What do you think?
Second, I know that Scoti Garbidis started a compilation of greyhawk relateted prestige class, such a list could be include with comments for each prestige...
While some are arguying on a "Greyhawk Liberation Front" on Paizo boards . . .
Can you please provide a link to this discussion on the Paizo message boards that you reference?
Can you please provide a link to this discussion on the Paizo message boards that you reference?
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/dnd/general/theSlowDemiseOfGreyhawk
the "Greyhawk Liberation Front" idea starts on the 109th post and is more a thrown idea than solid rock but still could have some potential if better elaborate.
The idea was to create a sourcebook for my own campaign which I could tweak when new information comes out. It is a massive undertaking since I'm including metaorgs, basic npc stats, and everything I can lay my hands on.
The problem is that even those countries about which there is little information run into 10+ pages of A4. Those with LGG or WotC supplements run into 60-150+ pages. And this is without maps or pictures so far.
Copyright and permissions to re-post is a huge problem, which is why I've made no attempt to do so! I figured it was a big enough job just collating and cross-referencing the information. By the time I'm done in 15 years' time, maybe some of the source material wont be covered any more!
Any project that might save me time, I'm up fo!
I'm still trying to figure out the best way to start this whole shindig, and what the best method would be to distribute the idea. I don't want to step on the toes of anything that Canonfire or similar sites have done, but the idea of a unified "front" intrigued me, so I tossed it out there.
While I'm not a moderator or anything on the site, I would like to suggest you might join Canonfire (www.canonfire.com, its free and immediate) and post to the message boards (forums) there. There is also a weekly (Thursdays, 8pm EST) Greychat that the owner of CF (one of the Living GH Gaz authors) hosts at Psionics.net in the Greytalk chatroom. There is usually a weekly announcement of the chat on CF and sometimes here. All are welcome. Others can probably tell you more.
Bleuch - I'm doing this very project for my own personal usage using every source material available, including LGG, mods, websites, Dungeon etc. I've been at it for 5 years now and I don't think I'm even 25% through. Since LGG produces new info every year, none of my gazeteer entries are up-to-date though
I'd like to see what you've done so far. I tried myself but got overwhelm by the quantity of material available, which range from pure greatness to low average quality. Sorting trough everything then translating to french (my players speaks only french
) as well a new job had me to set aside this project. But if we build a team with specific task then, IMO this should be more easier to do.Why not use Wikipedia to begin with? There's already a category for Greyhawk as well as a seperate entry
Not a bad idea, but I'd like to have a pdf document that could be handout to players instead of having them looking on the web for their info.
I'd like to see what you've done so far. I tried myself but got overwhelm by the quantity of material available, which range from pure greatness to low average quality. Sorting trough everything then translating to french (my players speaks only french
Hmmm - maybe we can help each other. My French is so poor that I gave up trying to translate the Ekibir site for my gazeteer. Maybe I'll scratch yours if you scratch mine... :P
Hmmm - maybe we can help each other. My French is so poor that I gave up trying to translate the Ekibir site for my gazeteer. Maybe I'll scratch yours if you scratch mine...
I won't say no, but I'd like to see if others would like to help elaborate the sourcebook, or should we all do our stuff each on our own...
There is no problem with posting a new ebook for Greyhawk, except many people do not accept what Living Greyhawk has done or written. Many people do not accept that anything after EGG is acceptable.
Lets go with everybody accepts the LGG and our world is static at 591. We wont increase the date any from that time period with things from LG. Then we're pretty much at our limits, except for posting the GH feats I & II from Dragon, the PrC's from Dragon/Dungeon/LGJ. So really all you're doing is compiling a Paizo created GH. Lets say that this is accepted because everybody loves Holian and Mona (with a little Kuntz, the other Las Vegas guy - the one that wrote that adventure in Dungeon, I even played ina few of his games, damn, Scott IIRC - all of the Age of Worms stuff, does the first Adventure Path really take place in GH or just generically in GH). But then you need to determine if those other WotC modules are placed n GH - Sunken Citadel, etc. Again, part of the problem is that some do see them as GH products and others don't.
Lets look at another possible probelm. Lets say we can get a complete collection of LG's. That's tough, trust me, I have almost 1k LG modules and I'm sure my collection is not complete (its not organized in the least). Only a half-handful of people have a complete collection, Circle of Six maybe. Then from there, we'd have to weed out information that is regional specific or LG specific, just details and adventure background. Say like the adventure says that the Head Inquisitor of the Pale is Siririous Black. That's something that we could take, as well as his class and stats. We could even take geographic information. But most of the module info itself would have to be removed.
this is a lot of work, heck, just having my 1000 LG modules in the same folder is a lot of work.
Next, you have the problem of exchanging information, and one person deciding that something isn't important and another belivng it is. Part of the problem I see in all this in comparing it to Athas - Athas had a very short printed lifespan. It also does not have a massive support system that is broken into factions (1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5e, generic). GenericHawk is the easist to use, since the LGG is that way. That's the best thing to do, but sometimes listing a NPC's stats are important.
In the end, I'll do what I can to help. I don't have time (full time student, dad to two Bi-polar teenagers, and I try to play D&D and D&D online (Adar & Thraskik server, Theocrat)) but I do have other resources (I did say 1000 modules).
Be Well. Be Greyhawk Savy!
For example compare Verbobonc in Oearth Journal and in LGG - these are different viscounties.
I think the safest method is to leave out LG information, keep it at 591, and include a section for references to official non-LG game elements from various sources (e.g. - Regional Feats from Dragon Magazine, various PrCs from 3e/v3.5 sourcebooks such as Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom or Warmages). Scotti Garbidis was already doing this with his PrC list. Fortunately enough, there are a lot of GH-related rules mechanics in the supplements published by WotC; we just don't have a sourcebook with which players can develop a greyhawk-specific character background and concept.
It's a shame we can't copy content directly from existing publications without violating copyright. WotC has everything they need to publish such a Player's Guide, but they are too afraid of raising awareness of Greyhawk as a viable campaign setting. Sorry, I'm digressing...
If anyone wants to advance beyond 591CY, an auxillary supplement could be developed, but I don't think it should be THE sourcebook in question.
I think the most important thing we need is a Player's Guide to Greyhawk. DM's are expected to obain multiple documents and reference them all, while players should be entitled to a one-stop resource that can allow them to sufficiently understand the premise and flavor of the setting. Of course, this doesn't take into account the out-of-print LGG, which is not available as a PDF.
Exactly what I had in mind, mostly a sourcebook for 3.x players who want to play in GH will find everything they need, common knowledge of the world, regional feats if we can get the right to copy them, a list of GH related prc's with a short background to help fit it into WoG. Descriptions of the races, with maybe skill bonuses if such a idea is approved by a rewiewing circle of greyhawk fans/authors/experts.
There is no problem with posting a new ebook for Greyhawk, except many people do not accept what Living Greyhawk has done or written. Many people do not accept that anything after EGG is acceptable.
I dont think, those who still play 1e or 2e or even EGG purist will disagree with such a product since it's not likely aimed at them, since, I believe, they've already adapted WoG to their own campaign. As for LG I do agree that there's too much info, and that unfortunatly the quality aint' the same from one scenario to an other... So I think that the best should to set the date on CY591 and build from there. We could even set the date to CY595-6 and use some minors events that could be interresting to add.
There is no problem with posting a new ebook for Greyhawk, except many people do not accept what Living Greyhawk has done or written. Many people do not accept that anything after EGG is acceptable.
Lets look at another possible probelm. Lets say we can get a complete collection of LG's. That's tough, trust me, I have almost 1k LG modules and I'm sure my collection is not complete (its not organized in the least). Only a half-handful of people have a complete collection, Circle of Six maybe. Then from there, we'd have to weed out information that is regional specific or LG specific, just details and adventure background. Say like the adventure says that the Head Inquisitor of the Pale is Siririous Black. That's something that we could take, as well as his class and stats. We could even take geographic information. But most of the module info itself would have to be removed.
In the end, I'll do what I can to help. I don't have time (full time student, dad to two Bi-polar teenagers, and I try to play D&D and D&D online (Adar & Thraskik server, Theocrat)) but I do have other resources (I did say 1000 modules).
Well, there is not a DM alive whose Greyhawk doesn't diverge from 'official canon' sooner or later! It is inevitable. In our campaign, Thrommel was rescued and Vecna hasn't made his bid for Godhood yet because I want the Pcs to play that module. That's why I'm in favour of having a format where there is a method for DM's to post the changes that have occurred in their own game worlds.
Blimey, if I had my hands on the LG mods I would HAPPILY weed out adventure information in favour of geographical, location, and NPC information. I've been begging for it for ages! I certainly don't agree with everything in LGG but taking that info is a lot easier than making it all up yourself.
You can either code historical entries so DMs can see which ones are LG specific, or have two separate listings one with, and one without, so DMs can choose. I don't imagine that location information is contentious and I think that Metaorg information adds flavour if you weed out the minutiae.
Step 1: Set up the wiki and arrange the categories (races, regions, religion, etc)
Step 2: Start adding the basic knowlegde and SRD-permited information
Step 3: Send the link to as many regional websites and yahoo groups as possible and tell them to further spread the links. Tell each region to add their history and info to wiki.
Step 4: Create a "Player's Guide" series of links, a list of relevant pages. Either from the above or newly edited ones.
There may be thousands of modules but there are dozens and dozens of people who are intimately familair with the modules, groups and information so getting them all together to add a little information shouldn't be that hard.
I may be new to Greyhawk but it sounds like a wiki is the way to go.
Step 1: Set up the wiki and arrange the categories (races, regions, religion, etc)
Step 2: Start adding the basic knowlegde and SRD-permited information
Step 3: Send the link to as many regional websites and yahoo groups as possible and tell them to further spread the links. Tell each region to add their history and info to wiki.
Step 4: Create a "Player's Guide" series of links, a list of relevant pages. Either from the above or newly edited ones.
There may be thousands of modules but there are dozens and dozens of people who are intimately familair with the modules, groups and information so getting them all together to add a little information shouldn't be that hard.
1. If we used a wiki, we might as well use the existing Wikipedia articles.
2. I'd rather have a printable/searchable PDF handout for my players.
Also, a general pdf for players would have to be vague unless you want to negate the purpose of taking points in Knowledge (Local) etc. I think there are probably quite a few resources out there for that sort of thing already but nuggets on wiki would certainly be suitable for that sort of thing.
The wikipedia authors include information from the Supplement I: Greyhawk from 1975 to the LGG from 2000, so the entries take these sources as "canon", obviously.
I don´t know if there is a legal issue with using the copyrighted names and content within wikipedia, but the entries are up for quite a while, so there seems to be no major problem. If I´m not mistaken, you are not allowed to copy & paste contents literally, but if you do your own writeup, then there is no problem.
I would recommend supporting the wikipedia project for greyhawk references, and not starting a new effort.
Editing the various entries to make a Players Guide is inevitable, I think. Even if you use the setting from 1998 and the Players Guide by Anne Brown, you might have to edit some entries just because they differ from your version of GH. So trying to make a *.pdf or whatever for all needs just won´t work, I´m afraid.
Stefan
I would recommend supporting the wikipedia project for greyhawk references, and not starting a new effort.
Stefan
I'd recommend Canonfire.com. Talks the talk and walks the walk.
I'd recommend Canonfire.com. Talks the talk and walks the walk.
Hell yes!
I'd recommend Canonfire.com. Talks the talk and walks the walk.
If I got this right, the idea behind canonfire is to expand the setting by fanwork, so, indeed, additional material would be at the right place there.
The wikipedia entries are more a base for the original information on the setting.
So, GV Dammerung, you are right there.
Stefan
I don't know how fair use would apply to a PG to Greyhawk e-book. I have a hunch the courts haven't a clue yet either.
Oggie
I don't know if I'll ever get my gaz finished or if I'll ever be able to share it. Since I've used lots of non-canon stuff, I think I'd get more grief if I did publish it.
Thinking about this though, one of the very time consuming tasks I've undertaken is preparing stat blocks for all the settlements. So far we have official blocks for Zelradton (Oerth Journal), Hardby, Tonnsberg, Istivin, Magepoint (Dungeon), Highport & Kalstrand (WotC web).
Here is a couple I've done (although I made up the npc stats):
Niole Dra (large walled capital city): Leadership conventional (Lord Mayor appointed by Court of the Land); Alignment LG, NG*, N, LN, CG; Population 25,000 (human 70%, gnomes 9%, half-elves 7%, elves 6%, dwarves 4%, halflings 2%, half-orcs 1%, other 1%); GP Limit 40,000gp; Assets 100,000,000gp;
Authority Figures: King Kimbertos Skotti (Rng15, LG); Lord Mayor Pugnace Dillip (Ari6, LN); Archmage Lashton (Wz17, ArM2, LN); the Guildfather (Rog18, NE), Guildmaster of Thieves.
Important Individuals: High Herald Thaddeus Pliq of Dilwych (Brd4, CN); Gwydion of the Twained Elm (Rog2, Brd6, Drd2, FcL1, NG), Old Lore Bard and Geoff's Ambassador
Zeir-I-Zeif: Walled Metropolis (Capital City); Leadership: Conventional (government appointed by the ruling sultan); Alignment: LN, N; GP Limit: 100,000gp; Assets: 217,500,000gp; Population: 43,500 (Human 88%, Orc 10%, Halfling 1%, Other 1%)
Authority Figures: Sultan Murad (Rog2, Fg13, LN), ruler; Okolloz Sayesh (Fg8, Wz11, N), the Grand Vizier; Feyin Cemul (Clcl9, N), Most Worthy Elder of the Mouqollad Consortium; Nur Karu (Rog6, Asn10, LE), the Matron Sultana; Pandhar Reis (Fg16, N), the Kapudan Pasha of Zeif’s Navy; and Deepshadow (Rog6, Ass5, LE), leader of the Thieves’ Guild.
Important Individuals: Tuerny the Merciless (Sor17, CE), leader of the Sign of the Red Talisman; Awan Mevet (Wz7, Lor6, N), the Royal Chamberlain; Teldartham Aga (F9, LN), orc captain of the Sultan’s personal guard; Pir Nerrim Qadi (Clrl4 LG), high priest of the Exalted Faith of Al’Akbar; Tariq (Fg9, N), the Sultan’s heir; Black Naubek (Sor18, Clc11, NE), the Grim Vizier; Vahtak (Rog10, NE), the deputy leader of the Thieves’ Guild; and the Mad Dog of the Desert (Sor14, Ass6, CE), an insane terrorist.
If anybody else is interested, maybe we could start off a database for Canonfire?
I'd recommend Canonfire.com. Talks the talk and walks the walk.
If and only if the people venturing to Canonfire! for their first time are politely reminded that it is not a 3.5e exclusive website. Although CF and OJ have done almost nothing lately to welcome players of other versions of D&D, I'd like to think that CF is still open us. A flood of misinformed visitors thinking the site is now simply the home of the GH3.5e sourcebook project wouldn't improve matters.
Why ruin the concept of it when you can easily create an independent wiki that you can then link to from wikipedia if neccesary?
I think most dms prefer their players not to have easy access to full npc information but you could have separate npc lists for 3.5 & 2e if necessary but I think most sensible dms personalise their npcs these days so converting to 2e and vice versa would usually be the least onerous of the tasks involved - actually converting to 3.5 is very onerous - thank heavens for Heroforge!