Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zmaj Mar 13, 2006 0:56:16	I did a google search and didn't see anything so I thought I'd bring it up. I know that the Shadow Templars are supposed to have gained arcane magic fast, but comparing the Templars with the Wizards I noted a possible balance issue. It may be intentional but if you compare each at level 15 (assuming Templar 5/Shadow Templar 10 and Wizard 5/Shadow Wizard 10) the Templar seems to outclass the wizard pretty easily. Base Atk: Wizard +7/+2 vs Templar's +8/+3 Fort Save: Wizard +4 vs Templar's +7 Ref Save: Wizard +4 vs Templar's +7 Wil Save: Wizard +11 vs Templar's +11 Hit Dice: Wizard 15d4 vs Templar 5d8+10d6 Spell wise Templars seem to edge out Wizards as well. I started the comparison by comparing a Wizard 5/Shadow Wizard 1 vsTemplar 5/Shadow Templar 1 or put more simply, a Wizards 6 to 15 vs a Templar's 1st to 10 arcane spell casting level. Templar 1 / Shadow 1: Templar and Wizard share the same number of 0 level spells, Wizard has 1 more 1st spell and access to 2nd and 3rd level spells. Templar 2 / Shadow 2: Templar surpasses the Wizard with 0 Level spells, the Wizard continues it's lead by 1 1st level and stays 2 spell levels ahead of the Templar. Templar 3 / Shadow 3: Templar progression partially catches up, Wizard remains only 1 spell level ahead. Templar 4 / Shadow 4: Templar 5 / Shadow 5: Templar 5/Shadow Templar 5 has for the first time the ability to cast the same level spells as a Wizard 5/Shadow Wizard 5 although the Templar only gets the ability via bonus spells at this level and has fewer spells per day for all but 0 level spells at this point. Templar 6 / Shadow 6: Templar and Wizard stay basically the same as level 5s Templar 7 / Shadow 7: Templat surpasses the Wizard in spell levels via bonus spells, equals or surpasses baseline wizard progression at every level (considering 1 Bonus spell to give 7th level spells to Templar) Templar 8 / Shadow 8: Templar surpasses or equals the Wizard at every spell level except 3rd and 4th. With Templar having a bonus spell here the Templar surpasses or equals at all levels, once again leaping 1 spell level ahead of the wizard. Templar 9 / Shadow 9: Templar at least equals and usually surpasses the Wizard at EVERY level, including access to 8th level spells as standard (wizard only having access to 7th) and with a bonus spell Templar having access to 9th level spells giving the Templar a 2 spell level advantage. Templar 10 / Shadow 10: Templar continues to equal or surpass the Wizard at all spell levels. The wizard is now only 1 spell level behind (no bonus spells here) In order for a Wizard to catch up a Templar the Templar must remain a Shadow Templar 10 while the Wizard reaches a caster level of 17 to catch up on the number of spells per day for 7th and 8th level spells. At caster level 18 the Wizard catches up with 6th and 9th level spells. To surpass the same level 10 Shadow Templar a Wizard must get to caster level 18 for 8th and 9th level spells and caster level 19 to surpass in 7th. A Wizard can never surpass the Shadow Templar in spell levels 1 to 6 once the Shadow Templar equals or overtakes the Wizard. The special abilities to compensate for all this? The Wizard gains Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll, one Wizard Bonus Feat, Shadow Jump (80ft with maxed out PrC) and the Templar gains Secular Authority, Sigil, and Turn/Rebuke Undead. Now I assume that since the Templar is casting arcane spells he'd have to give up his armor or suffer failure chance and that if said Templar started taking Wizard class levels they wouldn't stack (much like a Sorcerer/Wizard multiclass) but over all, I'd think that the Shadow Templar is a bit overpowered for the above reasons. I'd put all this in some nice tables, but I don't seem to be able to make them here and copy/paste from exel doesn't work. I ran into this play testing Dregoth's Accending and my step daughter testing the limits of her Shadow Wizard against Asthira and getting a nasty surprise.
#2 zmaj Mar 13, 2006 1:09:01	I only came up with this when it occured to me she might want to play a Shadow Templar next. She loves the black and Baltic and has been schemeing ways of releasing Andropinis or at least finding a way to let him grant spells from the black. I may look at dropping thier spell casting down a bit, either to a Wizards 1-10 progression or just reducing thier spell progression to max out spells per day at 3 or 4 per level and access to level 7 spells baseline with 8th level spells as bonus spells only. I want to make it powerful enough to make it worthwhile taking over going Templar ?/Wizard 5/Shadow Wizard 10, but not so powerful that it eclipses the Shadow Wizard itself. Anyone able to explain why Shadow Templars got such powerful spellcasting packed into 10 levels. As I said I did a google search but didn't find anything about it.
#3 jon_oracle_of_athas Mar 13, 2006 2:27:01	The Shadow Templar spell progression mimicks that of the Ur Priest (see Complete Divine / Book of Vile Darkness), so there is precedent. I tend to agree that the Ur Priest progression is rather broken (not to mention some of its other abilities). However, considering the Shadow Templar is mostly a class for ex-templars who have lost their spellcasting abilities, I think it is acceptable.
#4 bengeldorn Mar 13, 2006 2:42:10	Actually, I can't realy explain it, but give some of my thoughts concerning this. 1. You have to be an ex-templar of Andropinis. 2. Andropinis must have been imprisoned in the Black. To fullfill the 1. point is very easy and it is all in your (wit you I mean the PC who decides to take this class) control. Depending on in which time you play, fullfilling the 2. point is very easy or pretty hard, and it's not in your controll. BUT, both points together are very hard to fullfill, because you must be a templar of an appropiate level (at least 5th level) to the right time. So only when you make the right choice at the right time, you are able to become a Shadow Templar. In addition you have to know what is going to happen with Andropinis. I'm not sure whether your step daughter knows what will happen with Andropinis or not (my groupe has no idea what will happen in our game), but if she doesn't know Andropinis is gonna die then it seems ok, because she will be at least for 6 level behind other characters, in addition she probably won't have a high Int-score, because the templar key attribute is charisma. That means, she probably won't get the additional spell slots at higher levels. In addition to that her caster level will always be 5 levels behind a wizard/shadow wizard of the same level (her first 5 levels don't count, even if she had levels in a casting class before). No on the other hand, if Adropinis is allready imprisioned, there is no way to become a shadow templar, if you haven't been templar of Andropinis before. Once he is imprisioned, there is no way to become one of his templars (taking new levels as templar of Andropinis). If you take all this into count, then this class is probably balanced even if it gets higher spell levels earlier then a wizard/shadow wizard. If you still have problems with that, you could just increase the requirements, so that you must have at least 7 levels before you become a shadow templar. Edit: Jon allready replied, but maybe this one helps too.
#5 zmaj Mar 13, 2006 9:29:22	snip -- No on the other hand, if Adropinis is allready imprisioned, there is no way to become a shadow templar, if you haven't been templar of Andropinis before. Once he is imprisioned, there is no way to become one of his templars (taking new levels as templar of Andropinis). -- snip Is there a ruleing that there can be no new templars of Andropinis? I know he can't grant spells to his followers once imprisoned, but there could be an arguement made (and there has) that the older templars are training new templars in an underground movement to take back the city. The templarate could easily train replacement templars, soldiers, and the like preparing for the day of (and/or trying to speed op) the day of his release. They'd still retain all thier skills, weapons and armor training, and possibly thier sigils. They'd lost spellcasting and the turn/rebuke undead until Andropinis is freed or a way is found for him to grant power to his followers. Secular Authority isn't a divine power as much as a governmental one, so once (if) they retook the city they would regain that power. Underpowered yes, but they still have a great deal of knowledge that no one else has, and perhaps only taking a single level or two and multiclassing into something else... fighter? psion? It may be just class dipping but I wouldn't put it past my step daughter to play a strait templar till she qualifies. She'd make a great dwarf I tell ya. She's already got her mother and a couple of her mates ready to join her for a party. Looks like they're going for shadow templar, templar knight, a royal defiler/shadow wizard, psion, and possibly a silt cleric. Could be an interesting group if I draw up a story arc around it. Could be as fun as our Nibenay quicky (try DMing THAT one with your stepdaughter and a bunch of 16yr olds of various genders. I do believe that one brought in our largest crowd and thank all the sorcerer kings that my wife took it over. --edit Thanks for the info about the Ur-Priest, looked it over. Never liked the idea behind it so never took a good look at the mechanics before.
#6 elonarc Mar 13, 2006 10:36:30	Could be as fun as our Nibenay quicky (try DMing THAT one with your stepdaughter and a bunch of 16yr olds of various genders. I do believe that one brought in our largest crowd and thank all the sorcerer kings that my wife took it over. *giggles*
#7 jon_oracle_of_athas Mar 13, 2006 14:05:41	Is there a ruleing that there can be no new templars of Andropinis? No, but they would be without spells.
#8 bengeldorn Mar 14, 2006 2:26:02	Ok, this is going to be off-topic, but I'll do it anyway. Is there a ruleing that there can be no new templars of Andropinis? I know he can't grant spells to his followers once imprisoned, but there could be an arguement made (and there has) that the older templars are training new templars in an underground movement to take back the city. The templarate could easily train replacement templars, soldiers, and the like preparing for the day of (and/or trying to speed op) the day of his release. They'd still retain all thier skills, weapons and armor training, and possibly thier sigils. They'd lost spellcasting and the turn/rebuke undead until Andropinis is freed or a way is found for him to grant power to his followers. Secular Authority isn't a divine power as much as a governmental one, so once (if) they retook the city they would regain that power. According to the rules, an ex-templar looses all templar spellcasting abilites. It doesn't clearly states whether or not the sigil is included or not, but IMHO the sigil's abilities are lost too. The sigil serves as the templar’s Divine Focus, and also allows them to cast several spells outside of their standard allotment If you loose all spellcasting abilites, you also loose the sigil's spellcasting ability. Now comming to Turn or Rebuke undead. The rules don't say that you loose this ability, but IMHO you loose them too. When a templar reaches 3rd level, she is granted the supernatural ability to turn or rebuke undead by her sorcerer-king. So if the templar's sorcerer-king dies, he can't grant this ability, the logic conclusion would be, that this ability is lost. If the templar is abondend by his socerer-king, it doesn't seem logical that the sorcerer-king would continue to grant this ability to his templar. But again, this is my humble opinion. Then remains the templar's secular authorithy class feature. To be honest, I have hugh problems with the ability as it is now, but if you go by the current rules, then this ability would stay (although IMO Tyr's templar would loose most of its benefits). The reason, why I don't like this ability as it is now, is the mechanics (I'm not going further into details, unless someone is explicitly asking me to). There is only one thing I want to add, which may seen nitpicking, but if a sorcerer-monarch dies (or is imprisioned), you can't become one his templars, but a templar of the city-state. So if Andripinis is allready imprisioned in your campaign you won't be abel to become his templars, therefor you can't become an ex-templar of Andropinis, if you haven't allready been one of his templars, and therefor you can't fullfill the requirements for the shadow-templar PrC. It's like being a widower without ever having been married.
#9 zmaj Mar 14, 2006 3:30:14	There is only one thing I want to add, which may seen nitpicking, but if a sorcerer-monarch dies (or is imprisioned), you can't become one his templars, but a templar of the city-state. So if Andripinis is allready imprisioned in your campaign you won't be abel to become his templars, therefor you can't become an ex-templar of Andropinis, if you haven't allready been one of his templars, and therefor you can't fullfill the requirements for the shadow-templar PrC. It's like being a widower without ever having been married. I'll have to disagree there. It's sort of like a cleric's (non DS) god being killed. They may lose thier powers, but if they still believe in thier god, preach of his virtues, and all of that kinda thing, aren't they still clerics of said god? It's more of an institution (the templarete), headed by thier monarch or monarch's representative in my view. As for the widower without ever being married, true with Nibenay :-) but there are people in the world who consider themselves married even if they never had a church or government (or even both) reconize it, so it's possible. There are certain cultures where your considered married simply because two people say it, but that's even more off topic. Anyway, about the sigils, I was thinking of them more as a magical item, it's used as thier divine focus, but it has triggers for spells.
#10 jon_oracle_of_athas Mar 14, 2006 14:12:58	I'd rule the following if the SK is dead or otherwise "unreachable": 1. Templars lose their ability to cast spells. This would also apply to templar knights. 2. They would also lose the ability to rebuke/turn undead. 3. The sigil would still work. It is a magical item.
#11 zmaj Mar 14, 2006 14:40:25	I'd rule the following if the SK is dead or otherwise "unreachable": 1. Templars lose their ability to cast spells. This would also apply to templar knights. 2. They would also lose the ability to rebuke/turn undead. 2. The sigil would still work. It is a divine magical item. That's what I was thinking. Now to get story arc figured out for it.
#12 bengeldorn Mar 16, 2006 14:50:44	3. The sigil would still work. It is a magical item. Does this mean, that when someone "finds" a sigil, he would be able to use it?
#13 zmaj Mar 16, 2006 16:48:17	I'd think sigils are created for a specific person. No one else can use it. It's been awhile and I know some don't much like RAFoaDK(maybe extra letters in there) Hammanu could tell which templars were calling on him, I think through thier sigils. Perhaps it's got some of the templar's blood mixed in when it's created.