The two sides I've seen have been that Kalak wasn't a champion, or somehow fell out of favor with Borys and the other camp that Hamanu is puting forth disinformation. Both camps are wrong. The statement is completely out of context the eight paragraphs surrounding the statement.
It begins with Hamanu recollecting the recent events of Rajaats return and imprisonment. p.33
Followed by: It had been different long ago,in the year of Enemy's Fury in the 177th K.A. After Borys first set the wards of Rajaat Hollow, there'd been a score of immortal sorcerers ruling there proud heartland cities. With the passage of thirteen ages, they'd winnowed themselves down to seven. Then a decade ago, Kalak, the Tyrant of Tyr, had been brought down by his own ambition and a handful of mortal rebels, including one of his own high templars and Sadira, the same Sadira who'd vanquished Borys reset the wards around Rajaat's Hollow.
Then: In the Lion King's judgement, Kalak was a fool, a careless fool who deserved the crime against him. Kalak was no champion. Hamanu had, perhaps, trusted the Tyrant of Tyr more than he trusted his peers, but he'd respected him less. He cursed Kalak's name each time it resurrected itself in his memory. Kalak's demise had left an unfillable hole in Tyr, the oldest - if not the largest, wealthiest, or most powerful - city in the heartland. And now, thanks in no small part to the subsequent behavior of the rebels who'd killed their immortal sorcerer-king, the thrones of Balic, Raam, and Drag were vacant, too.
This really is Hamanu's point of view on recent events, but it does also reveal something deeper... The book has up to this point gone to say that Hamanu see's himself as a champion of Urik, and that he would do anything to save it. It goes on in the next few paragraphs to state that the one thing keeping the monarchs in check is that use too much magic, etc. etc. and become the next Dragon. p.34 paragraphs 4 &5.
The following paragraph follows: The prospect might have tempted some of them - though never Hamanu - if they hadn't all watched helplessly as a maddened, mindless, Borys ravaged the heartland immediately after they cast the spells to complete his metamorphosis. For the first hundred years, whereever Borys went, he sucked the life out of everything. When he was done, the heartland was the parched, blasted barren place it remained to this day.
So, not only did the champions revolt against Rajaat to save whats left of there world, they were essentially horrified of the destruction wraught by Borys. Which is why the book goes on to explain why the set upon Dregoth.
A few paragraphs later, Hamanu goes on to say that: Kalak hadn't hesitated at the though of consuming Tyr. That's what got him killed by his own subject citizens and temlars, but Kalak of Tyr had been a fool and a freebooter from the start, long before the champions were created. p. 35 paragraph 4.
This shows that Kalak was indeed a champion, though one Hamanu personally thought of as a fool, as he did Myron before him. It also goes to show that Kalak's ambition is the catalyst for the current affairs of the heartland, and that if he was successful with his attempt, he would have ravaged the region to the possible point of making it uninhabitable. This would definetly not sit well with any of the champions.
Finally, I think Hamanu couldn't view Kalak as a champion because Kalak was attempting to consume his own people in his quest for power, something Hamanu would never consider. Hamanu may be evil and twisted, but has a sense of honor.
They are attempting to marry the discripencies between that novel and everything else, and so come up with whatever argument that they prefer and which allows Hamanu to say those things without them being true: disinformation, missinformation on his part, stupidity, ...
The people upholding those opinions of Hamanu and the novel are not blind, but rather are intentionnaly modifying the novel so it can be inlcuded wholesale in the rest of the setting. That's it. There's no dishonorable intent behind it.
Hope this helps
This shows that Kalak was indeed a champion, though one Hamanu personally thought of as a fool, as he did Myron before him. It also goes to show that Kalak's ambition is the catalyst for the current affairs of the heartland, and that if he was successful with his attempt, he would have ravaged the region to the possible point of making it uninhabitable. This would definetly not sit well with any of the champions.
Sorry Netherek but Hamanu was indeed being literal when he said Kalak was no Champion. You quote it yourself in the previous paragraph: Kalak was a powerful sorcerer, already immortal, before Rajaat created his Champions. Only Rajaat can create Champions, thus Kalak was no Champion. He only has the number and title of one. Kalak was, literally, a wizard 20+/psion 20+ character with an ingredient added (probably an epic spell he designed and cast) which rendered him immortal.
Abbey clearly defines what is meant by a Champion, and that includes Rajaat making you a dragon, giving you some obscure powers and your flesh some obscure proprerties, and linking you to the Dark Lens. She clearly states that mortals can become dragons on their own too, but unless they also step under the steeple of crystals and Dark Lens they cannot hope to match the power of one of Rajaat's Champions.
Abbey also says Kalak never stepped beneath the steeple of crystals, in case you were wondering.
in our actual example we have Kalak (i think he was accreditated to be the second champion, tasked to exterminate ogres), both prism pentad and core 2° edition materials suggest He is one of the Champions, wile only Lynn Abbey states the contrary (em I correct?)
if the good guys of Athas.org have an official position I'd like to know it....
One could be deduced by the champion template introduction:
Thousands of years ago, the First Sorcerer of Athas, a twisted pyreen known as Rajaat, brought his fifteen greatest students together at the Pristine Tower. With the power of that ancient place and an artifact known as the Dark Lens, Rajaat channeled the very energies of the sun itself and transformed these students into immortal beings of terrible power: his Champions.
if the Cahmpion were 15 and Kalak was not one of them (as, apparently, Pennarin suggests) who was championeed in his place?
Kalak's templars receive their spells from Kalak...who syphons the power from Sacha and Wyan, the reason why he keeps those guys around.
Your comment on Dregoth is my fault: when I said Kalak was already immortal before the Champions was created did not have any relevance to him not being a Champion.
Dregoth was immortal before the other Champions were created as well, as mentionned in Rise and Fall and in City by the Silt Sea, but he got in the band wagon with the others when Championhood was offered. Kalak didn't, or wasn't offered it.
As to syphoning power from Sacha and Wayan... They were beheaded by the champions, therefore never received the connection to the elemental vortixes. That was done after the fall of Rajaat, this point has been brought up before. Rajaat's champions were made into Dragons.
As to Abbey's notes, never seen them, and until I do I don't count them. Besides, if she did state it elsewhere, still in the process of rereading it, she'd be entirely incorrect.
Here's why, if Kalak relied on the "heads" and was not a champion, he'd never been allowed to take Tyr, in Hamanu's words, "the oldest - if not the largest, wealthiest, or most powerful - city in the heartland." Why would the "champions" allow this to happen? Simple, Kalak was a champion.
Finally, there is no direct evidence that Kalak didn't jump in the band wagon or missed it. The evidence is contrary to your point of view, Kalak was in the most important city of the region, controlled the iron mines, was a dragon, immortal, a sorcerer-monarch, and a freebooter. By his nature, Kalak, would never refuse the offer, and if he wasn't a champion would never been given the heads, or allowed to hold Tyr and the Mines. They would have crushed him as they did Dregoth, and that would've been easier to do as he wasn't as advanced as Dregoth.
Netherek, Hamanu's opinion of the other Champions...I do not see how it influences what he knows to be true: he knows that Kalak was never made a Champion by Rajaat. (Its unimportant weither the reality of this is in fact true. Hamanu can be lied to like everyone else. Still, in the novel no indication is given that Hamanu has been lied to on that subject.)
His opinions, like any others and anyone else's, are biased, yes, but they are also informed with a mind so keen only a few share its like on Athas, and with the insight of millenia, not counting a "Champion memory" that is described as inalterable. (Hamanu does say, though, about his infaillible memory, that events and actions performed or witnessed hundreds or thousands of times blur in his mind. Such is not the case of weither Kalak is a Champion.)
About the time the two heads were seperated from their body, and how it precluded them from having a connection to the vortices, well sorry mate but there is no such thing as an "elemental vortice" in the novel. The sole source of templar magic is the connection to the Dark Lens brought on by the Champion creation process, process that Kalak did not went through but Sacha and Wyan did, why the former needs the latter. (Elemental vortices are McGuffins briefly mentionned in Dragon Kings, the Timeline, and I think D&P. Reading Abbey's notes would reveal weither or not she was aware of vortices or not, and if so why she chose this different explanation nonetheless.)
Your statement of not counting Abbey's notes until you see them, what is that?! Excuse my exclamation point but this whole thing is not a race or a competion, nothing is counted or won through it. I'm taking part in this discussion because I know some things to be true and want to set the information straight.
Why would the Champions allow Kalak to take Tyr? Good question, and not one answered in the novel, so it cannot be part of any informed argument. Its an unknown factor, to be relegated to a bit of info that Hamanu never gave the reader of his tale. Like in any tale there are dozens, if not more, of pieces of information that are hinted at and never mentionned again.
Your last paragraph is a series of arguments based on personal conclusions on your part: you saw stuff, and to you it could only mean one thing. My argument, on the other hand, is not based on conclusions but on what Hamanu said. He did say, or rather reminesced in his thoughts, what he knew to be true about the status of Kalak, the one exception among the Champions. (You say Kalak was a dragon. This is important. In the Dark Sun game a mortal man can become a dragon, and so can one in Abbey's novel. But at the time of the Champions' creation the dragon process was incorporated into the Champion process, meaning that every Champion also was a dragon from the get go. Kalak never partook from the Champion process and as such did not become a dragon along with the others. The novel, and Hamanu, make no mention of weither Kalak later became a dragon on his own.)
I could say something about Kalak being mentioned as a champion in the campaign setting being good enough for me (not being one of those Hamanu fanboys :censored
, but instead I'll just say that this thread is another proof why RaFoaDK is not considered canon.(guarnasco's call in this thread to determine once and for all the cannonity of things has been ignored, you'll notice. Its not the first time it has been brought up, and it was answered before.)
(guarnasco's call in this thread to determine once and for all the cannonity of things has been ignored, you'll notice. Its not the first time it has been brought up, and it was answered before.)
Yup and, as usual, it comes brought up since there is no way to find what is canon and what isn't.
if Pennarin was so kind to answer my question I have no problem in living kalak alone to his championhood or else.
On the other hand, unofficial discussion as to what is closer to canon and what is farther from it, what canon is for DS, etc.. - albeit infinitely boring for some because its been done to death already - are perfectly okay subject matters for the boards.
As for the comment about there being "only" fifteen Champions, didn't Troy Denning say that there were "certainly" more than that? Once again, if it fits your campaign...
Athas.org already answered the question on canonicity: There will never be an official "judment of canonicity". Discussions on the point are moot.
On the other hand, unofficial discussion as to what is closer to canon and what is farther from it, what canon is for DS, etc.. - albeit infinitely boring for some because its been done to death already - are perfectly okay subject matters for the boards.
That may be so, and since Kalak is already dead in the Timeline I guess they won't need to make a call on wether to give him the Champion Template or not.
Here are the ones I noticed...
Before seven, she hints at that Myrons followers call on him in the manner of a templar, and that at this point in time the spellcasting followers are sorcerous in nature. After Hamanu becomes Troll-scorcher this strangely changes.
Bults Sword, the first sword Hamanu ever obtain, and wielded as Manu, started out as a composite blade that was very similar to a macahuitle. p.83 After this it becomes a steel sword, starting p.119
Kalak is not presented as anything different than a champion until 210. On p.70-1 she even contradicts it directly with these lines: There were three ways to transform a champion into a dragon: his peers could cast spells to accelerate his metamorphosis, he could quicken so many sorcerous spells that he'd transform himself, or - following Kalak of Tyrs' despicable example - he could gorge himself on the death of his entire city.
Early in the book she refers to a score of Champions, later she says thirteen.
There other breaks of canon in the novel besides Kalak, though they are minor. In Kalak's case I would most likely conclude she used a literary twist on his history to shock us. Unfortunately, after finishing it up today, left me feeling that the Star Wars prequels had fewer errors in it.
I've noticed that there seems to be some contention on Kalak and whether he was a champion.
Before he was fired. Kevin Melka said (back when AOL had the TSR forums) that the prism pentad books are "canon" for the most part and pretty much to disregard Lynn Abbey's stuff, Pennarin, Kalak not being a champion, that Rajaat didn't make the dark lens, etc)
Sorry Netherek but Hamanu was indeed being literal when he said Kalak was no Champion. You quote it yourself in the previous paragraph: Kalak was a powerful sorcerer, already immortal, before Rajaat created his Champions. Only Rajaat can create Champions, thus Kalak was no Champion. He only has the number and title of one. Kalak was, literally, a wizard 20+/psion 20+ character with an ingredient added (probably an epic spell he designed and cast) which rendered him immortal.Abbey clearly defines what is meant by a Champion, and that includes Rajaat making you a dragon, giving you some obscure powers and your flesh some obscure proprerties, and linking you to the Dark Lens. She clearly states that mortals can become dragons on their own too, but unless they also step under the steeple of crystals and Dark Lens they cannot hope to match the power of one of Rajaat's Champions.
Abbey also says Kalak never stepped beneath the steeple of crystals, in case you were wondering.
However, Dragon Kings states that becoming a Dragon has nothing to do with the dark lens and (but does with the SK's connection the the living vortices) mind you this was printed in January 92, and not sure when the Crimson Legion novel was, in which Rajaat is first mentioned.
Before seven, she hints at that Myrons followers call on him in the manner of a templar, and that at this point in time the spellcasting followers are sorcerous in nature. After Hamanu becomes Troll-scorcher this strangely changes.
IIRC the followers "call on him" in a made up ritual involving closet magic, basically chanting. The ritual has no effect that Manu can be sure of, nor can the small band of military man effectively tell if the ritual they perform is indeed contacting Myron.
When Manu becomes Hamanu, he starts having templars and using them to win the war. Prior to him, Myron did not do so, for his desire was to postpone indefinitly the cleansing of the trolls. Real magic - templar magic - and a trained military in large number and given ressources would have changed that to the worst.
Bults Sword, the first sword Hamanu ever obtain, and wielded as Manu, started out as a composite blade that was very similar to a macahuitle. p.83 After this it becomes a steel sword, starting p.119
Nice catch. However, how is that relevant to the point of this thread, i.e. Kalak is or is not a Champion? Because there are errors in a work does not automatically imply the rest of the work should be disregarded. This is a minor error on the author's part. So would the color of someone's dress, for example.
Kalak is not presented as anything different than a champion until 210. On p.70-1 she even contradicts it directly with these lines: There were three ways to transform a champion into a dragon: his peers could cast spells to accelerate his metamorphosis, he could quicken so many sorcerous spells that he'd transform himself, or - following Kalak of Tyrs' despicable example - he could gorge himself on the death of his entire city.
The quoted paragraph from the novel refers to the ways a Champion might accelerate his metamorphosis. The paragraph says a Champion can do like Kalak did and drain his own citizens. This refers to the action Kalak took vis-à-vis his citizens, the draining part. From other sections of the novel we know that Kalak was a mortal guy. From the Verdant Passage we know Kalak drained his citizens as part of a all-in-one dragon metamorphosis spell.
When Abbey says There were three ways to transform a champion into a dragon, she’s talking about a Champion, not anyone. The third option she lists, following Kalak of Tyrs' despicable example, he could gorge himself on the death of his entire city, refers to what a non-Champion did and that a Champion could do as well.
Early in the book she refers to a score of Champions, later she says thirteen.
There is no indication Abbey knew of Daskinor and Keltis, the Champions whose numbers increased the titular thirtheen to fifteen. What she did say however was that there was two other Champions that she intentionnaly left vague: one was Pennarin (cleansed race unknown), the other an unamed Champion said to be Centaur-Crusher.
What does this mean you ask? Either she added new Champions as part of the litterary leeway she afforded herself (like all authors do to a point), or she had been made aware of the game department's change of the number of Champions from thirteen to fifteen, and then not informed as to names and cleansed races.
In her notes its apparent that she even got the cleansed races and titles mixed-up, plus a few names like Kemalok ("Kemelok"). This can only be the result of shoddy gaming department info fed to her, i.e. the researchist employed by TSR made a bad job of summarizing the setting info and in providing basic names.
Another possibility is that she read Kemelok instead of Kemalok and never thought to look it up afterward. Happens to me a lot. Like how people write Hamanu with two Ms.
There other breaks of canon in the novel besides Kalak, though they are minor. In Kalak's case I would most likely conclude she used a literary twist on his history to shock us. Unfortunately, after finishing it up today, left me feeling that the Star Wars prequels had fewer errors in it.
From her notes (IIRC), the way she rendered Kalak was after careful observation of facts partaining to him and that she collected, and the result of conclusions drawn upon those observations. His non-Championhood, why he keeps the heads around, etc., were conclusions she made from the information she had at hand.
However, Dragon Kings states that becoming a Dragon has nothing to do with the dark lens and (but does with the SK's connection the the living vortices) mind you this was printed in January 92, and not sure when the Crimson Legion novel was, in which Rajaat is first mentioned.
Mulhull, I know that. Pretty much everyone whose been around for a while now knows that. Its not the point Netherek was making. Netherek's point was that the contradictary info found in Rise and Fall can be attributed to Hamanu's skewed perceptions and his opinion on things. What I answered back was that these things are presented as truths within the novel. Contrarily to other works of fiction - say, a detective story you can buy at your local book store - the novel Rise and Fall presents us with absolutes. Some (not all) other novels make it a point to make us understand that the main character and narrator of the story may actually be wrong half the time, its an integral part of the reading experience. Not so for Rise and Fall.
Indeed Dragon Kings says that the source of templar magic is the vortices, it even says that Kalak was a 21st-level dragon, but those are not truths found in the novel. In the novel templar magic comes from the Lens and Kalak was a normal guy, albeit immensely powerful.
In short, the novel has to be regard as apart from the other setting material by the reader when he's reading it if he's to enjoy its refinements (and there are, as the novel is far more mature and well written than the PP was).
Forcing yourself to see everything through the eyes of canon causes serious appreciation problems for DS due to all the inconsistencies and contradictions. The PP can be as bad to read than Rise and Fall if one is a stickler for canon. Sadly too many people have been unable to detach themselves from what is said in Dragon Kings and other sources so as to better appreciate Rise and Fall.
In the first few pages of Verdant Passage, Kalak wastes his High Templar of the City Works. The descriptions used in her death are remarkably similar to that described of the special way of killing attributed to the Champions...
How is it that if Abbey was so observant that she say Sadira's instructer Ktandeo was a halfling servant of Rajaat instructing her in the ways of Defiling? Did she even read the Prism Pentad? Ktandeo was a human preserver of the Veiled Alliance.
As to Templar magic, in Canon, that was imparted to the surviving Champion after they imprisoned the War-Bringer right before changing Borys. The Gift of Rajaat is the transformation to a Dragon, maybe with some special differences suhc as not having to be a 20 Defiler/Psion due to the usage of the Pristine Tower and the Dark Lens. Which means that she is in error about the heads, and why if she is correct would the heads fall into Kalak's hands?
When I started this piece I was just started with the book, and up until ch.7 she had remained fairly consistent with canon, and herself.
Now you make a point that she added two champions to raise the 13 to 15, well, she never received feedback according to Q&A, and still 15 a score does not make.
Addressing the skewed perceptions, I was stating that up until ch.7 Hamanu appears to be attacking the character of Kalak, not his title. Of course that changes later in the book.
It's very apparent that Abbey was attempting a literary ploy with Kalak, but it doesn't fit canon and doesn't work. This is different than my original position when I started this article, as at the start didn't come across blatent errors. Of the original SM's, Uyness, would have been the most plausible due to the fact she was weak, called herself the Grand Visier of some God, and was despised by her own people. Unfortunately, Canon established in PP prevents this, and Kalak the only SM killed by mortal hands made an easy target for her "surprise."
Had Abbey made Kalak prominent in the demise of Rajaat, but otherwise not a champion, therefore included in the connection to the Elemental planes as the champions are established as doing then Abbey's viewpoint would be more plausible.
Now to address the demise of Kalak. Many feel that his death was too easy and so is supported by Abbey's writing. Fact is, the weapon used against was clearly design for him, or dragons in general. This made a very potent weapon to have in the fight. Now, they set upon him while he was tied up casting the metamorphosis spell in a manner that would be more risky to the caster than the normal progression, (it's already a life threatning spell if cast successful, DK). Kalak was doing it in one big jump, and was interupted big time. Can we say catastrophic spell failure? Had he been jumped prior to the start of the spell, Kalak would have probably mopped the floor with the heroes, certainly would have taken a few down with him if they won.
Interestingly you say that Abbey's take on Kalak is after careful observations of him...
In the first few pages of Verdant Passage, Kalak wastes his High Templar of the City Works. The descriptions used in her death are remarkably similar to that described of the special way of killing attributed to the Champions...
Attributed to the Champions? The way Hamanu kills with what is called the "eyes of fire" is the way the Troll Scorcher is supposed, ideally, to deal with trolls. Hamanu says every Champion has been gifted with his own special way of killing. Hamanu's is a gaze that induces fire from within.
You can draw parallels between this and Kalak's power 'till your heart's content, but the reverse - i.e. there being no link - works just as well. Kalak invokes the image of the dragon and projected it in his high templar's mind, where the dragon's breath burned her psychy. This was clearly meant by Denning to be a psionic power. (Note: The fun part of that encounter is not the dragon part, its that Tithian says that this simple projection was so powerful that A) he saw the image of the dragon too even though he was not the target, and B) the mental image of the dragon also physically seered her body from within. Now that's psionic might!)
How is it that if Abbey was so observant that she say Sadira's instructer Ktandeo was a halfling servant of Rajaat instructing her in the ways of Defiling? Did she even read the Prism Pentad? Ktandeo was a human preserver of the Veiled Alliance.
I don't recall that. If indeed its true than good catch again.
I never said she was observant, you said that. I said she carefully observed the information she collected and drew conclusions. A bit different.
Btw, Kevin Melka, who, according to Mulhull, said to disregard Rise and Fall, also made the error of describing Ktandeo as a halfling.
Another interesting tidbit about race in the novel is, IIRC, the race of Rajaat: I think he might be a human in Rise and Fall, although I might be wrong.
As to Templar magic, in Canon, that was imparted to the surviving Champion after they imprisoned the War-Bringer right before changing Borys. The Gift of Rajaat is the transformation to a Dragon, maybe with some special differences suhc as not having to be a 20 Defiler/Psion due to the usage of the Pristine Tower and the Dark Lens. Which means that she is in error about the heads, and why if she is correct would the heads fall into Kalak's hands?
Man, stop this please. You are comparing canon with the book. Its not even consistent with the original position you took in your first post.
She can't be canonical because she did not have all of the info at hand, because she drew conclusions that later were deemed wrong, and because books that came out at the same time as her novel (in production while she was writting it) said contradictory things. Saying that she's not canonical for other reasons is nonsense.
It's very apparent that Abbey was attempting a literary ploy with Kalak, but it doesn't fit canon and doesn't work. This is different than my original position when I started this article, as at the start didn't come across blatent errors. Of the original SM's, Uyness, would have been the most plausible due to the fact she was weak, called herself the Grand Visier of some God, and was despised by her own people. Unfortunately, Canon established in PP prevents this, and Kalak the only SM killed by mortal hands made an easy target for her "surprise."
I have no idea what you just said. Ploy?
Hamanu feels contempt for Kalak, and he knows the other SKs do as well, and knows its for the same reasons he does. The end. They all shared their memories and impressions while they drank from the crystal cups, and they've had few discussions here and there over the millenia. Some if not all Champions lied about their origins in the cup-memory they shared, but surely not about everything else and something as irrelevant as weither or not a given Champion hates Kalak.
Had Abbey made Kalak prominent in the demise of Rajaat, but otherwise not a champion, therefore included in the connection to the Elemental planes as the champions are established as doing then Abbey's viewpoint would be more plausible.
She said that being transformed into a Champion is what links you to the elemental planes. In the novel you'll notice that Borys does nothing to the other Champions after their rebellion against Rajaat. He bestows nothing on them. They choose him to become the Dragon, they start the process, it nearly kills them, they chicken out, the subsequent lack of life force prematurely puts a stop on the process, which drives Borys mad, after which ensues a 100 years of rampage. In there there's no Borys taking the time to make the Champions into Sorcerer-Kings, as the Timeline says.
Like I said, the novel is not compatible with the rest of the setting.
To appreciate the novel one needs to take a step back from canon, which apparently you (if I understand you correctly) and many others have not been able to do. I had no problem doing it the first time I read it, and in fact never noticed the contradictary information in Dragon Kings and the Timeline prior to it. When I came on the DS forum I belived that what took place in Rise and Fall was the canon, and argued for it, until XlorepDarkHelm pointed out to me that my whole belief was a badly stacked deck of card based on a few assumptions.
I'm glad to have been able to appreciate Rise and Fall before having to accept all the contradictions as truths because, frankly, Rise and Fall was the best part of DS for me. Still is.
Now to address the demise of Kalak. Many feel that his death was too easy and so is supported by Abbey's writing. Fact is, the weapon used against was clearly design for him, or dragons in general. This made a very potent weapon to have in the fight. Now, they set upon him while he was tied up casting the metamorphosis spell in a manner that would be more risky to the caster than the normal progression, (it's already a life threatning spell if cast successful, DK). Kalak was doing it in one big jump, and was interupted big time. Can we say catastrophic spell failure? Had he been jumped prior to the start of the spell, Kalak would have probably mopped the floor with the heroes, certainly would have taken a few down with him if they won.
Totally agree with you. The winning factors for the Heroes of Tyr were the assassin weapon known as the Heartwood Spear, and the penalties inflicted by the casting of the spell and those penalties incurred when it was disrupted.
As to Abbey being ignorant to canon, I'll use Hamanu's position...
"Ignorance is not a shield to hide behind, and is inexcusable."
She had written two books prior to RaFoaDK, starring Pavek by the way. She had plenty of access to the material, like she couldn't obtain the material at the store. The first job of a writer is to gather as much knowledge on the subject one is to write about. She appears to have either failed to do that, or relied too heavily on shorthand outlines (which I've done and usually results in failure). It's a shame too, the book could have been much better.
It had been about a decade since I'd read the book I forgot about the many details that bugged me about the book, that's why my position on the subject changed.
I enjoin you to download Abbey's pdf notes, and read the two letters she sent to the community. Links to those last two can be found in the Dark Sun Forum Archive, in part X.
Same goes for other readers with questions on their mind. I strongly suggest, if you are a beginner reader of Dark Sun material and happen to stumble on this thread, to read Rise and Fall of a Dragon King as soon as you can, before any notions such as canon might interfere with an otherwise more than enjoyable read.
IMO Kalak was a champion just like the rest of the champions. he shared the same abilities, was created in much the same way, and had the same role as the rest. of course, i'm from the school of "Champions-were-21st-level-dragons" so there are probably many who would disagree, so take it or leave it.
as far as RAFoaDK is concerned, i think it's a cool character study when it comes to how a Sorcerer King might think and act. as a historically accurate representation of the DS setting i feel that it fails completely. this could be due to artistic license on the part of the author, or bad research, or whatever; but i've never used nor thought of RAFoaDK as a source supplement to my campaign. too many holes, and too many contradictions to make it worth implementing as anything more than a character study for RP'ing purposes. for me personally, it's easier to tweak Hamanu's behavior and history from the novel to fit the setting, than it is to tweak the entire setting to fit the novel.
just my two cents.
Heh, I'm not steping back into this conversation, just answering my friend Brian's question. 
my question is, if Kalak wasn't neither a true "champion" and never was made so by Rajaat how did he bestow spells to his templars? in the original boxed set a templar of Tyr called his spells from King Kalak, and after Kalak died, templars no longer had access to their spells. if he never was part of the processes described to make a champion or a dragon, then how was he imparted with the connection to an elemental vortex? was he just born with it? did he cast a spell that allowed him to do it himself? or, was he a champion like the rest of the champions and thus shared their elemental connections?
If you scroll back up this thread you'll see the explanation.
I wrote:
Kalak's templars receive their spells from Kalak...who syphons the power from Sacha and Wyan, the reason why he keeps those guys around.
This is strictly from the Rise and Fall novel.
as far as RAFoaDK is concerned, i think it's a cool character study when it comes to how a Sorcerer King might think and act. as a historically accurate representation of the DS setting i feel that it fails completely. this could be due to artistic license on the part of the author, or bad research, or whatever; but i've never used nor thought of RAFoaDK as a source supplement to my campaign. too many holes, and too many contradictions to make it worth implementing as anything more than a character study for RP'ing purposes. for me personally, it's easier to tweak Hamanu's behavior and history from the novel to fit the setting, than it is to tweak the entire setting to fit the novel.
Personnaly I've found some of the elements of the setting to be boring, bad (although no obvious alternatives presented themselves), or not explained enough. In the novel I found the perfect tool to fix the problems/things I disliked about the setting, and feel that, for me, it not only fixes but enhances. To me Rise and Fall offers better explanations, when it does offer them mind you, then the setting does about some of its ancient history and related subjects.
I'm glad you liked the novel on the level of a character study. At least you had something good to say about it.
it's just that i ended up keeping it seprate from and outside of the DS setting history and used it more as a tool to RP Hamanu when the characters dealt with him in the campaign. in the end that was merely more managable than trying to tie the inconsistencies of the gaming material with the inconsistencies of the novel material (i was, after all, running in 2ed. then - and that was a can of worms in and of itself). though now, with all this talk of RAFoaDK, i may just go back a read it again for S'n'G's...and because it's a good novel. :p
but that just goes to show ya'...published fiction for a setting vs. published gaming material are oftentimes hard to reconcile. this goes back to the "metagame" thread a few weeks back. and like i said then, my general rule of thumb is to consider published source material (boxed sets, adventures, magazine articles, source books, guides, etc.) BEFORE published fiction. to me, the fiction is more of a tool for inspiration (NPC's, game hooks, new locations, flavor, and description) than canon game material verbatim.
i even deigned using the PP for a while even though i enjoyed it greatly simply because it sort of skewed my own ideas of the DS setting ("Borys?!? why!?! Borys was soooo coool!!!" was one of my original reactions)...but eventually caved because the PP eventually figured in to several published adventures which pretty much made it canon. again, there was nothing stopping me from switching roles around a bit and making my players the key heroes of the story (instead of Rikus, Sadira, et al). i ran homebrew campaigns for my players until they were about 8th-10th level, then basically ran freedom with THEM as the heroes of Tyr...and skewing the adventures from there. so that version of DS my players became the heroes of Tyr and eventually defeated Borys (much more spectacularly i might add), and re-locked Rajaat in the hollow (with much more devious and exacting methods of hiding away the dark lens). all in all, i still stuck to the historical material, but made it my own, and my players benefitted.
it's just one way of marrying canon with fiction with campaign needs that i've found works. man, i rambled, sorry! :D ;)
Problem is that with $50 she could've had the most relevent material needed to do that. When writing you should do your homework, and you should have a clear outline of what you intend to do and check your work.
I never said that her book wasn't enjoyable, it was. If I didn't enjoy it the book would've been thrown out a decade ago. I do think it's useful for a study of Hamanu's character, and some insight into the workings of Urik.
-X
1. Canon (however you define it) places Kalak as a champion. period.
2. There are sources that dispute his status as a champion. period.
I have taken a personal approach to Kalak inspired by what others have done with Hamanu (and i'm not a fan boy of his).
I think Kalak was, just like Hamanu, a replacement Champion. And just like him, i think he was designed to kill the other champions.
This would:
1. explain the rivarly between the two
2. also expain (if you believe that Hammanu was the most powerful SK apart from dregoth) why Hammanu was reluctant to attack Tyr (perhaps Hammanu was fearful of the only other champion who could harm him?)
3. Help reconcile differences in the canon and source material
I'm not expecting any reseloution on this, but it's just my thoughts on the matter. Kalak is a Champion, no doubt about it (INMHO) but the only question is what type of champion was he?
As for the theory that he got his spells from the two floating heads... if that was the case, would he be able to grant twice the number of spells per day to his templars? or if he had his own connection and also controlled the connections of his two undead, bodiless advisors, would he be able to grant 3 times the number of spells per day? would this also go some way to explaining why the other champions (Hammanu included) tip-toed around Kalak?
I find it highly unlikely that the other champions didn't know what Kalak was up to building his ziggurat. After all, if you subscribe to the theory that he pinched the accelerated process from a former champion he assist in deposing (more evidence that he was a champion, type II?) the you'd think the other SM's would put the pieces together and figure out what he was up too. So why then didn't the other SK's move against him? again, maybe his templars are simply more powerful, or he was created as a weapon against them (and to balance an ego-centric Hammanu?)
Theories abound and i doubt any resloution but that's my thoughts on the matter. Maybe some will find them useful in thier settings.
Jaanos
The city state of Tyr bookand the revised dark sun boxed set both say Kalak was a champion, the former well says at least he fought for Rajaat. You probably knew this too, but just to reinterate.
Totally agree with you. The winning factors for the Heroes of Tyr were the assassin weapon known as the Heartwood Spear, and the penalties inflicted by the casting of the spell and those penalties incurred when it was disrupted.
heh, if Agis was a PC what would you give him for dealing the death blow to kalak, stabbed through the back of the skull?
What I wrote was for my campaigns, if others want to use it great, I will feel honored by it, but it is in no way taking an official stance since the official stance is that Kalak is indeed a champion. I just wanted to rewrite a little bit of the story and share it and that's mine as well as any one else's prerogative.
There really shouldn't be any debate, it's not like this isn't part of the story that hasn't been solved already. Either like it or hate it and based upon that use it or not, it's all good either way.
Taking away from the uniqueness of the great Hamanu is a bonus.
Nyt, do not see the periodic RaFoaDK discussions as a result of your writing. These would probably come up anyway, because of the (mostly) good read that RaFoaDK is and the horrible Dark Sun book that RaFoaDK is.
Wow, Jaanos. I actually like what you wrote. Nice idea for the Tyrant of Tyr⁚.
Taking away from the uniqueness of the great Hamanu is a bonus.
Nyt, do not see the periodic RaFoaDK discussions as a result of your writing. These would probably come up anyway, because of the (mostly) good read that RaFoaDK is and the horrible Dark Sun book that RaFoaDK is.
Nok shook his head. ..."How can you hope to stop a dragon?"
"Dragon?" Sadira uttered. ... "We're talking about Kalak, not the-" ... "Kalak is the Dragon?" she gasped.
"No. There are many dragons throughout the world," the halfling said. "Kalak is not yet one of them."
"But he's about to become one," Sadira said ... "that's what the ziggurat is for."
"Yes," Nok agreed. "He needs it for his changing."
Now, that obviously doesn't mention anything about Kalak being a Champion or not...but it does, at least, indicate that he hadn't even *begun* his metamorphosis into a dragon yet (i.e. wasn't even a 1st-stage dragon), which gives more credence to the idea that he was somehow different than the other Champions - if we consider the PP to be canon, then now not only do we have an S-K that, for whatever reason, has *both* decapitated ex-Champion heads in his possession (for whatever reason), but that also hasn't even taken the first step in becoming a dragon.
So, here's my proposal, which incorporates the BoA, PAoA, Revised Ed. WC, PP, the "official" TSR timeline, and even some RaFoaDK (...and, from there,also incorporates both Jaanos' and Nyt's ideas):
- Right before the Cleansing Wars began, while the defilers and preservers were going at it, Rajaat was still in the process of selecting who were to be his champions during his still-in-the-planning-phase upcoming Cleansing Wars; at this point in time he's got all sorts of powerful defilers to choose from, including the likes of Irikos and Kalak...but he hasn't yet developed the ritual that will create the "true" Champions, and so doesn't yet know to 'single out' the defiler/psions from this larger group of defilers.
- Irikos isn't a psion at all - he's simply a defiler/fighter, or the equivalent. Kalak is also not a deflier/psion - he is primarily a defilier, and a potent one at that, and his psionic abilities (if any) are secondary and minor.
- At this point in time, Irikos is one of Rajaat's "first draft" picks, so Rajaat names him his "left hand" and gives him the Silencer. By the same token, both Myron and Borys are high on his list of "future champions" and so are given artifact-weapons as well. While this is going on Kalak, being the schemer that he is, makes sure to be involved enough that Rajaat considers him an asset, but also keeps himself low enough on the totem-pole that it's unlikely he'll be chosen for any crazy plans Rajaat comes up with in the future.
- As the preservers are losing the war, Rajaat starts putting forth the idea of the Cleansing Wars; in this way he can further "weed out" those that will eventually lead the CW armies from his wide assortment of powerful defiler, warrior, psion, etc. followers. Irikos buys into this idea and decides to go after the Orcs right away - after all, they are numerous, are known for their melee skills as opposed to magic (which, since Irikos likes using the Silencer, makes them a "better" choice than some other races). A large portion of Rajaat's followers follow suit, picking out a race to pick on, and quite possibly even wipe out a few before the Cleansing Wars officially start (such as the centaurs, minotaurs, and any other intelligent race you want to name that isn't targeted by one of the 15 Champions). Kalak possibly shows interest in the ogres.
- Rajaat comes up with the crazy plan to transform some of his disciples into his Champions via a magic-psionic combination. Unfortunately, the ritual he develops for it requires powerful defiler-psions, which cuts both Irikos and Kalak out of the equation. As such, he picks his top 15 defiler/psions(or psychic warriors...whatever), sends the rest away (to continue doing what they're doing, but no more teaching from him), and these 15 are taken to the Pristine Tower and turned into the true Champions of Rajaat. The 2nd Champion is some unnamed individual, or possibly even someone named Kalak - just not the Kalak of Tyr (or, another option, is that Kalak of Tyr changes his name to Kalak at a later date, and is currently an unnamed fellow). Those that "didn't make the cut" but are still noteworthy, including both Irikos and Kalak, are given prominent positions within the war...they just aren't put in charge of wiping out a race, but instead are "secondary" to it. In the case of Irikos, Rajaat still refers to him as a champion, since he's always been one of Rajaat's favorites, and puts him alongside Uyness as they wipe out the orcs. Rajaat likes to say that it was Irikos that killed off the Orcs, but since history is written by the winners it's Uyness that is remembered as the Orc Plague.
- Sometime during the first 1000 years of the Cleansing Wars, the original 2nd Champion is killed and Kalak takes his place, finishing off the Ogres and taking credit for it. He has made himself immortal one way or another, but still is not a psionicist of any real power. As an interesting possibility, perhaps he secretly kills the original 2nd Champion, replacing him and taking on his identity (using extremely potent magic to conceal the fact) - this fact is eventually discovered by the other Champions, but not until the ogres are dead and Rajaat has "released" Kalak from his duties...at which point in time it's a moot point, and so everyone lets it slide. Hence why Hamanu dislikes him so much, etc. In either case, this is another case of the winners writing the history books, so Kalak is remembered as the 2nd Champion.
- Irikos continues to be Rajaats "Left hand" despite not being a true champion, mopping up any "Enemies of Humanity" that are ignored by the real Champions. He gets himself killed at Bodach and the Silencer is lost.
- When the Champions rebel against Rajaat, Kalak takes part in it, but since he's still not a psion (and so doesn't meet the requirements for dragon metamorphosis) he isn't transformed into a 1st-stage dragon. He does, however, gain the ability to channel elemental energy to his templars, as do the others.
- Kalak realizes that he will never become a dragon without first becoming a potent psion, and so he takes the heads of Sacha and Wyan and, over the following millenia, forces them to teach him the Will and the Way. The two sense that at some point in time they may be able to use Kalak to overthrow Borys and the others and release Rajaat, so they go along with this and also offer their assistance in defending Tyr against any of the other S-K's. With their help, not only does he pose enough of a threat to the other S-K's that he is "allowed" to stay in control of a highly-important city such as Tyr (his powerful magic + 2 psionic Champion heads = a potent threat to a Champion), but he also eventually gains the psionic know-how to transform himself (given 3e rules, the fact that he's already Epic level means that you're looking at all sorts of XP he would need to earn to get those psion levels, and not a whole lot of ways to do it...resulting in 2 millenia of 'learning').
- Kalak, not being a neigh-invulnerable Champion, but rather just a powerful defiler/psion (with the accompanying low-HPs), is killed by characters and artifacts that wouldn't have stood a chance against a "true" Champion. Sacha and Wyan then continue doing what they've been doing - teaching psionics - only now with Tithian. The events described in the PP now take place.
Also, that passage could be interpreted as that the Dragon of Tyr is but one Dragon, meaning Completed Dragons of many throughout the World. Otherwise he might have said that there are many Dragons of Tyr, or that no Kalak isn't a Dragon but the other kings are.
That aside, I like your write up. It's well written.
I had a similar idea though on blending book to canon. In my idea, instead of not being accepted as a champion, he refused. Being a noted freebooter and not wanting to serve Rajaat, and found out how to achieve the first stage of dragon on his own, (though still not a champion). He then conquered Tyr, before the other champions began to settle. When the Champions rebelled, Rajaat offed Kalak power with "no strings attached" to help him against the Champions. Kalak double crosses Rajaat and is the one who kills Sacha and Wyan, (hence the trophies) and is included in the connection to the elements.
I have held the position for sometime that Kalak was not a Champion and the only way he was able to grant spells to his templars was due to a forced psionic manipulation created by Borys that made the two heads- who had the ability- to grant Kalak's followers spells.
I tried working that into my interpretation, to try and better incorporate the RaFoaDK theories, but left it out as the Revised Wanderer's Chronicle specifically says that it was the "first step" of Borys' turning the rebels into sorcerer-kings that created the spell-granting ability...and since that wouldn't have applied to Sacha and Wyan, it makes for way to many twists-and-turns (as others have mentioned on this thread) to get them to be the "source" of Kalak's spell-granting ability.
Wow! A little sketchy in the middle, but that was a brilliant interpretation overall. I particularly like the motivations you ascribe to sacha and wyan, and there purpose/function in teaching Kalak and helping him to remain in control of the "most powerful" city-state. Great work
Which part did ya think was "iffy," the bit about Kalak "replacing" the original Kalak and/or something else? I just sorta liked that idea as it sounds like something an incompetent-yet-egotistical evil wizard would attempt, as well as something that Rajaat would have approved of and prevented repercussions from the other Champions.
Problem is that Hamanu was written out as a warrior with no other powers prior to Rajaat transforming him.
Not really a problem - even the PP indicates that Hamanu was somehow "different" than the others (the Scourge didn't harm him), so sticking with Abbey's interpretation here is fine as well...he was just a warrior that Rajaat bestowed powers upon when he replaced Myron. In relation to my historical theory, it just means that Kalak wasn't given the same "Champion Mark II" conversion (or any, for that matter), simply because Rajaat didn't feel it was necessary...and the "why" of that decision could be just about anything from "You're powerful enough as-is" to "I'm making you a replacement champion because the previous Ogre Doom was a moron, but I don't really like you so don't expect to get any powers from me." Who knows how Rajaat thinks.
And thanks for the kudos guys. :D
Problem is that Hamanu was written out as a warrior with no other powers prior to Rajaat transforming him.
As a psychic warrior it is possible that Hamanu didn't know he was using powers when he was a "fighter." Giving him powers such as Burst, Conceal Thoughts, Detect Hostile Intent, Escape Detection, Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, and other powers that aren't easily seen he could naturally use them and nobody would be the wiser (except a psion).
As for Kalak, Irikos, and others like them, a template - Hand of Rajaat. Take the Champoin of Rajaat, remove all special attacks, Energy Storing special ability, reduce damage reduction and regeneration by half and remove the ability increases.
This was Rajaat's first attempt at creating beings for his wars. He didn't want to use his real champions and possibly lose years of work so he used powerful humans as test subjects. After this test he realized he needed even more power.
As an option, have the Champion template overwrite the Hand, put Hamanu as a normal fighter for 5 or 10 levels before he meets Rajaat, give him the Hand template. Rajaat sees untapped power in Hamanu, after thier meeting he begins to advance as a Pyschic War or even a Psion, learns a bit of magic, and when Rajaat next sees him he's given the upgraded Champion template (version 2 Champ with special abilities against the others).
As for Kalak granting spells to his templars, I've always been for him siphoning power. Kalak killing them off is an idea I never thought of though. Could be interesting. Between immortality and regeneration, Kalak couldn't actually kill them, and thier beheaded heads were in the Pristine Tower skulking about after Rajaat was imprisoned. The elemental vortices joined with them which is not something the champoins were attempting to do. The elemental vortices were attached to the Champions, and in fact caused thier extinction when ALL the vortices were bound to the champoins, not just one each.
I'll probably edit this tomorrow or later tonight, it probably rambles a bit, I've had a long day, sorry if it's difficult to follow.
I have held the position for sometime that Kalak was not a Champion and the only way he was able to grant spells to his templars was due to a forced psionic manipulation created by Borys that made the two heads- who had the ability- to grant Kalak's followers spells.
Personally, I would throw Rise and Fall right out the window as far as him not being a Champion is concerned, that's not the only mistake Lynn Abbey makes in that book, she says also that the champions know about undead Dregoth, but as far as they know he died and is gone, the last time they saw him was when they killed him and destroyed Old Giustenal. And that Rajaat didn't make the dark lens, (Well, Psionic Artifacts of Athas said 'thought to have been created by Rajaat' so maybe it's not a total mistake) ,and that Rajaat is a lot younger than he is according to the timeline, and that the dwarves killed the previous dwarf butcher before Borys, and that Dregoth was already immortal before he became Rajaat's champion............need I go on?
That was an entertaining book, don't get wrong, perhaps Lynn Abbey went strictly by the Pentad (and perhaps Tribe of one) novels, and not the game material at all, but it's got more holes in it than swiss cheese if you use both.
I remember just before he got fired, Kevin Melka said that the Pentad Novels and game material are canon for the most part and that Rise and Fall had a lot of mistakes. It may still be archived on AOL- before they took down the TSR forums, I believe they still have AD&D boards there, which they could have archived them.
1. Dregoth goes from level 21=29 in less than 100 years (and would go into rage)
2. Dregoth was already level 28+ once Borys used the Dark Lens to transform them into Dragons.
Personally I think Rajaat turned them into Dragons and Borys just connected them with elemental vortices. Rajaat drew enough power to change the colour of the sun- one would think the Champions would have gained more than immortality.
Personally I think Rajaat turned them into Dragons and Borys just connected them with elemental vortices. Rajaat drew enough power to change the colour of the sun- one would think the Champions would have gained more than immortality.
Agreed. I think the Sorcerer Monarch are much, much more than just immortal, hence my write-up on a Monarchal Power Rank system ;)