When the halfling clans go to a village, they take with them food and other items to sustain the chief, his family, and the advisors. Assuming the chief deems the offering adequate, he rewards them by bestowing upon them the rangerlike abilities that make halflings such capable hunters and stalkers.
Aside from using his powers to help his followers be good hunters, the chief also has the duty to defend his clans' territories from outside encroachment.
- considering that fluffy should shape the rules and not the contrary;
- considering that one could interpret the text in several ways.
My take is that the chief bestow upon his subjects some sort of blessings (be it through spells or powers) that would help them in the hunt. Think about some low level spells that could help (heal light wounds, sanctuary, bless, magic weapon, magic stones or else). Nothing like providing spells or granted powers.
Since Halfling chiefs tend to be druids or clerics, or at least have access to druidic or clerical magic from the tribal shaman, that's most likely what the reference is to.
Not according to the Box:
The chief resembles the sorcerer-king of the cities in that he is the absolute ruler of his territory (usually all the forest within fifty miles of his village), and in that he is a powerful wizard.
But, those are just my own feelings on the matter.
Not according to the Box:Originally Posted by Dark Sun Original Boxed Set
The chief resembles the sorcerer-king of the cities in that he is the absolute ruler of his territory (usually all the forest within fifty miles of his village), and in that he is a powerful wizard.
Er what the heck...page 11 of the original set says "...most often under the direction of their clerical leaders, the shaman witch doctors." And page 4 lists that they can't be either defilers or preservers...but illusionists for some unknown reason, go figure. More importantly, however, is that the Revised box set (which takes into account the "real" history and background of Dark Sun, as put forth in the Prism Pentad novels), says that halflings can't be wizards (pg. 8), and on page 15 "...These customs are often directed by each tribe's shamans, the elemental clerics or druids who hold positions of honor and presect above all other halflings." And, speaking of the Prism Pentad (as well as a brief blurb on pg. 16 of The Age of Heroes revised rulebook), it's made pretty clear that halflings, having predated wizardly magic, are unable to use it.
So, whatever part of the boxed set you got it from is contradicted elsewhere, and obviously wrong. :P
Of course, this assumes you're playing a 3e DS game where halflings can be wizards and such. If not then it doesn't really matter, although if you want to "stick to the storyline" it's pretty much a no-no to allow halflings to be wizards. The only canon example of one that I can think of would be Nok, but he could just as easily have been a high-level druid and/or cleric, although the info for Ktandeo's Cane from Psionic Artifacts of Athas sorta hints otherwise...but since that particular entry is all screwed up anyway (saying that Ktandeo is a halfling when he's not), and the cane is an artifact as well (and so may have been created a variety of ways, none of which necessarily had to involve a wizard, as likely as that may be), that still doesn't prove that even Nok was a wizard.
Oops, I'm starting to ramble again... *clicks Submit Reply*
Hehe, i was just trying to clear out some possible inconsistencies between the 2 boxed sets...
Remove the words "possible" and "2 boxed sets" and replace the latter with "published game material." Then add some tonic water, stir - don't shake - and pour into a chilled martini glass. Serving size: 1.
Perhaps (s)he uses the spell Imbue With Spell-Like Ability on them, that is essentially granting them spells.
yeah! perhaps that!
Or perhaps he creates a magical totem with a number of spells that can be activated once per day etc.... but only by the person the totem was created for.
Or that.
Either of them can explain this "bestowing" ability of the halfling chiefs...
Er what the heck...page 11 of the original set says "...most often under the direction of their clerical leaders, the shaman witch doctors." And page 4 lists that they can't be either defilers or preservers...but illusionists for some unknown reason, go figure. More importantly, however, is that the Revised box set (which takes into account the "real" history and background of Dark Sun, as put forth in the Prism Pentad novels), says that halflings can't be wizards (pg. 8), and on page 15 "...These customs are often directed by each tribe's shamans, the elemental clerics or druids who hold positions of honor and presect above all other halflings." And, speaking of the Prism Pentad (as well as a brief blurb on pg. 16 of The Age of Heroes revised rulebook), it's made pretty clear that halflings, having predated wizardly magic, are unable to use it.
So, whatever part of the boxed set you got it from is contradicted elsewhere, and obviously wrong. :P
Actually in the first box set it refferenced Halfling cheiftens as being illusionists (specifically preservers) in several locations throughout... page 23 is very specific about the fact that they are preservers and wizards (though later pages qualify this to state they can only be illusionist, which are a subclass of wizards. This is most likely a way to keep them from using evocation and conjuration magic which were unable to be used by illusionist at its time and actually fits with the later idea that Halflings could not wield magic due to predating it.) Not to mention the fact that there were numerous halfling illusionists in virtually every sourcebook and module that dealt with them.
In fact by the original box set, a halfling could easily become a 19th level illusionist/20+ level psioncist with high enough stats. Nok anyone?
And quoting revised rules gets no sympathy from me as personally I see that as the biggest piece of crap that was put out. It trashed so much in the setting to get it to fit into normal 2nd edition rules that I personally continued using the original box set for the most part for most of the time I played darksun.
BTW you took the information on page 11 out of context. it is talking about political disputes are handled through ritual and custom, most often under the direction of their clerical leaders, the shaman witch doctors. This is not talking about who leads the tribes just how they handle political disputes between halflings.... a significant difference. The chieftens by the novels and fluff dealt more with outside issues versus the internal ones.
Of course, this assumes you're playing a 3e DS game where halflings can be wizards and such. If not then it doesn't really matter, although if you want to "stick to the storyline" it's pretty much a no-no to allow halflings to be wizards. The only canon example of one that I can think of would be Nok, but he could just as easily have been a high-level druid and/or cleric, although the info for Ktandeo's Cane from Psionic Artifacts of Athas sorta hints otherwise...but since that particular entry is all screwed up anyway (saying that Ktandeo is a halfling when he's not), and the cane is an artifact as well (and so may have been created a variety of ways, none of which necessarily had to involve a wizard, as likely as that may be), that still doesn't prove that even Nok was a wizard.
Oops, I'm starting to ramble again... *clicks Submit Reply*
*sigh*
actually as I said above, there are numerous CANNON example of halfling illusionist (which are a subclass of wizard and in the case of halflings are almost always preservers) Heck there was even an extremely high level one in the Dragons Crown adventure. The only source that ever said that halflings could not be illusionists (perserver) was the 2nd edition box set... which was quite frankly the most flawed set of information produced, on athas. It tried to read into biased statements made by characters in the novels to form the rules of the world... and it did not do a good job of it. The specific statement from the novels could have just as easily meant that the halfings were not capable of wielding specific types of magic, ie evocation and conjuration that an illusionist cannot master, as the version they used in the revised box set.
So using this as the basis of your arguement does little good. Just one of my pet peeves, as I am a stickler for fluff and like to have all the systems fit with the actual fluff of the world. (Which quite frankly is one of my favorite ideas for a campaign world.)
p.s. what does IMO and IMHO and IRRC mean anyway? me still being a TOTAL newbie 'n' all :D
Wasn't it because the halflings are a blue age race that they can't become arcane spellcasters, merely because there was no arcane magic in the blue age. My group has always played it like that. And that Nok was "just" an illusionist...
p.s. what does IMO and IMHO and IRRC mean anyway? me still being a TOTAL newbie 'n' all :D
heh the IMO is In My Opinion, IMHO is In My Humble Opinion
The whole arguement on halflings not being able to use arcane magic comes from one line on page 280 ot the Cerulean Storm novel. And it was a statement made by the Oba.
"I don't believe this tale of yours," Rikus Said. "If Rajaat was trying to give the world back to the halflings, why did he make his champions human? Why didn't he use halflings?"
"He couldn't make them sorcerers," answered the Oba. "Because their race harkens back to the Blue age, before the art of sorcery existed,they cannot become sorcerers."
"You're lying," Rikus said. "I've seen halflings use magic."
"Elemental magic, yes - like Caelum's sun magic or Magnus's windsinging," said Sadira. "They draw their powers from the inanimate forces of the world: wind, heat, water, and rock. But normal sorcery draws its power from the life-force of plants and animals."
What is odd here is on page 289 of Verdant Passage it shows two halflings riding on giant dragonflies drawing energy from the forest like a preserver to cast spells in the test to see if the group was worthy to cast the spear.
Also throughout the Amber Enchantress novel it shows repeatedly Nok casting spells after drawing life-force from animals (specifically his halfling followers and Sadira) as he chased down Sadira. Throughout chapter 4 specifically... page 84 specifically shows Nok draining Sadira's life-force in their combat to power his spells.
So to be honest, the whole "halflings cannot be sorcerers" seems to be based on a single opinion as to why Rajaat did not make them his champions... by one of the champions.
By how the rules were when the system first came out, and by the fluff of what was actually DONE in the novels (not by a statement given by someone with an obviously biased point of view) it would seem at most halflings have issues with not being able to weild specific types of arcane magic. (namely evocation and conjuration as that is what illusionist were unable to cast in that version of AD&D) This is actually one of the key things that disgusted me with the revised system. they read into what was actually stated in the novels and changed the whole system due to it and to make it match AD&D 2nd edition... which really hurt the system.
p.s. what does IMO and IMHO and IRRC mean anyway? me still being a TOTAL newbie 'n' all :D
netlingo
Hi Seker! Long time no talk.
Ziiip, gone again.
netlingo
Hi Seker! Long time no talk.
Ziiip, gone again.
hehe thank you Pen ;)
yes I have been gone a while... RL called and I was working on my rpg stuff I am still writing.
totally revamped a few things in my system to make a better leveling system and to create a levelless/classless version of it as well. mainly was just annoyed due to the lack of feedback from my playtesters
oh yeah and on Nok being just an illusionist.... he was at the very least an illusionist (preserver)/psionicist by the novels as he was a master of the way... though not as strong as Kalak... in addition to his magic.
By how the rules were when the system first came out, and by the fluff of what was actually DONE in the novels (not by a statement given by someone with an obviously biased point of view) it would seem at most halflings have issues with not being able to weild specific types of arcane magic. (namely evocation and conjuration as that is what illusionist were unable to cast in that version of AD&D) This is actually one of the key things that disgusted me with the revised system. they read into what was actually stated in the novels and changed the whole system due to it and to make it match AD&D 2nd edition... which really hurt the system.
I agree completely with your feelings on the Revised Setting rules... I particularly disliked the "defilers draw spell power upon memorization" rule change. Hmm, so they just store all of this spell energy like batteries, eh? Also, weren't Evocation and Conjuration spells the favored spells of "Path Sinister" in 2nd edition? I believe that was introduced in Defilers and Preservers... which might explain why Rajaat didn't want halflings: they couldn't be effective defilers. (EDIT: No, it was Conjuration and Necromancy... but still, Conjuration would be a major part of the defiler's repertoire.)
Of course, I think one major point has been missed here: feral halflings of the Forest Ridge (PC halflings) and ancient halflings are two different things altogether... and I believe that this was Denning's original intent. The ancient halflings could not use magic because they were from the old world... but the feral halflings, the mutated form of halfling that came about when some of the original halflings left the Tower (and didn't become other races altogether), were not subject to such restrictions. Surely Rajaat would not have made feral halflings into his Champions under any circumstances, even if they COULD use magic... just like he wouldn't make Kreen into his Champions, even though they existed in the old world too.
I agree completely with your feelings on the Revised Setting rules... I particularly disliked the "defilers draw spell power upon memorization" rule change. Hmm, so they just store all of this spell energy like batteries, eh? Also, weren't Evocation and Conjuration spells the favored spells of "Path Sinister" in 2nd edition? I believe that was introduced in Defilers and Preservers... which might explain why Rajaat didn't want halflings: they couldn't be effective defilers. (EDIT: No, it was Conjuration and Necromancy... but still, Conjuration would be a major part of the defiler's repertoire.)
Of course, I think one major point has been missed here: feral halflings of the Forest Ridge (PC halflings) and ancient halflings are two different things altogether... and I believe that this was Denning's original intent. The ancient halflings could not use magic because they were from the old world... but the feral halflings, the mutated form of halfling that came about when some of the original halflings left the Tower (and didn't become other races altogether), were not subject to such restrictions. Surely Rajaat would not have made feral halflings into his Champions under any circumstances, even if they COULD use magic... just like he wouldn't make Kreen into his Champions, even though they existed in the old world too.
Interesting take on seperating out the feral halflings from the Rhulisti. The Rhual Thuan halflings of the Jagged Cliffs would be able to learn illusionist magic as well, although any of them doing it would be considered tainted by Rajaat. As they talk about the taint that came about in the swamp below the Jagged Cliffs from where Rajaat studied magic, or something, before he went to teach the other races.
From this line of thought however we are looking at the Halflings being prevented from casting conjuration magic at the very least through arcane means. (Evocation as well if we are going by the nature of the illusionist class from that time frame.) By what was written and presented. And that would have possibly made them weaker in arcane magic in Rajaats eyes.. hence he did not teach them defiling. But this is just suposition.
A few interesting things to think of on arcane magic, halflings, and Rajaat however.
1. Rajaat was working on discovering arcane magic at the base of the Jagged cliffs, the home of one of the few remaining halfling groups that retained at least some of the knowledge of lifeshaping. (note I state discovering not creating... as you are looking at a proccess that uses natural laws to make a change in magic... so it is not an act of creation... so while Rajaat is considered the first Sorcerer, he did not create magic... just discovered it. And in that case, it becomes a more accurate statement to say he is the first "recorded" creature to have discovered it.)
2. the Chieftans of the forest ridge were illusionists (preservers) by the rules in the original box set and in several of the modules/sourcebooks.
3. Halflings are described as not taking in new methods of doing things from non halflings... they are very specific of being very ritualized and focussed on their heritage in the descriptions.... so why would they have taken a whole new form of magic from Rajaat? (while individual halflings might learn magic, it seems odd that it became such an integrated part when it was something from an outsider.)
4. The Halfling servants of Rajaat became shadow giants... which is interesting as Shadow is one of the forms of illusion magic.
5. Arcane magic is based on the use of life force to power a change. Lifeshaping was the science of the halflings and their entire culture is around the Green (the living world). However the other magics of Athas are based on elemental powers... which makes an interesting similarity between the two philosophies.
taken together it makes some of the ideas of halflings and magic seem a bit strange.
My personal take for my own game is something like this.
Halflings had a limited form of arcane magic (ie illusionists ... either as an offshoot of the changes the tower made during the rebirth... or as a twisted reflection of lifeshaping that held over. Not actual lifeshaping so much as a control of the living creatures/plants.) prior to Rajaats discovery... and in fact Rajaat was studying the Halflings power which is how he discovered the 2 new forms of arcane magic, conjuration and evocation.
This actually goes a long way to explaining the damage to the swamp at the base of the Jagged Cliffs, as the changes wrought seem mostly like conjuration magic gone out of control.
Now the Halflings were unable to use these forms of magic as they are more of an outgrowth of the draining ability of arcane casters. (Conjuration and Evocation after all draw either energy or objects from another place.) And for the halflings draining to the point of defiling is anathma to the philosophies of the halflings... likely causing a phychological or possibly even a physiological block on being able to use those forms of arcane magic.
So while Rajaat is given the credit for discovering magic... in my games it is more accurate to say he expanded on the Halflings powers. Which gives us a more hidden nature to how magic came about. Which I preffer.... but again that is just in my games.
1) 1st box rules do not allow for triple classed illusionist/druid/psionicists.
2) From an older thread, we have information from someone claiming to have contact with Troy Denning, which may indeed be the case. He offers the following evidence:
"Nok was a high level mage/psionicist/druid, which gave him the equivalent of Preserver dragon magic (at a very low level)." -quoted from Troy Denning by “Lukasz” 2/01/05
One can surely debate exactly what this means and if what Luakasz offers is truly from Denning.
3) Nok bears an obsidian orb around his neck which evidences extreme power (although with little in the way of observable examples). Is this dragon magic? Is this somehow druidic or clerical magic? Is this some sort of life-shaping power (I doubt this severely). It seems very much like the same type of orb Ktandeo's cane bears. Indeed, in Sadira's last confrontation with Nok, when she is about to use Ktandeo's cane on the halfling chief, Nok snidely says to her "do not think to kill me with my own magic" (Amber Enchantress, 84).
4) Ktandeo's cane seems to bear powers much more akin to sorcerous magic rather than faith based. The powers utilized by the cane shed the skin off of targets, turning it into dust, or blast powerful pyrotechnics, or even crack open even King Kalak's certainly mighty abjurations. These are just a few examples. It is difficult to accept that they are clerical/druidic magics, especially since the powers portrayed would have to be more from the fire or lightning spheres, of which Nok is almost certainly not linked.
5) If Nok is an illusionist, again we have a problem, as illusionists do not have access to abjuration or invocation/evocation magic, schools of sorcery which are certainly utilized by Nok's cane. If Nok did not have access to such schools, he could not have created such effects for use by the cane.
6) By 1st box canon, halflings can only be illusionists.
7) In 2nd box rules, halflings cannot be wizards at all.
8) Regardless of what might be said in the first box, the Oba clearly states in the Cerulean Storm that halflings cannot be sorcerers. Troy Denning certainly made a point of this. I have included the passage:
"I don't believe this tale of yours," Rikus said. "If Rajaat was trying to give the world back to the halflings, why did he make his champions humans? Why didn't he use halflings?"
"He couldn't make them sorcerers," answered the Oba. "Because their race harkens back to the Blue Age, before the art of sorcery existed, they cannot become sorcerers."
----
To me, all this and more makes the entire case profoundly confused. I have a solution of sorts to this as far as 2nd edition AD&D goes, at least nearly as good a solution as can be hoped for, but even my own theory is not totally convincing for me. In the end, Nok is harmed slightly by these extremes in mechanical in-game contradictions.
If anyone is interested in my solution, do request this theory (and theory is all it can be, for now). If there is no stated interest, I shall hope to post it in a more involved essay in the future.
Any feedback or thoughts would be appreciated on this difficult issue.
Interesting take on seperating out the feral halflings from the Rhulisti...
Thanks. You bring up a lot of excellent points as well. When I first got into Dark Sun many years ago, I didn't care much for the halflings as illusionists thing, and agreed more with the notion that no halflings could use magic. I guess I saw it as a cheap way for TSR (not necessarily Denning and Brown) to put in a "substitute" for gnomes... and for some reason I have always disliked gnomes (Gallard would love me for this). I have since changed my opinion (but not about gnomes), partly due to my preference for the original boxed set over the revised one, but also because I feel that it fits the flavor of the setting more. You brought up several of the points that I would have for this argument, so I won't rehash them.
A further point to why Rajaat would not have selected feral halflings even though they COULD use magic: they are mutations. They are not part of the old world, even though they are the most closely related of the so-called "new races" (not to be confused with the New Races like Magnus) to the original halflings of the Blue Age. Rajaat saw them as abominations, a savage imitation of the true race of Athas.
So while Rajaat is given the credit for discovering magic... in my games it is more accurate to say he expanded on the Halflings powers. Which gives us a more hidden nature to how magic came about. Which I preffer.... but again that is just in my games.
Again, I agree. I always had it in my head that magic was some sort of twisting of the life-shaping of the Rhulisti. Rajaat tinkered and experimented until he found the spark in all things that would lead to power... but it somehow came from the ways of the ancient halflings. This could explain why Rajaat was eventually led to try to tap into Athas itself. This could also explain why the halflings couldn't tap life in the ways that sorcery required... maybe it was such a change from their own ways that they could not do it, as they were quite set in their ways as you pointed out.
If you ignore parts of the revised boxed set and official timeline alot of contradictions go away or are minimised.
5) If Nok is an illusionist, again we have a problem, as illusionists do not have access to abjuration or invocation/evocation magic, schools of sorcery which are certainly utilized by Nok's cane. If Nok did not have access to such schools, he could not have created such effects for use by the cane.
We also (to my knowledge) have no proof that Nok actually created the cane himself... "Nok's Cane" could mean "the cane owned by Nok." [EDIT: Brain-lapse. It's actually called KTANDEO'S Cane, but Ktandeo obviously did not create it.] I recently re-read the Pentad (within the past month), and I don't recall anything definitively stating that Nok created the cane himself... but I could be wrong.
8) Regardless of what might be said in the first box, the Oba clearly states in the Cerulean Storm that halflings cannot be sorcerers. Troy Denning certainly made a point of this. I have included the passage:
"I don't believe this tale of yours," Rikus said. "If Rajaat was trying to give the world back to the halflings, why did he make his champions humans? Why didn't he use halflings?"
"He couldn't make them sorcerers," answered the Oba. "Because their race harkens back to the Blue Age, before the art of sorcery existed, they cannot become sorcerers."
On the one hand, just because that is what the SKs believe doesn't mean it is the truth. On the other, we also have to make a distinction between feral halflings and ancient halflings (as I said earlier). I do recall something to that effect somewhere in the Pentad (although I cannot recall specific page numbers), something that was said when the heroes were learning about the Blue Age and how halflings ruled the world... they were incredulous because they knew only of the feral halflings.
To me, all this and more makes the entire case profoundly confused. I have a solution of sorts to this as far as 2nd edition AD&D goes, at least nearly as good a solution as can be hoped for, but even my own theory is not totally convincing for me.
Confusion seems to be a common thread for many aspects of Athas :D I'd like to hear your thoughts on the issue as well. My own personal belief is that modern halflings and ancient halflings are two different things. It's kind of like comparing cavemen and modern man, except in reverse.
It is my hope to address such difficult issues as Nok in the future, but for now let me provide some basic factoids that may help the discussion:
1) 1st box rules do not allow for triple classed illusionist/druid/psionicists.
true... writers license may be used in some cases however
2) From an older thread, we have information from someone claiming to have contact with Troy Denning, which may indeed be the case. He offers the following evidence:
"Nok was a high level mage/psionicist/druid, which gave him the equivalent of Preserver dragon magic (at a very low level)." -quoted from Troy Denning by “Lukasz” 2/01/05
One can surely debate exactly what this means and if what Luakasz offers is truly from Denning.
The veracity of the quote or intention could be discussed... it may have been meant a mage(illusionist)/psionicist of high level that follows the preserver path (the same path a druid follows).... as there was no druid specific magic used in the novels by Nok.
3) Nok bears an obsidian orb around his neck which evidences extreme power (although with little in the way of observable examples). Is this dragon magic? Is this somehow druidic or clerical magic? Is this some sort of life-shaping power (I doubt this severely). It seems very much like the same type of orb Ktandeo's cane bears. Indeed, in Sadira's last confrontation with Nok, when she is about to use Ktandeo's cane on the halfling chief, Nok snidely says to her "do not think to kill me with my own magic" (Amber Enchantress, 84).
The way the life draining is described by the Orbs on the cane and the one Nok wears is identical to their description of the drain by the SK's in the novels... And it is used to power spells and spell like effects... hence it would be a form of dragon magic. (or something similiar) It is in no way described like the powers of druidic or elemental magic. And Nok does indicate that he created them and that it is his magic, so the idea that he created it is supported.
4) Ktandeo's cane seems to bear powers much more akin to sorcerous magic rather than faith based. The powers utilized by the cane shed the skin off of targets, turning it into dust, or blast powerful pyrotechnics, or even crack open even King Kalak's certainly mighty abjurations. These are just a few examples. It is difficult to accept that they are clerical/druidic magics, especially since the powers portrayed would have to be more from the fire or lightning spheres, of which Nok is almost certainly not linked.
agreed
5) If Nok is an illusionist, again we have a problem, as illusionists do not have access to abjuration or invocation/evocation magic, schools of sorcery which are certainly utilized by Nok's cane. If Nok did not have access to such schools, he could not have created such effects for use by the cane.
actually illusionist do not have conjuration and invocation/evocation. And that is easily worked around..... the shadow magic subschool of illusion allows you to duplicate conjuration and or evocation spells with just a slighlty less real effect.... but even a lessened effect cast by a powerful caster will destroy your opponents. And in the novels Nok seemed to indicate that he would have problems being able to fight a dragon in magic or the way.
6) By 2nd box canon, halflings can only be illusionists.
I think you mean 1st box
7) In 3rd box rules, halflings cannot be wizards at all.
you mean 2nd box as there were only 2 box sets, and this change was made due to the passage in cerulean stomr I mentioned earlier and to bring dark sun more in line with 2nd edition ruels most likely.
8) Regardless of what might be said in the first box, the Oba clearly states in the Cerulean Storm that halflings cannot be sorcerers. Troy Denning certainly made a point of this. I have included the passage:
"I don't believe this tale of yours," Rikus said. "If Rajaat was trying to give the world back to the halflings, why did he make his champions humans? Why didn't he use halflings?"
"He couldn't make them sorcerers," answered the Oba. "Because their race harkens back to the Blue Age, before the art of sorcery existed, they cannot become sorcerers."
Exactly, the quote from page 280 I mentioned above and quoted. However this is a quote that is based on the OPINION of the person speaking so is not nessecarily fact. And in fact it goes against the concept of Nok and that most halfling chiefs BY THE RULES were illusionists (preservers)... unless she is meaning that he could not make them full sorcerers.. ie there was some nature that hampers them from learning all forms of magic.
----
To me, all this and more makes the entire case profoundly confused. I have a solution of sorts to this as far as 2nd edition AD&D goes, at least nearly as good a solution as can be hoped for, but even my own theory is not totally convincing for me. In the end, Nok is harmed slightly by these extremes in mechanical in-game contradictions.
If anyone is interested in my solution, do request this theory (and theory is all it can be, for now). If there is no stated interest, I shall hope to post it in a more involved essay in the future.
Any feedback or thoughts would be appreciated on this difficult issue.
heh I have spent alot of time working over all the aspects of this and have helped on a writeup of Nok for 3.5 and have been trying to work all this through for my own Dark Sun D20 modern version. It is an intersting issue, that would have never been an issue except for the junk that was added in to the revised setting confusing everything.
We also (to my knowledge) have no proof that Nok actually created the cane himself... "Nok's Cane" could mean "the cane owned by Nok." [EDIT: Brain-lapse. It's actually called KTANDEO'S Cane, but Ktandeo obviously did not create it.] I recently re-read the Pentad (within the past month), and I don't recall anything definitively stating that Nok created the cane himself... but I could be wrong.
well there was the passage on page 84 of the Amber Enchantress where Nok says:
"Do you think to kill me with my own magic?"
When Sadira was trying to use the magic from the cane to fight Nok in the final controntation between them.
That kind of pretty strongly points to the fact that it was his power.
not to mention on page 278 of the Verdant Passage Nok say the following to Sadira about the cane:
Nok narrowed his eyes."I made this for Ktandeo. He would not have given it to an impudent young women."
"It was his dying act," Sadira said, regarding the halfling in a new light. Anyone that could make such an item was no ordinary savage.
Thus, I hope you agree with me a little more Seker that the Nok-as-an-illusionist thesis is a difficult one to support. I myself favor 1st box as canon, and I am well aware of the halfling illusionist precedents in adventure modules as well as in the first box rules, but Nok's powers in the novels at least do not seem to match the mechanics well enough. Illusionary magic almost certainly could not have cracked Kalak's defensive shell, and again, it seems quite obvious to me that Denning did not have illusionary magic in mind for Nok at all, as it is never suggested in the PP, and therefore it seems apologetic to me to infer Nok's illusionist nature simply because that is what the 1st box allows, to state this again.
I must also add that, although I find it difficult to swallow myself, the door should be left somewhat open for Nok's powers being "priestly". Again, I disagree with this possibility, but I must consider the weaker logic of those who would suggest that Nok's evidenced powers are priestly in nature. Caelum's sun spells for instance are extremely powerful and destructive throughout the series, and indeed the power words for Ktandeo's cane seem very druidic in nature. Still, especially because of the obsidian orbs' presence, it seems to me more acceptible to interpret these powers as sorcerous.
As to further matters, I certainly side with many of the findings you posted early in this thread seker. I think it is useful to investigate them some however. You mention the halfling dragonfly riders on 289,VP, but I would like to point out that one could argue (although I do not necessarily agree with the argument) that the "magic" collected by these halflings was not sorcerous at all, but rather druidic or clerical. In arguing this, I draw as evidence the sun clerics Caelum and Rkard, who hold their palms up to the sun to collect their spells much as Sadira does. It could be argued that the halflings are collecting energy from the forest (spirit of the land, elements, etc.), and indeed, this image of priestly collecters of energy (who do so by drawing their hands towards the ground as do wizards) is provided in several other books set in the Dark Sun world besides the PP, such as the Tribe of One series etc. Certainly invisibility, as evidenced by the halfling spellcaster, seems sorcerous, but then again, one could argue that invisibility could be possible via priestly magic (although there are no spells to support this [invisibility to animals would not fool our PP heroes]).
This issue is especially important because, if the halfling dragonfly riders are sorcerous illusionists, as you seem to argue seker, we have a powerful contradiction with the now oft cited rebuttle the oba offers in the CS, for we would have sorcerous halflings even though we are told later that there can be no such thing.
What do we do about this contradiction? You have offered seker that the oba is somehow misinformed concerning this matter. Another way to deal with this is that the halflings so concerned are rather priestly in nature.
Unfortunately I am not often much convinced by the "lying SM" theories often posited in this forum. The oba lying to the heroes at that part of the CS makes no sense to the story as it is, and indeed, her rebuttle must be sound, for if it is not, Rikus' contention would hold true, and indeed we would be in a quandry as to why Rajaat did not make his champions from halflings. The idea that halflings changed somehow over the millennia does not sit well with me as an explanation for illusionist halflings, as this is inferred nowhere throughout the novels. Nor do I think Denning thought about this non-sorcerous statement as much as some of us would prefer. Rather everthing in my mind seems to point to Denning writing the oba's explanation as a very simply statement of fact on Denning's part, as indeed we must admit that the PP was, however much we may enjoy it, somewhat simplisticly (and even carelessly, at times?) written.
If this is all the case, we are left with either a somewhat serious error on Denning's part, or somehow, the Nok/halfling wizard issue made sense to Denning.
I have continued this discussion too long and too chaotically to go much further at this time, but let me offer some final notes.
1) Seker has noted the "fluff" concept, which should be seriously considered. Denning admitted to breaking from game mechanics in favor of the story, even though he liked adhering to the mechanics when possible. It is thus then possible that the Nok problem was simply a non-issue for Denning himself.
2) The concept of a misinformed oba seems dubious to me, as even if she were misinformed, Rikus' contention would still need dealing with, and if the halflings were indeed, contrary to what the SMs think, actually capable of sorcery, we would still have the question: why did Rajaat not make halfling champions?
3) For Denning there may have been no contradiction. Nok may have been a special case or, as I have opened the possibility, not a sorcerer at all.
4) I myself support a special case scenario. Unfortunately I must end my post, but my "solution" (which has its own problems and concerns) offers a radical set of circumstances:
Nok (VP, 278) suggests he "is" the forest. Long story short, I offer the version that Nok was originally a psionicist/druid halfling who rose to 21st/21st, becoming merged with the spirit of the land, possibly of the whole Forest, on an introductory level. Thus, as a 21st level spirit of the land, he may have been able to break dual class limitations as a special case, and rise to a 20th or 21st level preserver (general subclass, not as an illusionist), who would, upon reaching such levels, be able to draw life energy if he held obsidian orbs. He might have dual classed so in the hopes of one day having the power to challenge/defend himself against SMs and the Dragon.
I offer my theory surely, but this theory only happens to fit later developed mechanics.
Denning I think had simply what the quote of Denning by Lucazs had in mind: a halfling druid/psionicist/preserver who simply, and as far as game mechanics are concerned, inexplicably, was capable of summoning life energy out of animal life. To Denning, it may indeed have been as simple a matter as that, as nearly everything points to this simple conclusion.
Good luck with this difficult problem seker. You seem to me to be handling this issue well. I hope some of my points may be of some use to you in your write ups. Must go...
Note: Pardon my laziness on the restricted schools issue. You are unfortunately incorrect as to restricted conjuration spells however, as the full list of schools Nok would likely be restricted to as an illusionist in 2nd edition would be: necromancy, invocation/evocation and abjuration. The school of conjuration is not restricted to illusionists.
To me, this seems best explained simply be the fact that Troy Denning decided not to have Nok fight against Kalak directly, as this would have spoiled the book, and taken the story away from our favorite heroes.
An apologist may have another view however. Despite all his powers, Nok may have decided his involvement would be in any case disastrous. For instance, even if Nok helped the heroes or even acted on his own, had Nok actually succeeded and killed Kalak, his involvement in the affair would almost certainly be marked, and therefore, word of his involvement might spread to the other SMs and almost certainly to Borys, who would have almost certainly seen Nok as a being who needed to be put down and punished. Nok could not have allowed such a thing to happen, for in his mind he is the defender of the forest, and even if this were not the case, the Dragon's wrath would in all likelihood have blasted his precious Forest as well. It would have been a disaster. And this if Nok succeeded. If Nok failed in an assassination of Kalak, Kalak would almost certainly have become aware of him, and as a full Dragon, would have easily defeated Nok if he were still alive and then of course destroy his Forest or a great portion of it etc.
For Nok, he might have had no choice but to provide 3rd party heroes with his Heartwood spear and Ktandeo's cane. Success on the heroes' part would have been positive for him, and failure on the heroes' part would not have been so easily traced back to him had he gone himself. Indeed, it may have been Nok's intention to let the whole affair pass (had not the heroes showed up at his village), hoping that Kalak would not, as he predicted would happen, cross the Ringing Mountains and destroy his verdant home.
I offer this as something to consider.
There is no way around the halfling-clan-chief-illusionist-halflings-can't-be-wizards problem! It is simply a stark and messy contradiction on the canon writers' part that seems very difficult to deal with in any neat and fully satisfying way.
No, he wanted things as they were before. He had to use someone else, humans, with thier short lives, natural tendencies for conquest and power, easily manipulated.
Magic was discovered in the Green Age, after humans and just about every other race had been created. By the logic of Halflings came before the time of magic, so too would the humans, dwarves, elves, and others. He just didn't want to change halfling nature. He didn't even want the majority of halflings to know what was happening in the Tyr region, he protected them, telling his Champoins to stay away from them and the places they inhabited.
Rajaat simply told his champoins halflings couldn't use arcane magic, probably just before they imprisoned him. Rajaat is a master minipulater, he planned for things far in advance. Even the surprise rebellion might not have been totally a surprise. But that's another bit all together.
not to mention on page 278 of the Verdant Passage Nok say the following to Sadira about the cane:
Yeah, you're right. It had actually been a while since I read V.P... I re-read it several months ago, but I then re-read the other four books within the past month. Of course, we COULD throw in the "lying SM" train of thought and apply it to Nok as well, but that would just be silly. I think Denning uses dialogue to provide information to the reader through means OTHER than just straight exposition, which is a pretty common thing to do. That applies to the Oba's quote and every other.
There is no way around the halfling-clan-chief-illusionist-halflings-can't-be-wizards problem! It is simply a stark and messy contradiction on the canon writers' part that seems very difficult to deal with in any neat and fully satisfying way.
Just like so many other facets of Athas...
Honestly, I can see it working out in a somewhat satisfactory manner in many different ways.
- My cynical side believes that halflings were allowed to be illusionists in the original box in an attempt to provide a substitute for gnomes and bring the game more in line with "traditional" D&D. This was a common thing in the planning of DS according to Denning and Brown, as TSR didn't feel that they could market "a world without elves."
- My practical side buys into my "feral halflings and ancient halflings are different" argument. I think this is what Denning intended, especially since he has stated that he planned the "Athas belonged to the halflings" plot twist specifically because it seemed the most improbable. The readers had only seen the feral halflings, so it seemed impossible that the world had belonged to them... but the reader later learns the difference.
- Many of the theories brought up here have been good ones as well, very solid and interesting to consider.
But honestly, in the end, we must do what we have already done for so many aspects of our beloved Athas: write it off as an inconsistency and approach it how we feel best benefits our own campaigns. There really is no clear-cut answer, and we can all make good cases for our own personal theories. The fact of the matter is that it is an inconsistency and will never be "officially" resolved.
Then there's the idea that Nok has "joined" with the land and has gained extra powers as a Spirit of the Land of sorts.
And he *does* have at least one obsidian orb, which the PP showed could allow pretty much anyone to use "dragon magic".
And, just like the Oba could lie, or have distorted perceptions of things, so could Nok - from his point of view dragon magic might be "his magic" because it pulls energy from animal life, which he is able to do as well...but possibly as some sort of advanced nature magic rather than arcane magic. Something along the lines of "all advanced spellcasting relies on animal-life energy, regardless of whether it is divine or arcane."
That still doesn't resolve other contradictions...but IMO it at least makes the idea of him *not* being a wizard a little easier to swallow.
One thing to bare in mind re: Nok-as-non-wizard is that, by 2nd ed mechanics, divine magic pulled from the elemental planes, and gave clerics and druids access to a good deal of spells (especially destructive ones) that are wizard-only in other game worlds. Druids got it even better, since they could get access to 2 different spheres, and IIRC (don't have the 2nd ed DS books handy) they got either increased access to their existing spheres or access to new spheres at high levels. So, excepting the problem of Nok draining life-energy from animals, he could have pulled off destructive invocation/evocation spells if he was a druid (and/or cleric) with access to the correct elemental spheres.
Or there's Zmaj's (and others', I'm sure) idea that it was just Rajaat lying and/or trying to keep the halflings "natural" (in his mind) so he could truly restore everything back to the way it was in the Blue Age. All in all, that's probably the best explaination for all this.
Of course, I think one major point has been missed here: feral halflings of the Forest Ridge (PC halflings) and ancient halflings are two different things altogether... and I believe that this was Denning's original intent. The ancient halflings could not use magic because they were from the old world... but the feral halflings, the mutated form of halfling that came about when some of the original halflings left the Tower (and didn't become other races altogether), were not subject to such restrictions. Surely Rajaat would not have made feral halflings into his Champions under any circumstances, even if they COULD use magic... just like he wouldn't make Kreen into his Champions, even though they existed in the old world too.
Interesting idea but from my part and if I want to stick to cannon material. Both sub-races (from the Rhulisti) are the same. The feral halflings were never ''touched'' by the effect of the Pristine tower. (it is not mentionned anywhere in the books) They are feral simply because, for various reasons, they rejected or manly lost their ancient ways.
IMO they still cant perform wizardry magic. They may have learn to trick their nature by pretending to do so by illusions but that is all. In my book Illusion magic is not as powerfull as the real thing.
As for Nok... well I decided to cheat the inconsistancies and make Nok a elfling (halfling/elf) and no one alive knows about it since his elf side is only in its blood thus nothing apparent. His father was an elf (in my campaign)
The usual motivation that I see for trying to address the sudden ability for halflings to be wizards is that it contradicts statements made about Rajaat's reasons for not choosing halflings to be the champions. Reasons which, you'll note, were never expressed by Rajaat himself, but always ascribed through someone else's point of view.
It doesn't have to be about the "lying" SK. It could just be that the SK is misinformed, or drew his/her own conclusions, after discovering Rajaat's true plans. That opinion could be drawn from seeing how primitive the halflings had become -- in a SKs mind, learning to become a wizard took academies and years of study. It could be simple arrogance in beliving that the increasingly primitive halflings were incapable of the study and devotion required to learn wizardly magic. That doesn't make it true for all halflings, of course.
For that matter, Rajaat could have refused to teach magic to the halflings, beliving that they should remain "untainted" (in his mind) by anything that had come after the blue age. Being the (supposedly benevolent) discoverer of magic, and the first sorcerer, he could have easily spread the belief that halflings were unsuited to learn magic.
And, Rajaat can have a huge number of reasons for not making the halflings the core of his cleansing war armies, without ascribing any fundamental deficency to them.
- He didn't want them corrupted with a racial memory and tradition of war, as would come about through a thousand years of genocide. It's the "not corrupting" the heirs to the world argument.
- Wars kill people. If he was going to turn the world over to the halflings, he'd rather avoid decimating the popluation ... give the halflings years of peace and prospertity, let their numbers grow to fill in the empty spaces left when his armies wipe out entire empires.
- Perhaps a level of caution. What if the plan doesn't work? At least this way, it's the humans who'd be wiped out in retaliation for a failed genocide, and not his precious halflings.
- Humans are more easily manipulated, don't live as long, reproduce faster, possibly the most power hungry ... humans live shorter lives than any other "pureblood" race on athas, so the promise of immortality to his champions, and the jealousies of the rank and file are effective levers.
The Oba's response ... she may have simply never learned the difference between the propganda that Rajaat spread -- Not entirely unlikey, if you consider that halflings rarely leave the forest ridge, and the popluation of halflings in the tablelands is primarily slave, without access to the materials needed to learn wizardry ... Of course, that's kind of thin. So, maybe when she said "He couldn't make them sorcerers," answered the Oba. "Because their race harkens back to the Blue Age, before the art of sorcery existed, they cannot become sorcerers." ... This doesn't necessarily mean physical or mental incompatability, but can be read to mean that it was incompatable with the plan.
Seker, you have annotated my posting almost totally to my agreement, and yes those were mistakes with the 2nd and 3rd box confusions, which you amended most properly. I must disagree with the possibility you mentioned however considering Nok and shadow magic. Nowhere to my knowledge is shadow/illusionary magic inferred in the PP concerning Nok, and it seems to me difficult to accept that Ktandeo's cane blasted apart Kalak's abjuration magic in the Verdant Passage during the assassination attempt in the arena with some sort of "shadow" dispel magic or the like (although I suppose it is possible...)... indeed, "dispel magic" itself is an abjuration spell to which Nok would not have had access. Rather on the contrary, I must insist that the powers displayed at least from Ktandeo's cane are certainly not illusionary, as too many people truly die and too many extremely physical effects occur, with regards to the cane, for the effects to be illusury. Many examples could be provided to support this, which I need not cite here. Most importantly though is the fact that, again, the PP never hints in the slightest, to my knowledge, that any of the effects from Ktandeo's cane are illusory or associated with shadow magic, and thus the inference of an illusionist Ktandeo's cane is apologetic in my view (although again I suppose not impossible...).
shadow magic was just a quick way to solve the inconsitency.... However assuming what the cane did was just a dispel magic would be innaccurate as well. As every spell effect from the cane seemed to be a new spell. And spell research in 2nd ed (btw good catch, I kept mixing up the 1st ed illusionist restricted schools and the 2nd... first edition illusionists were more like 3.5 bards spell wise.) was the main way for specialists to get around the limitations of their prohibited schools as they could research spells using the schools they had access too that could cause a simliar effect.
for example I could create a lightning bolt spell out of invocation/evocation (classic manner), conjuration (from storm cloud), or even transmutation (transforming partially to gain the ability of a behiir/blue or bronze dragon) just off the top of my head... just by how the spell is created.
And as all the spells in the cane were new anyway... it would be easy to make them whatever school you wanted so that does not prevent him from being an illusionist.
In fact at no point in the novels I can recall was he ever seen casting a spell that was not on the illusionist list, or a totally new/researched spell.
Thus, I hope you agree with me a little more Seker that the Nok-as-an-illusionist thesis is a difficult one to support. I myself favor 1st box as canon, and I am well aware of the halfling illusionist precedents in adventure modules as well as in the first box rules, but Nok's powers in the novels at least do not seem to match the mechanics well enough. Illusionary magic almost certainly could not have cracked Kalak's defensive shell, and again, it seems quite obvious to me that Denning did not have illusionary magic in mind for Nok at all, as it is never suggested in the PP, and therefore it seems apologetic to me to infer Nok's illusionist nature simply because that is what the 1st box allows, to state this again.
As I said above, nothing he actually cast himself would be outside the provence of an illusionist, the cane is another matter... but again all the spells in it seem to be researched spells so we have no way of knowing what school they were actually of.
I must also add that, although I find it difficult to swallow myself, the door should be left somewhat open for Nok's powers being "priestly". Again, I disagree with this possibility, but I must consider the weaker logic of those who would suggest that Nok's evidenced powers are priestly in nature. Caelum's sun spells for instance are extremely powerful and destructive throughout the series, and indeed the power words for Ktandeo's cane seem very druidic in nature. Still, especially because of the obsidian orbs' presence, it seems to me more acceptible to interpret these powers as sorcerous.
I agree there is a "possibility" of it being priestly magic.... (as anything is possible as neither you nor I wrote the novel.) but to be honest it just does not fit at all... given that everything else in the system points to it being arcane. In fact I find it hard to swallow that Nok could even have levels of druid at all given his actions and his disregard for his own followers and all other animal life... he really seemed closer to a defiler that just chose to use animal life only to me... but that is just me.
As to further matters, I certainly side with many of the findings you posted early in this thread seker. I think it is useful to investigate them some however. You mention the halfling dragonfly riders on 289,VP, but I would like to point out that one could argue (although I do not necessarily agree with the argument) that the "magic" collected by these halflings was not sorcerous at all, but rather druidic or clerical. In arguing this, I draw as evidence the sun clerics Caelum and Rkard, who hold their palms up to the sun to collect their spells much as Sadira does. It could be argued that the halflings are collecting energy from the forest (spirit of the land, elements, etc.), and indeed, this image of priestly collecters of energy (who do so by drawing their hands towards the ground as do wizards) is provided in several other books set in the Dark Sun world besides the PP, such as the Tribe of One series etc. Certainly invisibility, as evidenced by the halfling spellcaster, seems sorcerous, but then again, one could argue that invisibility could be possible via priestly magic (although there are no spells to support this [invisibility to animals would not fool our PP heroes]).
True the appearance could be given for them being druids even (if you go by Abbey's novels on how druids get their magic... though this is another inconsitency) but the spell they cast was one on the wizard/illusionist list.... unless we say they researched their own druid spell .... but then again only high level casters did research in 2nd ed.... so unless we wanted all the halflings there really high level this does not make too much sense.
This issue is especially important because, if the halfling dragonfly riders are sorcerous illusionists, as you seem to argue seker, we have a powerful contradiction with the now oft cited rebuttle the oba offers in the CS, for we would have sorcerous halflings even though we are told later that there can be no such thing.
ahhhh again I go to the arguements about her statement given by myself and others.
Plus this shows illusionist halflings... not sorcerous halflings if we want to split hairs. Sorcerers was the books name for wizards.... not nesscecarily all arcane casters.
What do we do about this contradiction? You have offered seker that the oba is somehow misinformed concerning this matter. Another way to deal with this is that the halflings so concerned are rather priestly in nature.
Unfortunately I am not often much convinced by the "lying SM" theories often posited in this forum. The oba lying to the heroes at that part of the CS makes no sense to the story as it is, and indeed, her rebuttle must be sound, for if it is not, Rikus' contention would hold true, and indeed we would be in a quandry as to why Rajaat did not make his champions from halflings. The idea that halflings changed somehow over the millennia does not sit well with me as an explanation for illusionist halflings, as this is inferred nowhere throughout the novels. Nor do I think Denning thought about this non-sorcerous statement as much as some of us would prefer. Rather everthing in my mind seems to point to Denning writing the oba's explanation as a very simply statement of fact on Denning's part, as indeed we must admit that the PP was, however much we may enjoy it, somewhat simplisticly (and even carelessly, at times?) written.
As to the Oba's statement, Flip and Zmai beat me too the punch. In my previous posts I did not say that the Oba lied, I said she had a biased point of view. Ie that she may not have known that halflings could use arcane magic.... note however there is a difference between a sorcerer/wizard and an illusionist in the view of many. The illusionist brings to mind a trickster with little power to most peoples point of view... though this is not often the actual case. So it could just as easily be that she does not consider them capable to be true sorcerers due to this lack of power.
And you are reading into what was actually written there. As far as I was aware, Troy Denning was aware of the rpg rules while writing the novel, so would have been aware of the fact that halflings could be illusionists at that point in the novel.... so it makes no sense for him to be outright saying that the rule book is wrong.
If this is all the case, we are left with either a somewhat serious error on Denning's part, or somehow, the Nok/halfling wizard issue made sense to Denning.
I have continued this discussion too long and too chaotically to go much further at this time, but let me offer some final notes.
1) Seker has noted the "fluff" concept, which should be seriously considered. Denning admitted to breaking from game mechanics in favor of the story, even though he liked adhering to the mechanics when possible. It is thus then possible that the Nok problem was simply a non-issue for Denning himself.
2) The concept of a misinformed oba seems dubious to me, as even if she were misinformed, Rikus' contention would still need dealing with, and if the halflings were indeed, contrary to what the SMs think, actually capable of sorcery, we would still have the question: why did Rajaat not make halfling champions?
3) For Denning there may have been no contradiction. Nok may have been a special case or, as I have opened the possibility, not a sorcerer at all.
4) I myself support a special case scenario. Unfortunately I must end my post, but my "solution" (which has its own problems and concerns) offers a radical set of circumstances:
Actually I gave the other option of him actually just being a illusionist/psionicist and backed up my findings.... which was a valid combination per the original box set.
And I handled each of these above.
Nok (VP, 278) suggests he "is" the forest. Long story short, I offer the version that Nok was originally a psionicist/druid halfling who rose to 21st/21st, becoming merged with the spirit of the land, possibly of the whole Forest, on an introductory level. Thus, as a 21st level spirit of the land, he may have been able to break dual class limitations as a special case, and rise to a 20th or 21st level preserver (general subclass, not as an illusionist), who would, upon reaching such levels, be able to draw life energy if he held obsidian orbs. He might have dual classed so in the hopes of one day having the power to challenge/defend himself against SMs and the Dragon.
I offer my theory surely, but this theory only happens to fit later developed mechanics.
Denning I think had simply what the quote of Denning by Lucazs had in mind: a halfling druid/psionicist/preserver who simply, and as far as game mechanics are concerned, inexplicably, was capable of summoning life energy out of animal life. To Denning, it may indeed have been as simple a matter as that, as nearly everything points to this simple conclusion.
Good luck with this difficult problem seker. You seem to me to be handling this issue well. I hope some of my points may be of some use to you in your write ups. Must go...
Actually given his reluctance to fight the dragons himself those levels seem way too powerful... plus it is mentioned in verdant passage that Kalak would be stronger in the way than Nok... so having him be that high in psionicist is arguable at best. (at least by the rules as they were at that time for darksun)
Again I never saw anything Nok did as being things from the druids abilities or such. all the spells he cast seem to draw animal life ... ala high level psionicist/wizards ... and he used psionics.... there was nothing showing he had any levels in druid. And to be honest his personality was a heck of alot closer to the way a SK treated their subjects than made me really comfortable.
Note: Pardon my laziness on the restricted schools issue. You are unfortunately incorrect as to restricted conjuration spells however, as the full list of schools Nok would likely be restricted to as an illusionist in 2nd edition would be: necromancy, invocation/evocation and abjuration. The school of conjuration is not restricted to illusionists.
Your are right... I kept mixing 1st and 2nd edition (ie forgetting off the top of my head that dark sun was for 2nd edition.... doh) in 1st edition the illusionist magic was closer to the 3.5 bards and thus had little in the way of conjuration or evocation. You are totally right on the nerf job they did on them in 2nd edition, school wise.
As to Nok's nonconfrontational attitude towards kalak, I agree with you... that is exactly how I was thinking of it.
Bleh, well so much for me being sure that halflings can't be wizards...and yay for canon contradictions...however, I think Phaaf Glien has the best suggestion so far and coincidentally ended up being the same explaination I came up with sometime last week - that being that Nok and the two halflings that are seen summoning spell energy are doing so as a form of nature magic, but drawing it from the forest as that's their particular source of power (as earth clerics or, more likely, druids) just like the sun clerics raised their hands to the sky. To someone watching who had only ever seen sun magic and wizardly magic, it might look very similar and be missinterpreted as wizardly rather than divine magic.
Yes he gave this as an option but at the same time was saying that it was the least likely of the options. He was just talking possibilities
Then there's the idea that Nok has "joined" with the land and has gained extra powers as a Spirit of the Land of sorts.
Again, there was nothing in the novel save Nok's egotistical statement that even supports this idea. He does not exhibit any of the traits, abilities, or attitudes associated with druids in darksun... let alone one who has advanced to the point of being an advanced being
And he *does* have at least one obsidian orb, which the PP showed could allow pretty much anyone to use "dragon magic".
Actually per the novels and the settings only DRAGONS and Nok (which is very very interesting if you look at it, as you never see him cast a spell without it .... so how do we know he was not a defiler himself) can use them in that way. Tithian was even saying he could not use them yet as he was not powerful enough to unlock their secrects in the 4th book. Obsidian orbs are useless for other casters per the novels. It was only later that tsr started allowing them to be used by lower level characters for other purposes. (still not dragon magic though.)
And, just like the Oba could lie, or have distorted perceptions of things, so could Nok - from his point of view dragon magic might be "his magic" because it pulls energy from animal life, which he is able to do as well...but possibly as some sort of advanced nature magic rather than arcane magic. Something along the lines of "all advanced spellcasting relies on animal-life energy, regardless of whether it is divine or arcane."
Sure he could view it this way.... but that is not how the setting has it, in every version of the setting so far... ONLY dragons need the orbs for their most powerful magic. (and Nok for some odd reason, per the Denning interview he was supposed to be something like a preserver dragon.... which I much preffer over the avangions myself)
That still doesn't resolve other contradictions...but IMO it at least makes the idea of him *not* being a wizard a little easier to swallow.
hehe... we just are not going to agree on this :P
One thing to bare in mind re: Nok-as-non-wizard is that, by 2nd ed mechanics, divine magic pulled from the elemental planes, and gave clerics and druids access to a good deal of spells (especially destructive ones) that are wizard-only in other game worlds. Druids got it even better, since they could get access to 2 different spheres, and IIRC (don't have the 2nd ed DS books handy) they got either increased access to their existing spheres or access to new spheres at high levels. So, excepting the problem of Nok draining life-energy from animals, he could have pulled off destructive invocation/evocation spells if he was a druid (and/or cleric) with access to the correct elemental spheres.
yes in darksun they did blur the distinction of which spells were from which.... it was the SOURCE of the spells that mattered... and Nok used life force, specifically animal life force, to power his spells. Only arcane magic... wizards and illusionists... used life force to power magic in darksun.
Or there's Zmaj's (and others', I'm sure) idea that it was just Rajaat lying and/or trying to keep the halflings "natural" (in his mind) so he could truly restore everything back to the way it was in the Blue Age. All in all, that's probably the best explaination for all this.
agreed, that does seem to be the explanation that fits all the parameters best... but we are just wool gathering here for fun I think.
I don't know if someone has proposed this idea, but if I read a little bit more I'll probably start talking in Halfling language :D ok what if Nok found a way to bend this natural block for arcane magic and his obsidian amulet was just a key to a huge arcane door? Nok is probably the only halfling ever to use arcane magic, so I think he just found a way to work around this natural block. If he is a high level psionicist he probably has the ability to bypass this natural block anyway. Or he's an alien in the shape of a halfling :P
lol... I love it
he is from space that is it :p
though that does not account for all the other halfling illusionist roaming around in the old sourcebooks and modules.... unless they too were aliens
actually the idea of him having a amulet (or headress) that would allow him to cast spells from the banned schools is actually a pretty good one... though I would not make it the obsidian orb myself.
lol... I love it
he is from space that is it :p
though that does not account for all the other halfling illusionist roaming around in the old sourcebooks and modules.... unless they too were aliens
Come on, they are just the initial wave of the dreaded "spacefaring halfling invasion" plot. :D
I got a smile from that comment too... simply because it did remind me of that rumored story arc that would have happened had DS not been cancelled.
As to the Oba's statement, Flip and Zmai beat me too the punch. In my previous posts I did not say that the Oba lied, I said she had a biased point of view. Ie that she may not have known that halflings could use arcane magic....
Hey, I said something to that effect too... just not in as many words.
Of the many things you mentioned, the fact that Nok doesn't really act like a druid sparked my interest...he doesn't, now that I think about it, although he still has that "natural guy" feeling about him. So I'm no longer for him being a druid, although a cleric still fits with how I picture him...and especially a rain cleric, since that would give him the motivation to protect the forest (as opposed to the other paraelements) but at the same time justify him being a more-or-less cold-hearted individual when it comes to other humanoids. True, it doesn't at all solve the issue of the spells he was seen casting or the ability to drain animal life-energy, but it's at least a divine alternative to the druid class that better fits with his characteristics.
As for those two glaring holes...even saying he was an illusionist does nothing to resolve them, as we're still stuck with dragon magic being wielded by a non-dragon. I'm sorta to the point of thinking that he's his own sort of advanced being, the divine version of a dragon without any sort of physical changes. Or even a "halfling shaman" epic prestige class that allows them to cast certain arcane spells, namely illusions and blow-'em-up spells, by drawing life-energy similar to how a dragon does it.
But then we're still stuck with those $%$(@* dragonfly-riding halflings that turn themselves invisible. *grumble*
As a side-note, I just noticed a blurb in Earth, Air, Fire and Water about an optional granted power called Sacrifice, that allows a cleric to exchange their life energy for that of plants if caught in a defiler's defiling radius. So, in another huge stretch/leap of logic, what if Nok has figured out how to *reverse* that ability, in essence forcing those around him to sacrifice their life energy in exchange for protecting the land? It wouldn't be necessary for a cleric under normal circumstances, but if he is a cleric(or druid)/illusionist or cleric(or druid)/some illusion-using PrC then maybe it's his way of casting arcane spells without risking his status as a cleric - you can't accidentally defile if your power is coming from animals, after all.
I hate grasping at straws.
Here are my thoughts:
Denning's depiction of the various forms of magic seem to be of one person drawing - litteraly - from a specific source (plants, people, even the actual sun in the sky)...so when we see Nok's dragonfly spellcasters drawing from the forest...it could very well be Denning's depiction of druid magic...since it stems from the source known as forest.
As for the "dragon magic" use through an obsidian orb, as depicted happening with one character we know is not a dragon (Nok), that can be from the character being a Leech (the PrC). Jon was/is in the process of modifying the existing Leech class to allow for preservers to take it (since drawing from people is considered clean magic by many non-defilers in Denning's novels)...so it could be possible that even a druid can enter the Leech PrC and drain people instead of a forest.
What would be required for this would be for the Leech class to require a spellcaster level instead of an arcane spellcaster level. Basically any spellcaster could enter the Leech class an use an orb to draw from people. That would be an option. In the novels Denning had some control over this option, saying that use of obsidian to draw on people was a well kept secret of the SKs and a not-so evident deduction of the mystical properties of life energy and obsidian...which is like figuring out any basic physical principle from sheer brainpower...like I said not accessible to everyone...why in Denning's novels he only had one non-dragon character that had figured out obsidian's properties and exploited them for himself.
If you consider my comment above (drawing from the forest is an indicator the character is meant to be Denning's druid), then it would make Nok a druid, not a wizard. As for him not using druid spells but what looks like very destructive wizard spells, the Prism Pentad was a series of novels, so it might very well be that Denning was not following the rules as to our expectations of what the various types of magic (druidic, clerical, wizardry) should be like. Perhaps, when he showed us Ktandeo's Cane in action, Denning wanted us to see how destructive and potent the druid spells that Nok had incoded in the item were, perhaps as a preparatory plot device to the big fight between Nok and Sadira, so as to make the readers ask "How will she ever flee from, let alone survive a fight with, such a guy as the one who crafted Ktandeo's Cane? Why, she killed something like twenty guys in a amtter of minutes with that cane alone, so think what Nok could do to her! Gosh, I'm eager for the next novel."
Idle speculations.
Tourlou, gone again.
Seker - you're right, we're never going to agree...although I'm no longer sure what to think, either, so agreement isn't even something I'm capable of at this point in time. ;) Accepting that halflings can be wizards just...just...it'd shatter my entire world-view. :D
hey we have all been there, and trust me it is fun to work out all the sides
Of the many things you mentioned, the fact that Nok doesn't really act like a druid sparked my interest...he doesn't, now that I think about it, although he still has that "natural guy" feeling about him. So I'm no longer for him being a druid, although a cleric still fits with how I picture him...and especially a rain cleric, since that would give him the motivation to protect the forest (as opposed to the other paraelements) but at the same time justify him being a more-or-less cold-hearted individual when it comes to other humanoids. True, it doesn't at all solve the issue of the spells he was seen casting or the ability to drain animal life-energy, but it's at least a divine alternative to the druid class that better fits with his characteristics.
actually from all the cleric standpoints he would be closest to a earth or air cleric really not a rain cleric... due to the powers he wields... though to be honest even these do not fit very well at all.
as an earth water or air cleric would try to protect forest each for their own reasons. (earth so that the wind and water does not remove the soil.... water as it is the greatest concentration of water outside of a lake or sea.... air the air gains scents and music from the trees.) But none of these really have the wanton disregard for the animal life that Nok shows.
As for those two glaring holes...even saying he was an illusionist does nothing to resolve them, as we're still stuck with dragon magic being wielded by a non-dragon. I'm sorta to the point of thinking that he's his own sort of advanced being, the divine version of a dragon without any sort of physical changes. Or even a "halfling shaman" epic prestige class that allows them to cast certain arcane spells, namely illusions and blow-'em-up spells, by drawing life-energy similar to how a dragon does it.
But then we're still stuck with those $%$(@* dragonfly-riding halflings that turn themselves invisible. *grumble*
This is actually the reason that I always pictured Nok as a 21st level dragon himself, though a "preserver" one. IE he only uses animal life to power his magic. Although for the d20 modern version of Dark Sun I designed I made a racial class for halflings that allowed them to cast arcane spells (with the limitation of an illusionist) as long as they had a certain feat.
As a side-note, I just noticed a blurb in Earth, Air, Fire and Water about an optional granted power called Sacrifice, that allows a cleric to exchange their life energy for that of plants if caught in a defiler's defiling radius. So, in another huge stretch/leap of logic, what if Nok has figured out how to *reverse* that ability, in essence forcing those around him to sacrifice their life energy in exchange for protecting the land? It wouldn't be necessary for a cleric under normal circumstances, but if he is a cleric(or druid)/illusionist or cleric(or druid)/some illusion-using PrC then maybe it's his way of casting arcane spells without risking his status as a cleric - you can't accidentally defile if your power is coming from animals, after all.
I hate grasping at straws.
Actually druids have a similiar ability dealing with their guarded lands... And this seems like a idea for describing it... just like the idea of mastery of psionic life draining and strength of the land could explain the research into the lifedraining abilities of a dragon's animal magic.
But again the problem comes from the lack of traits of being a divine caster on Nok.
BTW the main reason I have put so much thought into Nok and stuff like that was he was my fave character from the pentad.... and the scariest in my opinion. He was the hidden threat in my opinion. Plus I have been helping on some writeups of him with various people. Frankly I would rather tick off an SK than Nok.... the only reason Sadira was able to take him down was by basically causing a retributive strike on the cane targetting Nok point blank. (As the cane seems closely related to a staff of magi in my opinion power wise.)
flip has the right arguments I think.
Here are my thoughts:
Denning's depiction of the various forms of magic seem to be of one person drawing - litteraly - from a specific source (plants, people, even the actual sun in the sky)...so when we see Nok's dragonfly spellcasters drawing from the forest...it could very well be Denning's depiction of druid magic...since it stems from the source known as forest.
While this is true you run back into the problem of that spell not being available to druids :P
but it is possible on the dragonfly riders.
As for the "dragon magic" use through an obsidian orb, as depicted happening with one character we know is not a dragon (Nok), that can be from the character being a Leech (the PrC). Jon was/is in the process of modifying the existing Leech class to allow for preservers to take it (since drawing from people is considered clean magic by many non-defilers in Denning's novels)...so it could be possible that even a druid can enter the Leech PrC and drain people instead of a forest.
Ahhh but in interview with Denning, he even said that Nok was originally considered to be a preserver dragon (before the whole junk with avangions got started.) so that would make him an arcane caster not a druid. And I am still looking forward to Jon modifying the Leech PRC to work for preservers, as it removes alot of the problems people have with Nok... though I will still likely have him be a preserver form of a dragon (or possibly not even a preserver in the standard sense, but rather a dragon that only uses animal life to power his spells.)
Again we come to the disdain/indifference that Nok shows towards animal life as being a problem with him being a druid. He shows a willingness to sacrifice anyone that puts SK's to shame.
What would be required for this would be for the Leech class to require a spellcaster level instead of an arcane spellcaster level. Basically any spellcaster could enter the Leech class an use an orb to draw from people. That would be an option. In the novels Denning had some control over this option, saying that use of obsidian to draw on people was a well kept secret of the SKs and a not-so evident deduction of the mystical properties of life energy and obsidian...which is like figuring out any basic physical principle from sheer brainpower...like I said not accessible to everyone...why in Denning's novels he only had one non-dragon character that had figured out obsidian's properties and exploited them for himself.
interesting idea, though personally I am not a fan of making the leech class available to druids and other divine casters... as they are granted their power through pacts and more are an open conduit to the power than actually drain it from another source. You cannot become a druid, cleric, or templar without the permission of your patron... an arcane caster on the other hand steals what he uses. (more like the ur-priest from normal D&D)
If you consider my comment above (drawing from the forest is an indicator the character is meant to be Denning's druid), then it would make Nok a druid, not a wizard. As for him not using druid spells but what looks like very destructive wizard spells, the Prism Pentad was a series of novels, so it might very well be that Denning was not following the rules as to our expectations of what the various types of magic (druidic, clerical, wizardry) should be like. Perhaps, when he showed us Ktandeo's Cane in action, Denning wanted us to see how destructive and potent the druid spells that Nok had incoded in the item were, perhaps as a preparatory plot device to the big fight between Nok and Sadira, so as to make the readers ask "How will she ever flee from, let alone survive a fight with, such a guy as the one who crafted Ktandeo's Cane? Why, she killed something like twenty guys in a amtter of minutes with that cane alone, so think what Nok could do to her! Gosh, I'm eager for the next novel."
Idle speculations.
Tourlou, gone again.
Sorry but I have to disagree. I have never doubted a druids ability to toss out magical destruction... they were always second only to wizards in that regard. But the way Nok specifically is portrayed in the novels seems totally at odds with a druid even by dark suns harsh standards... the 2 casters on dragonflies I conceed may have been druids, though the spell they cast goes against that, but not Nok.
For game mechanics, I believe seker has argued valiantly for the illusionist option for Nok, and it is something which, for my two-cents, should certainly be considered for those who would wish it in their campaign/storyline. As to your particular arguments on this matter seker, i am in total agreement with you concerning the dispel magic issue you brought up. Indeed, the spell which Sadira fired off against Kalak's wards need not be dispel magic by any means, but could be any number of other spells. I did not include this detail for brevity in my earlier post, but as it is a point of contention, once again I am in agreement with you. The breaking of Kalak's wards, could have been, for instance, some sort of alteration spell, to which Nok would have access, and indeed, once might even claim the spell the cane used was pierce any shield, a 9th level spell which would almost certainly have done the trick on any of Kalak's abjurations. The spell used however is academic. What I must say is that much points to the fact that the spell used was not of the illusionist school. The effect itself indeed is described as would an invocation/evocation spell (which admittedly means little in and of itself), which I have included below in full:
At that moment, a deafening explosion shook the stadium. A great silver and gold flash shot out of the lower tiers as Sadira made her attack. The bright flare filled the air with a peculiar stench that reminded Rikus of melting copper. The bolt hit an invisible barrier at the balcony edge, exploding there into a brilliant cascade of red and blue sparks. The mul glimpsed a magical wall of shimmering force, but it faded away amidst a cacophony of loud sizzles and sharp pops. -VP, 318
Again, seker, you have noted that spells may be devised that have other-school effects even if they are not actually of the school in question. Indeed, my pierce any shield example is again an alteration spell, but it has an abjurative property, one could argue I suppose (note: I do not think this was the spell Ktandeo's cane used). The problem is however that, to my limited knowledge, I believe you are in error about shadow magic being the spells shot off from Ktandeo's cane in any instance throughout the novels. The Kalak scene is a case in point. For instance, the PH (2nd ed.) lists two versions of shadow magic directly, namely shadow magic itself and demi-shadow magic, both of which can mimic only evocation spells, as the spell description states explicitely, and indeed, shadow magic can only mimic evocation spells of up to the 3rd level, and demi-shadow magic up to 5th. Please correct me if I am in error, but I am unaware of any 1st-5th level evocation spells which could accomplish any spell-breaking effect. And furthermore, it would seem to me that the spell in question would have to be considerably more powerful than demi-shadow magic would allow, which indeed is certainly possible (improved demi-shadow magic? etc.), but becomes mildly ridiculous, as Ktandeo's cane would have to be streaming off 7th, 8th or even 9th level spells only to create much lesser spell effects. Even further, the breaking of Kalak's wards would limit any shadow magic to the very weakest of its abilities, as the wards cannot believe or disbelieve illusions. It would seem to me that the spell, hitting the wards, would be close to "40% of normal damage" as listed in the demi-shadow magic spell description for those who disbelieve the demi-illusion. In the end, as I have argued before, illusionary magic streaming from Nok just seems more difficult for me to accept. You have noted seker that the dragonfly halfling uses an invisibility spell, but this is the only example of direct illusionary halfling magic mentioned undeniably from the books of which I am aware. Nothing is made of halfling illusionists throughout the novel, as much as I myself might wish, for no hint is ever given of Nok's spells being the stuff of shadow, nor is he introduced as an illusionist or anything drawing close to this.
There are other problems with the illusionist thesis. The Heartwood Spear is yet another example. It is undeniable the Nok made this Spear himself. I need not cite examples. His retrieval of the Spear from the great oak near his temple is indicative of druidic magic in its own right (as it stretches matters to have a wizard use a tree to enchant his items etc.), but more to point, the Spear has the ability to ward off hostile magics and psionics. As the Spear is never inferred to be, in any way, a psionically empowered item (e.g. it is not sentient, etc.), these warding effects, which are certainly very powerful, must be of the abjuration school of magic if they are wizardly, to which Nok, as an illusionist, once again would not have access. There is no other way to explain the powerful abjuration magic of the Spear if the Spear was made solely through wizardry, as seker I believe prefers. Again, these defenses are too powerful (as they guard even against the Way) for any other explanation to be given with the Nok as an illusionist and not a priestly class case. This is a major difficulty with the illusionist thesis as far as I can tell.
Another issue which seker has most appropriately brought out is that Nok seems never to directly be labeled as a druid, or for that matter any clerical post. I sympathize with this problem. Still, I think there is evidence at least to consider Nok as a druid (note: I shall prefer the "druid" label, although I see the possibility, although I do not much agree with it, that he might have been of clerical status). First of all, Denning's quote about a triple classed druid/psionicist/preserver gives precedent to the druidic argument, if indeed we can trust the quote (can anyone confirm this?).
Following will be presented some other druidic inferences. Note that arguably none of them, by themselves, are assuredly druidic in nature, but as they add up, I believe the option of a druid Nok becomes more of an option to consider:
1) Nok's introductory speech (VP, 278): "I am World Tree, whose roots bring forth fruit so that my people may eat. I am Rain Bird, whose wings shower the land with water so that my people may drink. I am Time Serpent, whose tail is the past and whose head is the future, so that my people will live forever. I am Nok, the forest."
2) Nok grows a spear. (Life-shaping is hardly mentioned in the novels, and I have serious doubts this is the case here, as the Spear does not resemble anything life-shaped as described in the CS, nor would lifeshaping explain all the Spear's powers)
"Ktandeo sent us for his magical spear," Sadira said.
"I have been growing a spear," replied the halfling... (VP, 279)
3) Nok "spoke a few pharses in his own language" when removing the Spear from the oak (VP, 282). Wizardly magic would require other mystical words, while priests in Denning's books frequently use common words to call on their elemental powers.
4) VP 282 itself, in the description of the removal of the Spear, appears very much to be non-sorcerous in nature (Note seker, I use "sorcerous" to indicate any wizardly magic).
5) The turning of the Heartwood Spear into a massive tree (AE, 79).
6) Nok's death and the mystical then physical tree he turns into (tree of life?) is not indicative of wizardly magic. Indeed, it seems even beyond the abilities of a normal druid, but druidic nonetheless. (This is an important example supporting my apologetic interpretation for a spirit of the land Nok.)
-) AE, 72, "Nok's magic" (druidic or other?)
At the very least, these 6 items seem to me to be worth considering.
Why however, if Nok is such a powerful druid (or for that matter, illusionist), do we not see him use his great powers with any frequency at all. Certainly they must be great, as he crafted what is undeniably an artifact (the Heartwood Spear), as well as he made the very powerful item, Ktandeo's cane.
Simply put, I believe Denning simply wrote many of his "NPCs" this way. For instance, many have noted in this forum that the five SMs at the Gate of Doom, whom Tithian and Rikus faced off against, were too easily "defeated" and bypassed, and that surely their power should have wiped Rikus and Tithian from the face of Athas. Yet we saw no meteor swarms, nor fantastic magics that might have expedited the encounter for the SMs. This is rather a constant throughout the novels, for whereas the heroes may demonstrate close the full potential which their levels might indicate, the NPCs do not. We do not seem to see incredible feats of the Way or terrible psionic enchantments which guard and ward the SMs... just look at the fight with the Dragon. There are of course explanations that could be offered for this, but nevertheless, the lack of evidenced powers remains the same.
Nok had little need to demonstrate more radical powers throughout the novels. The apologist can craft convincing explanations for all the occasions during which Nok or any other powerful NPC did not use the full sway of powers we as gamers know they possessed.
Seker has also brought up another important issue, being the seemingly evil alignment Nok possesses, and that, especially with the globes, he seems almost like a defiler. This is where my druidic argument seems to fit especially well.
As a druid, Nok must be neutral in alignment. Certainly, he shows disregard for the lives of his halflings, but this is rather clearly not evil to Nok. Indeed, the halflings are part of the forest, or even the greater ecosystem of Athas, and therefore he has absolutely no problem with them dying for him, especially as he is the forest. Death simply does not matter too much, at least not enough for him to care about the death of his followers when Sadira enquires him about it at the Canyon of Guthay. Nok himself I think encaptulates this assuredly druidic philosophy well in the VP:
Feast Stones!" Rikus exclaimed, tugging at his bindings.
"We came as friends!" Agis objected.
"You'll become part of the forest. What could be a greater gift for one's friends?" Nok asked, smiling sincerely.
Indeed, Nok seems ambivalent to any "evil" surrounding the matter.
Furthermore, as a spirit of the land, Nok really would "be" the Forest. He would be its guardian, which affords him a special position, as he must survive, in his mind, so that all else can survive that is within his purview. Indeed, the spirit of the land interpretation might help explain how a halfling chieftain bestows powers on followers as described in the old first box Wanderer's Journal (p. 24), for as a spirit of the land (21st level, therefore making him only very partially merged, but nonetheless merged) he would very arguably have some say in this.
All this considered, it is therefore difficult to ascede to Nok an evil alignment. Indeed, even as he sacrifices his warriors, we see the stark passion of his beliefs, which again are true druidic beliefs. He is willing to risk the lives of his warriors to stop a defiler:
"I beg you, let me keep the cane a while longer," the sorceress said. "The Dragon has threatened Tyr. I'm going to his birthplace, hoping to discover some way to kill him."
"No! If you kill the Dragon, who will protect Athas from you?" demanded the halfling. -AE, 79
It is all very druidic to me (although admittedly Nok's morals do not necessarily make him a druid).
Another interesting point is one which Dirk has recently brought up:
Then there's the idea that Nok has "joined" with the land and has gained extra powers as a Spirit of the Land of sorts.
And he *does* have at least one obsidian orb, which the PP showed could allow pretty much anyone to use "dragon magic".
And, just like the Oba could lie, or have distorted perceptions of things, so could Nok - from his point of view dragon magic might be "his magic" because it pulls energy from animal life, which he is able to do as well...but possibly as some sort of advanced nature magic rather than arcane magic. Something along the lines of "all advanced spellcasting relies on animal-life energy, regardless of whether it is divine or arcane." (underlines added)
This is an important observation on Dirk's part, an issue which seker has also elucidated upon, as it is a more complex issue (which I was hoping to avoid) but one which I think is important to consider, so as to help with our understanding of Nok.
Seker has observed, most appropriately again, that Nok seems to never be without his orb to cast a spell, which is difficult for us to explain whether he is a druid or illusionist (/mage). One explanation again however is his druidic morality. One could argue that energy, even for druid spells, must come from some place, and in either a druid or wizard's case, it is from the land (spirit of the land, etc.). It could be argued that Nok prefers not to draw on these powers, when he can draw it from himself. Or, in another angle, especially as seen at the Canyon of Guthay, Nok, in casting wizardly magic, might have especially prefered not to draw from the land at all (as may be the case wherever he might be), and thus, drew from his own person the energy he needed for his spells). Indeed, especially if Nok were practicing sorcery after his druidic leveling-up had ceased, it would make sense that he would prefer to use wizardly magic whenever possible, especially as it is the more powerful type of magic. Yet again another possibility is that Nok is not a wizard at all, and that Dirk hits it on the nerve that obsidian globes can be used by any spellcaster, even if not a wizard, to fuel spells from animal life, if he of 21st level spirit of the land status (spirit of the land status also helps explain how Nok would draw animal energy if he is a wizard, as even a 20th level wizard cannot perform such feats unless he is a dragon [or avangion??] [save for the first dragon metamorphosis spell]). This is against seker's stated interpretations, but it should be recalled that the life-link associations with all forms of magic are regular themes throughout nearly all dark sun products, and therefore perhaps some consideration should be given to this possible interpretation.
...
Towards closing, it is necessary to once again deal with the irritable oba rebuttle issue. I think prymusferal sums up my feelings on the subject rather neatly:
Yeah, you're right. It had actually been a while since I read V.P... I re-read it several months ago, but I then re-read the other four books within the past month. Of course, we COULD throw in the "lying SM" train of thought and apply it to Nok as well, but that would just be silly. I think Denning uses dialogue to provide information to the reader through means OTHER than just straight exposition, which is a pretty common thing to do. That applies to the Oba's quote and every other.
I am well-acquainted with solutions others have offered, especially the savage vs. civilized halfling thesis, or any number of similar constructions stemming from associations with the Pristine Tower, or seker's illusionist-halflings-are-exceptions posit. In the end it seems just as simple, to me at least, as prymusferal makes it. There were four other SMs around the oba when she made the haflling claim, and no one corrected her interpretation of halflings not being able to be sorcerers. Also, the oba uses the present tense, inferring that even in modern times halflings could not become sorcerers, thus making it difficult to accept the "halflings have changed over the millennia issue" concept. It just seems to ridiculous that all the SMs would be in error about halflings, and indeed Sadira herself even confirms the SMs' interpretation, very strongly suggesting that once again modern halflings, a race with which Sadira is surely acquainted, currently cannot cast wizardly magic (note that she does not bring up Nok as an exception." Simply put, it seems that nearly all evidence points to the fact that halflings cannot cast wizardly magic of any sort in the PP (possible exceptions exist: one being p. 284 as halflings being considered as possible masters of the Way and "magic", whatever that means).
In all truth, I enjoy halfling illusionists (be they gnomish parallels or not) in early Dark Sun products. Again, as I have stated, it simply seems a rather serious discrepency, one which I surely wish could have been avoided by the original writers. However one wishes to reconcile the contradiction between the PP and the other 1st box canon products I leave to other posts.
In closing, I have argued for the possibility of many "solutions" to the Nok problem, and indeed there seem to me to be those with greater degrees of logic and citations supporting them. Indeed, I have even offered that Nok may be simply a druid/psionicist (spirit of the land?), and not a wizard at all (although I sit with this quite uncomfortably).
As to the advanced levels I have suggested for Nok, there seems some evidence to credit them. Agis' exclamation as to the power of Nok's mind has been frequently cited, and even though we have Neeva responding that Kalak's mind will be stronger, (which is probably another of Denning's factoids via a character, even though Neeva would likely have little way of knowing any of this for sure), Kalak's mind still could very easily be stronger than Nok's via enhanced stats or whatever other excuse one might conjure up. Advanced levels of an extreme nature would also be required to make the items he did (at least one is undeniably an artifact/relic). Furthermore, advanced levels would be required to summon energy from animal life. Even further, advanced being form, in the form of a spirit of the land, seems to make Nok's post-death transformation into a tree much more explicable, as really no other solution I can easily come up with would explain this.
I have discussed this subject ad nauseam. Hopefully it will be useful to those involved with this most irritable issue. I apologize for the haphazard way I have argued this, as I, as we all do, have other things to do.
I find your illusionist theory arguments stimulating seker. I am hoping you sway me on this issue, or that I sway you, as it is quite the difficult problem to me, and I would like to have it solved, for I am in somewhat of a quandry at the moment if I should allow illusionist halflings, or wizard halflings at all.
Happy Darksunning!
NOTE 1: From seker:
And you are reading into what was actually written there. As far as I was aware, Troy Denning was aware of the rpg rules while writing the novel, so would have been aware of the fact that halflings could be illusionists at that point in the novel.... so it makes no sense for him to be outright saying that the rule book is wrong.
Certainly, I hope Nok was aware of the halfling illusionist possibility, and as I noted above, perhaps we have a some good evidence for this on p. 284 of VP, where the heroes worry about halfling masters of psionics and "magic", whatever that means. Then again, he might not have been familiar with his own 1st box rule book as we might hope. Another possibility, and this unfortunately seems to me an all too likely possibility, is that Denning simply changed his mind or "forgot" about halfling wizards somehow when he wrote the oba's statement. Then again, he might have just run over the mechanics issue in preference to story. We shall have to ask him!
NOTE 2: from seker:
Sure he could view it this way.... but that is not how the setting has it, in every version of the setting so far... ONLY dragons need the orbs for their most powerful magic. (and Nok for some odd reason, per the Denning interview he was supposed to be something like a preserver dragon.... which I much preffer over the avangions myself)
-I have opened the way for an "avangion" element of Nok... regardless, it seems that, in this interpretation, that Nok would have to be an "advanced being" to use magic as he did, although he need not necessarily be a "dragon" (spirit of the land??)
ADDENDUM: Notice Ktandeo's cane requires an activation word, then command words, to use its "dragon-magic" powers (whatever that means). Nok does not seem to require any words at all to begin to activate his own globe, which helps imply to me that he is of 21st level status (or something like that), in order to use such magic himself, as surely Ktandeo and Sadira are not 21st level and thus require a highly enchanted item to draw power from animal life. (cf. 84, AE)
21st level spirit of the land (major access earth/minor access rain) with an advanced being exception to advance as dual clased preserver, rising to 21st level+ mage preserver (not illusionist) so as to be strong enough to take energy from animal life as only an advanced being (spirit of the land) can do.
This would explain Nok's peculiar "death" and transformation into a tree (spirit of the land).
Advanced levels explain Nok's artifact making ability.
Preserver mage subclass explains the invocation/evocation and seeming abjuration powers of Ktandeo's cane (as well as the sheer magnitude of its powers) without resorting to tenuous illusionist arguments (as well as they conform to Denning's supposed support)
Spirit of the Land advanced being form explains the ability to draw from animal life (even though it seems that the spirit of the land metemorphosis had not yet been devised by the writing of the book, the paradigm fits postfactum, especially if Denning himself was not terribly clear as to what Nok actually was)
Spirit of the Land form explains Nok's claims that he "is" the forest.
Etc!
If Denning's extra-novel statements are in error, a simple spirit of the land (21st level) may still apply, if one accepts the arguments I provided in my previous post.
May the debate continue!
Prior to realizing that a novella had been written between the time I left work, ate dinner, and checked the boards again, I decided to look up all instances of Nok casting spells in the PP (at least, all that I could think of). Turns out that some of the claims made in the last page of posts are wrong, at least as far as Nok's personal capabilities are concerned. Between spellcasting and psionics, here's the list:
- Nok floats down through the air from the tree that he eventually gets the Heartwood Spear from (...which is very likely the Last Tree. I'll come back to this later). Note that there is no summoning of energy (in any way) stated here - so this could possibly be a psionic power, not magic.
- Nok specifically uses a psionic illusion to make the vine bridge appear to split apart; the illusion is not magic.
- Nok walks across the bridge with no effort...which since he has already demonstrated that he can walk on the air, isn't much of a feat, really. Again, it isn't stated that he draws energy before doing so (so it could be psionic for all we know).
- At the bridge, Nok uses a "green energy" from within his obsidian orb to cause the Heartwood Spear to quickly grow into a huge oak that spans the chasm. Again, there is no description of him drawing energy from anywhere, nor from anyone being "drained"...not even from the halflings that are standing around him.
- Sadira defiles the area around the oak to "counteract Nok's potent magic," although up 'til now he still hasn't done anything the least bit potent, at least not offensively. Just thought I'd throw this in here since Seker (I think...) mentioned it previously.
- After the oak is destroyed, Nok walks across the air...again. And, as with every other time he's done something "magical," Denning makes no mention of him drawing energy from either plant or animal life.
- As Nok crosses the chasm, he attacks Sadira psionically; she even recognizes it as such, and defends using tricks that Aegis taught her.
- On the other side, Nok says the bit about "don't think to use my magic against me" but, rather than actually casting a spell, he is described as sucking Sadira's life energy out of her with his orb. At the same time, again, there is no mention of his own life energy appearing to be drained - so for all we know, his attack might actually be the *draining of Sadira's life energy itself*, ala an enervation or similar spell. Sadira then activates the cane, smashes 'em together, and there's the big boom.
...and that's all I found. Every time we see Nok do something supernatural, it is either specifically stated as being psionic in nature, or else it has nature-like elements and no associated "drawing of energy" stated. In fact, the only attacks he ever does are psionic, and the only time he actively drains someone's life energy is when he's specifically trying to kill Sadira...and so the draining itself could very well be due to his "attack" rather than the summoning of animal-life energy for the purpose of casting a spell.
As for my earlier reference to the Last Tree: In Psionic Artifacts of Athas it states that "halfling rain clerics from throughout the Forest Ridge come to the Last Tree to learn from the living artifact...*snip*...the last halfling to learn...was Nok, and this may have been where he obtained the Heartwood Spear." So right there it is implied that Nok is, in fact, a rain cleric, as I have previously suggested. Given that the only "magic" we ever see him do involves the air and making a tree grow, this fits right into the air/water elements that a rain cleric would use.
Additionally, if Nok got the spear from the Last Tree, that means that it technically wasn't Nok that grew it, as he states - it was an ancient artifact-creature that did, growing it from it's own form. If that's the case, then any powers the Spear have are a result of the Last Tree's capabilities and not Nok's.
Tied in with this is the fact that, if the HW Spear came from the Last Tree, then it's just as likely (IMO) that Ktandeo's Cane did as well; although the obsidian ball had to have been added afterwards, many of the spells stored within it may very well be a result of Last Tree's abilities and again, not Nok's.
About all we're left with here is the fact that Nok has items capable of drawing life energy, both in the casting of spells as well as possibly for attack purposes. How he came to have these items - or make them as the case may be - is a mystery, but it is not at all indicitive of him being a wizard of any sort - as I've shown above, every "spell" he's cast wasn't described as being sorcerous in nature, and obsidian is repeatedly described as being useable for the channeling of animal life essence as opposed to plant life essence...so it's the obsidian, really, that gives him his life-draining abilities. If you want to take this one step further, recall that during the Green Age obsidian orbs were used to store entire psyches - if Nok is a truly powerful psion, that has been taught by the Last Tree, then it's feasible (I think) that his life-draining items are a result of *psionic* power and not magical power, despite their similarities to "dragon magic."
Beyond that, Nok seems to be a potent psion (if you believe Aegis), but otherwise isn't all that noteworthy of a spellcaster. Yes, he has items that do all sorts of mage-like things, but not once does he personally, descriptively, without a doubt, use wizardly magic to fuel a spell.
So, again, I put forth the idea that Nok is a rain cleric and potent psion, perhaps a druid as well (I like Phaaf's explaination of how Nok's actions are of a "druidic mindset" so to speak), with no arcane spellcasting abilities. Any arcane magic he harnesses is done by using magical and/or psionic items in the form of obsidian orbs and wood that may very well have come from the Last Tree, a living artifact itself.
- Nok specifically uses a psionic illusion to make the vine bridge appear to split apart; the illusion is not magic.
To be clear, I have never claimed this, nor do I believe anyone else has. Indeed you are correct, it is a psionic effect. There may have been some confusion, as the giant dragonfly riders use some form of illusionary "invisibility" spell here.
In other matters, Dirk has gone through considerable effort to illustrate the the life leeching effects of animal defiling are frequently not illustrated in the novels. This indeed is so, but Denning was a hasty writer, prone to skipping details, and indeed, it is likely appropriate to assume that every time anyone uses those globes, including Nok, life-leeching does indeed take place (even when Nok expands the HW Spear into the bridge, etc.). Indeed, as Dirk notes, we have this effect directly from the AE (p. 84), but I must staunchly disagree with Dirk that this draining back Nok was due to the spell's effects (via enervation or the like, as all precedent suggests that the globe was draining lifeforce in preparation for a spell, for every single other instance throughout the PP, when it comes up, infers clearly that the globes in this sense are meant to drain life force from animal life. Nok had not finished summoning energy for his spell.
As to Nok floating (or similar), Dirk is correct to point out no life force seems to be drawn, at least from via obsidian. I rather agree with Dirk that this is either psionic, or, possibly, any number of various druidic/priestly innate powers or spells (featherfall, etc.)
As to the PsAoA... I enjoy this book, do not get me wrong, but simply stated Dirk, the book does not live up to high canon standards. The artifacts described, especially those with histories in the novels, are often poorly done by the authors of this supplement. The Dark Lens for instance can be used by even the lowest level wizards or psionicists contrary to clear statements from the PP, Ktandeo turns into a halfling, the Scourge of Rkard becomes almost senselessly muddled etc. I enjoy the idea of the Last Tree, but as has been explored throughout this forum in several threads, the Last Tree seems to me the delightful write-up of later authors who did so with little to no consultation with early writers, as can be seen in the author list for the supplement. Indeed, if one wishes to explore this more in depth, some simple observations against a canon Last Tree as per the PsAoA is the fact that "rain clerics" had not been invented yet by the Dark Sun staff, for, as has been well-established I think in this forum, Troy Denning did not imagine para-elemental priests, labelling even Caelum a fire cleric (although this might have begun to change by the CS). Indeed, there is no great reverence paid to the tree or any such thing in the VP. Rather, Nok having "grown" the HW Spear himself is emphasized. Now again, I enjoy the Last Tree idea, and perhaps some window should be kept open for a "life-shaped" HW Spear, but I merely wish to emphasize that there is little from the PP to support this, and one must remember that the PsAoA was a 2nd box supplement which, like all such supplements, "went to town" on the whole backstory with life-shaping halflings and all sorts of other more extreme themes which saw little to no light in the PP.
As to your psionically empowered globes Dirk, it is an interesting hypothesis, but again, everything in the PP points to Nok's globes not being oriented in this way, even though it would save us a lot of trouble if they really were psionically empowered items.
Finally, Dirk has brought up the issue of life-shaping powers via the Last Tree (and from Nok) being the source of power for not only the HW Spear but also Ktandeo's cane. This would explain a great deal, but once again, these "solutions" were offered by and large by later authors who did not follow precedents established in the PP and earlier first box supplements. Again, they let the halfling nature master business take over much of the emphasis of the world, and thus we have Nok not making the Spear at all.
Hopefully this has been useful to someone. I have commented enough for now.
For all other concerns from my point of view, please look to my previous postings on this matter.
Ktandeo turns into a halfling...
Yeah, that's just an example of sloppiness on the part of the editors... or rather, one editor. It all stemmed from this one editor's thought that the illustration looked more like a halfling, which led him to change all of the text to halfling instead of human. It wasn't an intentional switch.
Troy Denning did not imagine para-elemental priests, labelling even Caelum a fire cleric (although this might have begun to change by the CS).
Denning has gone on record saying that he never dealt with para-elemental priests at all, that it was someone else's creation altogether. He also gave the impression that he was not happy with that particular part of DS design (to say the least). Caelum was a fire cleric the entire time, with the sun as the the focus of his devotion to fire. Where better would such a ready supply of his element come from if not a big ball of fiery gas that spread intense heat over the entire planet?
... one must remember that the PsAoA was a 2nd box supplement which, like all such supplements, "went to town" on the whole backstory with life-shaping halflings and all sorts of other more extreme themes which saw little to no light in the PP.
Yeah, I'm in complete agreement here. The 2nd box went too far with a lot of the themes that it presented. I simply don't like the tone as much as that of the 1st box.
Me and Seker have a version of Nok we imagined together, we think its real good (albeit Seker has his personal version too, using his own d20 ruleset or non-SRD material). I hope to post it one day, or - far better - get out there that electronic flipbook we've been talking about doing.
We've been discussing (that was months ago) Nok's stats and came up with something that matches his observed deeds from PP, and where his stats are lacking we introduce a "third party" element to his character. This "third party" is, without blowing the whole scoop, related to the Spear, the giant oak tree, and Nok's connections within the forest.
No it does not involve him being a cleric or druid, in fact we've made him be a wizard (preserver)/leech/wilder. Everywhere this class setup fails to do what he can do in the PP, we have items (drawn from his physical description) backing him up, as well as mystical connections to this "third party" I mentionned (all within the game rules). It even covers how Nok is able to craft an artifact, what happens to him when Sadira beats the crap out of him, and many other story elements. Oh, it also reconciles many aspects of wizardry magic and Forest Ridge halflings.
The explanations manage to sound plausible, even likely, they look athasian in nature, and they further develop existing plot elements without creating new ones.
Its a nice setup I promise...and its all in our heads! If Seker and me were to have head injuries then poof, all gone! (Although I have a msn messenger archive file about a mile long which chronicles the evolution of the whole idea.)
If Denning's extra-novel comments are accurate, as Pennarin has seemed to confirm, then for clarity's sake...
:P Mistaken identity, not me! ;)
Seker, I wasn't seriously entertaining the idea of making Nok a druid, we've been through that one together already if your recall, it was all speculations on the lack of druid magic in the PP and how the dragonfly riders might actually be Denning's attempt at druids...although I think the concept of having all forms of spellcasters actually visibly draw their energy from their respective sources (if its indeed an idea Denning attempted to put out there) is a bad one. I like wizards to visibly draw from plants and my cerulean wizards to draw from a distant eastern source, but my shadow wizards and necromants should draw from an invisible source, as well as druids and most clerics. Thematically.
oh yeah and Penn I know on you not being into Nok being a druid, we talked about it alot :P
But save for Abbey's novels and the one instance when the fire cleric's tried to draw from the sun near Ur Draxa, (which in and of itself was a special situation given where it was.) there was never a way of detecting a clerics casting save the components of casting. As remember when Denning wrote the novels there were no sun clerics, just fire clerics that focussed their devotion to the sun.
Once again, seker has provided valuable commentary on my offered theories concerning the Nok issue, but as there seems to be considerable community interest in this quisquous problem, I shall proceed with the issue, although not, as I hoped, in a much later and more involved posting.
For game mechanics, I believe seker has argued valiantly for the illusionist option for Nok, and it is something which, for my two-cents, should certainly be considered for those who would wish it in their campaign/storyline. As to your particular arguments on this matter seker, i am in total agreement with you concerning the dispel magic issue you brought up. ...*SNIP*
First off I did not specify that any particular attack spell in the cane was shadow magic, just that illusionists were able to duplicate the evocations spells with shadow magic. The spell research method that I also suggested is much more likely.
There are other problems with the illusionist thesis. The Heartwood Spear is yet another example. It is undeniable the Nok made this Spear himself. I need not cite examples. His retrieval of the Spear from the great oak near his temple is indicative of druidic magic in its own right (as it stretches matters to have a wizard use a tree to enchant his items etc.), but more to point, the Spear has the ability to ward off hostile magics and psionics. As the Spear is never inferred to be, in any way, a psionically empowered item (e.g. it is not sentient, etc.), these warding effects, which are certainly very powerful, must be of the abjuration school of magic if they are wizardly, to which Nok, as an illusionist, once again would not have access. There is no other way to explain the powerful abjuration magic of the Spear if the Spear was made solely through wizardry, as seker I believe prefers. Again, these defenses are too powerful (as they guard even against the Way) for any other explanation to be given with the Nok as an illusionist and not a priestly class case. This is a major difficulty with the illusionist thesis as far as I can tell.
Actually it does not say in the books wether it is truely magic or psionicly empowered.... all it does say is that he "grew it" (which many magical items, both sorcerous and clerical are grown in darksun... trees of life and potion fruits are quick examples off hand.) and that it effects both psionics and magic. And as I always considered Nok to be a Illusionist/psionicist it is most likely made with a combination of both powers and there are psionic powers that can make a character protected against both powers of the mind and magic.
Another issue which seker has most appropriately brought out is that Nok seems never to directly be labeled as a druid, or for that matter any clerical post. I sympathize with this problem. Still, I think there is evidence at least to consider Nok as a druid (note: I shall prefer the "druid" label, although I see the possibility, although I do not much agree with it, that he might have been of clerical status). First of all, Denning's quote about a triple classed druid/psionicist/preserver gives precedent to the druidic argument, if indeed we can trust the quote (can anyone confirm this?).
Following will be presented some other druidic inferences. Note that arguably none of them, by themselves, are assuredly druidic in nature, but as they add up, I believe the option of a druid Nok becomes more of an option to consider:
I will go through these one at a time but I think you are confusing some aspects of halfling culture with druid ideals.... as well as downplaying exactly how nasty Nok actually was. There is the acceptance of death of a druid and then there is the utter disdain for sentient life save himself that Nok seems to project.... which is on par if not more so than a SK.
1) Nok's introductory speech (VP, 278): "I am World Tree, whose roots bring forth fruit so that my people may eat. I am Rain Bird, whose wings shower the land with water so that my people may drink. I am Time Serpent, whose tail is the past and whose head is the future, so that my people will live forever. I am Nok, the forest."
This could also be just plain old meglomania. You know he thinks he is the most important aspect of everyones lives.... who else in dark sun has that.... oh yeah Rajaat and the SK's
2) Nok grows a spear. (Life-shaping is hardly mentioned in the novels, and I have serious doubts this is the case here, as the Spear does not resemble anything life-shaped as described in the CS, nor would lifeshaping explain all the Spear's powers)
"Ktandeo sent us for his magical spear," Sadira said.
"I have been growing a spear," replied the halfling... (VP, 279)
Um as I said before there are alot of magic items that are grown in darksun..... by both sorcerers and by clerics/druids.
3) Nok "spoke a few pharses in his own language" when removing the Spear from the oak (VP, 282). Wizardly magic would require other mystical words, while priests in Denning's books frequently use common words to call on their elemental powers.
Um the halfling language is shown as being one of the languages used in magic in the Novels later anyway.... plus it could have been a command word or communication with the tree if it was a "tree of life" or something similiar
4) VP 282 itself, in the description of the removal of the Spear, appears very much to be non-sorcerous in nature (Note seker, I use "sorcerous" to indicate any wizardly magic).
If the tree is a tree of life, Nok himself had less to do with the creation of the spear as the tree did, so its removal is a gift from the tree.... just a thought to counter your own
5) The turning of the Heartwood Spear into a massive tree (AE, 79).
um lets see plant growth spell anyone..... or any one of a number of other spells not including spell researched ones.
6) Nok's death and the mystical then physical tree he turns into (tree of life?) is not indicative of wizardly magic. Indeed, it seems even beyond the abilities of a normal druid, but druidic nonetheless. (This is an important example supporting my apologetic interpretation for a spirit of the land Nok.)
-) AE, 72, "Nok's magic" (druidic or other?)
First off he did NOT become a tree.... there was a tree like shape made up of smoke that came from his death..... and by the description of the vines from the novel that came out of the crater that looked a heck of alot more like some kind of undead state than actual normal plant life..... ie she destroyed a powerful arcane caster (I personally preffer him as a defiler that limits himself to just animal life to "preserve") that became undead to avenge its death.
they were woody vines that were "grotesque gnarled things" with "grimy black leaves shaped like an oak trees"
Note this could easily have been a contingency spell by the normal rules much more easily than any of the other suggestions however.
At the very least, these 6 items seem to me to be worth considering.
Why however, if Nok is such a powerful druid (or for that matter, illusionist), do we not see him use his great powers with any frequency at all. Certainly they must be great, as he crafted what is undeniably an artifact (the Heartwood Spear), as well as he made the very powerful item, Ktandeo's cane.
Simply put, I believe Denning simply wrote many of his "NPCs" this way. For instance, many have noted in this forum that the five SMs at the Gate of Doom, whom Tithian and Rikus faced off against, were too easily "defeated" and bypassed, and that surely their power should have wiped Rikus and Tithian from the face of Athas. Yet we saw no meteor swarms, nor fantastic magics that might have expedited the encounter for the SMs. This is rather a constant throughout the novels, for whereas the heroes may demonstrate close the full potential which their levels might indicate, the NPCs do not. We do not seem to see incredible feats of the Way or terrible psionic enchantments which guard and ward the SMs... just look at the fight with the Dragon. There are of course explanations that could be offered for this, but nevertheless, the lack of evidenced powers remains the same.
Nok had little need to demonstrate more radical powers throughout the novels. The apologist can craft convincing explanations for all the occasions during which Nok or any other powerful NPC did not use the full sway of powers we as gamers know they possessed.
I agree
Seker has also brought up another important issue, being the seemingly evil alignment Nok possesses, and that, especially with the globes, he seems almost like a defiler. This is where my druidic argument seems to fit especially well.
As a druid, Nok must be neutral in alignment. Certainly, he shows disregard for the lives of his halflings, but this is rather clearly not evil to Nok. Indeed, the halflings are part of the forest, or even the greater ecosystem of Athas, and therefore he has absolutely no problem with them dying for him, especially as he is the forest. Death simply does not matter too much, at least not enough for him to care about the death of his followers when Sadira enquires him about it at the Canyon of Guthay. Nok himself I think encaptulates this assuredly druidic philosophy well in the VP:
There is a massive difference between the acceptance of death as being part of the cycle that is the way of the druids.... and disdain for all life save your own... and looking at others as being tools which can be discarded.... which is how Nok is portrayed in the novels
Feast Stones!" Rikus exclaimed, tugging at his bindings.
"We came as friends!" Agis objected.
"You'll become part of the forest. What could be a greater gift for one's friends?" Nok asked, smiling sincerely.
Indeed, Nok seems ambivalent to any "evil" surrounding the matter.
Actually this has nothing to do with druidic ideals.... this is a standard part of halfling philosophy... all other races are food, So the feast stone scene shows nothing of his ideals.
Furthermore, as a spirit of the land, Nok really would "be" the Forest. He would be its guardian, which affords him a special position, as he must survive, in his mind, so that all else can survive that is within his purview. Indeed, the spirit of the land interpretation might help explain how a halfling chieftain bestows powers on followers as described in the old first box Wanderer's Journal (p. 24), for as a spirit of the land (21st level, therefore making him only very partially merged, but nonetheless merged) he would very arguably have some say in this.
All this considered, it is therefore difficult to ascede to Nok an evil alignment. Indeed, even as he sacrifices his warriors, we see the stark passion of his beliefs, which again are true druidic beliefs. He is willing to risk the lives of his warriors to stop a defiler:
there is a difference between risking your followers lives and letting them die when it is time.... as a druid believes.... and keeping the balance..... and throwing away life after life for your own cause instead of using your power to PRESERVE life..... (remember the preserver philosophy comes from the druidic ideals of balance) His disdain in the situations is what shows he is more likely evil than neutral.
and the idea of him being a spirit of the land is in no way backed up by the actual novels or by interviews with the author (in fact he was saying Nok was a preserver DRAGON.... which is why he could use the obsidian orbs to power his magic as ONLY dragons could use animal life for magic per the original novels and setting.)
"I beg you, let me keep the cane a while longer," the sorceress said. "The Dragon has threatened Tyr. I'm going to his birthplace, hoping to discover some way to kill him."
"No! If you kill the Dragon, who will protect Athas from you?" demanded the halfling. -AE, 79
It is all very druidic to me (although admittedly Nok's morals do not necessarily make him a druid).
No this is just a statement of him understanding Sadira character.... She is powerhungry.... and not just to protect Tyr
Another interesting point is one which Dirk has recently brought up:
Then there's the idea that Nok has "joined" with the land and has gained extra powers as a Spirit of the Land of sorts.
And he *does* have at least one obsidian orb, which the PP showed could allow pretty much anyone to use "dragon magic".
And, just like the Oba could lie, or have distorted perceptions of things, so could Nok - from his point of view dragon magic might be "his magic" because it pulls energy from animal life, which he is able to do as well...but possibly as some sort of advanced nature magic rather than arcane magic. Something along the lines of "all advanced spellcasting relies on animal-life energy, regardless of whether it is divine or arcane." (underlines added)
This is an important observation on Dirk's part, an issue which seker has also elucidated upon, as it is a more complex issue (which I was hoping to avoid) but one which I think is important to consider, so as to help with our understanding of Nok.
The problem with this statement is that ONLY dragon magic used animal life per the novels and setting ..... so saying that all advanced beings do is a massive stretch that is not supported by the setting. And as I said before.... NOT everyone can use the orbs to use dragon magic.... only a dragon can use them directly (as per Denning saying in the interview that Nok was a preserver dragon this actually supports only dragons can use them that way.) to drain animal life.
Seker has observed, most appropriately again, that Nok seems to never be without his orb to cast a spell, which is difficult for us to explain whether he is a druid or illusionist (/mage). One explanation again however is his druidic morality. One could argue that energy, even for druid spells, must come from some place, and in either a druid or wizard's case, it is from the land (spirit of the land, etc.). It could be argued that Nok prefers not to draw on these powers, when he can draw it from himself. Or, in another angle, especially as seen at the Canyon of Guthay, Nok, in casting wizardly magic, might have especially prefered not to draw from the land at all (as may be the case wherever he might be), and thus, drew from his own person the energy he needed for his spells). Indeed, especially if Nok were practicing sorcery after his druidic leveling-up had ceased, it would make sense that he would prefer to use wizardly magic whenever possible, especially as it is the more powerful type of magic. Yet again another possibility is that Nok is not a wizard at all, and that Dirk hits it on the nerve that obsidian globes can be used by any spellcaster, even if not a wizard, to fuel spells from animal life, if he of 21st level spirit of the land status (spirit of the land status also helps explain how Nok would draw animal energy if he is a wizard, as even a 20th level wizard cannot perform such feats unless he is a dragon [or avangion??] [save for the first dragon metamorphosis spell]). This is against seker's stated interpretations, but it should be recalled that the life-link associations with all forms of magic are regular themes throughout nearly all dark sun products, and therefore perhaps some consideration should be given to this possible interpretation.
...
Again per the rules and what was written in the novels ONLY dragons can use the orbs to drain animal life for their spells.... so that means that Nok would have to be a dragon (preserver dragon per Denning) to use the orbs like this.... this in no way makes him a spirit of the land.... and while I could even see Nok having a few levels of druid possibly.... it in no way fits for him to advanced that far with how he is portrayed personality wise.
Towards closing, it is necessary to once again deal with the irritable oba rebuttle issue. I think prymusferal sums up my feelings on the subject rather neatly:
Yeah, you're right. It had actually been a while since I read V.P... I re-read it several months ago, but I then re-read the other four books within the past month. Of course, we COULD throw in the "lying SM" train of thought and apply it to Nok as well, but that would just be silly. I think Denning uses dialogue to provide information to the reader through means OTHER than just straight exposition, which is a pretty common thing to do. That applies to the Oba's quote and every other.
I am well-acquainted with solutions others have offered, especially the savage vs. civilized halfling thesis, or any number of similar constructions stemming from associations with the Pristine Tower, or seker's illusionist-halflings-are-exceptions posit. In the end it seems just as simple, to me at least, as prymusferal makes it. There were four other SMs around the oba when she made the haflling claim, and no one corrected her interpretation of halflings not being able to be sorcerers. Also, the oba uses the present tense, inferring that even in modern times halflings could not become sorcerers, thus making it difficult to accept the "halflings have changed over the millennia issue" concept. It just seems to ridiculous that all the SMs would be in error about halflings, and indeed Sadira herself even confirms the SMs' interpretation, very strongly suggesting that once again modern halflings, a race with which Sadira is surely acquainted, currently cannot cast wizardly magic (note that she does not bring up Nok as an exception." Simply put, it seems that nearly all evidence points to the fact that halflings cannot cast wizardly magic of any sort in the PP (possible exceptions exist: one being p. 284 as halflings being considered as possible masters of the Way and "magic", whatever that means).
Let's see.... all the SK's learned about halflings and magic from one source..... Rajaat.... so why would they argue with her statement..... And as I said before they could consider Halfling illusionists and sorcerers to be two very different things.
In all truth, I enjoy halfling illusionists (be they gnomish parallels or not) in early Dark Sun products. Again, as I have stated, it simply seems a rather serious discrepency, one which I surely wish could have been avoided by the original writers. However one wishes to reconcile the contradiction between the PP and the other 1st box canon products I leave to other posts.
In closing, I have argued for the possibility of many "solutions" to the Nok problem, and indeed there seem to me to be those with greater degrees of logic and citations supporting them. Indeed, I have even offered that Nok may be simply a druid/psionicist (spirit of the land?), and not a wizard at all (although I sit with this quite uncomfortably).
Personally I see Nok as a Illusionist/Psionicist (and at level 21/21 in 2nd edition terms he was a "preserver" dragon) in the old box set version.... he is something else entirely in the write up me and Penn did but that was to get him to work with the rules for 3.5.... in my own rpg system he is more like the original box set version.
As to the advanced levels I have suggested for Nok, there seems some evidence to credit them. Agis' exclamation as to the power of Nok's mind has been frequently cited, and even though we have Neeva responding that Kalak's mind will be stronger, (which is probably another of Denning's factoids via a character, even though Neeva would likely have little way of knowing any of this for sure), Kalak's mind still could very easily be stronger than Nok's via enhanced stats or whatever other excuse one might conjure up. Advanced levels of an extreme nature would also be required to make the items he did (at least one is undeniably an artifact/relic). Furthermore, advanced levels would be required to summon energy from animal life. Even further, advanced being form, in the form of a spirit of the land, seems to make Nok's post-death transformation into a tree much more explicable, as really no other solution I can easily come up with would explain this.
I have discussed this subject ad nauseam. Hopefully it will be useful to those involved with this most irritable issue. I apologize for the haphazard way I have argued this, as I, as we all do, have other things to do.
I find your illusionist theory arguments stimulating seker. I am hoping you sway me on this issue, or that I sway you, as it is quite the difficult problem to me, and I would like to have it solved, for I am in somewhat of a quandry at the moment if I should allow illusionist halflings, or wizard halflings at all.
Happy Darksunning!
Again the issue with him becoming a "tree" (it was actually thorny vines he had coming out of the crater which were more like a form of plant undead) could be alot of things and few fit anything that we actually can fit by the old rules for spirits of the land even.
NOTE 1: From seker:
And you are reading into what was actually written there. As far as I was aware, Troy Denning was aware of the rpg rules while writing the novel, so would have been aware of the fact that halflings could be illusionists at that point in the novel.... so it makes no sense for him to be outright saying that the rule book is wrong.
Certainly, I hope Nok was aware of the halfling illusionist possibility, and as I noted above, perhaps we have a some good evidence for this on p. 284 of VP, where the heroes worry about halfling masters of psionics and "magic", whatever that means. Then again, he might not have been familiar with his own 1st box rule book as we might hope. Another possibility, and this unfortunately seems to me an all too likely possibility, is that Denning simply changed his mind or "forgot" about halfling wizards somehow when he wrote the oba's statement. Then again, he might have just run over the mechanics issue in preference to story. We shall have to ask him!
it is possible he forgot I agree.
NOTE 2: from seker:
Sure he could view it this way.... but that is not how the setting has it, in every version of the setting so far... ONLY dragons need the orbs for their most powerful magic. (and Nok for some odd reason, per the Denning interview he was supposed to be something like a preserver dragon.... which I much preffer over the avangions myself)
-I have opened the way for an "avangion" element of Nok... regardless, it seems that, in this interpretation, that Nok would have to be an "advanced being" to use magic as he did, although he need not necessarily be a "dragon" (spirit of the land??)
The only problem is that only dragons use obsidian orbs like that.... which is why I preffer Nok as a Dragon (preserver or defiler is optional..... as he is never seen casting without the orb)
ADDENDUM: Notice Ktandeo's cane requires an activation word, then command words, to use its "dragon-magic" powers (whatever that means). Nok does not seem to require any words at all to begin to activate his own globe, which helps imply to me that he is of 21st level status (or something like that), in order to use such magic himself, as surely Ktandeo and Sadira are not 21st level and thus require a highly enchanted item to draw power from animal life. (cf. 84, AE)
exactly
If Denning's extra-novel comments are accurate, as Pennarin has seemed to confirm, then for clarity's sake, I offer Nok:
21st level spirit of the land (major access earth/minor access rain) with an advanced being exception to advance as dual clased preserver, rising to 21st level+ mage preserver (not illusionist) so as to be strong enough to take energy from animal life as only an advanced being (spirit of the land) can do.
This would explain Nok's peculiar "death" and transformation into a tree (spirit of the land).
Advanced levels explain Nok's artifact making ability.
Preserver mage subclass explains the invocation/evocation and seeming abjuration powers of Ktandeo's cane (as well as the sheer magnitude of its powers) without resorting to tenuous illusionist arguments (as well as they conform to Denning's supposed support)
Spirit of the Land advanced being form explains the ability to draw from animal life (even though it seems that the spirit of the land metemorphosis had not yet been devised by the writing of the book, the paradigm fits postfactum, especially if Denning himself was not terribly clear as to what Nok actually was)
Spirit of the Land form explains Nok's claims that he "is" the forest.
Etc!
If Denning's extra-novel statements are in error, a simple spirit of the land (21st level) may still apply, if one accepts the arguments I provided in my previous post.
May the debate continue!
it is an interesting take, but I really disagree with Nok even being a druid let alone a spirit of the land.... Druids have always been one of my favorite classes in every version of D&D.... and he really does not fit the way they are designed at all personality wise.... he is a heck of alot closer to the SK's in his presented attitudes.
And by everything in the Novels and the first box sets.... ONLY dragons use animal life to cast... hence Nok would by definition have to be a dragon.... plus you may have noticed he knows a heck of alot about the other dragons and how they come about for just being a druid.... even the veiled alliance did not know the reasons for the ziggurat.
I have to take my son to t ball right now I will be back to correct the other posts when I get back.