Wizards, I own most of your books. I play in most old and new settings. But as a long time customer and for others, who fall in this category, bring back Greyhawk as an entity, as a setting. A book beautiful book like Eb. or FR. At least give this it a shot. See how it goes, if the product sells poorly put an end to Greyhawk once and for all! If it sells well, then will you please support its fans? Erik Mona and the rest at Paizo did a great job with the "age of Worms" adventures and still are, thought it's really sad they can't even use the name "City of Greyhawk"!?!
Please, an update to this great setting is needed.
Any Greyhawk lovers weather old or new please gather and say, "We want Greyhawk"!
ZW.
PS: I've restarted the post of sword_war444, but I did as much typos myself! :P Sorry guys and girls.
ZW.
... let's go WOTC shotcallers, grab that machiato, and that corporate danish, get in those "marketing meetings" and sell the idea!
... the Old Bossman big-wig might even give you a pat on the head if it was YOUR idea that brought in some extra bucks.
Dungeon Master
http://www.dungeonsdragonsblog.com
Wish List:
World of Greyhawk Campaign Setting
City of Greyhawk
And as for whether WotC has the rights to Greyhawk, this has been discussed on many forums. Yes, they do, in fact, have the rights to Greyhawk.
*Points to link in signature*
I guess the 100+++ members in that thread would welcome new material as well... :D
You get my vote.
Bocklin
If wizards would produce a well-made sourcebook on GH, I would buy it.
Stefan
Yeah. But if they released a book, I'd buy it. Sure. I'm just not going to hang by neck waiting.
Wotc? Screw 'em. Carpe diem. Want a sourcebook? Build it. There are any number of opportunities to do so over at Canonfire.com. This messageboard talks the talk, hoping that some nabob at Wotc will notice - fat chance. Canonfire walks the walk. You all talk? The answer is a URL away.
Hell yes!
A Player's Guide would be nice for the sake of new players who have never played in Greyhawk. Most DMs will aquire whatever materials they need. The only bad thing is the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer is out of print for DMs to add to their libraries.
I forgot to add that to my wish list. Ok.
Revised Wish List:
World of Greyhawk Campaign Sourcebook
City of Greyhawk
Player's Guide to the World of Greyhawk
Scarlet Brotherhood
Great Kingdom
Elves of Celene
Barbarians of the North
Underdark of the Flaeness (sp?) (maybe just a generic underdark book)
...
Anyway, I would be happy with just the Campaign sourcebook and city guide, though.
Guys, we aren't in the 70s anymore, we need new Greyhawk material, but if all of you just go silent or cry because you won't win this, of course nothing will see the light of day.
Let me be clear on this, I hope for a Future Greyhawk, NOT a Greyhawk of the past. Let's finally discover what GG and others never explored. Let's see what's hidden on the East Side of things, eck let's blow up the free city and make this the most impressive ruins to date.
Weather we succeed or not, at least we will give this a good fight. WotC will run out of products to re-ash from 3.0 So this is the best time to unite all Greyhawkers from old and new.
On top of Shouting, "We want Greyhawk" Give your ideas on what you want to see.
Show WotC you care, or else they will definitely not care either!
ZW.
I never cried because we wouldn't "win." I did however "hell yes" the suggestion that there's plenty for Greyhawk being done over at Canonfire.com. If you have such amazing ideas for Greyhawk, go post them. Otherwise, quit wasting our time with your half-assed, poorly-spelled posts and mail your own damn letters to Wizards and then sit in your room, in a chair, and twidle your thumbs until they respond. If you hit forty before they do...keep waiting.
First I'm not English and I'm not American, so don't even go there! Second, chill out because I didn't even mention your nametag anywhere and I never stated that I had "amazing" ideas either. I'm just trying to gather people with similar interests, if that's not your thing that’s fine. But could you at the very least show some respect? I also thought USA promoted Freedom of Speech? I guess not... Cool to see we have mature and constructive responses around here. Yay!!!
ZW.
Oggie
Now, if I only remembered where I found that map in the first place..
...there's plenty for Greyhawk being done over at Canonfire.com.
Not being much of a GH fan, I had never seen Canonfire before. However, as a longtime Planescape and Ravenloft afficionado, I have become quite a fan of the fansites. (Planewalker.com and the Fraternity of Shadows, respectively, fill this role for me.) Canonfire is a great one, from what I can see. Heck, it even mentions Azalin a time or two, and that's something the sourcebooks apparently never did.
Ask for the sourcebooks from WotC, but until you get them, make your own! Contribute to the COMMUNITY.
For my part, maybe Wizards could work cycles between the Realms and Greyhawk. A year here, a year there. The more high-quality Campaign Setting books we have, the more chances there are of everyone finding what they want and playing in it.
For my part, maybe Wizards could work cycles between the Realms and Greyhawk. A year here, a year there. The more high-quality Campaign Setting books we have, the more chances there are of everyone finding what they want and playing in it.
That would work for me too!
ZW.
we have to put together our efforts for this goal.
Silver Dragon
I can finally see why WotC won't bother; not even you care to fight the fight anymore. C'mon, is this all Greyhawkers can dish out?
Guys, we aren't in the 70s anymore, we need new Greyhawk material, but if all of you just go silent or cry because you won't win this, of course nothing will see the light of day.
Let me be clear on this, I hope for a Future Greyhawk, NOT a Greyhawk of the past. Let's finally discover what GG and others never explored. Let's see what's hidden on the East Side of things, eck let's blow up the free city and make this the most impressive ruins to date.
Weather we succeed or not, at least we will give this a good fight. WotC will run out of products to re-ash from 3.0 So this is the best time to unite all Greyhawkers from old and new.
On top of Shouting, "We want Greyhawk" Give your ideas on what you want to see.
Show WotC you care, or else they will definitely not care either!
ZW.
Something new would be great.
The Great Kingdom (Ahlissa, North Kingdom, Solnor Compact and the Bone March).
The Scarlet Brotherhood and the Iron League (Tilvanot, Sunndi, Onnwal, Irongate and Iron Hills, Dullstrand, Lords of the Isles).
Greater Nyrond (Nyrond, the Urnsts and the Pale).
The Empire of Iuz (Iuz, Horned Lands, Tenh, Bandit Lands)
Greater Furyondy (Furyondy, Dyvers, Verbobonc, Veluna, Highfolk and the Vesve, Shield Lands, Perrenland).
The Barbarians of the North (Rhizia inc. Ratik, Stonefist, Rovers, Wolf and Tiger Nomads, Blackmoor)
Greater Keoland (Keoland and satellites inc. Celene, the Pomarj and the Hold).
The Baklunish West (Zeif, Ekbir, Tusmit, Ket, Ull and the Paynims).
The Bakhoury Coast (Isles of the Dramidj, plus Mur, Risay and Komal).
The Jungles of the South (Amedio, Hepmonaland and the isles of the Pearl Sea).
The Lands of Zahind ("Zindia" of the Dragon Annual 1 map - also known as Zahind and the Hydranian Isles)
The Celestial Empire (Suhfang and environs inc. the Khanates and "Orcreich")
The Lands of the Claw ("Nippon" of the Dragon Annual 1 map plus Vulzar, the Vanian confederation etc from Erik Mona's "Bounds of the Oerth")
The Lands of Chainmail (revive Chainmail and tie it into Greyhawk).
Hitaxa and the Lands of the Great Desert (The rest of the south-west Flanaess a la "Bounds of the Oerth").
Anakeris - the Lost Continent.
Clash of Empires - a historical setting book dealing with the Sueloise Imperium and the Baklunish Empire at their height inc. a piece on the lands of the Oeridians.
The Spidered Throne - in similar vein, the Sheldomar and elsewhere under the rule of Vecna.
Will I ever see any of this? Possibly, but I'm not holding my breath.
P.
Second, it might also be a better idea to cajole the "old timers" with tact and persuasion instead of suggesting that they're clapped out, have no fight and that their apathy is what's keeping GH in limbo (you might not have meant that, but that's what your post suggested). If you haven't already, take a look at what the "old timers" have been doing on Canonfire, in the Oerth Journal and in Living Greyhawk. A lot of people on this list are heavily involved in keeping the flame alive and spreading the horizons of the Known Oerth (see the threads here and on Canonfire, for example).
I think it's admirable that you care enough about GH to want to petition WotC to revive it, but if the grognards are less enthused than you are, it's because they've seen posts like this on average about twice or three times a year on GH boards across the 'Net ever since GH was cancelled the first time in the '90s. It doesn't mean you should give up, but it does temper a fella's enthusiasm with a healthy dose of "here we go again".
Finally, my wishlist.
A hardcover World of Greyhawk Setting Book updating the entire Flanaess to 600 CY (with or without inputs from the core parts of LG) - and with the production values of the Eberron and FR source books.
Faiths of the Flanaess - write ups on all the GH gods and their faiths.
Gem of the Flanaess - The City of Greyhawk - hardcover a la Waterdeep or Sharn.
A regions series (a la Five Nations) dealing with:
The Great Kingdom (Ahlissa, North Kingdom, Solnor Compact and the Bone March).
The Scarlet Brotherhood and the Iron League (Tilvanot, Sunndi, Onnwal, Irongate and Iron Hills, Dullstrand, Lords of the Isles).
Greater Nyrond (Nyrond, the Urnsts and the Pale).
The Empire of Iuz (Iuz, Horned Lands, Tenh, Bandit Lands)
Greater Furyondy (Furyondy, Dyvers, Verbobonc, Veluna, Highfolk and the Vesve, Shield Lands, Perrenland).
The Barbarians of the North (Rhizia inc. Ratik, Stonefist, Rovers, Wolf and Tiger Nomads, Blackmoor).
Greater Keoland (Keoland and satellites inc. Celene, the Pomarj and the Hold).
The Baklunish West (Zeif, Ekbir, Tusmit, Ket, Ull and the Paynims).
The Bakhoury Coast (Isles of the Dramidj, plus Mur, Risay and Komal).
The Jungles of the South (Amedio, Hepmonaland and the isles of the Pearl Sea).
The Lands of Zahind ("Zindia" of the Dragon Annual 1 map - also known as Zahind and the Hydranian Isles).
The Celestial Empire (Suhfang and environs inc. the Khanates and "Orcreich").
The Lands of the Claw ("Nippon" of the Dragon Annual 1 map plus Vulzar, the Vanian confederation etc from Erik Mona's "Bounds of the Oerth").
The Lands of Chainmail (revive Chainmail and tie it into Greyhawk).
Hitaxa and the Lands of the Great Desert (The rest of the south-west Flanaess a la "Bounds of the Oerth").
Anakeris - the Lost Continent.
Clash of Empires - a historical setting book dealing with the Sueloise Imperium and the Baklunish Empire at their height inc. a piece on the lands of the Oeridians.
The Spidered Throne - in similar vein, the Sheldomar and elsewhere under the rule of Vecna.
Will I ever see any of this? Possibly, but I'm not holding my breath.
P.
Kwint
1.) Continue fading GH out from all WoTC publications.
2.) Develop 4e without any reference to anything GH. The product should be free of all deities, characters, spells, and items GH related.
3.) Sell the GH property and all its related characters, deities, lands, proper names, etc to E. Gary Gygax for $1.
4.) Smile and pat yourselves on the back, knowing you have executed an objective virtually unknown in the corporate world: a selfless act of honor.
--Ghul
(forever a dreamer)
The Spidered Throne - in similar vein, the Sheldomar and elsewhere under the rule of Vecna.
This would soooo amazing!I can finally see why WotC won't bother; not even you care to fight the fight anymore. C'mon, is this all Greyhawkers can dish out?
Guys, we aren't in the 70s anymore, we need new Greyhawk material, but if all of you just go silent or cry because you won't win this, of course nothing will see the light of day.
Let me be clear on this, I hope for a Future Greyhawk, NOT a Greyhawk of the past. Let's finally discover what GG and others never explored. Let's see what's hidden on the East Side of things, eck let's blow up the free city and make this the most impressive ruins to date.
Weather we succeed or not, at least we will give this a good fight. WotC will run out of products to re-ash from 3.0 So this is the best time to unite all Greyhawkers from old and new.
On top of Shouting, "We want Greyhawk" Give your ideas on what you want to see.
Show WotC you care, or else they will definitely not care either!
ZW.
Hey ZW,
Now, is definately _NOT_ the time to petition Wotc, IMO. 4E is looming ever closer. I would not want GH continued as the "default" in 4E as it has been in 3X, yet, that might happen if Wotc were sufficiently petitioned now. It would be an easy "answer." After 4E releases, perhaps, a petition might be a thought.
I say, "perhaps," because I do not see print published GH as a necessity, certainly not exclusively by Wotc.
First, if you want any chance of a 3rd party other than Wotc to be able to license GH, GH cannot also be officially published by Wotc. That has been made fairly clear with the present edition.
Second, who is to say that print publishing by anyone is a necessity or even desireable?
The GH fan community is splintered. It has, however, managed to pull off some impressive work all the same. Harvester's Hero's has the amazing Greyhawk Index. Canonfire has its huge library of growing topical submissions. The Oerth Journal continues to publish and seemingly more frequently.
Fan published GH is very much a work in progress. While it is not "dignified" by print publication, that "dignity" means less and less as more publications go entirely electronic. The days when print absolutely defined "publication" are over.
I am personally quite content with (electronic) fan published materials. Many are demonstrably superior to anything published in print.
The process is then twofold - fan publication needs time to further solidify and organize - and electronic publication needs to grow more generally. Until electronic publishing comes more of age, Wotc needs to print products only in terms of D&D generally, to publicize the game engine. The settings can survive electronically very well without Wotc.
I would not be adverse to Wotc publishing GH, of course. Neither would I be adverse to Wotc licensing GH to a 3rd party publisher. Neither, however, do I see as an absolute necessity for GH to grow and prosper.
IMO, right now, rather than petitioning Wotc, one needs to support and help grow the fan community outside Wotc's aegis. Participating on GH messageboards or discussion lists is the least that can be done. Getting more involved with the OJ, Canonfire, Harvesters Heros or other fan sites, actually producing content, is better still. Grow the movement.
The time may come for a petition of one variety or another. Now, is not that time. At a minimum, 4E needs to release without GH as a default. Better yet, Living Greyhawk needs to finish its run. Both of the foregoing depriving Paizo of any ability to publish shadow_Hawk - the desparate or faint hearted fans placebo. Only when there is no print published GH anywhere, then, will it be time to consider how to advance GH's future - with a petition for print publication, if such would even be deemed necessary, - or otherwise.
"Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes."
How come you posted this here when the last one got moved to the Greyhawk boards?
Apparently this one got moved, too, although I didn't see any posts from a Wiz_O; they used to at least post to memorialize the point at which the thread got moved and to explain why.
I'd say that discussion of future Greyhawk products must be verboten on the Future Releases board.
Apparently this one got moved, too, although I didn't see any posts from a Wiz_O; they used to at least post to memorialize the point at which the thread got moved and to explain why.
I'd say that discussion of future Greyhawk products must be verboten on the Future Releases board.
It really frustrates me when they move greyhawk petition threads. getting the exposure on the Future Releases forum would only help us, but he keep shoving them back into the back corner in the dark, out of sight and out of mind.
...bring back Greyhawk as an entity, as a setting. A book beautiful book like Eb. or FR. At least give this it a shot. See how it goes, if the product sells poorly put an end to Greyhawk once and for all! If it sells well, then will you please support its fans?
The biggest problem here is they already did. They released the gods in 3.X, the D&D Gazetteer and then the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
They already tested the water and decided not to.So why on Odin's green Earth would they do it again? And if they did and it didn't sit well, would the fans ever, ever accept it put to an end once and for all?
No. They'd continue to create endless petitions and requests for more books.
Now I'm sure someone is tempted to reply with the Paizo quote about now. You know, this one:
...sold almost as well as Forgotten Realms. It was a really successful line of products.
[...]the manager of D&D at the time decided that we had too many campaign settings [...] It had everything to do with not starting the proliferation of game settings and nothing to do with sales. Just for the record.
First off, keyword there is "almost". As in "almost as well as FR". If it has sold as well as or better than they'd have chosen Greyhawk as the 3E setting. Still, the Realms is living on borrowed time and will likely not get an update to 4E whenever that comes out (my money's on 2011 at the earliest).
Greyhawk was around almost a decade before the Realms. It has ALL the classic adventures and helped define both the setting and the game. It had its time in the sun, let it go. It still has the support of the RPGA, which is more that a lot of other games and settings can say (Living Death? Going. Living Force? Going. ).
As long as the fans support it, Greyhawk will never be completely dead. The community simply has to rally together like the Planescape, Ravenloft or Dark Sun communities and produce some high quality unofficial information and expansions. Heck, and none of those have publishing company(s) putting out *almost* official products (Paizo, Troll Lord Games).
Stop petitioning. Stop whining. Stop demanding. You want Greyhawk then get out there and make some damn Greyhawk!
First off, keyword there is "almost". As in "almost as well as FR". If it has sold as well as or better than they'd have chosen Greyhawk as the 3E setting. Still, the Realms is living on borrowed time and will likely not get an update to 4E whenever that comes out (my money's on 2011 at the earliest).
Greyhawk was around almost a decade before the Realms. It has ALL the classic adventures and helped define both the setting and the game. It had its time in the sun, let it go. It still has the support of the RPGA, which is more that a lot of other games and settings can say (Living Death? Going. Living Force? Going. ).
As long as the fans support it, Greyhawk will never be completely dead. The community simply has to rally together like the Planescape, Ravenloft or Dark Sun communities and produce some high quality unofficial information and expansions. Heck, and none of those have publishing company(s) putting out *almost* official products (Paizo, Troll Lord Games).
Stop petitioning. Stop whining. Stop demanding. You want Greyhawk then get out there and make some damn Greyhawk!
Wow, that was completely inaccurate and fruitless.
1. The purpose of saying that Greyhawk sold "almost" as well as FR was to point out that Greyhawk being canned was not the result of not selling well. Even the Lisa Stevens at Paizo made that clear. You took her exact meaning and changed it to mean the complete opposite. No matter how you slice it, Greyhawk's sales had nothing to do with ending its product line. It was more about spending resources for FR simply because they felt the two settings were too similar and FR had a strong product line because of its novels.
2. Because of its affiliation with the RPGA, Greyhawk cannot be fostered by an official community effort. Dark Sun, Planescape and others are officially recognized by WotC. Greyhawk can't have that official support given its current use.
3. The reason for wanting new products such as a Player's Guide to Greyhawk is because there are new players who have never explored Greyhawk, who have never even touched D&D until 3e, and need such a resource.
4. If people want to try to petition, then let them. Berating others' efforts because you disagree with it has no place in this thread. I'd rather purchase an official product than try to waste what little time I have obsessing over the creation of a homemade Player's Guide for a game of make-believe.
PS - IMHO, if Greyhawk had received the marketing and product support FR and Eberron had, I think it would sell extremely well.
3. The reason for wanting new products such as a Player's Guide to Greyhawk is because there are new players who have never explored Greyhawk, who have never even touched D&D until 3e, and need such a resource.
There are players new to D&D and 3E who have never explored Red Steel or Birthright, but I wouldn't expect WotC to spend a tens of thousands of dollars publishing books for those settings.
There can only be so many published books and official settings. Greyhawk has its chance before the torch was passed to the Realms. And soon, in a few years, the Realms will end too and petitions will begin there.
It'd be nice if WotC followed TSR's footsteps and drove themselves into debt and bankrupcy flooding the markets with a myriad of settings, but there's something to be said about hedging your bets and just sticking to one or two core lines.
4. If people want to try to petition, then let them. Berating others' efforts because you disagree with it has no place in this thread. I'd rather purchase an official product than try to waste what little time I have obsessing over the creation of a homemade Player's Guide for a game of make-believe.
Online petitions take about as much effort to participate in as forwarding a chain email. Nobody but nobody pays them any attention.
Especially small, two-paged petitions posted in tucked-away and nigh forgotten corners of message boards. Do you really think anyone who has any official decision making clout is even going to look in at the message boards? Okay, you may get the new 'hot' author poking his head in to discuss his world, but I doubt we'll see Gygax read anything here.
You might as well circulate a handbill for all the good it will do.
You want more Greyhawk then organize a letter writing campaign. Flood WotC with mail.
Or found your own publishing company and begin negotiations to licence the line from WotC like Soverign Press or White Wolf/ArtHaus.
Or find a way to fund the RPGA to allow it to publish books.
Or simply make a wiki and write-out a large campaign sourcebook there. There's already a wealth of campaign and world information on the net, it just needs to be organized, compiled and made reader/newbie friendly.
Or you can simply stay in your chair, hit reply, spent five seconds burning me and convince yourself you've done something.
As a DM I want more maps detailing towns and their surrounding regions with major NPC in all their details. Erik Mona did a GREAT job with Diamond Lake. But I want to see more. Like Ul-Bakak, Zulern, Beltender etc... It can be any town/city really.
As for petitioning...Maybe if each Greyhawk fan flooded the future releases with "WE WANT GREYHAWK" with a new tread each time, maybe they would listen. Just a thought...
ZW.
But I want to see more. Like Ul-Bakak, Zulern, Beltender etc... It can be any town/city really.
As for petitioning...Maybe if each Greyhawk fan flooded the future releases with "WE WANT GREYHAWK" with a new tread each time, maybe they would listen. Just a thought....
Alas that'd probably get you banned from the boards.
As for Ul Bakak, there's a rather nice map (if I do say myself) in the LG Core scenario The Traitor's Road, if you can get hold of it somewhere.
P.
I happened to spend breakfast with Jonathan Tweet during GAMA last Tuesday (02/14/06). The Monday night dinner was all about the new miniatures game coming out, Dreamblade. This is a 40mm chess-like mini's game. Chess-like in that it uses a 5x5 board, and involves strategy and tactics.
But the Tuesday breakfast was all about D&D and its mini's game. They've got the Humoungus Black Dragon and the Oh, frack, I couldn't save vs fear if my life depended on it, Red Dragon. The bottom of the flame is as big as my Red Dragon or even Gold Dragon.
But during some of the time that WotC people were up on stage discussing things, the people at the table started talking when they noticed my stores name, "Greyhawk Games." We started discussing Planescape (very little discussion), Dark Sun, Dragon Lance, and of course Greyhawk. Dark Sun was discussed very briefly, and we talked about Sovereign Stone's handling of DL.
Of course, all of us at the table talked about our favorite setting. It's typically the favorite setting of retail store owners that play or played D&D. During this, JT only spoke up a few times. He said that it was very, very, very unlikely that WotC would "ever" produce a new Greyhawk source book (I did mention to him of this thread here, the previous one, the ones that have circled since the 90's when GH was dropped the first time). He said that with the RPGA and Dragon/Dungeon doing such a fine job, WotC would not take it back. The RPGA, love it or hate it (my choice) will continue to handle Greyhawk for the future. He did say something about Dungeon's Adventure Series and that it appeared that they would be having another GH related series or two. IIRC, he's in a game with EM and Monte (of if not, was or at least talks to the two).
I do agree that Greyhawk would benefit from an official setting source book. Since it's not gonna happen, lets look at options.
Look at the upcoming Bards Gate (I saw it at GAMA) from Necromancer Games. It's an awesome City Setting book. I've read through the first few pages while standing there. They flesh out the city, but not in absolute depth. They say the street of dreams (I'm making that name and rest of this up), has 4 bars, and the most notable location is the Magic Shoppe by Zayag the Maddened. The map is really very plain. It doesn't even say Bards Gate on it, which is good, since that does make it easier to insert it into your own world. I also saw Monte's Ptolus campaign city book. It's 650+ pages, with a 400pg PDF cd. You can't actually say this about many books, but this is "pretty." Visually and well laid out. Much nicer than Bards Gate. But Ptolus isn't a $40 book, it's $120. A Players Guide to Ptolus - 32pgs - is out or will be very soon. They were handing this out, I just haven't looked at it.
Bards Gate is much easier to set in Greyhawk, not as GH City itself, but another river based city. Switching the gods to GH and nation gods shouldn't be too difficult (or keep the gods that are listed in the back of the book, same with NPC's, monsters and magical items).
Green Ronin's Thieves World book is awesome, and I could see it fitting someplace closer to the Sea Princes. I picked up the book at GAMA, and have perused through it, but I did not read through it. Nyambie's African sourcebook can be used as a supplement to the Scarlet Brotherhood's Hepmonaland.
So we do have sources in which we could use for Greyhawk, although they do take work, and are not Greyhawk.
So instead of asking WotC to produce the source book, use what is out there, or what is coming out, as an option for what and how to produce our own. Of course, if it were good enough, WotC might option it.
Who knows.
Most importantly however is tone and manner in discussing the restoration of Greyhawk as a campaign setting.
To petition WotC for the setting to have new books published isn't absurd, but it is a fight and a long, long and uphill fight. There are many people on these boards here that have been fighting and fighting, missing, bashing, and yet, we still hold our ground. It is nice to see "new" people to these boards get into the fight, and its nice to have someone else carry the standard for a while, but those "new" people need to become "old" people. Not just new to Greyhawk or old to Greyhawk, but young and old to the fight.
The "I just found Greyhawk and I need a source book," "I've come back to Greyhawk and I need a source book," and the worst "Gygax started Greyhawk so A) WotC won't publish it, B) it wouldn't be Greyhawk if he didn't pen the next book, & C) it would have to be non-stated, so that it could be any edition compliant" are some of the discussions that we "old-timers" have heard, and used. Others include, He (Gygax) did pen the rest of Oerth, with Legendary Adventures' Aerth, Yerth, and whatever else he's written. Ok, if you are so pent up for a source book for Greyhawk, use the new Castles & Crusades books by EGG and Rob Kuntz published by Troll Lords. They're for their campaign setting, based upon their ideal of Greyhawk. I saw the thick 300+ book for Castle Greyhawk - Yrrrsgburg or such. And the Darlene map. Didn't get to get my hands on it, but it is in retail stores.
In the end you have to make due with what you have. 2e books, the LGG, CanonFire, Necromancer's books converted, EGG's books converted (LJ/ C&C), and in the end, keep posting that a new book is desired. But know that a 3.5 book for GH isn't forth coming, not with 4e 1-3yrs away.
Be well.
First time using the quote someone else feature. Hope I did it right.
There are players new to D&D and 3E who have never explored Red Steel or Birthright, but I wouldn't expect WotC to spend a tens of thousands of dollars publishing books for those settings.
There can only be so many published books and official settings. Greyhawk has its chance before the torch was passed to the Realms. And soon, in a few years, the Realms will end too and petitions will begin there.
It'd be nice if WotC followed TSR's footsteps and drove themselves into debt and bankrupcy flooding the markets with a myriad of settings, but there's something to be said about hedging your bets and just sticking to one or two core lines..
--
Jester here sounds like Johnathan Tweet, Tuesday morning. As I said in my previous post, JT was there. It was early and a blur and I could only remember so much. But what the Jester here said, is almost what JT said (are you JT, or were you at the table with us????). He did say that it did do well, but the reason TSR floundered for so long was its vast campaign settings. He said this when the guy sitting next to me kept up with Planescape, bring PS back. The guy asked about having it (PS) sold out like DL/ Ravenloft (another discussion for 5min at the table and I5 is the best and should have left RL alone vs. I5 sucked but credit was due for starting RL).
I returned to GH talk by mentioning having Troll Lords or Kenzer take over - since their worlds are so similliar (if further fleshed out, at least based on Oerth) and that I'm sure each would love to have it over their own worlds, esp. TL with EGG/Kuntz/Darlene working with them currently.
JT implied that it wasn't likely. Don't remember what he said exactly, but it goes along with the "there will never, never be a book from WotC for Greyhawk" theme (not a quote from JT, just an implication).
I could see us doing this - oh wait, there is a post here on these boards, that one, right down there - Players Guide to GH. Part of the problem is that most of the NPC's and such are 2e classes, and with 3.5 there are so many new ones. Would it fit better for Turosh Mak to be a barbarian + fighter? What about others that would fit the Hexblade class, or the Warlock. How about a GH'ified Samurai (I call the Dwur Samurai's Thanes and replace the two swords with Hammer and Battleaxe).
Be Well.
The only realistic option for a Greyhawk relaunch will be under the d20 license.
BTW, don't just see the shadows, people, see also the light.
Last year, we got ToH and White Plum Mountain updated, re-mapped, and for free! Greyhawk may be fading, but it's still there.
;)
Ivid the Living said ToH and WPM were updated? Wherezitat?
Yer not talking the stuff from Dungeon (I didn't think it was either of those that were updated) are you?
Please point to the location, or if WotC's removed 'em let me know where else to get them (lots of times on CF! I'll have the file for backup and point to the right location [or so it was when I was heavily into making sure our downloads were awesome each week]).
Be Well.
Hi all -
Ivid the Living said ToH and WPM were updated? Wherezitat?
Yer not talking the stuff from Dungeon (I didn't think it was either of those that were updated) are you?
Please point to the location, or if WotC's removed 'em let me know where else to get them (lots of times on CF! I'll have the file for backup and point to the right location [or so it was when I was heavily into making sure our downloads were awesome each week]).
Be Well.
Here is the link to the two adventures.
Tomb of Horrors and White Plume Mountain Updates
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mw/20051129a
Yes I want to see the nice books and accessories for the setting, however if any one ever printed a Greyhawk accessory that destroyed the City of Greyhawk itself and left it to ruins. I seriously doubt much support would be their for the new setting. As it stands now most fans of the setting feel it's dead. You can't revive it by killing it's namesake.
I say put the LGG back in print with about several start up adventures. However here's the kicker you don't know which one you get each LGG would come with a different adventure included. This way a New York/New Jersey LG region person might get to see an adventure that is normally only available to people in Ohio, or some other regions. However not only can you voteon it here but you can also support those sites that support the setting you love. It worked for Ravenloft and Darksun, heck if you want to be technical Ravenloft is actually a spin off of Greyhawk we all remember where Strahd first appeared.
So remember this no matter what happens support those sites that have supported GReyhawk always cause without them Greyhawk truly would be dead.
1. WOTC suits rarely visit the boards so by posting all this we're basically talking to the wall.
2. The numerous E-Petitions and such are nice but E-petitions rarely if ever work. It's too hard to track if the people are signing this are real. What you need to do is co-ordinate with gamestores and conventions and get a petition drive going with paper petitions with names addresses and Telephone numbers. As much verifiable info as you can get. Then get all the petitions together make duplicates and mail the originals to WOTC in a huge package and wait.
3. Then hope that when they do get the message and get a GH book out they don't ruin it like they have FR with umpteen million 'must-have' products or yearly Oerth shaking events.
As much as I wish to see GH back in print I fear it getting to detailed. The beauty of GH has always been the ability of DM's to shape the world and only need one setting box or book to run the world instead of The setting book, Magic of Oerth, Races of Oerth, Power of Oerth and other ad nauseum products.
Hi all -
Ivid the Living said ToH and WPM were updated? Wherezitat?
Yer not talking the stuff from Dungeon (I didn't think it was either of those that were updated) are you?
I see good Scoti and Amaril have already brought the answer.
So, one can cleary see that Greyhawk has still a lobby at WotC and that the times aren't that bad - or at least I think so.
If only two more of those modules are released this year. That will be more than enough Greyhawk material, for the n00bs at least.
As to a comprehensive WoG Gaz, I would say that the LGG still works. But maybe one could persuade WotC to put this or an older version of the setting online for free? - *Default* for me implies that the info is easy available for everyone, and the PHB and the DMG don't exactly cover the setting...
So, one can cleary see that Greyhawk has still a lobby at WotC and that the times aren't that bad - or at least I think so.
Well - it doesn't necessarily mean that. ToH and WPM are both classic dungeons that happen to be set in Greyhawk. I'm betting that it was their "classicness" rather than their "Greyhawkness" that got them updated.
If they bring out a 3.x City of Skulls, then I'll believe it.
Sorry to rain on the parade. :raincloud
P.
Let's look what this year brings - if the next free release is Nightmare Keep, of course, or Undermountain, well, then I have to surrender...
But as long as we don't hear any bad news, I am comvinced that there's still hope.
What I really don't need to see is more general geography information reprinted for the 10th time since the 80s. I don't need another update to the timeline. Leave Dragon and Dungeon to produce setting information in ways like they've done with the adventure paths and backdrops (like Hardby and Alhaster). Many of the Dungeon adventures produced are set in Greyhawk already or can easily be placed there (and the magazine should be sure to provide a Greyhawk sidebar to help with that). The critical threats articles gives them a good vehicle to update our favorite main characters. We have some really good fluff out there already for Greyhawk - we just need a single, top quality 3.5 product that gives DMs and Players the crunch they need to really play a great Greyhawk game (when combined with the core rules).
L
Second, who is to say that print publishing by anyone is a necessity or even desireable?
I am personally quite content with (electronic) fan published materials. Many are demonstrably superior to anything published in print.
The process is then twofold - fan publication needs time to further solidify and organize - and electronic publication needs to grow more generally. Until electronic publishing comes more of age, Wotc needs to print products only in terms of D&D generally, to publicize the game engine. The settings can survive electronically very well without Wotc.
I agree with most of this, can we make an electronic players handbook? What can be put in the book without WOTC having a problem? One of my more learned colleges will have to answer that question. If WOTC has no problems then by all means lets do it. One resource is better than what we currently have. A previous thread had indicated a willingness to start this project, if it is under way is the any thing you need from any of us? I am more than willing to help all you need to do is ask.
You know, I can't help but think we could kill two birds with the same stone by going with Chatdemon's "Mystoerth" map. Fans from the Known World (aka Mystara) setting are about as rabid as we are about GH, so I feel both groups working together could achieve pretty much anything.
Now, if I only remembered where I found that map in the first place..
http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=658
And it's worth mentioning that that is merely my realigned and prettied up version of the original idea by James "Mystaros" Mishler, which can be found:
http://pandius.com/mystghmp.jpg
But I've also been typing in threads just like this for years, and alas, nothing new for Greyhawk. It's just not going to happen.
I have recently gotten into Erde and the designers of it show what true love for a game and setting can do when not run by a business model or market report. It just seems I'm liking suit and tie roleplaying alot less these days...
I developed a hatred for FR because every product during 2nd ed run was based in FR only. They took items that were originally from GH and made it FR to crush the original setting.
Greyhawk should be made into a D20 book. Anything based around a specific setting only should be a d20 book and not core.
Why must everything Wizards put out be setting based? It should not for anything except selling a game setting. Generic will sell more because people will decide if they want it in their setting or not based on the merits of the item and not the name of the setting. Many people don't buy because a perfectly good product has a setting attacked to it when you could place the info inside anywhere.
That said I will play in my version of Greyhawk which has the areas beyond the original 1st ed map already created by me. I would love to receive more infor for the original setting anyway that I can get it. The freedom that Greyhawk's less cluttered history gives me is so much better for gaming than a world contaminated by hundreds of books which have players making assumptions about where my campaign should be going.
I would buy any new Greyhawk accessory put out, though I'd love to have an entire book on the City of Greyhawk and an updated (fleshed out) World of Greyhawk -
- Of course, I would buy Greyhawk material if it were well-written.
- I already do. I purchased a subscription to Dungeon and Dragon specifically because they continue to publish material that is directly relevant to my Greyhawk games. I also bought the SCAP and plan to buy the AoWAP for the same reason.
- If anyone were listening to me, which I assume they're not, don't start with the regional stuff. Start with something with a tie to storyline. Example: The Circle of Eight. Write a sourcebook with about 1/2 crunch and 1/2 fluff on the Circle, and you'll get plenty of cross-setting purchases. Throw in one prestige class for apprentices of each major figure (I'd love to take levels in "The Hand of Bigby" or "Mordenkainen's Faithful" in any setting) along side the lore of the tower, their political machinations, etc.
- Do not fall into the trap of changing everything because you're touching the setting again. Lots of folks are running the adventure paths, and would be potential customers if you left the world alone enough that what you publish is releveant to them.
Yeah, it sucks balls, but no one thought to mention that when Wotc and Keith Baker were working behind the scenes to relegate Greyhawk to the shadows.
No one but me.
Another Vote for Greyhawk!
But like many of the posters here, I want Greyhawk to be respected.
----Locksley92
I want to see it taken back to the original 'Hawk. No stupid Greyhawk Wars and back to the Folio and boxed set. Hell why don't they sell GH back to Gygax or to Troll Lord Games or a company that actuall respects Greyhawk and D&D instead of the clowns in charge now?
Sorry, but I'd rather Greyhawk go unpublished than published by Troll Lord Games.
So do I want to see a GH sourcebook - YES. But I think if it is even going to be attempted, it needs to be done very carefully.
get us our GH Wizards. and get it soon, but get it right!Michael Sandar
Bard of Midwood
Sorry, but I'd rather Greyhawk go unpublished than published by Troll Lord Games.
At least TLG has respect for D&D and the spirit the old school games were founded on. Unlike the clowns that have it now. They have had a hell of a success with C&C and since the Castle Zagyg books are nothing more than the original Castle Greyhawk Dungeon I see no better place for GH.
The only better place is to put GH back in the original creators hands since the problems with Greyhawk started when Lorrane Williams took it over and then WOTC got it. Niether repect the setting and neither desrve the rights to it.
I want to see it taken back to the original 'Hawk. No stupid Greyhawk Wars and back to the Folio and boxed set.
Careful there. Carl Sargent did an amazingly good job of clearing the cobwebs of a setting that was starting to stagnate.
I'm not claiming he respected canon-lore 100%, nor that his "vision" always ran in the same direction as EGG's, but at least he gave it his best and pulled it off. Let's not forget that EGG's articles in Dragon had steered the setting in that direction already for years. Everyone knew World War I was coming. It was only a matter of "when" and "how"...
There are a great many of us, true GH fans all, who actually love the "GH Wars" era and what it brought the setting (apart probably from the "Rary the traitor" headache..). I wouldn't be pleased to see it invalidated and I doubt I would be the only one.
According to Kuntz and Gygax they never got close to what was planned and I'd say the creators and campaigners in the original untarnished GH would have more weight than a hack that was trying to make another Forgotten Realms.
- Did he stay true to the setting's spirit? - I cannot tell, because frankly, I don't know if a *Greyhawk spirit* exists.
- Did my players learn to appreciate Greyhawk after playing campaigns based books? - Certainly.
;) ). Look - let's cut to the chase here and spare some time and bandwidth:
1: For Gygax fundamentalists, anything that isn't Gary 'n' Rob is blasphemy, GH Wars doubly so, since it was part of the evil TSR plot to destroy their campaign world and their creative legacy.
2: For non-grognards, GH Wars injected some dynamism into what was a stagnant steady state world of inconsequential skirmishing where men were men, women were buxom and doors were made for kicking in.
3: Never the twain will meet. So please, let's not bother to try. This argument has been rehashed a thousand times since GH Wars and FtA hit the shelves. Neither side is going to convince the other.
4: At the end of the day - there are many visions of GH - it's a big tent setting. Find what you like and run with that. What both sides have in common is that they love the World of Greyhawk. As a certain Mr L. Armstrong might have said: "What a wonderful world...". ;)
P.
Here we go again - the old Gygax Grognard vs Sargentine Progressiveist argument rises From the Ashes.
Look - let's cut to the chase here and spare some time and bandwidth
Aaaw, Paul, you take all the fun out of it. You know we hawkers love a good argument :P
Old skool dungeons for some, fiend-stalked ruins for others. :D
The Greyhawk Wars game, City of Greyhawk boxed set (wich is not the true Greyhawk city btw) and others were ripped off by hacks. All except From the Asses wich was an abomination all it's own.
Yes the war may have happened but it wasn't the way it was supposed to have and like everything else when taken from it's creator the product suffers from people with less talent and skill running it than the original designer.
I don't see the true Greyhawk as stagnated. Truth is all the 'innovations' that everyone that likes in FR Greyhawk were taken and butchered right from Gary's projects. Sargent in that respect was a hack.
That's taking it pretty far. By calling him a "hack" you're implying he set out to mess with canon on purpose, which I highly doubt. Carl was presented with a problem: how to put life back in a setting which Gary hadn't touched for years (and I am not saying it was by choice) while not ruining it by making it too different.
The fact that FR "stole" stuff from GH isn't CS's fault. Turn to Ed Greenwood and his buddies for that.
The Greyhawk Wars game, City of Greyhawk boxed set (wich is not the true Greyhawk city btw) and others were ripped off by hacks. All except From the Asses wich was an abomination all it's own.
Whoa! Lots of anger there. Calm down. If we stoop to insults, nothing constructive will get done so while I can appreciate you not liking CS's work, I would kindly ask you not to resort to derogatory comments.
No, the CoGH boxed set wasn't the "true" city of Greyhawk in that it didn't look 100% like the one described in EGG's Gord novels. That said, if you want to go canon all the way, then I regret to inform you that Oerth also got totally destroyed in those novels and, as such, shouldn't be available as a setting at all. Now, wouldn't that be fun..
People building on the work of others aren't hacks. They do what they can with the material they have at their disposal. Sometimes it comes out ok, sometimes not, but that doesn't make them hacks. WotC paid them to do what they did; they didn't show up one day at the door with a "let s... Gary's work!" idea.
And I would be curious to know in what way you think From the Ashes was a total failure? Arguments please.
Yes the war may have happened but it wasn't the way it was supposed to have and like everything else when taken from it's creator the product suffers from people with less talent and skill running it than the original designer.
Two things:
1) I would be very interested in reading anything directly written by Gary that states beyond the shadow of a doubt that this was NOT how HIS wars would have happened had he been at the helm. I already know he and Rob aren't happy about the whole Rary mess so you can skip that part.
2) Talent is a subjective thing. While I am a fan of Gary, I also recognize that he isn't the perfect author and "went overboard" a few times with GH products. It's his world, so I don't hold it against him. That said, I found material written by other GH authors (CS being the best, IMHO) to be both innovative and intriguing. No, it wasn't EGG's "style" but complemented it nicely all the same. However, I don't expect anyone to agree with me on that point considering it's only my opinion :surrender
EGG did a good job, but in saying that others also did well, I don't see any harassment against him.
Plus, and that is the one universal solution to all that a company can produce... If I don't like it, I won't buy it.
If you've any doubts about that - take a read of his work for Warhammer FRP: The Power Behind the Throne, Warhammer City, The Empire in Flames are some of the best campaign supplments ever put out in a RPG. For GH, The Marklands, Iuz the Evil, City of Skulls and Ivid the Undying are all well put-together pieces of work. You might not like what he did with GH, but, please, the man was not a hack.
P.
I'd also disagree that Carl Sargent was a hack.
Definitely not, Ivid the Undying, Marklands, and Iuz the Evil were probably the three best written supplements that TSR ever put out for Greyhawk (of course Ivid wasn't technically published it was probably the best of the three). You can certainly quibble about some inconsistencies with what came out prior but considering what he was given (a chaotic mess) I think he did a remarkable job.
If there was one writer that I would like to see come back to Greyhawk I think Sargent would top the list for me.
1) Iuz appearing as Vatun: Vatun is not even a god in the boxed set. Furthermore even in the LGG it's stated that Vatun's Clerics know he cannot be released without the five blades of Corusk. So what, suddenly the northern barbarians decide to become stupid and ignorant over their own lore wich is either (a) There is no Vatun or (B) Wow, he found a way out without the blades.
Even the new canon cotradicts the hackjobs.2) Why did Iuz Attack the Horned Society when they had already pledged to him? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep them around for his campaign in the Bandit Kingdoms?
3) Why did Iuz stop at the Shield Lands? Hey across the Nyr Dyv is Greyhawk and Dyvers both ripe for the picking. What ultimate revenge against Zagyg would it be to take the city and the castle for his imprisonment there?
None of it makes sense. Yes, there were rumors for some events. The Great Kingdom would have split eventually, something was brewing but I don't think it was that big. It would have been more believeable for Iuz to attack Furyondy or make some footholds in the Bandit Kingdoms.
It makes as much sense as Vecna being a god or 3e having the D&D label.
1) Iuz appearing as Vatun: Vatun is not even a god in the boxed set. Furthermore even in the LGG it's stated that Vatun's Clerics know he cannot be released without the five blades of Corusk. So what, suddenly the northern barbarians decide to become stupid and ignorant over their own lore wich is either (a) There is no Vatun or (B) Wow, he found a way out without the blades.
Er, no. If you read the WGS2 adventure (p.41), what happened is quite clear. The 5 blades are assembled and the mage starts reading the summoning spell. While he is halfway through, however, the blades all suddenly disappear and the "false" Vatun appears.
Yes, those present should have been a wee bit suspicious but summoning a god wasn't exactly something they did on a daily basis. So, who was to say this wasn't how it was supposed to happen? They were just happy to have succeeded. And when the thousands other barbarians showed up, all they could see was that their god was there, in the flesh.
2) Why did Iuz Attack the Horned Society when they had already pledged to him? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep them around for his campaign in the Bandit Kingdoms?
Uh? The HS never pledged to Iuz. EGG's article (Dragon, 1981) states quite clearly that Iuz & the HS had concluded pacts & treaties just to insure that they wouldn't have to worry about each other while launching new campaigns, each in their own corner of the Flanaess.
Even the WoG boxed set only says "the Horned Society is on favorable terms with Iuz". Nothing more.
The HS was LE while Iuz was CE. Is it thus so surprising that Iuz would turn on the HS in the end?
3) Why did Iuz stop at the Shield Lands? Hey across the Nyr Dyv is Greyhawk and Dyvers both ripe for the picking. What ultimate revenge against Zagyg would it be to take the city and the castle for his imprisonment there?
Lack of a navy will do that to your invasion plan. Just because Iuz could march thousands of troops into the Shield Lands doesn't mean he can make them cross the Nyr Dyv just by snapping his fingers, especially since the nations on the other side have a navy ready and able to sink his ships (orcs don't really make good sailors).
P.
I started a campaign in 90 or 91, I think before I got Wars or From the Ashes, wherein a civil war raged in the Horned Society thanks to a found artifact and a mad mage who decided she was going to take over the whole country. In my own campaign, it only lasted about three months in 579 CY and shook up the Horned Society but didn't rip it asunder. The PCs were responsible for destroying the despot who started the war and eliminating the artifact.
It didn't have a great effect on the timeline for the wars and turned into more of a prelude for the violence to come.
http://www.pied-piper-publishing.com/index.php?page=56&pimsw=0
Do a search on Robilar and it should reveal other info concerning the true Greyhawk.
Oh and Castle Zagyg from EGG published by Trolllords is also a really good book. Although the setting is not really Greyhawk physically, it is mentally! ;)
ZW.
--TSR writers take control and all is lost... Robilar bcomes a doofus and backstabs everyone and is now riding an ebony bull chasing pygmies in the Bright Desert...
My favorite line of all time :D .
Zagyg is awesome and I can't wait for the next book in the series! And I'm about to cream over Rob's new module. It's nice to see that in some form the true Gh survives.
Long subject.
I submitted whole bunches of letters from the Greytalk-L when I was subscribed to that illustrious group many moons (or Celenes) ago. A letter writing campaign, followed up with a strong and well-reasoned marketing plan, which EGG referred to as a "Very good first pass." It was all ignored, unfortunately.
So, what is left is what we have. Pieces and wholes, depending on how you look at it.
Some say it is dead; some say it lives in parts; and some say that it is whole. As Greyhawk is a feeling to me that the setting and in my case, the original campaign, instilled, then I would say that it lives as a whole in myself. For others, seeing print products might instead describe for them that same "whole". For others, having Zagyg or anything related to those days where the feeling was produced from the melding of D&D and Greyhawk (and my own world of Kalibruhn) as these two entities developed side by side--well, to some that is the Catlord's meow.
There is change in the air these days, has anybody noticed? Our industry is challenged to survive. Sales are plumetting. RPG Retail stores are closing en masse. Publishers are sinking as fast as lead balloons thrown into the Jewel River. There are similarities now when one compares our time to the time when the TSR of old was so challenged. But, it is difficult for those who maintain a rightfully superior position to always fluidly react to such change. That of course was the Old-TSR's thoughts and ultimate problem.
Criticizing WotC for being unrelenting will garner no results. Ever. Change in this case must come from an inner realization. I find it interesting that the Player's Handbook II has an image on it that harkens back to Old School days. Of course this could mean nothing more than a marketing gesture aimed at those with weak hearts for such icons. But, it definately means that someone or more someones actually had an interesting discussion regarding its use. Wouldn't you have paid to be the ears on their wall then? Small step. WotC needs more encouragment, I feel, to continue taking those steps. If in the end the same result is garnered then perhaps we all would have reached it with the dignity beftting all 'Hawkers.
Rob Kuntz
I will also say I could live with a GH that had the Wars in it. Not that I would like it but it would be acceptable to see GH in print.
However, I would like that the removed the whole Vecna mess from the canon since none of that made sense at all.
One last comment:
Rob,
I stepped way over bounds at anoth board and I want to apologize for offending you and your work. You should know what I am speaking of.
I'd buy it because I still create campaigns there.
The Living Gazeteer didn't do as well I think because it was almost purely text, without those nice n' pretty coloured pics we all love so well.
And of course, no Grehawk spells, monsters, npc stats, etc.
Less on the history then, and more on the current setting.
I'm not even sure what it is about this setting, it just gets in your blood or something...
I never played any edition prior to 3rd. The massive amount of stuff on the shelves completely turned me off to the game. So I have no knowledge of the material prior to 3rd edition, save what I read here on the boards (and we all know how impartial that is :P ).
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer was one of the first books I purchased, right after the 3 core books. I read the entire thing in one day and positively loved it. I don't know about what came before, and the truth is, I don't care. I don't care if it still follows the original vision (whatever that may have been), which writer was a hack, or the assorted conspiracy theories about the setting being buried.
All I know is that LGG is one of my favorite books and I'd dearly love to see a new version released in the near future.
So in a possibly vain attempt to get this thread back on track, and willing exposing myself to any flames that come my way for my statements, I humbly cast my vote for the Greyhawk Campaign Setting
.I can't but wonder in the years that WotC have taken over all of TSR's asset (about 10 years already?), why Gygax was never asked to write new products for Greyhawk? I also noticed he never ranted that he never get to revisit Greyhawk, as he is more interested in promoting this Lejendary Adventures line.
The only thing he contributed for this edition of D&D/Greyhawk was the Maure Castle adventure he co-wrote with Kuntz for Dungeon magazine.
Hmm.
The greatest motivator in America is money.
I can't but wonder in the years that WotC have taken over all of TSR's asset (about 10 years already?), why Gygax was never asked to write new products for Greyhawk? I also noticed he never ranted that he never get to revisit Greyhawk, as he is more interested in promoting this Lejendary Adventures line.
The only thing he contributed for this edition of D&D/Greyhawk was the Maure Castle adventure he co-wrote with Kuntz for Dungeon magazine.
Hmm.
They did ask him. He wanted way too much money guaranteed, which WotC wasn't going to pay. So he wound up with a column in Dragon for a time and that was that.
And yes, he is more interested in Lejendary Adventures. That is something he directly makes money from, even if he doesn't do the writing for it.
They did ask him. He wanted way too much money guaranteed, which WotC wasn't going to pay. So he wound up with a column in Dragon for a time and that was that.
And yes, he is more interested in Lejendary Adventures. That is something he directly makes money from, even if he doesn't do the writing for it.
Ah. Always think like a suit. My kind of guy (not god nor reverent "grandfather of all RPGs" figure).
Best Regards,
Mandras
If WotC would release new Greyhawk Campaign setting (as a hardcover book similar to the one they did for Forgotten Realms, updated to 3,5 edition) I would certainly buy it.
Best Regards,
Mandras
Then buy Return to Castle Greyhawk when it's on sale. Show that there is strength in number.
I WANT 3.5 Greyhawk books (campaign-specific, not "generic").
Then some qaulifiers and quibbles:
I would much rather see the original Greyhawk setting (with a bit of editing and expansion) than any kind of "update". I think a hardcover reprint of the old staple-bound books from the World of Greyhawk set would satisfy me, and I think it could be reworked to better appeal to a modern audience without losing my interest.
But I did not like the Gazetter they did back in 2000 that moved the Greyhawk timeline ahead several decades. It clashed too much with what was happening in that period in the Greyhawk campaign I was in.
Also, I'm not terribly optimistic about this petition getting results. Don't get me wrong; I'd love it if WotC put out a Greyhawk hardcover. But my understanding is that the problem with the Greyhawk setting from WotC's perspective has to do with who owns what rights to it, and specificly that it was never wholly owned by TSR much less WotC.
They would rather support settings that they actually own, and on that point (at least from a business perspecive) I can hardly fault them. Even if it means they give Greyhawk the shaft.
Also, I'm not terribly optimistic about this petition getting results. Don't get me wrong; I'd love it if WotC put out a Greyhawk hardcover. But my understanding is that the problem with the Greyhawk setting from WotC's perspective has to do with who owns what rights to it, and specificly that it was never wholly owned by TSR much less WotC.
They would rather support settings that they actually own, and on that point (at least from a business perspecive) I can hardly fault them. Even if it means they give Greyhawk the shaft.
For WotC to have such concern, begs a question: Who brought up their claim of ownership to Greyhawk?
So far, no one from the Gygax camp is making such public allegation and threaten to sue WotC. If they were, they would have tried to get the court to issue an injunction order to stop the publication of Expedition to Castle Greyhawk.
Arneson is more concern about the Blackmoor trademark (in name only) but had to negotiate with WotC for the use.
First off, add my name to the petition.
Then some qaulifiers and quibbles:
I would much rather see the original Greyhawk setting (with a bit of editing and expansion) than any kind of "update". I think a hardcover reprint of the old staple-bound books from the World of Greyhawk set would satisfy me, and I think it could be reworked to better appeal to a modern audience without losing my interest.
But I did not like the Gazetter they did back in 2000 that moved the Greyhawk timeline ahead several decades. It clashed too much with what was happening in that period in the Greyhawk campaign I was in.
I expect I will buy Return to Castle Greyhawk but in truth, there is so much info on Greyhawk and the surrounding lands, it's the region I'm least concerned about! I'd much rather see other areas get a update with general information like the Marklands and Iuz the Evil supplements. There's no real burning need to advance the timeline per se but it is a good way for the writers to put in fresh material I guess.
If the timeline is advanced, contradicting home campaigns is inevitable. How many people have rescued Thrommel from ToEE? You just have to work around that. More frustrating is when a Greyhawk setting is used that contradicts canon - like the Saltmarsh article in DMG2. A good write up for a generic town that rides roughshod over what Saltmarsh used to be like and took no inspiration from the LG version which had taken great pains to be faithful to the original modules. I'd be inclined to use the DMG2 information for a nearby town like Burle or Seaton instead but I digress.
I've been preparing my own gazeteer for years now but it's really hard work! I've spent the last 11 months just on Keoland and its going to be over 200 pages. I've used copyrighted material from old mods and material from LG and Canonfire to pad out the regions. As such, I could never release copies without leaving myself wide open. But what it has shown is that there is a massive wealth of Greyhawk information out there with no real method of disseminatiing it to the people who want it.
I'm toying with the idea of putting my versions of the settlement stat blocks up somewhere if anybody thinks that might be useful and wouldn't get me in trouble. I don't see why we can't all put in some imput from home campaigns to pad out settlements and npcs where there is almost no official information. We'll die waiting for WotC to do it even if they do return and do a new gazeteer!
At least give this it a shot. See how it goes, if the product sells poorly put an end to Greyhawk once and for all! If it sells well, then will you please support its fans?
[devil's advocate]
Didn't they already do this with the LG Gazetteer. A comprehensive guide to all the lands and peoples with full histories.
And if they do release the HC and it sells like crap and they take a financial hit do you really think the fans will keep silent? Or will similar petitions spring up for "another Greyhawk book" in the following years.
[/devil's advocate]
I'd like to see a Greyhawk Player's Guide, a nice high quality book, but I really doubt it.
As mentioned on the first page a fan made one should be sufficient.
Oh, I almost forgot. If you want to prove WotC that Greyhawk is a viable brand, spread the word to buy Return to Castle Greyhawk coming out this year. If you can have that product sold out in the first month of its release, they'll probably change their mind.
The greatest motivator in America is money.
Because, of course, it worked so well with Ravenloft after EtCR was released last fall. The sheer attention the setting has received since has been staggering!
(Two minies -both altered beyond recognition-, three pages in Dragon and a couple line reference in the Adventure Hook subpage).
And if EtCR was any indication of the adherence to the past I shudder about what's going to happen to Castle Greyhawk.
Because, of course, it worked so well with Ravenloft after EtCR was released last fall. The sheer attention the setting has received since has been staggering!
(Two minies -both altered beyond recognition-, three pages in Dragon and a couple line reference in the Adventure Hook subpage).
And if EtCR was any indication of the adherence to the past I shudder about what's going to happen to Castle Greyhawk.
Gee, I didn't know that Ravenloft is part of or have any relevance to Greyhawk.
After Expedition to Castle Ravenloft was announced there was a flurry of activity across the 'Loft websites and MBs. Everyone was convinced that if the book sold well it would prove the setting was still viable and WotC would release more Ravenloft-specific products.
Now there's a similar feel about Greyhawk ruins. That if enough people buy it it'll be seen as a reason to publish a new Player's Guide to Greyhawk.
But instead they're responding to requests for more mega-adventures and updates of classic modules. If they sell well they'll keep reviving old adventures with a new spin. They're doing Undermountain and Demonweb so expect Slavers or Keep on the Borderlands.
This is likely a good thing as, given what they did to Ravenloft and Strahd, we could look forward to a warlock Mordenkainen or a Zagyg as a lich in the deepest reaches of Greyhawk.
But I did not like the Gazetter they did back in 2000 that moved the Greyhawk timeline ahead several decades. It clashed too much with what was happening in that period in the Greyhawk campaign I was in.
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer moved the timeline ahead a whole 2 years, not decades. Did you miss the products from the 10 years prior to that that did advance the timeline?
And by the way, only less than 2 decades have passed in published material. The folio and 1983 box set are set in the early to mid 570s CY, the LGG is set in 591CY. That's not "several decades" by any stretch.
But my understanding is that the problem with the Greyhawk setting from WotC's perspective has to do with who owns what rights to it, and specificly that it was never wholly owned by TSR much less WotC.
They would rather support settings that they actually own, and on that point (at least from a business perspecive) I can hardly fault them. Even if it means they give Greyhawk the shaft.
To put it quite simply and bluntly, your understanding is completely wrong.
WotC owns greyhawk, completely and without dispute. Gygax and Kuntz retain the right to use a handful of character names , specifically the ones derived from their own via anagrams.
My favorite line of all time :D .
Zagyg is awesome and I can't wait for the next book in the series! And I'm about to cream over Rob's new module. It's nice to see that in some form the true Gh survives.
The true greyhawk, huh?
Hollow words when one considers they're coming from someone who's signature demonstrates they have no idea that Castles & Crusades is d20.
Very good Rob!
I will also say I could live with a GH that had the Wars in it. Not that I would like it but it would be acceptable to see GH in print.
oh for god's sake man, at least have some dignity and TRY and hide being a fanboy.
Didn't you just say that the only true greyhawk is the stuff TLG is putting out, despite the fact that gygax isn't even writing the material and rob has left the project? That's right people, gygax himself has stated that he is not writing the material, just a "style guide" for the authors to follow. Somehow that's "truer" than the people at paizo/wotc who actually care about the setting writing new material themselves.
Listen folks, the wars are bad, sargent sucks, mona is the antichrist, and despite the fact that castles & crusades is a rules light modification of 3rd edition, released under WotC's Open Gaming License, wotc and 3r edition are crap and troll lord is the only thing that can save the legacy of the game.
oh, wait...
Unless Rob comes along and says otherwise, then we backpedal.
Please, take this tripe back to the Dragonsfoot & Pied Piper gygaxhawk forums where it belongs.
my friends would buy a greyhawk hardcover setting book for nostalgic reasons as well.
The Living Gazeteer didn't do as well I think because it was almost purely text, without those nice n' pretty coloured pics we all love so well.
And of course, no Grehawk spells, monsters, npc stats, etc.
Less on the history then, and more on the current setting.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see what is nostalgic about the product you're describing.
To me, and others, I'm sure, hardcovers and "nice pretty color pictures" do nothing for a product. I'd rather have black and white line art soft covers any day in fact.
As Greyhawk is the core setting for the D&D game in its current incarnation, the setting sourcebook does not need spells, monsters, magic items, feats, etc. These are found in the D&D rulebooks. The reason FR and Eberron have these things in the setting sourcebooks is that they do things that are not covered by the rules as they are published.
Less on the history? In a setting like Greyhawk, where military and political upheaval are the primary forces shaping the setting, an understanding of how and why things happened is integral to an understanding of what is going on now and why. Further, the histories and descriptions in the LGG provide countless plot hooks and ideas for a DM to expand upon in making a campaign.
I've often said that the best hope for Greyhawk material lies in the small press and fan efforts.
RJK's apparent (to me at least, I may have read too much into things) reluctance to ride along as TLG and Gygax drift away from real loyalty to both the "AD&D 1st Edition" and Original Greyhawk campaign spirit was very encouraging for me. I'd rather buy "generic" material that is true to the spirit of the setting and the old school system any day. Gygax and TLG have decided to re-envision the classic Greyhawk dungeon as something more modern. Mona, Jacobs and co have decided to shoehorn anything and everything into Greyhawk to suit the needs of their adventure paths and magazines. RJK, Len Lakofka, and the many fans at places like Dragonsfoot and Canonfire have chosen fan material or a smaller niche in the market place where the essence of the setting can be maintained, albeit with the proper nouns tweaked or omitted in places. RJK and Lakofka stick to an old school vision of the setting that doesn't always jive with what those of us using the more modern visions of Greyhawk, but IMO that doesn't make either of the visions useless to the other. Maure Castle's rebirth in Dungeon magazine is a perfect example of how an old school vision can in fact work perfectly well with the new school vision.
Every Greyhawk fan community has its strengths and weaknesses. Canonfire has huge amounts of creative material and discussions by members, but at the same time, perhaps an over abundance of blind loyalty to whatever new material Paizo and WotC put out, as well as some zealous and "colorful" characters, like myself, to be fair, that can at times taint the site's reputation among the rest of the fandom. Dragonsfoot has excellent participation by the old pros; Gygax, Kuntz, Lakofka and others that are less related to Greyhawk, and a more purist, nostalgic respect for the original setting, countered by a somewhat unwelcoming attitude to those who enjoy material for later editions of the game and setting, and in a few cases, outright contempt and hostility toward those who question those attitudes.
Castles & Crusades is a fairly nice twist on the D20 rule set, efficiently scaling that monster down to a manageable and playable size. I don't understand the need for the addition of the "siege mechanic" (which is a sort of second universal mechanic in the game, after the "d20+mods=target difficulty", and has nothing to do with strongholds and mass combat) to add complexity to the game once the D20 system's complexity has been removed, but to many, that mechanic is what draws them to C&C, so YMMV. What I don't appreciate about C&C is really not a facet of the game at all, but an attitude in its publisher and fans. C&C may well capture what a segment of fans see as the spirit of old school roleplaying, but it's not AD&D 1st edition by any stretch. It may do very well for TLG in terms of sales, but it's not even going to register on Hasbro/WotC's financial radar. Misrepresentation and elitism do form a long term word of mouth publicity campaign.
It'd be a shame for me to have to lock this thread, but if the hate doesn't stop, that's what I'll be forced to do.
WotC owns greyhawk, completely and without dispute. Gygax and Kuntz retain the right to use a handful of character names , specifically the ones derived from their own via anagrams.
Unfortunately, Jim Ward does not own the right to "Drawmij," which brought an end to Fast Forward Games.
Im tired of converting FR stuff for my GH campaign
It's time to give TWoG Setting some time in the sun, and if WotC aren't willing/able, perhaps they could "subcontract" the effort out to a company that will
It's time to give TWoG Setting some time in the sun, and if WotC aren't willing/able, perhaps they could "subcontract" the effort out to a company that will
Perhaps Gary Gygax would, but then I don't see him jumping hoops to get it, even with his current health.
I would dearly love to see new GH material
Im tired of converting FR stuff for my GH campaign
It's time to give TWoG Setting some time in the sun, and if WotC aren't willing/able, perhaps they could "subcontract" the effort out to a company that will
It's a neat idea but there's too many problems for it to fly.
Firstly, it's expensive and WotC is asking quite a bit for their licenses. White Wolf decided they couldn't make enough money with licensed settings and returned the two they borrowed from WotC. So if one of the bigger publishers doesn't think its profitable enough I can't imagine smaller companies being able to afford it.
Secondly, there's Living Greyhawk. I doubt the RPGA would appreciate this other company telling them what's happening in the world and ditto all the local authors. And I doubt a company would appreciate such a large number of players who'd be just as likely to ignore their products as use them.
The side option is to let the local Triads and groups write their own sub-sections of the Core book and work with any new publisher, but that's be some tricky legal work and alienate those Greyhawk fans who hate LG.
That leads to the big divisions in the Greyhawk fanbase. No matter what the book would annoy someone. If it has alot on the fallout of Greyhawk wars then the old fans who like the original GH would protest. If it ignored the Wars then the people who liked it get ******.
Lastly, 3E still says that Greyhawk is the default setting. This loosely means all the core classes, races and gods have a place there. If they license it away then it's essentially telling people the Core default world belongs to another company, which might confuse new players into thinking they need to buy this other company's books.
If they reprint the Core three books and remove the Greyhawk (mostly some of the names, pic of the coin and deities) and possibly add Eberron or the Realms to the PHB then it might be a possibility. But it doesn't look like we should expect a reprint before '08.
Secondly, there's Living Greyhawk. I doubt the RPGA would appreciate this other company telling them what's happening in the world and ditto all the local authors. And I doubt a company would appreciate such a large number of players who'd be just as likely to ignore their products as use them.
The side option is to let the local Triads and groups write their own sub-sections of the Core book and work with any new publisher, but that's be some tricky legal work and alienate those Greyhawk fans who hate LG.
Fortunately, I'm not into Living Campaigns and RPGA. I would have bought that hefty gazetteer sourcebook if it didn't have "Living" in the title.
The LG "content" of the book is a 2 page spread on how to create a character for the LG campaign. (Back in 2000, so it is hopelessly outdated now as well.)
The rest is pure sourcebook, with all the national information from FtA upgraded and expanded. And it is virtually edition free, with nothing that require 3E/3.5 to use.
The D&D Gazetteer is a cut down version of the LGG.
Fortunately, I'm not into Living Campaigns and RPGA. I would have bought that hefty gazetteer sourcebook if it didn't have "Living" in the title.
I think you just made my point for me.
If they write the book to take advantage of the largest gaming organization in the world and spin-off of the largest shared campaign ever then you and fans like you will simply snub the book and continue clamoring for a 'real' sourcebook.
If they ignore it to please the other sect of fans then everyone who plays LG will shrug and read their free local guides as the non-WotC book is a closed source, unusable, and has no relation to their game.
Yup. Nothing in there is "Fan" material by the triads. Unless you consider Gary Holian, Erik Mona, SKR, and Fred Weining to be fan authors....
The D&D Gazetteer is a cut down version of the LGG.
Unfortunately, the LGG -- much like the Races of Faerun -- have gone OOP.
Oh, I just read a post from an ENWorld poster as to why WotC shouldn't support Greyhawk. He believe that support through Dragon and Dungeon magazine is more than enough.
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3408016&postcount=48
Feel free to respond (though you must register in order to post).
I just read a post from an ENWorld poster as to why WotC shouldn't support Greyhawk. He believe that support through Dragon and Dungeon magazine is more than enough.
Despite the fact that Erik Mona, who is Editor in Chief of those magazines, a former WotC employee, and the founding organizer of the Living Greyhawk Campaign, completely disagreed with that idiot in the very same thread?
Feel free to respond (though you must register in order to post).
Why the hordes of fools there who know little to nothing about Greyhawk but fancy themselves industry insiders deserve replying too is beyhond me.
So I don't seem to be riding the fence on the issue. Would I be upset if WotC, or even Paizo, published a new GH line? Of course not? Would I buy it? Probably not, unless a new stable of designers whose prior work hasn't turned me off to their ideas was brought on board. Do I think these petition threads are going to accomplish anything? Not really, aside from letting people vent.
ENWorld is not, and never has been, overly friendly to Greyhawk. Why? Two reasons:
Lack of GH crunch books: There's just not a lot of mechanics in the LGG to spend 100+ page threads arguing over.
It's not OGC: A good percentage of people there wont bother with anything that isn't OGC, that's just how it is.
To a lesser degree, there's the fact that aside from Erik Mona, few to none of the "cool people" who post there are big greyhawk fans. Even Gygax doesn't champion the setting in his postings there. If you doubt the power of popular poster endorsement and fanboy loyalty on that forum, you have much to learn.
Despite the fact that Erik Mona, who is Editor in Chief of those magazines, a former WotC employee, and the founding organizer of the Living Greyhawk Campaign, completely disagreed with that idiot in the very same thread?
Yeah. And plus a few Greyhawk fans there offering their voices (or words, for that matter).
ENWorld is not, and never has been, overly friendly to Greyhawk.
Well, to be fair, they're not OVERLY friendly to any of TSR/WotC's published setting, including the new Eberron.
Why? Two reasons:
Lack of GH crunch books: There's just not a lot of mechanics in the LGG to spend 100+ page threads arguing over.
It's not OGC: A good percentage of people there wont bother with anything that isn't OGC, that's just how it is.
To a lesser degree, there's the fact that aside from Erik Mona, few to none of the "cool people" who post there are big greyhawk fans.
Aww, the "not-so-cool people" are also on Greyhawk side, too.
Even Gygax doesn't champion the setting in his postings there.
Yeah, makes you wonder. Do we revive Gygax's version, Sargent's version (when we find him), or champion Mona's version (despite past criticisms)?
Yeah, makes you wonder. Do we revive Gygax's version, Sargent's version (when we find him), or champion Mona's version (despite past criticisms)?
I'm just interested in details of locations, npcs, and adventure ideas. It seems to me that the political situation in ANY of the 'official' versions will be temporary and affected by the events of ANY home campaign. Every DM will have to tweak the published stuff - that's our job! I can understand that people want THEIR version but realistically no two people are going share the same vision.
For example, personally I want Prince Zeech to retain some clerical levels as he had in 1e, 2e, and 3e rather than the version in Dungeon, which was a fallen paladin. It won't take much effort to do that. My Mordenkainen is only 19th level wizard, 5th Level Archmage based on the fact that the 'official' stats in 581 CY had him at 20th level. I can live with downgrading the Epic version at 28th? level. Similarly, Epic Eclavdra needs a temporary downgrade.
I say bring it on - if it needs tweaking, I'll do it myself!
I'm just interested in details of locations, npcs, and adventure ideas. It seems to me that the political situation in ANY of the 'official' versions will be temporary and affected by the events of ANY home campaign. Every DM will have to tweak the published stuff - that's our job! I can understand that people want THEIR version but realistically no two people are going share the same vision.
And yet we have three factions. :D
Honestly, can we all get along?
One more vote for Greyhawk!
But which one?!?!!!!
BAH-HAHAHAHA!!! :evillaugh
Which one? Doesn't matter. Just as long as its Greyhawk.
*Slap a Greyhawk label on The Book of Erotic Fantasy Roleplaying Game.*
Good enough?
Greyhawk F.A.T.A.L, anyone?
When I first started playing D&D years ago, you had the choice between the fairly well developed Greyhawk and the fledgling Known World/Mystara. A few years later, the Forgotten Realms was introduced and, though I bought those products, they never quite sat right with me. It always seemed to me that where Greyhawk focused on the PCs, the Forgotten Realms was always overshadowed by a small number of iconic characters. Dragonlance, as well loved as it was in its day, suffered, to a lesser degree, from the same problem, except in this case, it was the gods that overshadowed the PCs. Ravenloft, SpellJammer, Dark Sun, Planescape, Hollow World... they were too genre specific to hold my interest for more than the few months after release. Only Greyhawk still keeps my interest (although Eberron has enough variety to be worth my playing time on occasion).
In recent months, I've started in with a new gaming community, a community that is made up of two groups: those who were around for the 1983 Greyhawk box set, and those for whom Greyhawk is little more than a legend. One of my players, who had been anti-Greyhawk due to the lack of available published materials, inspired me to trade in various books and CDs for copies of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer for my players. Will that one book be enough to maintain their interest? Only if I'm able to supplement it with other material, material that, for the time being, exists only in TSR products from 10+ years ago and the odd article from Dragon or Dungeon.
So again, please, WotC, begin directly supporting Greyhawk again.
So again, please, WotC, begin directly supporting Greyhawk again.
Personally, I'm hoping the partnership of Necromancer Games and Paizo would be proof that they could use the Greyhawk license.
It's a longshot but ... it has to start somewhere. (Gave up on Gygax a looong time ago.)