I have downloaded what is available from the Vaults on the islands, and I am currently crunching them down to their core ideas. Not all of these early ideas will make it into the final product, but they will be given due consideration.
For now, I'd like your suggestions for island names (and specify which island).
Also, Thorf, are you planning an X7 map of the Sea of Dread or an X1 fine-detail map of the Isle of Dread?
-Old Dawg
Timeline of the Sea of Dread
Also, Thorf, are you planning an X7 map of the Sea of Dread or an X1 fine-detail map of the Isle of Dread?
Yes and yes. X7's underwater map is a bit of a problem area, though, especially when compared with PC3's partial map of the same area. I'm inclined to go with PC3.
As for X1's detail map, I do plan to tackle it quite soon, since it's one of the remaining pointed-top hex maps to be converted to flat-top hexes. But don't forget that there is an excellent reproduction of this map available as a downloadable extra for Dungeon 114.
While I'm here, let me contribute my own view for development of the Thanegioth Archipelago: keep it wild and settled only by primitives. That's about all, but it's a very important point in my opinion.
A sentient island One of the smaller islands is actually alive in some way (possessed by a Spirit maybe). Lots of animated plants and unusual terrain.
Zombie Pirates A pirate ship (from Minrothad?) stranded on the archipelago falls foul of a curse and undead pirates now await unfortunate explorers.
Dinosaur Druid? The islands are home to perhaps the only dinosaurs in the outer world so it seems likely that Ka would take an active interest. In order to protect the dinosaurs he has given one intelligence and druidic abilities (Awakened plus levels in Druid in 3.5e terms).
Another option might be the Saurian Shifter race from Dragon #328. They could be a primitive tribe decended from Ka himself. The article in fact suggests they come form the Isle of Dread and that "the dinosaur god Ka" would be a perfect patron.
As for bad guys - got to be the Kopru. :D
It's in the Campaign ideas section.
Regards
Gary
(Note: The image may be partially corrupt, but still readable. I'll try to fix it and post a clean version of the map as soon as possible)
If you have AC 10 "Bestiary of Dragons and Giants", maybe you can place the island of the storm giants somewhere SE of Termite Atoll. We also placed the adventure about Thyralax the dragon in the central island of the archipelago (the second big island east of the isle of dread), due to the presence of koprus and to the large NS extension of the area described in the adventure.
We tought also about placing the old Belcadiz home (naming it "isle of Alvar") in the easternmost island of Thanegiot Archipelago, but this is not so much canonical.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
It certainly helps me, for one! :D
I had completely forgotten about this map. X7 is not exactly compatible with PC3's undersea map, so I thought I was going to have to improvise to fill in deep water in the Sea of Dread. But now thanks to you, I can trace it from this map.
This is extremely interesting in that your theorised coastline matches very closely one that I did, for a map of southern Brun c. BC 2000. My map runs from Thyatis in the east to what is now Jahore in the west. if anyone is interested, I would be happy to share it.
Geoff
This is extremely interesting in that your theorised coastline matches very closely one that I did, for a map of southern Brun c. BC 2000. My map runs from Thyatis in the east to what is now Jahore in the west. if anyone is interested, I would be happy to share it.
Geoff
I'd love to see it! Maps of pre-1000AC have been interesting me lately - Maybe it's just because I like 'history' in general and so I find Mystara's history so intriguing.
I'd love to see it! Maps of pre-1000AC have been interesting me lately - Maybe it's just because I like 'history' in general and so I find Mystara's history so intriguing.
I just sent it to you privately...
Geoff
this is a very nice overlay. One caveat that I know off the top of my head is that even with a shelf subsidence, the old coastline need not perfectly match the current shelf rim. further southern portions could have sunk deeper into the abyssal reaches, and interior waterways could have reached north of the mark. Also, there is GAZ4 textual support for some of Ierendi to already being an island before the big quakes - the K. Caldera specifically [although the islands it lists as part of the caldera are logically impossible].
One addition for the map: the reef beside the Three Sisters is the Dragon's Teeth Reef.
On the matter of conflicting underwater terrain. X7 is more scientifically reasonable for its depth estimates. Abyssal Plains rarely go beyond 20,000'; anything further is the Hadal Zone and these occur only in narrow trenches. The Mariana's Trench, at 36,000' (11km) deep, is the deepest known point in the RW. So I would ignore the "50,000+ Abyss" label on the PC3 sketch map. Nor would I allow the Abyssal zone to extend westward beyond where the Dragon's Teeth Reef should be. In short, for the southern sea portion, X7 is more justified.
PC3 has two hex maps (one is smaller scale used for one of the adventures) - these two maps have different Terrace contours. The interior map resembles X7 more than the 8mph PC3 map. the 8mph map also has some consistency errors - the coloration for different depth zones differs on the eastern and western portions of the Terraces. So you have sickly yellow representing both 1,000 and and 10,000.
I will look into using AC10 for parts of the Thanegioth.
-OldDawg
On the matter of conflicting underwater terrain. X7 is more scientifically reasonable for its depth estimates. Abyssal Plains rarely go beyond 20,000'; anything further is the Hadal Zone and these occur only in narrow trenches. The Mariana's Trench, at 36,000' (11km) deep, is the deepest known point in the RW. So I would ignore the "50,000+ Abyss" label on the PC3 sketch map. Nor would I allow the Abyssal zone to extend westward beyond where the Dragon's Teeth Reef should be. In short, for the southern sea portion, X7 is more justified.
Bear in mind that this is a fantasy world, after all, so RW constraints need not apply. After all, Mystara is smaller (diameter-wise) than the RW Earth (by about 1,000 miles), yet it's crust is almost 50 times as thick!?!?! (The figures I see estimate the thickness of the RW Earth's crust to be around 40 KM, while Mystara's is supposed to be around 2000 KM). I don't really see any problems with a 50,000+ (16 km) deep portion of the sea.
Arachne, Island of Spiders
A race of spiders very like the araena have built a long lasting society that has remained in place at least since the establishment of the Thyatian empire. The spiders, a race named the Taranteans, are larger than araena, having an average span of 8', and they are mute, communicating through vibrations created by drumming their legs on the ground. They are masters of the island, although another race, the phanaton, is also common there. However, the phanaton of this island are totally unlike those of the Isle of Dread; countless generations of servitude have turned them into near mindless drones, they passively allow themselves to be fed, protected, and preyed upon by the Taranteans.
The main settlement of the Taranteans, named in the Tarantean language Hearts (population 1100), reveals a little more about the origin of their race. The remains of a former civilisation, with architecture reminiscent of the Great Wall on the Isle of Dread, are to be found here. There was a great (human?) city, with architecturel motifs and temples devoted to a forgotten immortal, an immortal whos symbol was an eye, with the many eyes of spiders being a common theme among the homes and temples. However, to even find these remains one would have to travel through countless layers of the web-homes of the Taranteans. In amongst the older homes, buried closer to the ruins, there are rumblings of things that even the mighty spiders fear...
The city itself is a dark, forboding place, with all of the walkways and streets being entirely contained within the mass of webs produced over the years. The webs of Taranteans are somewhat different to those of other spiders in that they are not flammable, and they only remain sticky for a short while after being spun, making them an ideal structural material.
The phanaton live mainly in the surrounding jungle, which provides amply for their own means and those of the Taranteans. Few other predators are found on the idland; the occasional Shark Kin incursion is put down brutally by the Taranteans and flying monsters are dealt with by being lured into massive webs.
While the population and organisation of the island seem odd enough, the history of the idland and the reality of Tarantean society are more bizarre and chilling than any outside observers could possibly imagine...
One of the islands could be Bararna Island, from this article (I placed it just east of the Isle of Dread). Basically, it's inhabited by a degenerate troglodyte tribe who worships a "god" known as Gleesshka (actually an Outer Being). They are a threat to smaller human tribes on neighbouring islands.
Geoff
In my campaign, on one one of the smaller islands, the second Easternmost island shown on the above map, ther is an interesting culture. Based rather on H.G. Wells classic novel "The Time Machine". Here's an introduction, more if anyone cares.
Arachne, Island of Spiders
Hey, I like this. It is interesting how Phanatons and Aranea always seem to live in the same areas. Are they somehow connected?
And I would guess Arachne Prime, from M1 is somehow involved in whats going on on this island?
Håvard
In my campaign, on one one of the smaller islands, the second Easternmost island shown on the above map, ther is an interesting culture. Based rather on H.G. Wells classic novel "The Time Machine". Here's an introduction, more if anyone cares.
Arachne, Island of Spiders
With the (somewhat simplistic and disappointing) names from XSOLO Lathan's Gold, which are included on LoZompatore's map, there is a Spider Isle. Wouldn't it make sense to make that your Arachne? That way it fits with what little official info there is on the island.
While on this subject, has anyone else read/played Lathan's Gold? I tried it out a couple of weeks ago, and wow was I disappointed. I realise that a solo adventure is not an easy thing to write, but they really made an incredibly bad job of it nonetheless.
And the names of the islands... What a wasted opportunity. Some of them are not too bad (Three Sisters Keys especially), but the others are pretty dreadful.
With the (somewhat simplistic and disappointing) names from XSOLO Lathan's Gold, which are included on LoZompatore's map, there is a Spider Isle. Wouldn't it make sense to make that your Arachne? That way it fits with what little official info there is on the island.
There's even a Temple of Araknee on that same island.
IMC, I had that island as part of a colony of Dawn Aranea (aranea from the Isle of Dawn), worshippers of Arachne-Prime (though with Araknee either being a regional spelling or a later, human, corruption of the name).
Hey, I like this. It is interesting how Phanatons and Aranea always seem to live in the same areas. Are they somehow connected?
Yes, in my campaign. Both remnants of the same lost culture on this island; the Araenae variants were created in religious rituals by the same people who 'tamed' the phanatons.
And I would guess Arachne Prime, from M1 is somehow involved in whats going on on this island?
No, actually. But we can certainly consider including that.
With the (somewhat simplistic and disappointing) names from XSOLO Lathan's Gold, which are included on LoZompatore's map, there is a Spider Isle. Wouldn't it make sense to make that your Arachne? That way it fits with what little official info there is on the island.
That would make sense, although I'm struggling to place that island. Where is it?
Arachne was a seat of the ancient Thanegioth civilisation, similar in most respects to the culture who built the Great Wall on the Isle of Dread. After flourishing for many centuries, explorers brought from the other isles Araenae, Rakasta and Phanatons; Arenae as companions, great wizards who could add to their way of life on the island, and the Rakasta and Phanatons as servants, farmers of the jungle and warriors. They also brought with them holy texts found on the other islands from an ancient, almost forgotten religion, the way of the Eye, or the way of Arik.
Araenae quickly became powerful in the way of Arik, and within two short generations they became the masters, the shaman leaders of the island, with humans and phanatons to do their bidding, and rakasta warriors trained to defend the island. By sacrificing to their almost forgotten immortal, they became more powerful and larger, but such sacrifices come with a cost; for these Araenae (now the Taranteans) that cost was an eternal vow of silence in their obedience of Arik.
They sought to bring Arik back from his prison plane, learning the secrets of the outer beings with whom Arik had sided in a war against the immortals. Their explorers travelled far and wide to seek the knowledge of other ancient beings, reaching as far as Oceania, Hule and Cynicidea. Eventually they had enough materials and knowkedge to create an eye of Arik, and brought that terrible curse to the land (see module B3).
The humans on the island were amongst the first to die, along with man of the phanatons in the city of Hearts. The Taranteans quickly consolidated their hold on the island and the remaining phanatons, weaving thick webs over the whole city to hide their wicked plans. It is assumed that none of the Rakasta survived, but no reports of their deaths have come to light; it is possible that some may have survived and even prospered in the dense jungle covering the island outside of Heart.
To this day, Taranteans work within the aura of the Eye of Arik to plot the return of He of Many Eyes.
The City of Hearts
Within the city itself, the outer suburbs (referred to as The Web) are inhabited mainly by Taranteans and their phanaton servants; anyone entering the city is certain to disturb the web, and will soon be confronted with a horde of inhabitants. Taranteans in this region are in almost constant communication with each other using their strange, vibratory language which carry right through the webs; intruders are found and eliminated quickly.
Inside the city are eight temples, evenly distributed in a ring around the centre of the town. These temples, known as the Pumps, are all dedicated to Arik, being filled with symbols associated with the Eye and the Taranteans. They act as entry points into the centre of the city, an area called Venom. It is in Venom that the Eye of Arik is located, and the most sinister secrets of Arachne reside.
The central district of Heart, known as Venom, is home to the darkest, most evil inhabitants of Arachne. Here the Tarantean high priests of Arik work dilligently to turn themselves into the perfect beings in readiness for the return of their immorta. Plunging the depths of the darkest magics on Mystara, they research inter-planar and inter dimensional travel as well as chronomancy and demonology; all of the arts that might be used to return Arik to the prime plane.
Venom is a claustrophobic complex of what was formerly the human temple and palace in the city of heart. Extending for around 400 yards in each direction (and many hundreds of feet down into the volcanic rock below), and buried under at least 150' of tighty knit web, it is dark, damp and highly dangerous. While the high wizard, the high priest and their underlings are found in the buildings on the 'surfact', down below all manner of evil creatures attracted to the eye of arik (buried deep under the city) from other planes are to be found.
The High Wizard of the Taranteans (her name does not translate from the unusual form of communication common amongst the Taranteans, but she is known to her Phanaton slaves simply as Hem) is an ancient being, has been the ruler of this land for centuries. It is her goal, her quest for immortality in the sphere of entropy, to return Arik from his prison plane, after first destroying a human civilisation (which she has already accomplished). Her immortal patron in this task is Arik, one of the few immortals foolhardy enough to desire Ariks return from exile.
The High Priest (referred to by his slaves as Meh) is the High Wizards consort; he is dwarfed by the massive bulk of the female, but is still a wiley, intelligent, and powerful individual. It is his goal to attain immortality in the sphere of entropy by creating a new race to unleash on the world, a race that is the perfect combination of Tarantean and beholder, thus turning his own race into one closer to the beholder immortal Arik. Most of the creatures guarding the Eye are of this kind, and although few of his experiments have been entirely successful, most of them are at least potent.
All living Taranteans, are the progeny of the Hem and Meh. None can become fertile themselves until they are removed from the island, the maturation process taking 3d12 weeks, and none can leave the web without Hem and Meh instantly becoming aware. While parties of Taranteans are found across the island, none are known to have escaped Hem and Meh.
I'd like to see somewere in the Arcipelago ruins of Ancient Colima. A pre-coliman civilization, building stone idols.
That's just my idea, of course ;)
This is extremely interesting in that your theorised coastline matches very closely one that I did, for a map of southern Brun c. BC 2000. My map runs from Thyatis in the east to what is now Jahore in the west. if anyone is interested, I would be happy to share it.
Geoff
Here's Geoff's map...
Hey, Cab! Cool stuff with Arachne. These threads are producing some really great ideas.
Hey, Cab! Cool stuff with Arachne. These threads are producing some really great ideas.
Cheers Hugin.
I'll see whether I've got my notes on specific creatrures, it'll all be formatted for classic of course but it'll be good to round off Arachne.
X1 is about exploring some inexplored land, finding strange people like rakasta, human native, phanaton, lizard-man, kopru and the like.
Interesting: these "monsters" were later opened as player character races, but dinosaurs (obviously!)
Ok, at old, blue covered expert time, also the Savage Coast was but a wilderness area, to be explored in a "mapping the unknown" adventure.
Today, Savage Coast people uses guns and smoke-powder... what a jump from savage tribes of tortles and rakasta!
So, I was thinking... why shouldn't progress be operative in Thanegioth Arcipelago too?
Couldn't there be some more advanced civilization? What about an advanced kopru kingdom? And some humans very evolved... maybe the 1st expedition in ancient 1983 found gold. And lot of colonist started from all over the Known World to search gold (or gems, opals should do nice in a volcanic island).
And now there is a rich, advanced civilization... and some unrestful native and...
So, I was thinking... why shouldn't progress be operative in Thanegioth Arcipelago too?
Couldn't there be some more advanced civilization? What about an advanced kopru kingdom? And some humans very evolved... maybe the 1st expedition in ancient 1983 found gold. And lot of colonist started from all over the Known World to search gold (or gems, opals should do nice in a volcanic island).
And now there is a rich, advanced civilization... and some unrestful native and...
well it is kinda cool having a lost world scenario relatively accessible (well as much as a lost world scenario can be I suppose), and it would be a shame to get rid of it just for the point of doing so. Although I'm sure that something interesting could be done with the area.
I've managed to convert (on a preliminary basis) Thanegoith to 8 mph. I'm still working on the exact details, but the regional map from X1 (as converted by Thorf in 24 mph) gels very well with the Gazeteers and the Trail Maps. My main concern is that the X1 (with the rotated hexes) map of the Isle of Dread itself appears to be larger than that on the 24 mph map itself (after the re-scaling).
Mark, I'd love to have a peek at that. Did you just use X1's wrongly-orientated 6 mi per hex map for reference, or did you use Dungeon 114's map too? When I get round to doing the Isle of Dread I had been planning to use both and see how things turn out.
Mark, I'd love to have a peek at that. Did you just use X1's wrongly-orientated 6 mi per hex map for reference, or did you use Dungeon 114's map too? When I get round to doing the Isle of Dread I had been planning to use both and see how things turn out.
Initially I've just used the X1 map (24 mph) for positioning of the islands, but the next stage was to use the 6 mph map from X1 to provide more detail. I'd forgotten about the Dungeon 114 map, so will have to dig it out at some point.
Initially I've just used the X1 map (24 mph) for positioning of the islands, but the next stage was to use the 6 mph map from X1 to provide more detail. I'd forgotten about the Dungeon 114 map, so will have to dig it out at some point.
Wait a second, I misunderstood - you did the whole Thanegioth Archipelago?! That's awesome! I'm definitely looking forward to seeing that!
By the way I agree with you about the authenticity of the original source, X1. It may simply be because almost nothing since then touched the area, but it all seems to fit with the later additions quite nicely.
Her immortal patron in this task is Arik, one of the few immortals foolhardy enough to desire Ariks return from exile.
Uh? Apart from the fact that Arik shouldn't be able to do that (being currently exiled), wouldn't it be logical for him to wish to return? Or are you talking about another immortal and got the two mixed up?
Just checked the Dungeon 114 map, and basing it on the scale shown it appears to be about 50% bigger than the island size from the 24 mph map in X1 (on a rough N-S basis). Haven't yet been able to decide how I'm going to approach the 6 mph map from X1 for a comparison though yet. Any suggestions?
Thorf
Just checked the Dungeon 114 map, and basing it on the scale shown it appears to be about 50% bigger than the island size from the 24 mph map in X1 (on a rough N-S basis). Haven't yet been able to decide how I'm going to approach the 6 mph map from X1 for a comparison though yet. Any suggestions?
Interesting... Personally, I think I will ignore the scale altogether and just use it for reference for the terrain and coastlines. I don't know how faithful it is to the original maps, but it should be fun finding out.
Aside from the comparisons to the 24 mph map, the map from Dungeon 114 (now that I've checked it again) seems to be pretty much a good fit for the X1 6 mph map (I think the scale for this one may be out compared to both the others).
Hmm. Give me a couple of weeks and I might have an answer.
Moreover, the coastlines only match up in the very loosest sense. The 24 mi per hex island is much thinner, and includes some of the 6 mi per hex map's islands in its single land mass.So the official maps from the same source disagree with each other. This leaves us with a number of options:
- Re-scale the 6 mi per hex map, then update the 24 mi per hex map with the more detailed coastline. A scale of 4 mi per hex looks like it would fit quite nicely, and probably wouldn't hurt the adventure too much.
- Take the 6 mile scale as true and update the 24 mi per hex map with the larger outline. This preserves the Isle itself as is, but the impact on the smaller scale continental map might be quite big.
- Take the 24 mile scale as true - after all the X1 map is pretty accurate for the other things it shows - and redraw the Isle of Dread map accordingly. This would be quite an undertaking, and would result in a much smaller Isle of Dread. The impact on the adventure itself would be quite big.
All three methods are equally valid as far as "canon" is concerned; the official maps disagree with each other, after all. Personally, I would be inclined to go with number 1, though I could understand people wanting to go with number 2. Number 3 seems like an inferior version of number 1...
Thoughts?
It looks pretty good in terms of coastlines, but it seems to go with the 6 mph from X1 with too much mountainous/bare hills terrain (for my liking). Although the original was done without a jungle/hill terrain marker. Given that the local islands are also covered with jungle, this inclines me to cover most of those hills with the new marker.
I agree with you completely about the hills. Jungle hills appeared on official maps more than 10 years after X1 was made, so there is a definite case for some redefining of the terrain. I am tempted to make most or even all the hill hexes into jungle hills. (I'm getting images of the island in the TV show "Lost" ...)
Aside from the comparisons to the 24 mph map, the map from Dungeon 114 (now that I've checked it again) seems to be pretty much a good fit for the X1 6 mph map (I think the scale for this one may be out compared to both the others).
I don't think we need to worry about the scale on the new map at all. It's questionable whether it's even official Mystara, so I have no compunctions whatsoever in ignoring parts of it - however nice it may look. ;)
On the other hand, it would be nice to keep that map useable too, which is another reason why rescaling (option 1 above) rather than redrawing might be the best idea.
(Now I must get back to playing Final Fantasy XII while my wife is at work... I can't get near the thing while she's here! ;) )
I agree with you completely about the hills. Jungle hills appeared on official maps more than 10 years after X1 was made, so there is a definite case for some redefining of the terrain. I am tempted to make most or even all the hill hexes into jungle hills. (I'm getting images of the island in the TV show "Lost" ...)
X1 being similar to the island from "Lost" sounds exactly the way I've envisioned it. I dont really like the idea of changing the 24 mph map. This is what Mystara grew from, and changing it just seems wrong...
I don't think we need to worry about the scale on the new map at all. It's questionable whether it's even official Mystara, so I have no compunctions whatsoever in ignoring parts of it - however nice it may look. ;)
On the other hand, it would be nice to keep that map useable too, which is another reason why rescaling (option 1 above) rather than redrawing might be the best idea.
I agree, keep the "Dungeon#114" map usable if possible. Details from that map could even be used for ideas about locations not detailed in X1 if any...
As far as I am concerned, I consider the adventures from Dungeon #114 as Mystaran, and the references to Greyhawk simply as one big typo... ;)
Håvard
I'm also in favour of the jungle covered hills as well. It only makes sense in that type of enviroment. The jungles also provide cover for most everything on the island which contributes heavily to it's mysterious aspect.
Oh dear, you're absolutely right - the Isle of Dread as shown on the 24 mi per hex map is about half the size of the one on the 6 mi per hex map.
Wow! That's a pretty big snafu. Surprised no one has noticed it before!
Since there are so many maps which seem to use the 24 mile map of the region as their baseline, I'd almost be inclined to go with theory #3, although- as you note- it will play havoc with the scale of the island, and result in a much smaller island than necessary. As such, I'd probably go with keeping the 6 mile/hex map and seeing how that affects the larger maps (for one thing, there won't be quite as much empty ocean there in the Sea of Dread between the landmasses).
That's a tough call.
I'm still to finish the rest of the islands, but as this is one of the more famous pieces, I'd rather get comments in first. Especially with names for the volcanoes and swamps (if anyone fancies)
What scale is it, though? 8 miles per hex?
My first impressions are that it's looking good. :D
What scale is it, though? 8 miles per hex?
Oops. Yes.
One thing I feel would be appropriate would be a couple of extinct volcanoes somewhere around (I'm liable to put some around on other islands too)
If possible, I'd like to see the map extend a bit north and south to pickup the submerged topology.
For a preproduction update on the gaz for TA:
1) As Denagoth is inspired by sword and sorcery flicks from the 80's, TA is all about 30's adventure films and 19th-20th century island literature. No current high-level societies, but remnants, certainly possible ....
2) Sorry, no "Lost" treatment for TA (For non US folks, are you in season 1 or 2?). The essence of Lost just doesn't mix well with Kong or Murou; however, should ths product line be continued, I do have my eye on an island for just this type of approach.
A rather large island isolated in the Izondian Deep.3) Between what has been listed on the thread, the vaults and my own feverish brain, I have adventure themes galour for the Islands. In fact, there are enough to have almost two campaigns. When TA goes into production, would you guys like a "super-gaz" that does both the islands and the Sea of Dread writ-large? or do you want it to be just the islands?
-OldDawg
Map looks good. I think this may be the best overall solutions. For the larger map, will you be able to include all of the eastern archipelago?
Mark said above that he's mapping out the whole archipelago, so the answer is almost certainly yes.
If possible, I'd like to see the map extend a bit north and south to pickup the submerged topology.
It's mostly just plain open sea, but it seems likely that the map will be made to link in with Mark's existing maps - right Mark?
I can see how you would need this if you are considering covering the various small isles of the Sea of Dread too. This does seem like a good place to cover those islands, because they are a bit small to get a gazetteer all to themselves.
For a preproduction update on the gaz for TA:
1) As Denagoth is inspired by sword and sorcery flicks from the 80's, TA is all about 30's adventure films and 19th-20th century island literature. No current high-level societies, but remnants, certainly possible ....
Sounds good.
2) Sorry, no "Lost" treatment for TA (For non US folks, are you in season 1 or 2?). The essence of Lost just doesn't mix well with Kong or Murou; however, should ths product line be continued, I do have my eye on an island for just this type of approach.
I wasn't actually meaning to make a comparison story-wise. I just meant that the scenery and geography shown in Lost seems extremely close to the image of the Isle of Dread that I have in my head.
Besides, in order to do a Lost parallel, wouldn't you have to have some idea of what's actually going on in Lost? I keep pretty up to date with the US airings (thanks to Bit Torrent, source of all my TV viewing!), and we still don't really have a clue what's really going on.
3) Between what has been listed on the thread, the vaults and my own feverish brain, I have adventure themes galour for the Islands. In fact, there are enough to have almost two campaigns. When TA goes into production, would you guys like a "super-gaz" that does both the islands and the Sea of Dread writ-large? or do you want it to be just the islands?
Adventure ideas sounds very interesting. If I might make a suggestion, perhaps this gazetteer should focus far more on adventures than past gazetteers have. It makes sense for the setting, since that is in general the only way that people are likely to have contact with the Thangioth Archipelago.
Also, I have been thinking lately what a shame it is that we don't make more adventures in our community here. Gazetteers and maps abound, but adventures are a little thin on the ground...
Off Topic ("Lost"): yeah I do have a bit of an idea about what's going on, or as clear as anyone else ;) . The theory boards over at oceanicflight815 have reams of ideas that even if they aren't actually correct for the show, are by themselves wonderful adventure ideas.
for a "lost"-style campaign, the special wrinkle is backstory. Every character played gets a detailed history known only to the player and the DM. DM's task is setting up parallelism and interconnectedness in adventures. Very much "role-playing" over hack-n-slash.
On Topic: you are right, by themselves the islands of the SoD don't merit gaz' treatments. but collectively, 10 islands plus the ocean itself and peripheral nations is enough for a gaz.
Adventure treatment definitely will be more important in TA.
I too would like to see some modules put out by the group. Now that we have a brand-spanking new gaz (wendar) and another on the way (Denagoth), perhaps there is someone out there willing to to write a 8-16-24 page adventure in the north?
It's mostly just plain open sea, but it seems likely that the map will be made to link in with Mark's existing maps - right Mark?
Indeed, what I'm eventally going to post is effectively the region covered by the 24 mph map from X1 in 8 mph format. At the moment I have this (Known world 8 mph). I'm working on updating this to cover Thorf's Wendar and Atruaghin changes as well before I post the final version.
Part on topic, part off:
Off Topic ("Lost"): yeah I do have a bit of an idea about what's going on, or as clear as anyone else ;) . The theory boards over at oceanicflight815 have reams of ideas that even if they aren't actually correct for the show, are by themselves wonderful adventure ideas.
for a "lost"-style campaign, the special wrinkle is backstory. Every character played gets a detailed history known only to the player and the DM. DM's task is setting up parallelism and interconnectedness in adventures. Very much "role-playing" over hack-n-slash.
I'm still only in the middle of Season 1 here, but I'm thinking about running something like a Lost-type scenarion on the Isle of Dread.
1) Plane crash substituted by shipwreck.
2) "the hatch" replaced by Wizard's lab.
3) "Others" could be pirates, other "ship wreckees" etc.
4) I like the backstory angle, this could even be played out as flashbacks in-game, but preferably if all PCs are present in the flashbacks. I'll probably skip it though, and concentrate on the main plot.
5) "The Monster" replaced(?) by dinosaurs, obviously.
Things I havent seen yet in season 2+ could easily change all this obviously, but the above could make for an interesting campaign IMO.
Håvard
1) Plane crash substituted by shipwreck.
You could always make it a flying ship, even the Princess Ark. ;)
Regards
Gary
You could always make it a flying ship, even the Princess Ark. ;)
Wrecking the Princess Ark???
:OMG!
I thought about using a Flying Ship, but at least for my own campaign, I prefer keeping it low-magic at least unless something else fits its purpose.
Ofcourse, there might still be a crashed Alphatian ship filled with Zoonga Bush somewhere on the island... ;)
Håvard
Wrecking the Princess Ark???
It's not as if it hasn't happened before.
Now if you were being really evil you could crash Serraine into the Isle of Dread.
Regards
Gary
Second: Adventure Mods... as part of my 3e project, I was intending on soliciting for original adventures and expanding the hooks found in the Gaz's. But that's still a ways away. Most of the adventures in the Vaults are little more than b/g and hook... The only full-fledged module that I can think of off the top of my head is Jenni's...
Oh, and OldDawg, I would like to thank you for keeping your Gaz's along the same rules-light style as the Almanacs... It makes it so much easier to use for both classic and 3e...
But I have a suggestion... For those who heed the call of module design, maybe we could keep a singular format? Use the same cover style as the old TSR mods, changing the color of the bar at the top to designate the rules-set used? blue=0e, green=2e, red=3e?
Roger
I'm still to finish the rest of the islands, but as this is one of the more famous pieces, I'd rather get comments in first. Especially with names for the volcanoes and swamps (if anyone fancies)
I just finished my replica and converted (rotated) maps for the Isle of Dread (for which see my thread). I had a look at the Dragon 114 online supplement map, and I noticed that it has quite a lot of new names. I haven't decided yet what to do with them; some seem very reasonable, while others don't quite seem to fit - perhaps there are Greyhawk influences to some names?
My updated map (the original map rotated and rescaled) seems to fit almost perfectly with your new 8 mi per hex map, so I guess we're both on the same track.
I'd like to have a look.
As for my maps, check my thread as usual. I didn't want to clog up this thread with lots of big maps. :D
Also, looking at the map from Dungeon 114, only one label seems to fit with the previous labelling (The Fangs of Zotzilaha, though I may change the "The Fangs of" bit, sounds like a possible English translation of the local name though). The rest of them sound a bit "comedy pirate" to me though, I mean "Scurvy Reef" "Skinrazer Rock". Others do sound as possible translations of the local versions. Don't really have time to come up with ideas atm, but will try and sit down at some point. Unless anyone else can get there first.
[Edit] Uploaded an unlabelled version of just the Sea of Dread area in 8 mph here . Any suggestions / corrections please let me know. (And I will be updating one hex to jungle caves as per Thorf's map, but I can't do that on this PC)
Thorf - for the fauna I generally go for only sentient creatures, so Areanas, and Troglodytes are in, Rock Baboons and Squid are out.That sounds like a good rule. On the current version of my map, all I did was change all the numerical map labels into actual labels, including many that I consider to be largely unnecessary. When I revise it with new names and stuff, I will trim out all but the most useful of those labels, I think.Also, looking at the map from Dungeon 114, only one label seems to fit with the previous labelling (The Fangs of Zotzilaha, though I may change the "The Fangs of" bit, sounds like a possible English translation of the local name though). The rest of them sound a bit "comedy pirate" to me though, I mean "Scurvy Reef" "Skinrazer Rock". Others do sound as possible translations of the local versions. Don't really have time to come up with ideas atm, but will try and sit down at some point. Unless anyone else can get there first.
Hehe, on the contrary I found "The Fangs of Zotzilaha" to be the worst of the new labels. What's with the Aztec-style name? The villages sound more polynesian to me...
But yes, I agree with you. The names given on that map were almost all a bit too tacky for my liking. It would be nice to get more of a native feel to them, as opposed to the imperialistic/explorer names given on that map.
Still, perhaps we can use them as a basis for the native names, perhaps by translating them into another language - Maori, for example.[Edit] Uploaded an unlabelled version of just the Sea of Dread area in 8 mph here . Any suggestions / corrections please let me know. (And I will be updating one hex to jungle caves as per Thorf's map, but I can't do that on this PC)
Very nice! I can't help but feel that the Isle of Dread is one or two hexes too low, but perhaps that is just due to the added islands around the southeastern peninsula. I do have a few suggestions, though: add some rivers, perhaps one or two to each island; a swamp or two; some more broken lands, perhaps around the extinct volcanoes; lots more small islands, of similar size, quantity and distribution to those around the Isle of Dread.
Also, mountains on some of the coasts (i.e. cliffs), and sandy beaches on others. Not to mention reefs scattered liberally around the whole archipelago.
Then of course we get into the discussion of other villages, ruins, and so on. My view of the archipelago is of a land rich with opportunities for adventure, but in a tropical wilderness setting, without the proximity of civilisation to back up the party. Therefore it should include villages and camps, both friendly and dangerous; ancient ruins to be explored; exotic monsters to fight; mountains to climb; and caves to investigate.
As for naming, the online Maori - English dictionaries are so-so, will try and look up a Polynesian one tomorrow.
I've uploaded a new version (still unlabelled, but I'll get to that later). I'm thinking about having the island to the west of the Isle of Dread populated by a tribe of savage halflings. The decendants of some who got blown off course when they moved from Davania to Brun. Imagine the PCs faces when those cute halflings with grass skirts tie them to spits over a fire.
On the western Island- I had hypothesized making it the location of legendary Vacros and Cathos eons ago, and made up this preliminary map. I never really went with it, due to the nature of Cathos (a city) seeming a bit at odds with the otherwise "primitive" feel of the Thanegioth Archipelago. Plus, these days, I think the names and themes of the region as described in MSOLO: Maze of the Riddling Minotaur fit in better with the Minaean/Bellisarian region, so I am inclined to place Cathos and Vacros there.
You might find some interest in the map as a reference, though (although I hadn't noticed the scale discrepancies with the IoD before, so I don't know offhand if the other islands in the TA will have the same problems- probably not, since they only appeared on larger scale maps, but it's something to bear in mind).
As for primitive halflings, in a story that Geoff and I were alternating chapters of eons ago (A New Twist on an Old Adversary)- though I dropped the ball and the story just kind of died; we were going to change the name, too, though I don't recall to what-
Anyway, in my next installment, I was going to introduce a character who was going to be a halfling from Davania- a black (or dark-skinned, anyway) halfling- who was a descendant of the tribes that still live down there and didn't emigrate north (where the pale-skinned ones now live). They weren't going to be primitive, but they were going to retain a more tribal, nomadic culture. Maybe your Thanegioth halflings are related to them, or they could just be as you say- descendants of castaways from the original migration.
I'm thinking about having the island to the west of the Isle of Dread populated by a tribe of savage halflings. The decendants of some who got blown off course when they moved from Davania to Brun. Imagine the PCs faces when those cute halflings with grass skirts tie them to spits over a fire.
That's awesome! lol
I honestly would love to get my players there just to see the looks on their faces! What about Immortal-worship for them? Maybe they revere something other than an Immortal. Interesting...
I honestly would love to get my players there just to see the looks on their faces! What about Immortal-worship for them? Maybe they revere something other than an Immortal. Interesting...
Probably some Entropic volcano/fire Immortal, or maybe an evil Energy Immortal. Not sure who that would fit. Generally I use Thanatos for evil, twisted things like this as he delights in corrupting innocents.
The Sea of Dread region is still largely unlabelled as I just don't seem to have any inspiration at the moment.
Thorf - it does appear lower on this map, due to the additional islands below which seem to have been dropped from the regional map in X1 (imo).
Have merged the Sea of Dread map with my one of the Known World
Cool. It's interesting to see all those maps combined into one like that. Good job.
Have merged the Sea of Dread map with my one of the Known World (available here ). I'm not able to post it directly into the board as it is about 3MB and I'm not sure what the bandwidth on my site is. I've also updated the Atruaghin Clans and Wendar regions with Thorf's maps.
The Sea of Dread region is still largely unlabelled as I just don't seem to have any inspiration at the moment.
Thorf - it does appear lower on this map, due to the additional islands below which seem to have been dropped from the regional map in X1 (imo).
Looking very nice! Your additions are starting to make the chain look much more interesting. I especially like your reef placement - great work.
You could still add in a small inland lake to one of the larger islands, and perhaps a river on one or two islands too. Also, I'd still like to see a lot of smaller islands scattered throughout the archipelago, filling in some of the empty spaces between the larger islands. Of course, they should all be the same size or smaller than the smallest islands shown on the 24 mi per hex map.
Have you considered marking on deeper water, or are you intending to stick to the current two shades? The official maps go as far as having four shades, which I have been wrestling with for some time now.
Have you considered marking on deeper water, or are you intending to stick to the current two shades? The official maps go as far as having four shades, which I have been wrestling with for some time now.
I decided a long time ago to reserve the differing undersea levels for maps of the undersea region. I just feel that it's not relevant to know below about 10 fathoms or so when conducting a surface based adventure.
[Edit]
Map updated with a couple of smaller islands.
I also removed the Rakasta camp, and placed a generic Rakasta marker, as from the description in X1 it sounded like a temporary hunting camp, rather than a more formal military/permanant camp.
I suggest you to writhe some island name in Thanegiot as you did in Ierendi and Minrothad.
More: I see you forgot Ranwood label in Soderfjord Jarldoms, between Lande(r)sfjord River and (north of) Overland Trade Route.
I like your map very much, mah9.
I suggest you to writhe some island name in Thanegiot as you did in Ierendi and Minrothad.
More: I see you forgot Ranwood label in Soderfjord Jarldoms, between Lande(r)sfjord River and (north of) Overland Trade Route.
The island names from Ierendi and Minrothad are from the respective Gazetteers and the Trail Maps, wheras I have no canon names for the Thanegioth Archepeligo apart from "The Isle of Dread" which doesn't seem to me to be a "local" name, rather one from Thyatian or other "Explorers". I'm not that good at names, so I'm hoping the kind people here will help me with that.
And the Ranwood label has been added.
Once again, the large scale map has a scale that makes the plateau much bigger than the smaller scale maps would indicate. The Central Plateau is about 28 miles across, while the same plateau on the Isle of Dread map is only about 20 miles across. (The cartographers who worked on X1 seem to have put an in-built tardis effect into these maps...)
We can work out the correct scale, though. One hex on the 6 mi per hex map should be equal to 8 hexes on the Central Plateau map, meaning that the correct scale should have been 3/4 mi per hex. These calculations are based on taking the Isle of Dread's 6 mi per hex scale as correct.
But of course we know that it is also wrong, and my new updated map has a more reasonable 4 mi per hex scale. This seems to go better with the Central Plateau, because it means we can relabel it at 1/2 mi per hex, which is a much more normal scale.
So, to sum up, if you want to use the X1 maps as is, please consider them to be at the following scales:
- Known World and Sea of Dread map: 24 mi per hex
- Isle of Dread map: 4 mi per hex
- Central Plateau map: 1/2 mi per hex
This new set of scales makes all the maps fit together much better.
In any case, I'd be inclined, for a feature like that, to disregard the larger scale map, and stick with the smaller scale (which is more detailed). Something along the lines of other features that alter with scale- ie, you lose the detail of grassland hexes and things that are near mountain hexes and such.
Then again, considering that I didn't like the way they disregarded the actual size of the Atruaghin Plateau on the large scale maps and came out with a much smaller version for the Gaz, maybe I should reconsider that opinion. Guess it has to do with chicken and egg mentality- the large scale plateau for the Clans is the one the smaller map should have been based on (it came first), while the small scale plateau on the IoD is the one the larger map should have been based on for the same reason.
Anyway, I largely agree with what you are saying. It's a good general rule to say that smaller scale maps provide more detail and are thus better sources than larger scale maps. But unfortunately it's not always that simple, and there are times when we can't rely on the most detailed maps as the best source.
In the case of the Gazetteer maps, they outrank the Known World overview maps not only because they show more detail, but because they show detail that wasn't there before. They clarify and expand on the original sources. Plus of course they were made later. So clearly they are the best sources to use as a foundation.
Then we come to the modules. Most of these were made before the Gazetteers came out. Yes, their maps have lots of interesting details, but they are outranked chronologically by the Gazetteer maps - which themselves seem to have been made without reference to the module maps. We definitely want to use these details, but sometimes the changes they demand of the Gazetteer maps is just too much.
In those cases (X13 and B10 come to mind), we just have to make a judgement call on what to keep as is, what to adapt, and what to throw away.
The Atruaghin Plateau is a bit of a different matter, because we can safely say that GAZ14's large scale (8 mi per hex) map was a mistake - possibly deliberate (to fit the poster map), but a mistake nonetheless. The other sources are just too numerous to accept the change. But most of all, it is an undesirable change, so we have no need to accept it.
With X1, on the other hand, we are talking about a single source that spawned three maps, all of which present different scales that conflict with the other two maps. Usually in this case we would start from the largest scale map and work outwards. That would give us two options: rescale the Isle of Dread and Known World maps, or redraw the plateau bigger on the other maps.
Rescaling means changing the labels of 1/6/24 to 1/8/48, which of course is ludicrous, because the Known World map's scale of 24 mi per hex is set in stone. Even if we just apply that scale to the Isle of Dread itself, it would be a bit silly, because we would have to double the size of the Isle on the Sea of Dread map.
Redrawing the plateau is a valid option, but in doing so we are introducing a complex change to the Isle of Dread map, which of course has its own problems of scale to deal with. Also, we would be "overwriting" the land around the plateau - in this case just mountains.
On the other hand, rescaling from the small scale map down allows us to keep all three maps pretty much as-is; we don't lose any detail, we just make things a bit smaller. Then we can follow the standard convention of revising the smaller scale maps using the larger scale maps: redraw the plateau on the Isle of Dread, possibly adding the crater, the lake and the rivers, then redrawing the Isle of Dread on the Known World/Sea of Dread map, by revising the coastline, tweaking terrain, etc.
In the end, I think the simple rescaling is the best option, because it allows the official maps to be salvaged and remain usable. Does it really matter that the plateau is now 14 miles across instead of 28?
(Sorry, that got a bit longer than I intended...)
I think you have large scale and small scale mixed up. Large scale means small area, lots of detail, for example 1:5000. Small scale means large area, not so much detail, for example 1:50,000. The way I remember it (when I do remember it - I seem to forget which is which every few weeks :embarrass ) is that 1/5000 is larger than 1/50,000.
Whoops! I always just assume that large means "big area" and small means "small area."
In the end, I think the simple rescaling is the best option, because it allows the official maps to be salvaged and remain usable. Does it really matter that the plateau is now 14 miles across instead of 28?
Probably, to the people that live on it.
I'd have to check the maps to really be sure what you're talking about in terms of scale of the plateau, though. In your OP, when you said:
I just finished doing the Central Plateau maps from X1, and when I compared the plateau on those maps to the Isle of Dread map, I found yet another discrepancy: the scale is out again.
(Italics mine for emphasis)
Do you mean the Isle of Dread map from X1 itself, or just the Central Plateau maps from X1 compared to another source. That is the source of my confusion. If the two maps within the same product differ in scale, then I'd agree to go with the smaller scale map (not my definition of smaller scale ;)), and rescale the larger scale map.
If you are comparing sources from two different products, I'd be inclined to go with the original source in this case.
Unfortunately, the relative scales are definitely not 24:6:1. If the scales are taken as is, two of the maps would have to be extensively redrawn. Hence my proposal to rescale the maps. The actual ratio of the things depicted on the maps is more like 24:4:1/2, (or 48:8:1, or 36:6:3/4, depending on which map you choose as a reference).
Regarding the size of the plateau, and indeed the island, I don't think changing the scales from 6 to 4 mi per hex and from 1 to 1/2 mi per hex will significantly affect the adventure. Remember that all that changes is the "real" size of things, and therefore the most significant effect will be travel time.
Remember that all that changes is the "real" size of things, and therefore the most significant effect will be travel time.
And you can always introduce a magical reason for slowing down the rate of travel if you so wish, to return the journey times to the original.
And you can always introduce a magical reason for slowing down the rate of travel if you so wish, to return the journey times to the original.
Yeah... Or you could even just make a ruling that all travel times are increased by one third due to difficult wilderness terrain. It is all unspoilt jungle, after all. :D
On the plateau, all travel times need to be doubled, though, and it's mostly clear terrain. Hmm...
On the plateau, all travel times need to be doubled, though, and it's mostly clear terrain. Hmm...
An artifact buried under the ruined temple. Where the priests would have had amulets to make them immune to the effects, but it stops the sacrifices from running away so fast?
An artifact buried under the ruined temple. Where the priests would have had amulets to make them immune to the effects, but it stops the sacrifices from running away so fast?
An idea that I never actually expanded upon for the Mystara community, but which I use IMC, is that the Kopru Empire that is referred to in X1 was actually the Kopru Chronarchy- several empires of Kopru throughout Mystaran history, linked only by the time-traveling artifact that the Kopru used to maintain it. The story of their downfall is linked directly to their violations of time, and Immortal complicity in rectifying their abuses. Your "slow-time" artifact would definitely tie in.
Sounds good! Very good!
Do you have any material to expand it?
I really would like something to characterize more koprus.
Slizzark, the (time) lurker would be very nice. I always asked myself how being lurker would be linked to magic resistance.
It could be the resistance of being turned back in one own's time... magically, of course, becoming a general magic resistance...
Nice, very nice...
Pls, share all your ideas about time traveling koprus!
Pls, share all your ideas about time traveling koprus!
IIRC, I had planned to tie Slizzark in with things.
As for more specifics, I hadn't gotten around to expanding too much more. The basic idea was that the Kopru were a race distantly related to the Carnifex (they evolved from the same distant ancestor, but the Kopru remained marine-bound, while the Carnies went onto dry land), and they were contemporaries with the Carnifex. The Carnies dominated the land, the Kopru the seas, and the two races grudgingly worked together.
When the Carnifex decided to expand to the northern continent, they initially worked with the Kopru (whose oceanic dominion they would have to cross), and the two groups entered the Serpent Peninsula. There, the kopru with their troglodyte servants (provided by the Carnifex) began to settle and create a colony.
All kinds of things happen to this colony, but the relevant portions are that one faction of the Kopru discover the time-traveling artifact that is buried under the Serpent Peninsula (the one later used by Yav), and figure out how to operate it. They disappear into the time stream, to set up their own dominions in distant futures, far from the interference of the Carnifex and other kopru. Among these dominions of the Chronarchy is the settlement in the Isle of Dread region (which is later destroyed during the Aquapopulous Wars referred to in XSolo: Lathan's Gold).
(As for the original kopru empire (in the westernmost regions of the Sea of Dread, near to the Savage Coast)- they were destroyed in a rebellion by their undersea servants shortly before the final fall of Y'Hog, c. 7,200 BC.)