Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Zardnaar Mar 20, 2006 23:01:24	As the the title asks. In the official timeline they become Dragons once Rajaat is imprisoned and Borys gets transformed into the Dragon. However I don't really like this as it seems to contadict other sources. Note that DS has a contradictions anyway. I believe that Rajaat turned them into Dragons for the folloing reasons. 1. Dragons are immortal and the Cleansing Wars raged for 1500 years. 2. The Sun changed colour at the start of the cleansing wars. Alot of power was drawn upon whch I belive was used to transform the champions into Dragons. 3. RaFoaDK The SKs were Dragons before the end of the Cleansing Wars. 4. City by the Silt Sea. Dregoth was depicted as a Dragon at the start of the wars. If he become a Dragon following the timeline he done alot in the 100 years before the other Champions killed him. 5. Prism Pentad seemed to infer that Rajaat created the Champions. This could be taken in multiple ways though. Hamanu being immune the scourge etc. On this issue the timeline doesn't make any sense. I believe it was an attempt to consolidate all the established DS material but mistakes were made- I could be wrong.
#2 ruhl-than_sage Mar 20, 2006 23:35:44	1. There are other ways of obtaining immortality. 2. No it did. It changed from Blue to Yellow with the start of the Green Age and from Yellow to Red at the End of the Cleansing Wars which marked the start of the Brown Age. 3. Not a Cannon source. 4. Dregoth may be an exception. It is possible that he actually developed the Dragon Metamorphosis process. 5. Rajaat did create the champions, but that does not mean they were dragons.
#3 Zardnaar Mar 21, 2006 1:26:36	2. Start of Cleansing War pg 12 and 13 Revised Boxed Set. Happened at the end of the Age of Magic.
#4 Sysane Mar 21, 2006 8:13:14	There's a thread in which this was heavily debated. It may have been in either the champion template or dragon PrC threads.
#5 monastyrski Mar 21, 2006 8:35:25	1. Dragons are immortal and the Cleansing Wars raged for 1500 years. Champions could be immortal per se. 4. City by the Silt Sea. Dregoth was depicted as a Dragon at the start of the wars. If he become a Dragon following the timeline he done alot in the 100 years before the other Champions killed him. Using 2e terms, if you allow a human PC to obtain 5700000 XP necessary to begin metamorphosis during normal human lifespan, what could prevent mighty Dregoth from obtaining 5600000 more XP in 54 years? On this issue the timeline doesn't make any sense. What does?
#6 cnahumck Mar 21, 2006 9:15:34	2. Start of Cleansing War pg 12 and 13 Revised Boxed Set. Happened at the end of the Age of Magic. While the official timeline does not say when the sun changed, the wanderers chronicle does so. Both should be seen as "Official" in my eyes, as neither contradicts each other. I guess a question I have to the community (and this is not a slam at anyone, just a question) is this: "What difference does it make when the champions became dragons?" The only way it matters is if we are going to make "new" champions for other races (as some have talked about on these threads). This may or may not be "official," but has that really bothered anyone before? We, the community, can do what we want with the world now. And the community, at least in my estimation, is very commited to making sure that any additions that are new and not manuscripts handed to athas.org are very much in the "theme." I don't want to end the debate, I just don't understand why we keep debating it, over and over again. It seems more a DM's choice, rather than an issue of canon.
#7 kalthandrix Mar 21, 2006 10:24:07	Here is my take- The Champions were not Dragons- the two heads were not draconic in any passing mention so it is resonable to think that the Champions, while immortal, were not dragons. I personally subscribe to the theory that Dregoth was the first dragon and the one to develope the process and taught it to Borys who went to use it on all of the Champions who turned against Rajaat. None of this is a huge stretch of the imagination and as Sysane said- this has been debated quite a bit recently- I think it was around the time the first draft of the CoR was released.
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 21, 2006 10:25:19	Champions could be immortal per se.Using 2e terms, if you allow a human PC to obtain 5700000 XP necessary to begin metamorphosis during normal human lifespan, You are under the impression that he had a "normal human lifespan". Dregoth could have already developed life extending capabilities & spells, and could be considerably older than any of the other Champions. The "Green Age" was hardly a short period of time. what could prevent mighty Dregoth from obtaining 5600000 more XP in 54 years?What does? Well, if Rajaat was paying very, very close attention to Dregoth and his research -- or at least, Dregoth was concerned that his master might realize something is different/wrong, then maybe Dregoth was working a bit slower after that. He may not have realized all the effects that the metamorphosis was going to produce, and in a pseudo-scientific manner, expiramented with a variety of things to attempt to "work out the wrinkles". I tend to favor the idea that he let Borys advance to full dragonhood, just to see what the effects would produce. Note -- I'm not saying Dregoth is necessarily the most "scientific" and "research-oriented" of the SK's (Nibenay springs to mind) -- but he's no fool, and he probably has a tendancy to be curious about what affects his expiraments could produce. We already know that he made the Dray, which to me, tells me that he has a little bit of a fundamental understanding on what the Dragon metamorphosis really does.
#9 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 21, 2006 10:37:54	While the official timeline does not say when the sun changed, the wanderers chronicle does so. Both should be seen as "Official" in my eyes, as neither contradicts each other. I guess a question I have to the community (and this is not a slam at anyone, just a question) is this: "What difference does it make when the champions became dragons?" The only way it matters is if we are going to make "new" champions for other races (as some have talked about on these threads). This may or may not be "official," but has that really bothered anyone before? We, the community, can do what we want with the world now. And the community, at least in my estimation, is very commited to making sure that any additions that are new and not manuscripts handed to athas.org are very much in the "theme." I don't want to end the debate, I just don't understand why we keep debating it, over and over again. It seems more a DM's choice, rather than an issue of canon. Honestly, I think it comes to personal preference. I tend to dislike the notion that Rajaat caused all the bad things in the world to take place. Sure, Rajaat developed and brought forth his Arcane magic, he groomed and made his Champions, but I don't like the idea that he somehow made the Dragon metamorphosis process possible as well (besides, it seems to be a rather...inefficient method for him to develop), just like I don't like the notion that the Champions could grant spells to Templars right off the top. I like the idea that the Sorcerer-Kings are actually the products of several different more or less unique situations that combined produces the SK's we know today. I have (in a number of threads before) explained my theory on that Dregoth could have invented & developed the Dragon metamorphosis spells & process. He has a rather long period of time when he had conquered the Giant city of Giustenal, where he just "hung out" there and didn't apparently do anything. During that time, he could have been working on the process. I think Rajaat caught wind of what Dregoth was doing, stole the process & research (not too difficult for the First Sorcerer, and it would be major hubris on Dregoth's part to think he could really hide this from his master -- which Dregoth has no shortage of hubris/ego). I think that Rajaat manipulated Dregoth's process, and used it when he made Hamanu a Champion... set up Hamanu as his "final solution" so to speak. I think when Hamanu found out what Rajaat had planned and told Borys, that Borys probably went to Dregoth (who was possibly viewed as the elder Champion, and also somewhat rebellious against Rajaat already). Dregoth revealed to Borys what he was working on, as a possible way to battle and defeat their deranged master. He initiated the process in Borys, however they didn't have enough power available to complete the process in either Dregoth or Borys (I don't think anyone really knew what Hamanu was about then -- Hamanu kept a lot of his true nature hidden). The rebellion happens, and the Borys shows the process to the other rebel Champions, which results in their becoming dragons, and each of them being connected to living vortices and such (he even used the process on Dregoth and on Hamanu -- the former just for "show", the latter because they just didn't know). With each of them now as the beginnings of being dragons, they had enough power to elevate Borys into The Dragon... which had some incredible and unexpected side-effects (that Dregoth kept note of, in order to figure out how to avoid it himself).
#10 dirk00001 Mar 21, 2006 11:06:56	I like Xlorep's interpretation, although I don't think that the S-Ks were, by default, turned into dragons by Borys - all of the canon material that I'm aware of only specifies that the living vortice connection was a "must" for the S-Ks, and was what made them such; add in the fact that there are several (non-RaFoaDK) sources that seem to indicate that Kalak wasn't a dragon at all until he tried performing the full 10-step process all at once (see the Kalak thread) and overall I think it's more likely that the metamorphosis process was simply taught as a "here's your next step to godly power, guys" suggestion as opposed to being an integral part of Borys' turning the champs into S-Ks. I don't have the Wanderer's Chronicle handy at the moment, but I swear there's even a statement to that effect when it talks about Borys' creating the S-Ks.
#11 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 21, 2006 12:19:00	I like Xlorep's interpretation, although I don't think that the S-Ks were, by default, turned into dragons by Borys - all of the canon material that I'm aware of only specifies that the living vortice connection was a "must" for the S-Ks, and was what made them such; add in the fact that there are several (non-RaFoaDK) sources that seem to indicate that Kalak wasn't a dragon at all until he tried performing the full 10-step process all at once (see the Kalak thread) and overall I think it's more likely that the metamorphosis process was simply taught as a "here's your next step to godly power, guys" suggestion as opposed to being an integral part of Borys' turning the champs into S-Ks. I don't have the Wanderer's Chronicle handy at the moment, but I swear there's even a statement to that effect when it talks about Borys' creating the S-Ks. While not saying you are completely incorrect with that (because I don't have my books handy right this moment), however... I could have sworn that somewhere (in what's called "cannonical" places -- that term may be overused tho) it is noted that Borys used the Dark Lens to make them into the forst level/stage of Dragonhood. This attracted the living vortices unexpectedly, and the whole Templar spell-granting thing was a side-effect that the Sorcerer-Kings still don't quite understand in its entirety (many just view it as a side-effect of the dragon metamorphosis process, others due to the use of the Dark Lens).
#12 elonarc Mar 21, 2006 15:59:45	Dragon Kings, page 11: In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosing spells, the sorcerer-kings each attracted the attention of a very powerful and rare creature - a living vortex. Borys made them dragons via the Dark Lens and all recipents attracted a living vortex as an unforeseen side-effect. /aside Kalak would not need Sacha and Wyan around to grant spells to his templars...the heads couldn't grant spells in the first place.
#13 monastyrski Mar 21, 2006 16:17:33	You are under the impression that he had a "normal human lifespan". Dregoth could have already developed life extending capabilities & spells, and could be considerably older than any of the other Champions. The "Green Age" was hardly a short period of time. Well, if Rajaat was paying very, very close attention to Dregoth and his research -- or at least, Dregoth was concerned that his master might realize something is different/wrong, then maybe Dregoth was working a bit slower after that. He may not have realized all the effects that the metamorphosis was going to produce, and in a pseudo-scientific manner, expiramented with a variety of things to attempt to "work out the wrinkles". I tend to favor the idea that he let Borys advance to full dragonhood, just to see what the effects would produce. Note -- I'm not saying Dregoth is necessarily the most "scientific" and "research-oriented" of the SK's (Nibenay springs to mind) -- but he's no fool, and he probably has a tendancy to be curious about what affects his expiraments could produce. We already know that he made the Dray, which to me, tells me that he has a little bit of a fundamental understanding on what the Dragon metamorphosis really does. No, I have said nothing about the normal human lifespan of Dregoth. Moreover, I think that Dregoth was immortal since his transformation into Champion. I also think that no champion had been anyhow transformed into dragon by the Year of Desert Vengeance, 164th King's Age. If the campaign is set later, the only thing we must know is that the defiler metamorphosis spell had been developed by that year, no matter who had actually developed it (as for me, I think that it was Rajaat himself, who taught it his Champions as a sample of abstract theory). When Rajaat had been defeated and Champions had become 21th level dragons, they began to advance individually. Dregoth, the quickest, had got 28th level in 54 years, by the Year of Friend's Fury, when he was slain. I think that this theory is the most consistent with both official timeline and common sense.
#14 monastyrski Mar 21, 2006 16:23:25	Dragon Kings, page 11:Borys made them dragons via the Dark Lens and all recipents attracted a living vortex as an unforeseen side-effect. The later source, Defilers and Preservers, prevails.
#15 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 21, 2006 16:28:09	No, I have said nothing about the normal human lifespan of Dregoth. Moreover, I think that Dregoth was immortal since his transformation into Champion. I also think that no champion had been anyhow transformed into dragon by the Year of Desert Vengeance, 164th King's Age. If the campaign is set later, the only thing we must know is that the defiler metamorphosis spell had been developed by that year, no matter who had actually developed it (as for me, I think that it was Rajaat himself, who taught it his Champions as a sample of abstract theory). When Rajaat had been defeated and Champions had become 21th level dragons, they began to advance individually. Dregoth, the quickest, had got 28th level in 54 years, by the Year of Friend's Fury, when he was slain. I think that this theory is the most consistent with both official timeline and common sense. Ahh, well.... I believe that Dregoth had been already working down the Dragon path before Rajaat was defeated. I don't believe he was made to a (in 2e terms) 21st level dragon when Rajaat was defeated. I work with the notion that he invented the process, instructed Borys in the process, and was already well on his way as a dragon before they all became Sorcerer-Kings. I don't like the idea that Rajaat somehow had to be the initiator for virtually everything on Athas dealing with the Arcane world, to include dragons. I mean, if the Champions were supposed to be his "best and brightest", why do they have to get all of their abilities and knowledge from him?
#16 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Mar 21, 2006 16:33:29	The later source, Defilers and Preservers, prevails. It doesn't contradict the other source. Borys uses the Dark Lens to make them Dragons, each individual Sorcerer-King has to cast the spell themselves (the Dark Lens just provides the extra energy needed, possibly replacing the need for life-energy in the spell). If anything, the two sources compliment and fill-out (expand upon) each other.
#17 dirk00001 Mar 21, 2006 23:40:56	While not saying you are completely incorrect with that (because I don't have my books handy right this moment), however... I could have sworn that somewhere (in what's called "cannonical" places -- that term may be overused tho) it is noted that Borys used the Dark Lens to make them into the forst level/stage of Dragonhood. This attracted the living vortices unexpectedly, and the whole Templar spell-granting thing was a side-effect that the Sorcerer-Kings still don't quite understand in its entirety (many just view it as a side-effect of the dragon metamorphosis process, others due to the use of the Dark Lens). Whoops, yer right - I was referring to the Wanderer's Chronicle as my source, and I just pulled it out and noticed that it stated that the elemental vortices made their connections as the initial metamorphosis spells were cast...doesn't specifically say that they were turned into dragons, but it definitely suggests that (especially since it then goes on to state how Borys told 'em all that one needed to complete the metamorphosis).
#18 Pennarin Apr 04, 2006 2:16:21	Man, this thread is a blast ... Anyone remember when I was freakin out with the comments-not-backed-up-by-hard-facts people were dishing out, oh...a year ago, and went on a multi-hour typing spree where I collected something like 20 quotes from Preservers & Defilers, Revised Set, Beyond the Prism Pentad, Original Box, Timeline, etc, ... which all said contradictary things but also said more about history than any single reference? Heh, guess not, but oh man it was a beautiful post, shut up everyone real good. Snif. Should have saved it. Idiot.
#19 terminus_vortexa Apr 05, 2006 15:29:24	Man, nobody can argue better than a DS DM with an agenda........!!!! :D
#20 jon_oracle_of_athas Apr 06, 2006 3:03:46	The later source, Defilers and Preservers, prevails. Why? :P
#21 flindbar Apr 06, 2006 3:25:58	Another question ...... I can understand that RaFoaDK is not considered canon but is the novel "Cinnabar Shadows" ???? The reason I ask is that it also bears references to Hamanu, his visit to the Pristine tower, his metamorphosis to dragon and the cleansing wars. Just askin :D
#22 Pennarin Apr 06, 2006 3:50:10	Another question ...... I can understand that RaFoaDK is not considered canon but is teh novel "Cinnabar Shadows" ???? The reason I ask is that it also bears references to Hamanu, his visit to the Pristine tower, his metamorphosis to dragon and tyhe cleansing wars. Just askin :D I have not seen people voice an opinion on Cinnabar Shadows and The Brazen Gambit, even though all three novels (Rise and Fall being the third) are sort of a trilogy. Same author, characters, same version of DS.
#23 Zardnaar Apr 06, 2006 4:10:03	Not sure if DS has canon as theres a few contradictions here and there. I prefer the source that Rajaat created the 1st Dragons for example while the timeline contradicts this and game material.
#24 flindbar Apr 06, 2006 6:06:47	I have not seen people voice an opinion on Cinnabar Shadows and The Brazen Gambit, even though all three novels (Rise and Fall being the third) are sort of a trilogy. Same author, characters, same version of DS. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I like them. I know I might be on the small side of a two way split, but I have to admit that I like both of the first two novels. Pavek is one of my favourite characters :D
#25 the_peacebringer Apr 06, 2006 6:41:27	I know I might be on the small side of a two way split, but I have to admit that I like both of the first two novels. Pavek is one of my favourite characters :D Hey, you're not the only one, Flind. I love Abbey's work... unfortunately, I have not managed to get RaFoaDK yet, so I can't really comment on it. I say dragons were not created by Rajaat (but of course, the Champions were). Let's give the SKs some of the credit for their self-improvement. Maybe it was a joint effort with Borys and Dregoth having pierced most of the recipe to become dragons (and maybe a little bit of "industrial" espionage). Anyways, that's how I see it. That would've happened before Rajaat was emprisonned (although, somehow behind his back) and hence gave them the power to do so (and that could explain why the sources are so contradictory). But hey, I'm the Gulg-man, not the before-Athas-was-green-and-Rajaat-ruled-man so maybe I'm just talking out of my ***. :D