Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mulhull Mar 05, 2006 4:06:46	I think there could be a lot more detail as to what actually happened to Yaramuke, according to the timeline and Rise and Fall, Hamanu killed her when she tried to attack his city/gain more power, not the specifics however And what about Kalidnay. There are two conflicting stories here. Psionics Artifacts of Athas, says Kalid-Ma's soul/consciousness is contained with his orbs if they are all brought together. And Domains of Dread a 2E Ravenloft product says that Kalid-Ma is hidden in Ravenloft in a coma, with his former high templar serving as a darklord of a domain. Perhaps these could both be true, that Kalid-Ma is in a coma in Ravenloft, because his soul is in the orbs, rendering his body "lifeless" There is a product in which Nibenay is rendered paralyzed (physically and mentally, pretty much comotose) and captive by a Greater Air Elemental, during which time templars could not refresh thier spells, but Kalid-Ma's high templar gets his/hers
#2 Pennarin Mar 05, 2006 6:13:51	On an official standpoint, Kalid-Ma and his city are dealt with through the optic of Dark Sun supplements that mention them, with Ravenloft material disregarded (...but only where it contradicts DS material, I would surmise: there's nothing stoping us from taking names of places and NPCs that were further developed for Ravenloft).
#3 xanthus Mar 07, 2006 19:29:46	If my memory serves, the Ravenloft supplement states that Thakok-An (or something to that effect) believes that Kalid-Ma is there in the domain of Kalidnay because the Dark Powers have her believe that. He's sitting all coma-like in his cracked Ziggurat and not much is going on because of that. Thus, what Ravenloft says actually holds nothing true to the actual Dark Sun canon as she's utterly removed from it; the actual events that transpired are different. She was drawn into the Mists when she sacrificed her family to do her part to enhance Kalid-Ma's spell. She probably wasn't even there when he finished his spell or was abruptly moved to the Demiplane of Dread when the spell was completed. The reality of the situation (again, if memory serves me right) was that Kalid-Ma was successful; to an extent anyway. He became the Dragon of Kalidnay, but lost his mind to the rampage and it took Hamanu, Borys and Nibenay to stop him. By the time they were finished, Kalidnay was so much ruined buildings and citizens-turned-to-dust. Another SK bites the dust. Again, please refute me if I'm wrong and correct me, but I'm pretty sure I'm spot on. Cheers, -X
#4 Mulhull Mar 07, 2006 19:44:31	The reality of the situation (again, if memory serves me right) was that Kalid-Ma was successful; to an extent anyway. He became the Dragon of Kalidnay, but lost his mind to the rampage and it took Hamanu, Borys and Nibenay to stop him Again, please refute me if I'm wrong and correct me, but I'm pretty sure I'm spot on. I think the only correction is that it was Kalak instead of Nibenay.
#5 rexaroo Mar 08, 2006 10:42:08	why is kalid-ma's crime particularly heinous? i mean, the sacrifice of all the lives necessary to become a dragon (around one or two thousand hit dice of living creatures per level of dragon) i think, would qualify as equally bad (if not much worse) than killing your family. just look at what kalak was attempting. all ten levels of dragon in one step. thats like 15,000 HD of your own subjects. you'd think that would draw some major attention (if it had been successful).
#6 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 08, 2006 11:31:19	I think there could be a lot more detail as to what actually happened to Yaramuke, according to the timeline and Rise and Fall, Hamanu killed her when she tried to attack his city/gain more power, not the specifics however And what about Kalidnay. There are two conflicting stories here. Psionics Artifacts of Athas, says Kalid-Ma's soul/consciousness is contained with his orbs if they are all brought together. And Domains of Dread a 2E Ravenloft product says that Kalid-Ma is hidden in Ravenloft in a coma, with his former high templar serving as a darklord of a domain. Perhaps these could both be true, that Kalid-Ma is in a coma in Ravenloft, because his soul is in the orbs, rendering his body "lifeless" There is a product in which Nibenay is rendered paralyzed (physically and mentally, pretty much comotose) and captive by a Greater Air Elemental, during which time templars could not refresh thier spells, but Kalid-Ma's high templar gets his/hers I want to say that Shai-Nad on this forum here, had been the one to make a rather compelling explanation to the Ravenloft/Dark Sun inconsistancies for Kalid-Ma. Personally, I play it off as the Dark Powers of Ravenloft pulled some smoke & mirrors tricks to convince the people of Athas (particularly the Sorcerer-Kings) that Kalid-Ma was slain by them, while in actuality, Kalid-Ma was made comatose, his mind spread throughout the artifact Orbs, and scattered (I like Nytcrawlr's idea about some being on Athas, while others in Ravenloft, to make combining them and restoring Kalid-Ma is virtually impossible).
#7 balican_gigolo Mar 08, 2006 23:17:45	why is kalid-ma's crime particularly heinous? i mean, the sacrifice of all the lives necessary to become a dragon (around one or two thousand hit dice of living creatures per level of dragon) i think, would qualify as equally bad (if not much worse) than killing your family. just look at what kalak was attempting. all ten levels of dragon in one step. thats like 15,000 HD of your own subjects. you'd think that would draw some major attention (if it had been successful). Well maybe it did draw some attention. how does a lvl8 gladiator inflict a mortal blow on a SK? Maybe a spell was put on the heartwood spear, an epic spell...
#8 balican_gigolo Mar 08, 2006 23:17:48	why is kalid-ma's crime particularly heinous? i mean, the sacrifice of all the lives necessary to become a dragon (around one or two thousand hit dice of living creatures per level of dragon) i think, would qualify as equally bad (if not much worse) than killing your family. just look at what kalak was attempting. all ten levels of dragon in one step. thats like 15,000 HD of your own subjects. you'd think that would draw some major attention (if it had been successful). Well maybe it did draw some attention. how does a lvl8 gladiator inflict a mortal blow on a SK? Maybe a spell was put on the heartwood spear, an epic spell...
#9 Ryltar_Swordsong Mar 09, 2006 7:37:26	I think there could be a lot more detail as to what actually happened to Yaramuke, according to the timeline and Rise and Fall, Hamanu killed her when she tried to attack his city/gain more power, not the specifics however Info on this can be found in the adventure Black Flames. And what about Kalidnay. There are two conflicting stories here. Psionics Artifacts of Athas, says Kalid-Ma's soul/consciousness is contained with his orbs if they are all brought together. And Domains of Dread a 2E Ravenloft product says that Kalid-Ma is hidden in Ravenloft in a coma, with his former high templar serving as a darklord of a domain. Perhaps these could both be true, that Kalid-Ma is in a coma in Ravenloft, because his soul is in the orbs, rendering his body "lifeless" There is a product in which Nibenay is rendered paralyzed (physically and mentally, pretty much comotose) and captive by a Greater Air Elemental, during which time templars could not refresh thier spells, but Kalid-Ma's high templar gets his/hers Some info on Kalidnay is available in the adventure Merchant House of Amketch.
#10 Ryltar_Swordsong Mar 09, 2006 7:41:58	Well maybe it did draw some attention. how does a lvl8 gladiator inflict a mortal blow on a SK? Maybe a spell was put on the heartwood spear, an epic spell... The Heartwood Spear was an Artifact.
#11 d20gm Mar 09, 2006 8:30:18	why is kalid-ma's crime particularly heinous? i mean, the sacrifice of all the lives necessary to become a dragon (around one or two thousand hit dice of living creatures per level of dragon) i think, would qualify as equally bad (if not much worse) than killing your family. just look at what kalak was attempting. all ten levels of dragon in one step. thats like 15,000 HD of your own subjects. you'd think that would draw some major attention (if it had been successful). The heinous part was not necessarily that Kalid-Ma was killing so many of his subjects to advance himself. What got the attention of the Powers of Ravenloft was the act of his templar, Thakok-An. She personally sacrificed her own family in an attempt to advance Kalid-Ma further and win his love. That kind of twisted romanticism fits in perfectly with Ravenloft, although its not particularely dark-sunnish ;>D IMHO, there are 2 possible reasons for the change in story for PAoA: 1-The writer of PAoA was ignorant of the storyline put forth in DoD. This is certainly possible, since PAoA was written in the latter part of the DS material. As we all know, there are numerous inconsistancies and mistakes made by people who wrote in the DS line even when no outside product was involved, much less when it was. 2-A conscious decision to distance the DS story from Ravenloft due to corporate reasons or a belief that it was inconsistent with the DS atmosphere. Personally, I like the Ravenloft/DoD story better & have chosen to ignore the later PAoA account altogether in my own game. I am preparing to draw my PCs into Kalidney thru the Mists. The idea is for them to kill Thakok-Am and thereby accidently restore Kalidney to Athas. (The Ravenloft Powers are no longer interested when the Darklord is dead.) I think it'll make an interesting adventure and restore another City-State to Athas, possibly with a recovered SK, depending on how things happen.
#12 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2006 1:41:34	The Dark Sun-Ravenloft link sounds like a plug. The editors probably included it to make money. Take it for face value. I wouldn't think too hard on this subject. Though, I do like the idea of a Dark Sun Dragon King in Ravenloft, because I like cross overs. I still remember my Mul scout that fought the wars in Dragon Lance. He rocked because he didn't need sleep!
#13 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 12, 2006 9:25:42	The Dark Sun-Ravenloft link sounds like a plug. The editors probably included it to make money. Take it for face value. I wouldn't think too hard on this subject. Though, I do like the idea of a Dark Sun Dragon King in Ravenloft, because I like cross overs. I still remember my Mul scout that fought the wars in Dragon Lance. He rocked because he didn't need sleep! Ravenloft had plugs from a variety of the other worlds. That was kinda part of the charm for it, for me. The idea that really evil people from any of the worlds all got stuck together in that "prison" to be tormented by evil.
#14 tykus Mar 12, 2006 13:26:02	why is kalid-ma's crime particularly heinous? i mean, the sacrifice of all the lives necessary to become a dragon (around one or two thousand hit dice of living creatures per level of dragon) i think, would qualify as equally bad (if not much worse) than killing your family. just look at what kalak was attempting. all ten levels of dragon in one step. thats like 15,000 HD of your own subjects. you'd think that would draw some major attention (if it had been successful). It wasn't Kalid-Ma's crime that drew the Mists, it was Thakok-An's crime that drew the attention. In my campaign, Thakok-An has one of the orbs (the smallest one).
#15 zombiegleemax Mar 12, 2006 15:22:31	Kalid-Ma didn't commit a crime. If you look at from his stand point. Those people were mere mortals that lived meger little lives whereas Kalid-Ma was a mighty king and an immortal being that used those people to further his quest for greater immortallity. Besides, in a hundred year's time, they all would have died anyways, so why not use them now?
#16 tykus Mar 18, 2006 8:49:09	Kalid-Ma didn't commit a crime. If you look at from his stand point. Those people were mere mortals that lived meger little lives whereas Kalid-Ma was a mighty king and an immortal being that used those people to further his quest for greater immortallity. Besides, in a hundred year's time, they all would have died anyways, so why not use them now? Unfortunately, it is THAT type of thinking that makes him evil. :D