Thoughts?
We know that elemental clerics appeared in the early part of the Blue Age, but when did druids first make their appearance? Was it in the Blue Age like their clerical counterparts, or was it not until after the Rebirth and the start of the Green Age?
Thoughts?
After the Pact of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. I've always assumed that is during the Blue Age.
That would make sense. That begs the question of how they interacted or fit into rhulisti society if thats the case.
Stewards of tha land, guardian/protectors. At least, that's how I'd see it. As I play off the idea that the Rhulisti were actually a sci-fi genre race, I see the druids (and clerics) as quasi-religious leaders, promoting symbiosis with nature (hense the lifeshaping rather than mechanical technology being developed), and more than a little healthy respect for Athas. I could see them working closely with their respective Spirits of the Land (which would be more or less a young 'species') -- however as I tend to think that psionics didn't appear until after the Blue Age was ended (what I see as the "interregenum" between the Blue & Green Ages, where the various peoples had to relearn the little things like civilization,, and the like), I would say that the Rhulisti druids didn't actually have the capacity to transform into Spirits of the Land at that time.
I envision the druids as mediators, unassuming, peaceful people who are care for nature around them. The modern Athasian druid is, for my campaigns, on the far opposite end of that spectrum.
That begs the question of how they interacted or fit into rhulisti society if thats the case.
I always suppose that druids have just nothing to do with ANY society, rhulisti or not. The very idea of society (and/or economy) is completely alien to druids in my campaigns.
I always suppose that druids have just nothing to do with ANY society, rhulisti or not. The very idea of society (and/or economy) is completely alien to druids in my campaigns.
Druids could have served a very different role during the Blue Age than they do in the current one. I would imagine that they would have worked closely with the nature-masters and were the sworn enemies of nature-benders.
I would think that while there may have been a few druid-like entities around during the Blue Age, I think that the druidic order really bloomed with the Rebirth and the emergance of the pyreen- who could have been tampered with by the SotL (which would explain their natural druidic powers) as some kind of defense mechinism that kicked in due to the Brown Tide.
The SotL may have always been aroun in Athas, but the Brown Tide could have been such a catastrophic event that it jolted them into awareness that they wanted to take a hand in actively preserving Athas at that point.
Yeah- chew on that a bit.
That makes for an interesting topic of how druids would interact with life-shaped items.They are "animals" in their basic form after all.
I would almost think that their presence would have potentially been necessary. As caretakers, handlers, and the like. I could easily see the druids as being instrumental in the development of nature-master lifeshaping. And it may have required druidic assistance to create new creatures, rather than just manipulating existing creatures. As such, the nature-benders could have possibly been rejected by the druids for their more corrupt ways.
Druids could have served a very different role during the Blue Age than they do in the current one.
Of course, they could. But, once again, as for me, that role was (and is) any but social.
I would imagine that they would have worked closely with the nature-masters and were the sworn enemies of nature-benders.
It sounds more like if they were clerics. E. g., clerics of forest god, who work closely with foresters, and are the sworn enemies of loggers.
Of course, they could. But, once again, as for me, that role was (and is) any but social.
It sounds more like if they were clerics. E. g., clerics of forest god, who work closely with foresters, and are the sworn enemies of loggers.
Of course, I try not to be so limiting with their roles. I'd see that they could have filled a wide variety of roles, that Druids could have permiated throughout Rhulisti society, as I'm sure the Clerics did. Some could have been anti-social, others could have been a lot more involved with society. I don't think the Druids would have had any cause to reject or despise Rhulisti society, as the Rhulisti technology wa about symbiosis with the world, working together with the creatures -- improving them, adapting them, but at the same time adapting themselves. I don't see the Rhulisti really doing anything that would overtly cause Druids to despise them (nature-benders & brown tide aside).
...others could have been a lot more involved with society.
MY druids should say, "inveigled", not "involved".:D
To add a bit further to Kal's comments, maybe the Brown Tide was actually a corrupted SotL. The nature-masters may have tried to increase the life of the ocean by altering a SotL thru life-shaping.
I think it is a flawed assumption to think that druids do not interact with societies- druids are an intrinsic part of elven lives in most other gaming worlds.
I would think that while there may have been a few druid-like entities around during the Blue Age, I think that the druidic order really bloomed with the Rebirth and the emergance of the pyreen- who could have been tampered with by the SotL (which would explain their natural druidic powers) as some kind of defense mechinism that kicked in due to the Brown Tide.
The SotL may have always been aroun in Athas, but the Brown Tide could have been such a catastrophic event that it jolted them into awareness that they wanted to take a hand in actively preserving Athas at that point.
Yeah- chew on that a bit.
I envision this scenario because IMO the Druid class and perspective wasn't really needed until the the Rulisti started mucking about with nature. At that point, nature needed defenders/nurturers not another faction who used/bent nature to their will.
It is possible they were present before nature was messed with but they became important after the Brown Tide.
I envision this scenario because IMO the Druid class and perspective wasn't really needed until the the Rulisti started mucking about with nature. At that point, nature needed defenders/nurturers not another faction who used/bent nature to their will.
It is possible they were present before nature was messed with but they became important after the Brown Tide.
I dunno, I think it's a flawed assumption that the Druids were not needed prior to the Brown Tide. Honestly, I think the Druids' original purpose was to be caretakers and nurturers for nature, people wise in the ways of how to take care of the world, and instructed others in that fashion. Maybe defenders weren't needed at that time, but it's almost laughable to think that everyone just knew how to take care of the world in the Blue Age. It's far more reasonable that there were mentors and caretakers back then.
I strongly believe that the druid perspective, so to speak, had radically changed over the ages. They may have started as peaceful caretakers, but the worse and worse that Athas got, the more and more violent and dangerous the druids got -- fighting a losing battle to attempt to save nature from various destructive events. I view druids by modern times as downright hostile and violent. They hear from the Spirits of the Land about the atrocities that have plagued this world, and the druids have become affected by it all.
That's why I have my druids with things like the barbarian rage ability... because I see the druids as being rather violent in their protection of what little is left of nature in this world. Sure, there might be one or two idealists left, but mostly I see them as being quite determined in using action, rather than words, to get their points across. I generally have the druids as disliking (or even hating) arcane spellcasters -- even preservers (for every preserver is just a potential, or future defiler). Through the Spirits of the Land, they have access to knowledge and history that has otherwise been destroyed and forgotten in the world... of course, it is colored by the experiences and personalities of the individual Spirits of the Land, who could very easily see arcane spellcasters as a blight on the world (and could easily have the ability to cite any number of "preservers" who defiled).
While, as I said, it is completely possible for druids to take on a different perspective than this, it is my "rule of thumb" for dealing with druids. I do regularly expect tension between any arcane spellcasters and druids in a group -- just like between templars (and/or my paladins) and any other divine spellcasters in a group.
Now to get back to the topic -- I think that during the Blue Age, the druids were far more idealistic. The world was, after all, ideal for them. I think that they guided the Rhulisti society and technological developments towards symbiosis with nature, rather than a struggle against nature. However, I also think that the Blue Age druids were somewhat naive, and were caught off-gard somewhat by the nature-benders.
Until Horse Buggies became popular, buggy driver was not an official job. Sure people were performing the job of a buggy driver by pulling carts about but they did not have the significance (read place in history) the buggy driver attained.
When the motor vehicle replaced the horse buggy, drivers were no longer necessary, so they fell by the wayside. While there are still buggy drivers, they will likely never attain their previous status. This is typical ebb and flow of societal need.
The Audubon Society and Greenpeace would have nothing to do if there weren’t others who showed disregard for the environment. The need would not be there.
The same can be applied to character classes. If a society does not wage war nor has war waged upon it, there is no need for a standing army; no need for fighters; and no need for more than a local militia.
If the environment is stable, fewer people will concern themselves with it. Societies tend to be reactive, not proactive. That is, they tend to wait for an issue to become a serious problem before doing something about it.
While Druids may have been present during the Blue Age, they would have gained notoriety after the Brown Tide. No doubt they would have been claiming all sorts of gloom and doom before the disaster but the brown tide validated their existence and solidified their place in society. This brought them to the forefront and gave them the recognition they felt was previously deserved. Since the conditions became worse, not better, Druids have continued to enjoy (sometimes to their detriment) a prominent place in Athasian society.
True, the role of the Druid in society may have changed but the fundamentals of the class, since its inception, identify Druids as protectors of nature.
If the Brown Tide never occurred, they would very likely still be on the fringe of society.
/ Steps down from soapbox.
Throughout history, societies have created and brushed aside certain organizations and jobs descriptions, depending upon need/demand.
If the environment is stable, fewer people will concern themselves with it. Societies tend to be reactive, not proactive. That is, they tend to wait for an issue to become a serious problem before doing something about it.
While Druids may have been present during the Blue Age, they would have gained notoriety after the Brown Tide. No doubt they would have been claiming all sorts of gloom and doom before the disaster but the brown tide validated their existence and solidified their place in society. This brought them to the forefront and gave them the recognition they felt was previously deserved. Since the conditions became worse, not better, Druids have continued to enjoy (sometimes to their detriment) a prominent place in Athasian society.
True, the role of the Druid in society may have changed but the fundamentals of the class, since its inception, identify Druids as protectors of nature.
If the Brown Tide never occurred, they would very likely still be on the fringe of society.
/ Steps down from soapbox.
Interesting argument, however, if we work with the notion that the environment was stable in the Blue Age, the thing of it is this. The Pact of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water (as outlined in EAFW), when formed, Spirits of the Land were given the ability to grant Druidic spells to followers, made of equal parts of energy from the four elements -- as a sort of "signing" of that pact (I might be muddying it up a bit, but I'm pretty certain that is more or less the gist of it). Now, that would call for the existence of Druids (for why would they have the power, and not use it).
I believe that the Druids were less the "protectors" of nature, but more of the "caretakers" of nature -- tending to its needs -- as guided by the Spirits of the Land (arguably, the spirits of nature itself). They would tend the land, the animals, the plants. They could have instructed their fellow Rhulisti in how to symbiotically work with nature, rather than fight against it (which arguably, our real-world technology fights against nature more than works together with it). Their place could have been one of respect and honor within Rhulisti society -- wizened caretakers who guide the people in how to coexist with Athas.
Then the Brown Tide happened, and the druids started to have to take a completely different role in nature, slowly shifting from caretaker to protector & guardian. They began to have to defend the land against the ravages of those who would abuse nature -- first the "nature-benders", and later many others, most prominantly the defilers. As time pushed on, druids became less and less part of the societies of the world, and could have had developed their own separate social structure (druidic order) through the Green Age. Then the Cleansing Wars started, and defilers became quite prominant, ravaging the world heedlessly and without mercy -- druids began to shift from the role of guardian and protector of nature, to its avengers. The Brown Age comes upon them, and the druids are staunchly opposed to thevast destructive armies of the Champions of Rajaat. The Champions turn on their master, defeat him, then attack and butcher the next biggest potential threat -- the druids (and the preservers separately), scattering the remaining druids to the far corners of the world.
This leads to the modern Athasian druid -- avenger of nature, guardian/protector of a region, totally opposed to and rejecting the main centers of society (which are corrupted and controlled by the most devistatingly powerful defilers to ever walk the land). Bitter, troubled beings who hear of the atrocities that have happened to this once beautiful world over the millenia in their dreams, and while they wake, from the Spirits of the Land that have weathered these torments. Most likely hateful and lashing out at anything that could accelerate the death of this world (particularly defilers, however I also tend to think that the majority of druids don't bother with distinctions of defiling & preserving amongst arcane spellcasters any more -- every preserver is just another potential defiler, after all).
Or at least, that's my view on the druids. I make my druids rather dark and dangerous to be around, I give them the barbarian rage ability, and the "aspect of nature" wild shape modifications (both from Unearthed Arcana). My druids are decidedly not safe to be around, especially for arcane spellcasters, or servants of sorcerer-kings that may cross them.
I totally agree with you on many of the points you make and I plan to tweak druids in my campaign to walk on the dark/dangerous side. The only issue with that conversion would be the PC presently playing a druid. He really doesn't have a druid’s heart.
Examples - joined up with a group of defilers who were working with Nibenay. He ordered the deaths of Kirre (sp?) kittens from Forest Maker adventure because the party had just killed their parents. He set the bottom of a valley on fire even after I described the oil on the ground. These are just some examples.
He really doesn't have a clue. I have asked him to play a fighter.
Nevertheless, the role of the druid has evolved over the years but I believe the original thread subject was when they appeared on Athas.
We both agree they were present during the Blue Age and that pretty much answers the query.
Ain't it great having a conversation based completely upon speculation? :D
Hey, 99.9% of all of the best discussions on this forum are based completely on speculation. That's the nice thing about here -- people have their own ideas, bring them to the mix, throw them together, and ideas get refined and developed into what hopefully can at least inspire other people to come up with new ideas.
I totally agree with you on many of the points you make and I plan to tweak druids in my campaign to walk on the dark/dangerous side. The only issue with that conversion would be the PC presently playing a druid. He really doesn't have a druid’s heart.
Examples - joined up with a group of defilers who were working with Nibenay. He ordered the deaths of Kirre (sp?) kittens from Forest Maker adventure because the party had just killed their parents. He set the bottom of a valley on fire even after I described the oil on the ground. These are just some examples.
He really doesn't have a clue. I have asked him to play a fighter.
Well, I always run my campaigns with the notion that people can play outside the "typical" class ideals. One druid who acts out of line is one thing (however I'd have his/her Spirit of the Land chide him/her frequently, if not penalize the Druid like restricting the amount of magic available, or making abilities fail at inopportune moments -- not necessarily enough to put the druid directly in the path of dying -- just to "teach" the druid in question the error of his/her ways.)
Nevertheless, the role of the druid has evolved over the years but I believe the original thread subject was when they appeared on Athas.
We both agree they were present during the Blue Age and that pretty much answers the query.
This forum, like many other forums, have tendancies for a topic to wander off to other discussions within a single thread (never a problem when a discussion remains civil; even some of the 'less than civil' discussions here have resulted in impressive ideas being devised). My point was that yes, they were in the Blue Age. I also think they had potentially pivotal roles in Rhulisti society, as well as that their role over the millenia has drastically changed. But yea, we do agree that they were present in the Blue Age.