For example, while Tanis had some depth in the Chronicles, I think he really shone moreso in the Second Generation and in Dragons of Summer Flame. How Laurana got involved in the War of the Lance shows some depth of character, but her moments of glory were in the War of Souls, acting as Queen-Mother and negotiating with (the oh-so cool!) Marshal Medan.
Her moments of glory were in the War of Souls, acting as Queen-Mother and negotiating with (the oh-so cool!) Marshal Medan.
Marshal Medan was one of my favorites in War of Souls.