Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Mar 15, 2006 18:07:11	Hey, Though I love Planescape dearly, I don't own many of the old books, and I've never read Faction War. I was looking over at the PS3E project on Planewalker.com and read up some on the events of the Faction War, and I'm kind of confused. Apparently Factol Darkwood, in Faction War, basically starts a civil war in Sigil, betrays and murders people, and manipulates everybody horribly. Uhm... At what point is that part about him being Chaotic Good in the original boxed campaign setting not true? I mean, his actions in Faction War hardly seem "Good" by any stretch. What's up with that? -E
#2 ripvanwormer Mar 15, 2006 18:23:30	He believes he's doing what he's doing for the greater good. The Lady of Pain, to him, is basically a giant he has to slay to protect the villagers, just like he did back on the Prime. He does engage in some very morally questionable activities in the process, so his alignment does change to chaotic neutral and Heimdall abandons him. After he starts the war and sells Alisohn Nilesia into slavery, he loses his priestly powers. He was definitely good before, but isn't by the beginning of the adventure. I think his heart is still in the right place - the only problem is, he's a Heartless.
#3 thanael Mar 16, 2006 8:54:29	Rip do you have link for your thread featuring Darkwood's story and your stats forhim? I could have sworn i had it subscribed but can't find it now...
#4 zombiegleemax Mar 16, 2006 9:52:32	He believes he's doing what he's doing for the greater good. The Lady of Pain, to him, is basically a giant he has to slay to protect the villagers, just like he did back on the Prime. He does engage in some very morally questionable activities in the process, so his alignment does change to chaotic neutral and Heimdall abandons him. After he starts the war and sells Alisohn Nilesia into slavery, he loses his priestly powers. He was definitely good before, but isn't by the beginning of the adventure. I think his heart is still in the right place - the only problem is, he's a Heartless. I've always considered Daakwood evil in Faction War, not neutral...selling his own wife (for interest, but his wife nonetheless)? Freeing killers fron the Prison in hope they put some high-up in the dead book? this sounds definitively evil to me.. and i don't think Darkwood saw The Lady as a threat the Sigilian needed to br freed of...he simply craved power. Even as Gifad, he was more that willing to destroy the life force in the Labyrinthine Stone (too bad for him.. :D ) Ironically, i think that the only time Darkwood/Gifad's motivations were justified (or at least comprensible), was when he was cast back in time and he returned to Sigil as a mage to vindicate himself, for in that time he perceived himself as the victim of an abuse... just my two cents
#5 ripvanwormer Mar 16, 2006 12:03:41	I've always considered Daakwood evil in Faction War, not neutral...selling his own wife (for interest, but his wife nonetheless)? Freeing killers fron the Prison in hope they put some high-up in the dead book? this sounds definitively evil to me.. and i don't think Darkwood saw The Lady as a threat the Sigilian needed to br freed of...he simply craved power. Alisohn Nilesia was an evil psychopath who was sentencing hundreds of people to death every day for petty, trivial crimes. Getting rid of her was an unquestionably good thing. As for the means he used to do it - fiendish slavery - remember that he didn't subject her to anything he didn't experience himself. He was a slave to the fiends for ten long years. I assume he sold her to the very same fiend, his old friend Amaggel (and this was semicanonized in a recent Dragon issue). He freed some killers, yes, but he freed an awful lot of innocents, too. His biography - and his alignment - makes it clear that the pattern of his life was defeating monsters and taking his rightful reward for doing so. He's the classic munchkin D&D hero, killing evil things and taking their stuff. It was obvious to Rowan that some bad things were going on in Sigil. The Lady of Pain was infecting his allies, the Free League, with a deadly plague simply to keep them from becoming too powerful. The Mercykillers were killing people for no good reason. And rumors said that even lawful good Erin Montgomery Darkflame had some kind of demented master plan to convert everyone into pure energy (the Factol's Manifesto hints at this, but unfortunately it's never followed up on). The kriegstanz between the factions were causing endless strife and misery. It was time for someone to put a stop to all that, and yes - it was completely fair in his mind to take Sigil as his rightful reward. He isn't running a charity, after all, and who was better qualified to run the city in a tough but fair way? The reason why he became neutral was that his means were extremely questionable and he had begun to see his reward as something just as important as the service he provided. So yes - he began to feel greedy for Sigil. He still wanted to do good, but it was mixed with selfishness. The adventure said he became chaotic neutral, not evil. The above explanation is how I justify it.
#6 ripvanwormer Mar 16, 2006 12:10:22	Rip do you have link for your thread featuring Darkwood's story and your stats forhim? I could have sworn i had it subscribed but can't find it now... http://geocities.com/ripvanwormer/darkwood.html <---Right here
#7 ripvanwormer Mar 16, 2006 12:22:56	Let me explain my position re: the freed criminals a little more. Pre-Faction War Sigil was an extremely dangerous place for the common people. There were Hardheads scragging Indeps for no reason, Indeps afflicted with a plague for no reason, people getting Mazed just for who they choose to worship, Mercykillers scragging everyone for no reason, Skall plotting to turn everyone into zombies, the drastic plans of Factol Erin. Freeing the prisoners didn't necessarily make things so much more dangerous for ordinary folk - the factions had made things dangerous enough. What's more, Darkwood believed people ought to take care of themselves - form citizen militias, neighborhood watch programs, hire parties of adventurers to defend them if need be. What he had done was create a situation that the other factols hadn't planned for. Some of the brilliant sociopaths in the City Prison - Sigil's equivalents of Batman villains or Hannibal Lecter or Lestat or Saruman, some of them people who the Mercykillers could cage, but had no idea how to kill - created a wild card that the high-ups hadn't planned on. These people weren't, mostly, nearly as angry at lower-caste people than they were at the high-ups. That evened the playing field a little, pushing them off their guard and making them more like lesser folks in their vulnerability. Darkwood knew that if they were smart and capable they could still avoid being assassinated, but he really didn't think many of the other factols were smart or capable. Nilesia he respected, Montgomery he respected, but not a lot of others. As for my interpretation of Darkwood himself, he's Batman. Not Adam West, but Frank Miller's version in The Dark Knight Returns. A relentless old guy who'll stop at nothing to achieve his own version of justice, with contempt for just about everyone else. Batman crossed with Ayn Rand, I guess.
#8 eldersphinx Mar 16, 2006 18:32:45	Let me explain my position re: the freed criminals a little more. Pre-Faction War Sigil was an extremely dangerous place for the common people. There were Hardheads scragging Indeps for no reason, Indeps afflicted with a plague for no reason, people getting Mazed just for who they choose to worship, Mercykillers scragging everyone for no reason, Skall plotting to turn everyone into zombies, the drastic plans of Factol Erin. As a side note... what drastic plans? IIRC, the boxed set and Factol's Manifesto basically had Erin mostly as an established defender of the status quo, with no real radicalism or hidden motives. If you've got anything different, tho, please share - could be interesting.
#9 ripvanwormer Mar 16, 2006 19:15:38	As a side note... what drastic plans? IIRC, the boxed set and Factol's Manifesto basically had Erin mostly as an established defender of the status quo, with no real radicalism or hidden motives. If you've got anything different, tho, please share - could be interesting. See The Factol's Manifesto, 141. "Factol Montgomery's plans for Sigil involve turning the Cage into a threshold of cerebral transcendence. She believes that the Sensates - and indeed, all beings in Sigil - can free themselves of their physical bodies and explore the multiverse without restraint, free to be at one with thought itself... 'Course, the Sensates don't plan to tell anyone what they're up to..." It's not hard to imagine what Darkwood might think of a plan to liberate him of his body without asking his permission. Erin might have well-meaning, utopian ideals, but they basically involve killing everyone in Sigil, at least in the medical sense. Are her plans or goals so different from Skall's? Note that after Rathvold Rathson completed the Sensate chapter of The Factol's Manifesto, a great deal of it was excised and Rathfold turned up dead.
#10 zombiegleemax Mar 17, 2006 9:36:17	Alisohn Nilesia was an evil psychopath who was sentencing hundreds of people to death every day for petty, trivial crimes. Getting rid of her was an unquestionably good thing. As for the means he used to do it - fiendish slavery - remember that he didn't subject her to anything he didn't experience himself. He was a slave to the fiends for ten long years. I assume he sold her to the very same fiend, his old friend Amaggel (and this was semicanonized in a recent Dragon issue). He freed some killers, yes, but he freed an awful lot of innocents, too. His biography - and his alignment - makes it clear that the pattern of his life was defeating monsters and taking his rightful reward for doing so. He's the classic munchkin D&D hero, killing evil things and taking their stuff. It was obvious to Rowan that some bad things were going on in Sigil. The Lady of Pain was infecting his allies, the Free League, with a deadly plague simply to keep them from becoming too powerful. The Mercykillers were killing people for no good reason. And rumors said that even lawful good Erin Montgomery Darkflame had some kind of demented master plan to convert everyone into pure energy (the Factol's Manifesto hints at this, but unfortunately it's never followed up on). The kriegstanz between the factions were causing endless strife and misery. It was time for someone to put a stop to all that, and yes - it was completely fair in his mind to take Sigil as his rightful reward. He isn't running a charity, after all, and who was better qualified to run the city in a tough but fair way? QUOTE] Of course getting riddance of Nilesia was a benefit in the greater scheme of things..but Darkwood didin't do that in name of justice, but only to farther his plane....ande the same is true for freeing the innocants from the Prison As for Drakwood being the tipical D&D munchkin Hero when he was back on the Prime, i agree...and this explains why he never take a real grasp with the life on the Planes ..Darkwood way of thinking was equal to that of a small, selfish Clueless all his life..i don't quite find nothing redeeming or even admirable in the "Duke" (as you may find in other villains or antiheroes in Planscape, such as Shememska..).. as for the bad things done by the faction, i think thy were consequence or every faction's belief made manifest..random destruction from the doomguard, forced order from Hatmonium, ecc. (even if i confess i don't undestand why the Lady bothered to reduce the ranks of Free League..)
#11 ripvanwormer Mar 17, 2006 9:49:38	but Darkwood didin't do that in name of justice, but only to farther his plane....ande the same is true for freeing the innocants from the Prison It's a matter of interpretation, I guess. I looked at the chaotic good alignment and assume he must have some good intentions. If you'd rather he was just a chaotic evil monster, more power to you, but I prefer him more nuanced.
#12 zombiegleemax Mar 17, 2006 10:01:46	It's a matter of interpretation, I guess. I looked at the chaotic good alignment and assume he must have some good intentions. If you'd rather he was just a chaotic evil monster, more power to you, but I prefer him more nuanced. Of course it's a matter of interpretation...i don't see him as good from the moment he set foot in Sigil and take the reins of the Fated...from the perspective of his CG alignment (and i admit i've never tried to explain his action form that point of view) your explanation works quite well... and no, i don't like to see him a chaotic evil monster, but rather as a selfish, proud, arrogant (but ultimately pathetic) moron...and personaliy i'm not sure is easily reconducible to a precise alignment But perhaps, as always, the best explanation is that certain things are supposed to happen..Darkwood had to be mazed and had to become Gifad and had to be trapped in the Stone..and so his course of action was Fated ( :D ) whatever alignment he was supposed to be cheers
#13 thanael Mar 17, 2006 10:16:02	http://geocities.com/ripvanwormer/darkwood.html <---Right here Thanks Rip! I could have sworn it was in a thread here somewhere. With his stats you mention you'd have liked to give him 2 more levels in Rgr but lacking ELH didn't. So here's a short summary of the changes if he had been Rgr19 before multiclassing into Divine Agent: +1 attribute increase, +10 skillpoints (18 in 3.5 ), +1 BAB overall, +1 on all saves, cast spells as 20th level ranger, 1 epic feat (Epic Will? Epic Reputation? Epic Leadership? or perhaps Epic Prowess?) Any chance for a 3.5 update of his stats? He'd get a whole lot of more skill poinst, better Ref save, more feats, some nice class features. What combat style would he choose? Two Weapon fighting? (It's what 1E/2E Rangers did get.) Does he have an animal companion? And why does he have Elves as a favoured enemy? What 5th favoured enemy would you give him for the "full buff" CL 26 version? (Perhaps the Factions?) What other epic feat? (Bane of Enemies? Perfect Health?)
#14 ripvanwormer Mar 17, 2006 10:31:01	With his stats you mention you'd have liked to give him 2 more levels in Rgr but lacking ELH didn't. I actually have it now, I just haven't felt any great need to revisit his stats since I got it. But thanks. (Epic Reputation? Epic Leadership? or perhaps Epic Prowess?) Epic leadership sounds better for a factol, I think. What combat style would he choose? Two Weapon fighting? (It's what 1E/2E Rangers did get.) He only fought with a single weapon in 2e (the bastard sword +2 giant slayer, used two-handed), though, even though by rights he could have used two. I suppose he should be fully munched, though, given his nature. Does he have an animal companion? I doubt it, although a ratatosk might make an interesting one. And why does he have Elves as a favoured enemy? The assumption that I made in writing his bio was that he plowed his way through every one of the classic 1e mega-adventures, or most of them anyway. He reminded me a bit of the Nodwick characters, who showed up in Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, and even Dragonlance just so they could play every module. So the the elf-enemy is for fighting drow. What 5th favoured enemy would you give him for the "full buff" CL 26 version? Dragons, I think. That'd complete the array of classic bad-ass monsters, though it'd be amusing to make it something like brachyuruses. What other epic feat? (Bane of Enemies? Perfect Health?) Those'd both be good. I'll think about it.
#15 thanael Mar 17, 2006 10:44:22	BTW who's that albino bald guy, P.K.? And who's Alisohn Nihlesa?
#16 ripvanwormer Mar 17, 2006 10:51:09	BTW who's that albino bald guy, P.K.? An original character, named after the author of Through A Scanner Darkly. And who's Alisohn Nihlesa? Mercykiller factol, with a mispelled name.
#17 ripvanwormer Mar 17, 2006 10:57:50	er, but rather as a selfish, proud, arrogant (but ultimately pathetic) moron... He has an extremely high intelligence and wisdom, and he did outsmart all the other factions in Sigil. He couldn't, in the end, outsmart the Lady of Pain; he was out of his depth there, but it was a good plan. He didn't fully understand the facts about why the Lady didn't kill the ancient wizard, but neither did Shekelor, Alluvius Ruskin or any of the other myriads of people who had been hunting for the Labyrinth Stone for the past ten millennia.
#18 zombiegleemax Mar 17, 2006 11:04:22	Dragons, I think. That'd complete the array of classic bad-ass monsters, though it'd be amusing to make it something like brachyuruses. Depending on the timing of his rise in levels, I would actually think that the previous suggestion of "Sigilian Factioneers" would make a LOT of sense, though the dragons thing works if he was still on the Prime when he leveled. Timing's important.
#19 ripvanwormer Mar 17, 2006 11:13:19	Depending on the timing of his rise in levels, I would actually think that the previous suggestion of "Sigilian Factioneers" would make a LOT of sense, though the dragons thing works if he was still on the Prime when he leveled. Timing's important. He was only in Sigil for a year or so. The vast majority of his levels, if not all of them, were gained elsewhere. Though, in 3e terms, he might well have gained a lot of story XP for becoming factol of the Fated, successfully starting the war, and so on, I'd add those levels to his other ones, rather than counting them among the ones he already has.
#20 thanael Mar 17, 2006 15:01:49	An original character, named after the author of Through A Scanner Darkly. Hah! Almost guessed it. That was the one person that came to mind when seeking for a Philip K. But as it wasn't a character I ruled him out. I wasn't aware that it was he who wrote Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?. Apparently I'll have out check out more of his works...