Also, shouldn't Irda clerics or wizards gain one additional spell of the highest level they can cast?
I was reading over my 2nd ed. copy of Dragonlance Adventures and I noticed that. It also stated that they had a hereditary monarchy descended from Igrane. Did this change after the War of the Lance or was it entirely revised?
Also, on the topic of the War of the Lance, was Anaiatha still attacked during the War? Were Irda children still kidnapped?
I also just got my hands on the Dragonlance Dungeon master's screen companion. Irda are supposed to be the longest-lived of the races, by quite a stretch, so why do they have lifespans that are shorter than elves(max age 350 +4d%, Irda 500 +1d%)? Igrane was not quite 800 in The Irda novel, and he was only mature adult, or perhaps old. After all Silvanos lived to be way over 1000 right?
Shouldn't Irda be taller? They are supposes to be Ogres that didn't degenrate so, according to the companion, it would make more sense that they would be about minotaur height.
Should Irda be allowed to take the Magic in the Blood feat at first level?
On a side note, what about allowing the Irda to take Highborn Drow, and Lolth's Blessing? Except as Highborn Irda and Solinari/Lunitari/Nuitari's Blessing(depending on the Irda's alignment)?
Should Irda be immune to magic sleep and charm effects like other shapeshifters?
I was looking over the Irda, and shouldn't they have a +2 dexterty as well as a +2 Intelligence and Charisma?
Not in 3.5. Given their +2 level adjustment, however, it probably wouldn't make much difference if they did in terms of game balance.
Also, shouldn't Irda clerics or wizards gain one additional spell of the highest level they can cast?
Irda racial stats don't translate directly to 3.5 from AD&D. In other words, if it says they can do something in 1st edition's Dragonlance Adventures or 2nd edition's Dragonlance Monstrous Compendium Appendix or Tales of the Lance, it doesn't mean it made it into 3.5.
I was reading over my 2nd ed. copy of Dragonlance Adventures and I noticed that. It also stated that they had a hereditary monarchy descended from Igrane. Did this change after the War of the Lance or was it entirely revised?[/i]
Likely revised. Plus, most of the irda are now dead, so it's a little hard to maintain a hereditary monarchy.Also, on the topic of the War of the Lance, was Anaiatha still attacked during the War? Were Irda children still kidnapped?
That wasn't covered by the DLCS history, though it may still have been the case.I also just got my hands on the Dragonlance Dungeon master's screen companion. Irda are supposed to be the longest-lived of the races, by quite a stretch, so why do they have lifespans that are shorter than elves(max age 350 +4d%, Irda 500 +1d%)? Igrane was not quite 800 in The Irda novel, and he was only mature adult, or perhaps old. After all Silvanos lived to be way over 1000 right?
No, the elves still beat them out on that.Shouldn't Irda be taller? They are supposes to be Ogres that didn't degenrate so, according to the companion, it would make more sense that they would be about minotaur height.
How do you know the ogres didn't just get bigger?Should Irda be allowed to take the Magic in the Blood feat at first level?
Go for it.On a side note, what about allowing the Irda to take Highborn Drow, and Lolth's Blessing? Except as Highborn Irda and Solinari/Lunitari/Nuitari's Blessing(depending on the Irda's alignment)?
Sure.Should Irda be immune to magic sleep and charm effects like other shapeshifters?
The shapechanger subtype (DLCS incorrectly calls it the "shapeshifter" subtype) doesn't get those benefits automatically.
Cheers,
Cam
While it is not highly flaunted or detailed Neither the Ogres, Ogre Mges, or the Irda are exactly what the HIgh Ogre originally was. For instance the Irda are the descendants of Igraine and remained the closest to what the High Ogre orignally were, however they only became shapeshifters when Mishakel bestowed this ability on them after Igraine left the Ogre civilization behind.
As far as the Stats for the Irda in ToTL they had a +1 to Int, Dex, & Cha, -3 to Con. Now in 3.5 they have a +2 to Int, Cha, -2 Con. I think they have already got the better of the deal. If you added a +2 to Dex that would be a 4 point difference rather than a 2 point difference. If it were fair (and a direct conversion) the irda would have +2 to Dex, Int, Cha & -6 to Con. A slight bit of difference here.
Irda, if anything were closer to being Sorcerors rather than wizards as they were magic-users long before the orders were even established. So if they had any bonuses for Rcane it would probably be towards Sorceror rather than Wizard.
One can only assume that the Government of the Irda did not change as a result of teh WoTL as the irda (as far as i know) were not involved in this war. We do know however that all irda that were on the Island at the outset of the Chaos war were destroyed and that the only Irda left in the world were those who were not on the island and therefore there really is no government now for the Irda. During the war aparently a bunch of evil dragons attacked the Irda island and although were repelled they took many captives. We can only guess that this happened at or near the same time that the Good dragon's eggs were stolen. But yes, Anaiathia (if that is the name of the irda island) was attacked.
Yes Irda lilve longer than the elves as evidenced by the 500+ years versus the 350+ years. The other thing to remember is writer's prerogative. In every story (D&D or otherwise) elves live thousands & thousands of years.
As before Mishakel changed the Irda in order for them to better hide in amongst the lesser races, one can only assume she changed thier height as well. If a person is used to a certain height and then changes (as one would do when shapechanging) their center of balance changes and throws off the persons balance. We chn only assume that Mishakel changed their height in order to off-set this inconvenience.
Where are the feats Magic in the Blood, Highborn Drow, and Lolth's Blessing?
The shapechanger subtype does not entail any immunity to sleep or other effect as detailed in the Monster Manual. If a shapechanger has immunity to Sleep then it probably comes from something other than being a shapechanger.
Dang you Cam for being a faster typer....
Not in 3.5. Given their +2 level adjustment, however, it probably wouldn't make much difference if they did in terms of game balance.
Irda racial stats don't translate directly to 3.5 from AD&D. In other words, if it says they can do something in 1st edition's Dragonlance Adventures or 2nd edition's Dragonlance Monstrous Compendium Appendix or Tales of the Lance, it doesn't mean it made it into 3.5.I was reading over my 2nd ed. copy of Dragonlance Adventures and I noticed that. It also stated that they had a hereditary monarchy descended from Igrane. Did this change after the War of the Lance or was it entirely revised?[/i]
Likely revised. Plus, most of the irda are now dead, so it's a little hard to maintain a hereditary monarchy.
That wasn't covered by the DLCS history, though it may still have been the case.
No, the elves still beat them out on that.
How do you know the ogres didn't just get bigger?
Go for it.
Sure.
The shapechanger subtype (DLCS incorrectly calls it the "shapeshifter" subtype) doesn't get those benefits automatically.
Cheers,
Cam
Thanks for the speedy reply!
What you said about the dex bonus is exactly what I ruled, all those comments on their grace and all.
I always kind of thought that True Ogres weren't large. There were many comments on the shortness of humans of that era and elves in general.
Also thanks for the clarification on shapechanger!
Will the Irda get a section in the upcoming Races of Ansalon book?
First off the Irda and the High Ogre are different to certain degrees.
While it is not highly flaunted or detailed Neither the Ogres, Ogre Mges, or the Irda are exactly what the HIgh Ogre originally was. For instance the Irda are the descendants of Igraine and remained the closest to what the High Ogre orignally were, however they only became shapeshifters when Mishakel bestowed this ability on them after Igraine left the Ogre civilization behind.
As far as the Stats for the Irda in ToTL they had a +1 to Int, Dex, & Cha, -3 to Con. Now in 3.5 they have a +2 to Int, Cha, -2 Con. I think they have already got the better of the deal. If you added a +2 to Dex that would be a 4 point difference rather than a 2 point difference. If it were fair (and a direct conversion) the irda would have +2 to Dex, Int, Cha & -6 to Con. A slight bit of difference here.
Irda, if anything were closer to being Sorcerors rather than wizards as they were magic-users long before the orders were even established. So if they had any bonuses for Rcane it would probably be towards Sorceror rather than Wizard.
One can only assume that the Government of the Irda did not change as a result of teh WoTL as the irda (as far as i know) were not involved in this war. We do know however that all irda that were on the Island at the outset of the Chaos war were destroyed and that the only Irda left in the world were those who were not on the island and therefore there really is no government now for the Irda. During the war aparently a bunch of evil dragons attacked the Irda island and although were repelled they took many captives. We can only guess that this happened at or near the same time that the Good dragon's eggs were stolen. But yes, Anaiathia (if that is the name of the irda island) was attacked.
Yes Irda lilve longer than the elves as evidenced by the 500+ years versus the 350+ years. The other thing to remember is writer's prerogative. In every story (D&D or otherwise) elves live thousands & thousands of years.
As before Mishakel changed the Irda in order for them to better hide in amongst the lesser races, one can only assume she changed thier height as well. If a person is used to a certain height and then changes (as one would do when shapechanging) their center of balance changes and throws off the persons balance. We chn only assume that Mishakel changed their height in order to off-set this inconvenience.
Where are the feats Magic in the Blood, Highborn Drow, and Lolth's Blessing?
The shapechanger subtype does not entail any immunity to sleep or other effect as detailed in the Monster Manual. If a shapechanger has immunity to Sleep then it probably comes from something other than being a shapechanger.
Dang you Cam for being a faster typer....
Also, thanks for your input. The stats I was referring to came out of the AD&D Dragonlance Adventures hard-backed rulebook. I didn't know that different stats were provided in ToTL.
The bonus I listed for spellcasting also came from said sourcebook.
As for the information concerning the inovlvement of the Irda in the War of the Lance era that actually was a part of the original histories(maybe even still in 3.5 depending on what comes up...). Just before the start of the War proper the Dark Queen sent flights of red dragons to punish the Irda for their betrayal. A titanic magical battle ensued and the Irda eventually repelled the dragons. However, many of their children were kidnapped. They originally came to Ansalon during the War of the Lance to search for those children. Though according to the information almost all of those Irda were never able to return home. They, and those Irda children, have been growing and hiding amongst the normal races of Ansalon since then. In theory, anyways. This is how I explain Irda player characters. They are those children who never returned home.
Also you must remember until the creation of the sorcerer class as we know it there was only wizards back in Krynn in the old days. Dragons casted spells like wizards, and so did Irda. They were able to be unlimited levels in Wizard of High Sorcery, and they specifically were not allowed to produce renegade mages(like the other races did). As for the cleric spells, back in the age of dreams, originally, there was no arcane magic. The Gods of Magic had clerics and their essences were not housed in moons(which was part of their punishment for giving the mortals arcane magic).
Cam, if you wouldn't mind answering another question, can the Gods of Magic once again have clerics? I was thinking of expanding on their old portfolio elements of watchfullness and vigilance/the mind and dreams/and ambition respectively? Since the other Gods won't dare risk harming their respective artifacts the weird cousins can get away with pretty much anything...
The feats I listed came out of the Races of Faerun sourcebook for the Forgotten realms setting. In a nut shell, magic-in-the-blood must be taken at first level, and allows a character with racial spell-like abilities of 1/day to use them 3/day. Highborn drow lets a drow use detect magic, levitate, and detect good 1/day as racial spell-like abilities. Lolth's blessing allowed a Drow cleric of at least 6th level to use clairaudience/clairvoyance, dispel magic, and suggestion 1/day as racial spell-like abilities. In the Irda's case I was making the Gods of Magic's blessing a wizard level of 6th instead.
Cam, if you wouldn't mind answering another question, can the Gods of Magic once again have clerics? I was thinking of expanding on their old portfolio elements of watchfullness and vigilance/the mind and dreams/and ambition respectively? Since the other Gods won't dare risk harming their respective artifacts the weird cousins can get away with pretty much anything...
No, they long ago gave up the ability to grant spells to clerics in order to give High Sorcery to the world.
Cheers,
Cam
For instance: Irda originally got +2 to Dex, Int, Cha, - 2 to Con in the DLA (AD&D-1987). In the ToTL (2nd AD&D-1992) they got +1 to Dex, Int, Cha, -3 to Con (stats a little more balanaced). And now the DLCS (3.5-2003) +2 Int, Cha -2 to Con (again unbalanced).
Another thing (of which you inquired) is the Clerics of the gods of Magic. According to Cam reply the gods of magic gave up divine magic when they created the orders, yet in both the DLA and the ToTL these gods had clerics (after the orders were established), in the ToTL clerics were even required to be a 5th level Wizard before becoming a cleric, this would also require them to take the test of magic (in order to get past 3rd lev wizard) in order to be a cleric.
Yet with the new history of the world and the creation of sorcerer things get changed.
Basically what it boils down to is exactly what Kirtanus said, if you are the DM use what you want and make what changes you feel need to be made in order for the world to reflect how you see Dragonlance. If you are not the DM then work with your DM and get hs feel for what you are trying to accomplish with your character.
Basically what it boils down to is exactly what Kirtanus said, if you are the DM use what you want and make what changes you feel need to be made in order for the world to reflect how you see Dragonlance.
Even the designers do this, by the way. I've never played in a 100% canon campaign, not even Cam's.
Another thing (of which you inquired) is the Clerics of the gods of Magic. According to Cam reply the gods of magic gave up divine magic when they created the orders, yet in both the DLA and the ToTL these gods had clerics (after the orders were established).
The gods of magic did not have clerics in DLA. This is a misunderstanding that comes about because the writeups of the gods in the Holy Orders of the Stars chapter includes "Followers Abilities" and says the spheres they have are those of the respective Orders of High Sorcery. What this is actually saying is that the followers of the gods of magic are the wizards, not clerics with the spheres of wizards. This is backed up by the introduction on page 11 and by the fact that the gods of magic aren't included in the tables at the back of the book.
Tales of the Lance did introduce clerics of the gods of magic, but this has been taken out of continuity.
Cheers,
Cam
Now usually whenever the term "not counting" is used, it is in reference to something that should be counted. What should also be remembered is that this statement is refering to the Holy Orders of the Stars. One automatically assumes that all clerics are a part of the Holy orders. However any clerics for the gods of magic would naturally work more closely with the Wizards of high sorcery versus maintaining ties with the Holy Orders. As most people, including other clerics, would have difficulty in determing the difference between a cleric of Solinari, versus a wizard of Solinari (especially taking into account the require of actually being a wizard in addition to a cleric-ToTL) it is only comonplace for the people to believe that there are no clerics of the Gods of magic.
It all depends on how you look at it. Unless of course oe could talk to the designers, which I will have to assume you ave done.
Yes Cam that is one way of looking at it. However there is another way to look at it. What is written on page 11 states "As there are six seperate gods in each of these divisions (not counting the gods of magic), there are no fewer than 18 seperate true gods who maintain a variety of orders each."
The addition of clerics of Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari was purely a 2nd edition change, and one which didn't make it to 3rd edition. The Sage Advice column in Dragon magazine #143 (March, 1989) clarifies that the gods of magic do not have clerics.
Cheers,
Cam
Unless of course oe could talk to the designers, which I will have to assume you ave done.
It's a safe bet that he has, yes.
No, they long ago gave up the ability to grant spells to clerics in order to give High Sorcery to the world.
Cheers,
Cam
If that is the case, then, shouldn't a 3rd level spell or higher from a Wizard of High Sorcery(not a sorcerer or a renegade) be able to hurt an aspect with the equvalency of a 3rd level cleric spell cast by a member of the Holr Orders of the Stars? Also, in the novels it pained Dalamar, and Raistlin to set foot on holy ground just like they were evil clerics. In my games I give the Orders of High Sorcery the Aura of Good, Evil, or Law/Chaos, that clerics get. It has no real in-game benefit and serves the roleplaying function nicely.