Since my native tongue is French you’ll have to forgive my poor English. It should get better with time.
Most races and classes for this edition of the DS3.5 are balanced….except for the gladiator. Most of the time when we say something is “unbalanced” it’s because it’s too powerful, but in this peculiar case the gladiator is blatantly UNDERpowered. In my point of view, a pure fighter will always be a little better…and a multi-class fighter….well as I will demonstrate the poor little gladiator don’t stand a chance…
In terms of BAB, saves and hit dice, they’re both equal. (Yes, hit dice, in my experience having a d12 or a d10 doesn’t matter as long as you have a decent Constitution bonus. Let’s just say it’s a very slight edge the gladiator has…he can take a bit more beating….it won’t help him much.)
For starting weapon and armor profiencies, they compare. Heavy armor for fighters is not fashionable in an arena…..and in Dark Sun in general. A fighter also gets the tower shield proficiency….lets say it’s the trade off for the d10 hit die (even though it’s a lot better).
Lets start with the basics (feats and skills):
A straight fighter will have a choice of 18 feats during is 1st to 20th level progression…. a very WIDE array of feats. You can make him a power attacking monster, a throwing machine, an archer, even a grappler! Anything you can think of! In terms of skills, well he’s limited but hey you can’t have everything. Besides, very few skills will aid him in his main function: cracking your skull! (By the way, I personnaly think Knowledge (warfare) as a class skill for fighters should be in the PHB. This was a great addition by the DS crew.)
In comparaison, the gladiator get 7 generic feats plus 7 class specific feats (exotic weapons, unarmed strike, improved feint). This specialisation may seem balanced because he gets a lot of useful skills. Mainly Bluff for feints and Tumble to get were it hurts (flanking) or to get out of the way! Other abilities like Arena Guile, Superior feint, Insightful feint, improve upon those specialised feats….(a hell a lot of good this will do him…)
Let’s compare a 4th level fighter, 4th level gladiator, and a multi-classed Rog1/Fit2/Bar1. They all wield two-handed weapons. Let’s pretend they’re all half-elfs (no special abilities toward fighting, strenght bonus, bonus feats, etc We are comparing classes after all.) with the following scores STR 14, DEX 14, CON 14, Int 13, WIS 10, CHA 10. Very ordinary scores for a PC, smarter than average for a fighter (13) but not getting access to combat expertise tree really hurts when you’re in the gladiator business….
A 4th level fighter: Power Attack, Improved Sunder (to destroy weapons, shields, armor, etc.), Improved Bull Rush, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm…..he has a few tricks in his sleaves…..
A 4th level gladiator: Power Attack, Exotic Weapon, Unarmed Strike, Improved Feint (with a maxed out Bluff), Improved Sunder
Both of them can sunder each other’s weapon, the gladiator can nullify the fighter’s dexterity (not negligable), but the fighter can bull rush and get the gladiator prone, can disarm him if his weapon is not has hard, he could have taken Improved Initiative, Dodge Mobility, Spring Attack…the fighter just has more options and his option keeps getting better has he gets levels.
Now for the multi-classed character: Rog1 (the first level of course)/Fit2/Barb1
Sneak Attack +1D6, Skill Focus (Bluff), Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Power Attack…see where I’m getting…. Feinting your opponent and power attacking him with a sneak attack should be illegal….If it doesn’t work, you rage, and if getting angry doesn’t work, you can still make a living out in the streets with all those skills of yours….did I mention you’re faster too?
Since a gladiator is basically a specialized form a fighter. Taking straight levels of gladiator should be attractive to starting PCs…but it’s not. I could go on about Armor optimization and how useless it is when comparing to a ranger’s favored enemy class feature (every five levels)….But instead of complaining, I’ll try to compose a new and improved gladiator class in my next post. While waiting for this, I could use some insight…
Mike
P.S.: I liked the feel of the earlier version of the gladiator class the one with “bringing the house down”, difficult to remember if it was balanced but it was fun! It gave the gladiator a professionnal wrestler feel. "Can you smellllllll what Rikkus is cookin'!?" :D
I didn’t keep that version of the DS3 rules…anyone has them?
If anything I think that the latter levels of the class could be improved a bit, but everything up until level 8 looks good to me, and the level 15 ability is dynamite.
You definately have a point about Armor Optimization, I would much rather see it as a stackable ability, having a slight benefit in several different types of armor seems a little pointless. And other than Superior Fient, their aren't any really good abilities at later levels in the class.
Here, you should take a look at the Gladiator class that Nethrek came up with.
Netherek's Gladiator
Personally I like some of the stuff he has done with it quite a bit, but I would perfer to keep some of the original Athas.org gladiator framework and just tweak it with certain things. The Special Abilities (like the rouge special abilities) are the best idea to come out of his version IMO and I also like the streamlining of the Armor Optimization ability to cover entire categories of armor.
As for stuff for the armor optimization - there was a Dragon mag that had some good feats and stuff in it quit a while back that fit into this- it was for a alternative fighter class called the Shieldbearer. I will have to look up the issue tonight and post it (the number) so you can check it out.
A straight level rogue sneak attack is deadly, a straight level fighter feat combos are litteraly frightening, a straight level wizard can cast high level spells with or without meta-magic and don't get me started on druids....
If the only reason to multi-class is because the class is only good at low level you start having a barbarian or ranger syndrome...take little bit of this a little bit of that....
IMO, a gladiator is not just a thug with flashy moves...he's a master of one-on-one combat, no matter what the match-up. The class should show that.
If you can make up a better gladiator (not the class the occupation) combining any classes other than gladiator....the class should be overhauled.
My point is that a class, any class, should be attractive enough to put straight levels in it.
A straight level rogue sneak attack is deadly, a straight level fighter feat combos are litteraly frightening, a straight level wizard can cast high level spells with or without meta-magic and don't get me started on druids....
Point taken, I agree that the Gladiator is a little weak at higher levels. He is the master of specialized combat manuevers and crowd pleasing displays, but his high level abilities lack the punch of other classes high level abilities, excepting Superior Fient.
If the only reason to multi-class is because the class is only good at low level you start having a barbarian or ranger syndrome...take little bit of this a little bit of that....
I wouldn't go that far.... a class can be good at low levels and still be good at high levels too. I understand what you are saying, but it's not the only reason to multiclass.
IMO, a gladiator is not just a thug with flashy moves...he's a master of one-on-one combat, no matter what the match-up. The class should show that.
He is also a performer. It's not just about beating your opponent, it's about beating them with style. I think that the gladiator skill selection does a good job of displaying this aspect of the class and the Exotic Weapons and Unarmed Combat abilities ensure that the Gladiator will be able to fight well with just about any equipment.
If you can make up a better gladiator (not the class the occupation) combining any classes other than gladiator....the class should be overhauled.
The class needs a touch-up, not an overhual. Anyway did you checkout that link I posted? Maybe you and Netherek are on the same page with Gladiators....
Also, enough with the argument for change! What do you want to change? How would you change it and why? Try to be at least a little bit constructive. It's easy to critisize, but its a lot harder to create.
I have always felt the gladiator would be better off as a PrC vs. a core class. I've voiced this long ago, and still stand by it for the most part.
The only problem with that is that some Gladiators are raised from birth to fight in the arena (Usually Muls). What would they be if not Gladiators? None of the other classes really fit for someone trained to be a Gladiator from an early age. The best approximations are Fighter-Rogues and Monk, but a lot of Rogue and Monk abilities don't really make sense in that context. I suppose you could do it, it would just be a bit awkward... I could see Barbarians kind of working as well.
All and all it seems justified IMO to have a base class for them in this particular setting, even if they wouldn't make sense as a base class in a lot of other settings.
The only problem with that is that some Gladiators are raised from birth to fight in the arena (Usually Muls). What would they be if not Gladiators? None of the other classes really fit for someone trained to be a Gladiator from an early age. The best approximations are Fighter-Rogues and Monk, but a lot of Rogue and Monk abilities don't really make sense in that context. I suppose you could do it, it would just be a bit awkward... I could see Barbarians kind of working as well.
All and all it seems justified IMO to have a base class for them in this particular setting, even if they wouldn't make sense as a base class in a lot of other settings.
Straight fighter would fit IMO. It could be later diversified with other classes like rogue, barbarian, or psy warrior (in rare cases). Its all in how you choose perceive the core classes. Not every rogue has to be a cutpurse or pick pocket, not every barbarian has be from primitive culture or a bloodthristy savage, not every fighter has to be a guard or a soldier. Would-be gladiators could have come from any of those core classes before entering the gladiator PrC itself.
I'm not saying that gladiator sould not be a core class, but it could just as easily be a PrC.
Straight fighter would fit IMO. It could be later diversified with other classes like rogue, barbarian, or psy warrior (in rare cases). Its all in how you choose perceive the core classes. Not every rogue has to be a cutpurse or pick pocket, not every barbarian has be from primitive culture or a bloodthristy savage, not every fighter has to be a guard or a soldier. Would-be gladiators could have come from any of those core classes before entering the gladiator PrC itself.
The only problem with straight fighter is a dearth of skills. It fits really well except for the lack of Tumble, Balance, and Perform as class skills. If you trained a gladiator from birth wouldn't you have trained him in these skills and possibly Bluff and Sense Motive as well, they are all very useful in the arena. Even a human fighter with a decent intelligence (13 for Combat Expertise
) is going to have a hard time picking up the ranks in skills he would need to be a well rounded Gladiator. At 1st level that's 16 skill points. If he bought up even one rank in all those skill he would only have 6 skill points left, and he's capped at 2 ranks in something he has supposedly been training at.I'm not saying that gladiator sould not be a core class, but it could just as easily be a PrC.
It could and in just about any other setting that's what I would go for. Personally I only let characters take levels in Gladiator if they spend a lot of time in the arena or pit fighting, so in that way it is a prestiege class (it has a Special prerequisite).
The only problem with straight fighter is a dearth of skills. It fits really well except for the lack of Tumble, Balance, and Perform as class skills. If you trained a gladiator from birth wouldn't you have trained him in these skills and possibly Bluff and Sense Motive as well, they are all very useful in the arena. Even a human fighter with a decent intelligence (13 for Combat Expertise
Whose to say that all gladiators use tumble, balance, or perform? Those that do, could easily pick up a level or two of rogue or bard after their level of fighter in order to gain those skills. That is if thats the style they choose to fight in. Better yet, they could just start in those classes before going into a gladiator PrC which could offer those skills as well as other abilities.
This puts the Gladiator further away from the fighter ideal and more like a modern day wrestler. I have a view that a Gladiator is more of a showman than an out and out warrior. I she butchered her opponents in two shakes, the crowd would probaly feel pretty cheated.
I don't think the Gladiator should have the feel of a combat machine, leave that to the (already hard pressed) Fighter.
Also, enough with the argument for change! What do you want to change? How would you change it and why? Try to be at least a little bit constructive. It's easy to critisize, but its a lot harder to create.
I did say I was working on something...just give me a bit more time...
"Also, enough with the argument for change! What do you want to change? How would you change it and why? Try to be at least a little bit constructive. It's easy to critisize, but its a lot harder to create."
I did say I was working on something...just give me a bit more time...
This is what the board is about- constructive and critical arguments that help us form ideas and hammer out better material.
I also think that you are preaching to the choir on this too- check out the Forum Archive and you will see all of the work that those of us here have done, so I think we know a little bit about creating. If you do not want to have people voice their thoughts then do not ask for them.
Not trying to be rude but your post kind of touched a nerve. Just had to throw out my rant- nothing personal
This is what the board is about- constructive and critical arguments that help us form ideas and hammer out better material.
I also think that you are preaching to the choir on this too- check out the Forum Archive and you will see all of the work that those of us here have done, so I think we know a little bit about creating. If you do not want to have people voice their thoughts then do not ask for them.
Not trying to be rude but your post kind of touched a nerve. Just had to throw out my rant- nothing personal
:D he was trying to quote me. That first paragraph was what I said to him :P
Whose to say that all gladiators use tumble, balance, or perform? Those that do, could easily pick up a level or two of rogue or bard after their level of fighter in order to gain those skills. That is if thats the style they choose to fight in. Better yet, they could just start in those classes before going into a gladiator PrC which could offer those skills as well as other abilities.
Thats the whole problem though, many gladiators do use those skills, it's part of Gladiator training so until you got in to the PrC you would have to run a Multiclassed character just to simulate someone who has been trained to be a gladiator from a young age. Besides what level entry are we talking about for this PrC, most can't be entered until level 6, so until then your stuck with only a very approximate build... Player: "Why do I have Trapfinding?"
Anyway it deserves a base class a lot more then the Warmage and some other classes I could mention do
In Athas.org defense though.
1. Its really hard to designed balanced classes. At worst the Gladiator is slightly underpowered vs Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin.
2. There are issues for any fighter type class vs Psions/Spellcasters
Rather than rebuild the class I would suggest seeing if the DM would let you use exotic weapons from other books. The Complete Warrior helped out fighters types alot without breaking them for example. Grab a Jovar from the Planar Handbook. 18-20 crit range greatsword
I'm not saying that gladiator sould not be a core class, but it could just as easily be a PrC.
I've agreed with this for quite some time, the main issue though is that it's too much of a sacred cow in DS to just make it a PrC, so hence why it is a core class.
Some of the PrCs the community has made to go along with the core class help it out some, but I agree that a tweak to the official version has been needed for some time.
What Netherek is doing to it is a step in the right direction IMO.
Gladiator
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills
The gladiator's class skills are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis) and Tumble Tumble (Dex).
Skill points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x4
Skill points at each additionnal level: 4 + Int modifier
This is what the board is about- constructive and critical arguments that help us form ideas and hammer out better material.
I also think that you are preaching to the choir on this too- check out the Forum Archive and you will see all of the work that those of us here have done, so I think we know a little bit about creating. If you do not want to have people voice their thoughts then do not ask for them.
Not trying to be rude but your post kind of touched a nerve. Just had to throw out my rant- nothing personal
I didn't expect a warm welcome into this community.
I know: everybody's a critic. I acknowledge the fact that a lot of people on these kind of boards mostly complain, but don't DO much.
But I would have liked to get a little more understanding and patience. I did say I was coming up with a proposition and I did.
P.S.: Nothing personnal.
I didn't expect a warm welcome into this community.
I know: everybody's a critic. I acknowledge the fact that a lot of people on these kind of boards mostly complain, but don't DO much.
But I would liked to get a little more understanding and patience. I did say I was coming up with a proposition and I did.
P.S.: Nothing personnal.
Don't worry... looks like it was just a slight misunderstanding on Kal's part because of the way you quoted Sage
At a glance I like what you've come up with for a gladiator. I'll have to look it over again in more detail but I'm not a mechanics guy so I probably won't have very much good feedback :P
I didn't expect a warm welcome into this community.
I know: everybody's a critic. I acknowledge the fact that a lot of people on these kind of boards mostly complain, but don't DO much.
But I would liked to get a little more understanding and patience. I did say I was coming up with a proposition and I did.
P.S.: Nothing personnal.
Mike, you will that in this board (darksun one), there are far more less (if not at all) flaming and unconstructive comments.
You have peoples that answers fast, give comments fast and peoples that know a lot about Darksun and 3.5e. So, give the time the forum to accept you and you will see much more in this forum that most of the WotC community forums.
Your DM, with love :D
Don't worry... looks like it was just a slight misunderstanding on Kal's part because of the way you quoted Sage
At a glance I like what you've come up with for a gladiator. I'll have to look it over again in more detail but I'm not a mechanics guy so I probably won't have very much good feedback :P
That's how I am. I am not big mechanic man, but I do like the feel of the class. I am going to have to read it again, but I suggest you to do a nice formatting of your class so we can read it as in the PhB.
That's how I am. I am not big mechanic man, but I do like the feel of the class. I am going to have to read it again, but I suggest you to do a nice formatting of your class so we can read it as in the PhB.
Yes, please clean up the formatting some.
I kinda like where you are going. I still think that if you are going to lower the HD then you need to give them a good reflex save as well, especially since avoiding blows is suppose to be one of their specialties.
Other than that keep up the good work. At most we can mix and match some of the other attempts with this one and get a more suitable finished product.
Sneak attack: as PHB
Comment: The idea is to give some punch to the gladiator. He has seen many type of enemies and the reason he has made it this far is that he knows what hurts…
I was thinking that the gladiator should have a similar ability, but with a different mechanic. Maybe instead of the gladiator having to flank, catch someone flat footed, or otherwise helpless, the sneak attack only worked if the gladiator himself was flanked by two opponents. You could rename it something along the lines of "dire strike" or the like.
I think that they should get a higher damage die for using their unarmed strike- they would have been trained to fight with their bodies as much as with weapons and I think that something like that would reflect said training.
Oh- I would also like to say "Welcome aboard" to the board :D . We do like new people here (after a little salt and saute) and it is always good to hear new ideas.
As for some of your other ideas-
I am not a fan of the d8 HD - I would say that if anything it should only be lowered to a d10.
Skill points- I have never liked the fact that fighters only get 2 skill points (I mean wizards get the same number). If anything- I would make the skill points for a gladiator 4 per level like you have them, along with fighters and then give all wizards 6 - 2 is rediculous for a class that is based upon study.
I will have to look at the gladiator again, but I think your version is going to the "too powerful" side of the spectrum. I would take out the sneak attack, which IMO would do a lot to equal it out.
Here is one comment I have- based off of game play with the gladiator in my group.
I think that they should get a higher damage die for using their unarmed strike- they would have been trained to fight with their bodies as much as with weapons and I think that something like that would reflect said training.
A bit like a monk? I'm cool with the idea. Since the Improved Unarmed Strike already represent the training you are talking about I didn't think of putting more into that...(you almost do the same damage as stabing someone with a knife! lethal damage at that!)
Maybe we could leave the option open as a bonus feat or ability option (Superior Unarmed Strike?)
Oh- I would also like to say "Welcome aboard" to the board :D . We do like new people here (after a little salt and saute) and it is always good to hear new ideas.
As for some of your other ideas-
I am not a fan of the d8 HD - I would say that if anything it should only be lowered to a d10.
Getting him down to a D8 is part of a balancing act...since he's a skilled and dextrous fighter I kind of saw him as a ranger and I saw no reason to see him as a tough-as-nail soldier. Since the D8 is your basic hit die, you can see that the other way around: it kind a gives credit to fighters and barbarians for being really though guys who see real battles.
I will have to look at the gladiator again, but I think your version is going to the "too powerful" side of the spectrum. I would take out the sneak attack, which IMO would do a lot to equal it out.
You must remember that a lot of the abilities I gave him are crowd-dependent. Conditionnal, not automatic. (I still have to work that out.) He get's almost the same abilities as the current Gladiator. A bit more feats, but much more flexibility (closer too pure fighters, but still quite specialized).
The added feats and skills are balanced by the D8, I was talking about.
Armor optimization is not really more powerful than it was, just more useful.
I must agree the Sneak Attack is a bit strong.
Maybe we could work something out for him...maybe a kind of conditionnal sneak attack? Like NytCrawlr suggested. Like the Skirmish ability of Scouts from the Complete Adventurer.
"Dirty fighting": a damage bonus you apply after a feint or when being flanked.
We could event tune it down further by specifying "once per round".
That's how I am. I am not big mechanic man, but I do like the feel of the class. I am going to have to read it again, but I suggest you to do a nice formatting of your class so we can read it as in the PhB.
Aww! quit complaining! You of all people should know that I don't have time for this! :P
......Ok, I'll do it. ;)
Aww! quit complaining! You of all people should know that I don't have time for this! :P
......Ok, I'll do it. ;)
Trust me- the right format will draw more people into reading all of the material instead of skimming- and it looks better. It may be a bit more work on your end but you will get more in the way of feedback IMO.
I must agree the Sneak Attack is a bit strong.
Maybe we could work something out for him...maybe a kind of conditionnal sneak attack? Like NytCrawlr suggested. Like the Skirmish ability of Scouts from the Complete Adventurer.
"Dirty fighting": a damage bonus you apply after a feint or when being flanked.
We could event tune it down further by specifying "once per round".
Ummm...NytCrawlr's suggestion?
Ummm...NytCrawlr's suggestion?
Ish! Sorry about that! My mistake! It was your suggestion Sysane.
I also removed the comments. They explained the rational behind my choices but I admit that they cluttered things a bit. :whatsthis
I'm coming up with a modified version a bit more balanced. It integrates some of your suggestions. ;)
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills
The gladiator's class skills are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill points at 1st level: (6 + Int modifier) x4
Skill points at each additionnal level: 6 + Int modifier
Ish! Sorry about that! My mistake! It was your suggestion Sysane.
Don't worry abour it. It happens
Skill points at each additionnal level: 6 + Int modifier
I agree that the gladiator needs more that 2+Int per level for skill points, but I think 6+ is a little to much IMO. I think 4+Int is more than enough and you could justify in upping the HD to d10 if you drop the good Ref save.
Just my two bits. Otherwise, its coming along pretty well
I agree that the gladiator needs more that 2+Int per level for skill points, but I think 6+ is a little to much IMO. I think 4+Int is more than enough and you could justify in upping the HD to d10 if you drop the good Ref save.
Just my two bits. Otherwise, its coming along pretty well
You are reading my mind!
6+ is a bit much I confess...taking it down to 4+ like I originally proposed, droping the good reflexe save and cranking the HD to D10 was an alternative I was going to propose since a lot of people seem to have a problem with a D8 gladiator.
Like I said my rational was to compare this class to the core ranger or monk (two D8 classes). They've got combat prowess AND skills.
Another alternative could be to keep the D8 and the good reflexe save drop the skills to 4+ and give him a bit more arena guile bonus (to keep his competitive edge in feints versus rogues).
Another possible modification is that a Master of Feints (lvl 15 ability) could feint as a free action instead of a swift action. This is way more powerful...but it's a lvl 15 ability!
Following on Winning the crowd
I thought of adjucating the Winning the crowd ability and the Perform (blood sport) skill like Diplomacy checks.
Let met explain: every opponent in an event would have a starting attitude from the crowd. The crowd could be hostile, unfriendly, indifferent, friendly or helpful, depending on the gladiator's reputation and previous events (example: attitude is one step lower if the previous fights we're really bad) . This is intentionnaly a free-form system and gives a lot of control to the DM, a control that should not be abused because this could frustrate the player a lot. (like any such social skills)
It can and should be ajusted in the interest of drama.
With checks in Perform (blood sport) a gladiator could improve the attitude of the crowd toward him. If the crowd is "helpful" he could use some of his Winning the crowd abilities.
I think this check should be a move equivalent action.
I'm still to determine possible modifiers for this check and relevent DCs for the different Winning the crowd abilities.
I've been reading through this thread and came upon a few things and I totally agree with you that the class is dissatisfying. First I'd like to say, that your idea is good, very good. I looked over this again and saw good reason to change my version of it...
Now, for me a gladiator is a fighting machine! I've been playing a Mul gladiator for 14 years now, I have experience in all editions. In my experience a gladiator can win fights when no-one else can. His knowledge of combat is beyond any other fighting class and should his combat never depend on the crowd or circumstances, for he is trained to fight under any crowd under any circumstances. Although his opponent could get distracted by an unfriendly crowd (that's how I see winning the crowd).
Okey, here's my criticizm...
8HD WHAT?? let's make it 10, 6+int skills is way too much, I was thinking about a minimum str/dex/int to become a gladiator (like in 2nd edition) I like the idea of dirty fighting, but it's a bit much, how about 1d4? why such a good ref save?
now, my take on your gladiator...
1. bonus feat, improved weaponary
2. mercy, power attack
3. unarmed strike, bonus feat
4. winning the crowd, improved feint
5. dirty fighting +1d4, uncanny dodge
6. bonus feat, armor opt (light)
7. insightful feint +2, arena guile +1
8. winning the crowd, close quarter fighting
9. bonus feat, improved uncanny dodge
10. dirty fighting +2d4, armor opt (med), combat insight
11. insightful feint +4, arena guile +2
12. bonus feat, winning the crowd
13. superior weaponary, daze
14. parry, combat insight
15. bonus feat, dirty fighting +3d4
16. winning the crowd
17. master of feints, arena guile +3
18. bonus feat, combat insight
19. personal style, improved parry
20. dirty fighting +4d4, winning the crowd
Improved weaponary: After training day and night with all kinds of weapons, since childhood, the gladiator no longer recieves a -4 on untrained weapons, but is improved by 2.
Winning the crowd: At 4th lvl and every 4 lvls thereafter, the gladiator can win over the crowd to his advantage. His opponent must make a will save dc 10 + lvl, or revieve a -1 penalty on all rolls. This increases to -2 at 8th lvl, -3 at 12th, -4 at 16th and -5 at 20th. Each sv.throw is made against 10 + level of the gladiator.
Dirty fighting At fifth level and every 5 levels thereafter, the gladiator can make a sneak attack. But only under the circumstance that he just made a successful feint against his opponent.
Combat insight: At 10th level and every 5 levels thereafter, the gladiator gains enormous insight for combat which gives him a stacking bonus of +1 AC. This increases by one every 5 lvls.
Superior weaponary: At 13th level the gladiator can use any untrained weapon with a -1 penalty.
ok, I'm pretty sick at the moment, fingers are numb and I'm shivering to the bones, but I just wanted to do something constructive and creative today...I hope this helped in a way...
p.s. by adding a bonus feat every three lvls to the original makes a pretty good class.
Ummm...NytCrawlr's suggestion?
Shhhh, I was able to take over Sysane's mind and plant that suggestion. :D
Shhhh, I was able to take over Sysane's mind and plant that suggestion. :D
Oh, if thats the case. Good job Nyt :P
6+ is a bit much I confess...taking it down to 4+ like I originally proposed, droping the good reflexe save and cranking the HD to D10 was an alternative I was going to propose since a lot of people seem to have a problem with a D8 gladiator.
Heh, I'm absolutely fine with a d8 HD gladiator these days if it means a much better class than the one with a d12 HD, but I know I am probably in the minority.
Another alternative could be to keep the D8 and the good reflexe save drop the skills to 4+ and give him a bit more arena guile bonus (to keep his competitive edge in feints versus rogues).
This is not a bad idea.
Following on Winning the crowd
I thought of adjucating the Winning the crowd ability and the Perform (blood sport) skill like Diplomacy checks.
Let met explain: every opponent in an event would have a starting attitude from the crowd. The crowd could be hostile, unfriendly, indifferent, friendly or helpful, depending on the gladiator's reputation and previous events (example: attitude is one step lower if the previous fights we're really bad) . This is intentionnaly a free-form system and gives a lot of control to the DM, a control that should not be abused because this could frustrate the player a lot. (like any such social skills)
It can and should be ajusted in the interest of drama.
For us that use the reputation rules I would agree that this is the way to go. However, for something that wants to meet the needs of the majority of the community, you are not going to be able to go this route.
Also, the whole winning the crowd ability the way you have it now is still way too wordy. You need to find a way of simplifying that mechanic some.
For us that use the reputation rules I would agree that this is the way to go. However, for something that wants to meet the needs of the majority of the community, you are not going to be able to go this route.
Also, the whole winning the crowd ability the way you have it now is still way too wordy. You need to find a way of simplifying that mechanic some.
I understand...
I'm coming with a mechanics and hopefuly a simple one.
It will be based on attitudes like the diplomacy checks. This mechanics is already in the core rules and is already applied in DS3.5.
Judging starting attitude falls in the lap of the DM just as with any diplomacy checks. So this is nothing new. Just a new twist on an old trick.
I understand...
I'm coming with a mechanics and hopefuly a simple one.
It will be based on attitudes like the diplomacy checks. This mechanics is already in the core rules and is already applied in DS3.5.
Judging starting attitude falls in the lap of the DM just as with any diplomacy checks. So this is nothing new. Just a new twist on an old trick.
These was a Dragon and a Dungeon mag out a while ago that had a huge gladiator theme to them- they had a method of determining a gladiators rank and some other handy material- I will look up the issues and tell you which ones they are when I get home tonight, assuming someone else does not beat me to it.
Hi Banndon, welcome to the boards!
I've been reading through this thread and came upon a few things and I totally agree with you that the class is dissatisfying. First I'd like to say, that your idea is good, very good. I looked over this again and saw good reason to change my version of it...
Now, for me a gladiator is a fighting machine! I've been playing a Mul gladiator for 14 years now, I have experience in all editions. In my experience a gladiator can win fights when no-one else can. His knowledge of combat is beyond any other fighting class and should his combat never depend on the crowd or circumstances, for he is trained to fight under any crowd under any circumstances. Although his opponent could get distracted by an unfriendly crowd (that's how I see winning the crowd).
Not all gladiators are trained...in fact most are just thrown in there with a weapon (or not). I think that most gladiators earn there skills just by surviving in the arena. Some (the really good ones, those that survived) just might get the training that you talk about.
A gladiator that ignores the crowd and that doesn't at least make an little effort to give a good show isn't really a gladiator, he's a fighter.
VS :fight!:8HD WHAT?? let's make it 10, 6+int skills is way too much, I was thinking about a minimum str/dex/int to become a gladiator (like in 2nd edition) I like the idea of dirty fighting, but it's a bit much, how about 1d4?
Like I said I will probably take down the skills to 4+ like I originally proposed.
But I'm sticking to D8. I'm a stuburned one.
:D The Dirty Fighting ability isn't all that strong. Remember that you gain the benefits of a feint only on your next attack that's only one attack because you took a move equivalent action to feint your guy with Improved Feint. I kept the 1d6 to keep things as close to the core rules as possible (sneak attack) and to emulate another variation on the same theme: the skirmish ability of scouts from the Complete Adventurer.
why such a good ref save?
cuz he HAS to be good getting out of the way!
now, my take on your gladiator...
1. bonus feat, improved weaponary
2. mercy, power attack
3. unarmed strike, bonus feat
4. winning the crowd, improved feint
5. dirty fighting +1d4, uncanny dodge
6. bonus feat, armor opt (light)
7. insightful feint +2, arena guile +1
8. winning the crowd, close quarter fighting
9. bonus feat, improved uncanny dodge
10. dirty fighting +2d4, armor opt (med), combat insight
11. insightful feint +4, arena guile +2
12. bonus feat, winning the crowd
13. superior weaponary, daze
14. parry, combat insight
15. bonus feat, dirty fighting +3d4
16. winning the crowd
17. master of feints, arena guile +3
18. bonus feat, combat insight
19. personal style, improved parry
20. dirty fighting +4d4, winning the crowd
Improved weaponary: After training day and night with all kinds of weapons, since childhood, the gladiator no longer recieves a -4 on untrained weapons, but is improved by 2.
Winning the crowd: At 4th lvl and every 4 lvls thereafter, the gladiator can win over the crowd to his advantage. His opponent must make a will save dc 10 + lvl, or revieve a -1 penalty on all rolls. This increases to -2 at 8th lvl, -3 at 12th, -4 at 16th and -5 at 20th. Each sv.throw is made against 10 + level of the gladiator.
Dirty fighting At fifth level and every 5 levels thereafter, the gladiator can make a sneak attack. But only under the circumstance that he just made a successful feint against his opponent.
Combat insight: At 10th level and every 5 levels thereafter, the gladiator gains enormous insight for combat which gives him a stacking bonus of +1 AC. This increases by one every 5 lvls.
Superior weaponary: At 13th level the gladiator can use any untrained weapon with a -1 penalty.
I like your idea of giving him Dodge.
But I don't know what to think about Combat insight ... AC bonus like that is generally something for prestige classes...like the dwarven defender. It's very strong. What kind of bonus is it? dodge, insight, competence?
As for the Winning the crowd variation , it kind looses the flavor I wanted to give the gladiator. It's mainly a matter of style I wanted him to more than just a specialized fighter with feats a few bonuses...well I answere NytCrawlr post on this matter...I'll come with proposal pretty soon.
ok, I'm pretty sick at the moment, fingers are numb and I'm shivering to the bones, but I just wanted to do something constructive and creative today...I hope this helped in a way...
Thanks. Any constructive idea is welcome.
p.s. by adding a bonus feat every three lvls to the original makes a pretty good class.
with all those abilities AND bonus feats every 3 levels...who will want to play fighters?
Rikus for example would have a few levels of the d8 core class and then some gladiator-esque d12 HD PrCs.
It all makes more sense IMO this way. Otherwise we can just say getting thrown into it makes you a fighter-type class and just make gladiator a PrC, which is the argument I used back in the day when this was debated to death before the core rules came out.
This way keeps the sacred cow but makes it more believable for those that are just thrown into it.
These was a Dragon and a Dungeon mag out a while ago that had a huge gladiator theme to them- they had a method of determining a gladiators rank and some other handy material- I will look up the issues and tell you which ones they are when I get home tonight, assuming someone else does not beat me to it.
Ooooooo! I wanna see that!
I don't have a lot of the older material, just the basics and I'm not subcribed to Dragon or Dungeon either. :whatsthis
Anyone as the version of the gladiator I talked about? From an earlier edition of DS3. The one with "bringing the house down"?
Daze: as a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity, the gladiator can make a single all-out attack to daze his opponent (as the spell: no action for the next round, see PHB). He takes a –2 to AC for the entire round. To be successful, the opponent cannot be 2 sizes larger (you must have a good footing) and he must loose 20% of his hp in this single blow.
I like the ability, but seems to be a little odd mechanically. What if you treated it more along the lines of the monks stunning attack and altered it as follows:
Dazing blow: As a full round action the gladiator may attempt to make a dazing blow. He must declare that he is using this ability before making an attack roll(thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). This ability forces a foe damaged by the gladiator's attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10+ 1/2 class level + Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is dazed for 1 round (until just before the gladiators next action). A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC. Constructs, oozes, plants undead, incorporeal creatures and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be dazed.
A gladiator may attempt a dazing blow a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Wisdom modifier.
Simpler still, would be to grant a gladiator with the stunning fist feat the ability to use it with a melee weapon.
Personally I do not see a need for overhauling te whole class- sure some tweeks like Sage said and stuff but IMO a gladiator is not a fighter- and not everything should be equal. Gladiator is a good melee combatant- granted, but the whole idea of the gladiator is that they are also there for the pleasure of the crowd- without the audiance a gladiator IMO is nothing more then a jumped up fighter with a few flashy moves.
I dont knw about you guys but if i were to live in a world like Athas and if i were to be a slave/gladiator who would have to fight for my life each time I'd be in the arena, I'd say I would at least try to become the feared combatant in the Tyr region and not just learning some cool moves to cheer the crowed.
Of course if I'm the rich boy searching for pumpin-adrenalin action and I'd new from the begining that each time I fight in the arena, it's the slave fighting me who will die honorably or quite painfully if he kills me (from the inquisitor templar or sutch). Then I would make a show out of it but otherwise. 97% of all the gladiators should be fearce combatant revaling even the great fighters.
A gladiator compared to a fighter, learns to fight almost 24 hours / day in the arshest way (kill or be killed and you have no choice about it.
learn and learn fast or you'll die )
Gladiators should be better combatants then fighters.
In my opinion at least.
Of course some ''games'' were probably tricked/aranged in advance/etc but to me a gladiator is the street fighter of today in our own world. A real street fighter vs a karate guy and i'll bet for the street fighter any time.
Anyone as the version of the gladiator I talked about? From an earlier edition of DS3. The one with "bringing the house down"?
I was one of the authors that wrote that version, so let me see if I can find an archive of it somewhere.
A gladiator compared to a fighter, learns to fight almost 24 hours / day in the arshest way (kill or be killed and you have no choice about it.
learn and learn fast or you'll die )
Gladiators should be better combatants then fighters.
That's pretty impossible with all the feats out there that the fighter has access to, you would essentially be combining the fighter class with the gladiator class and that's pretty unbalancing.
To me a gladiator is a bit more than just trying to kill his opponent, he *should* be all about killing his opponent in the most entertaining way possible. Being a simple fighter with lots of bonus feats can't always accomplish this very easily.
IMO the 2nd ed Gladiator needs to be reimaged for the latest ruleset, not just converted over, simply because what the gladiator was in 2nd ed can now easily be replaced by the capabilities the fighter has.
Not all gladiators are trained...in fact most are just thrown in there with a weapon (or not). I think that most gladiators earn there skills just by surviving in the arena. Some (the really good ones, those that survived) just might get the training that you talk about.
I have a different opinion on this one, for me all gladiators are trained. Trained to kill.
A gladiator that ignores the crowd and that doesn't at least make an little effort to give a good show isn't really a gladiator, he's a fighter.
That's not what I was saying, what I meant was thst his ability to fight shouldn't depend on the crowd.
Like I said I will probably take down the skills to 4+ like I originally proposed.
But I'm sticking to D8. I'm a stuburned one.
That's good :D still don't agree with you ;)
The Dirty Fighting ability isn't all that strong. Remember that you gain the benefits of a feint only on your next attack that's only one attack because you took a move equivalent action to feint your guy with Improved Feint. I kept the 1d6 to keep things as close to the core rules as possible (sneak attack) and to emulate another variation on the same theme: the skirmish ability of scouts from the Complete Adventurer.
Sounds good, I'll take it ;)
cuz he HAS to be good getting out of the way!
yeah but still...+12 is too much +6 has worked just fine...
I like your idea of giving him Dodge.
But I don't know what to think about Combat insight ... AC bonus like that is generally something for prestige classes...like the dwarven defender. It's very strong. What kind of bonus is it? dodge, insight, competence?
I was thinking insight. Like a race-car driver's insight of his vehicle in all circumstances, a gladiator has insight of his body movement in a fight, you know what I mean?
As for the Winning the crowd variation , it kind looses the flavor I wanted to give the gladiator. It's mainly a matter of style I wanted him to more than just a specialized fighter with feats a few bonuses...well I answere NytCrawlr post on this matter...I'll come with proposal pretty soon.
Huh?
Thanks. Any constructive idea is welcome.
No problem ;)
with all those abilities AND bonus feats every 3 levels...who will want to play fighters?
Excactly ;)
I dont knw about you guys but if i were to live in a world like Athas and if i were to be a slave/gladiator who would have to fight for my life each time I'd be in the arena, I'd say I would at least try to become the feared combatant in the Tyr region and not just learning some cool moves to cheer the crowed.
I'm not saying he's a cheer leader!
Only ONE of the abilities I gave him is related to the crowd! Just one! Something you can take advantage of...or not. Everything else is about getting the edge on your opponent in direct combat. I think we could resume this entire class to this sentence: getting the edge to survive in the arena, no matter what that edge is.
Of course if I'm the rich boy searching for pumpin-adrenalin action and I'd new from the begining that each time I fight in the arena, it's the slave fighting me who will die honorably or quite painfully if he kills me (from the inquisitor templar or sutch). Then I would make a show out of it but otherwise. 97% of all the gladiators should be fearce combatant revaling even the great fighters.
A gladiator compared to a fighter, learns to fight almost 24 hours / day in the arshest way (kill or be killed and you have no choice about it.
learn and learn fast or you'll die )
Gladiators should be better combatants then fighters.
In my opinion at least.
One thing
-You cannot be a better fighter than a fighter, period.
-In D20 fighting prowess is determine by feats and BAB.
It would unbalance the entire system. Getting a feat every 2 levels AND having one every 3 hit dice, a D10 HD and the best BAB, IS my definition of a combat machine! what else do you want?!
Of course some ''games'' were probably tricked/arranged in advance/etc but to me a gladiator is the street fighter of today in our own world. A real street fighter vs a karate guy and i'll bet for the street fighter any time.
Learning skills in a brutal way doesn't garanty you will master them. Sometime (read often) you get out alive just because you are bigger and stronger than the other guy (ex.: muls, half-giant & three-kreens).
In ancient China, soldiers who had conquered an Empire would get there candy ass kicked by reclusive hermits on a mountain top: shaolin monks...who had nothing better to do than pray and train all day long without risking there live every day. I could tell you of many other real world examples.
A fighter is a trained warrior.
A gladiator is slave that has to fight for the entairnement of others... and that I'm trying to convey in this class.
Dark Sun deserves a full base class. It's just too important in the lives of Athasians for just a specialized prestige class. If he receives formal training (because he shows potential), give my gladiator a few fighter levels! If he comes directly from the waste, a particully brutal slave pit or he just has a temper problem give him barbarian levels.
Well that's just my
I like the ability, but seems to be a little odd mechanically. What if you treated it more along the lines of the monks stunning attack and altered it as follows:
Simpler still, would be to grant a gladiator with the stunning fist feat the ability to use it with a melee weapon.
You ARE reading my mind!
:D I was thinking of something like it, but not with a save based on Wis but on Str. I also thought of removing any special conditions since a Fort save is pretty easy for many fighter-types. Limiting the ability a number of times per day is cool too.
I have a different opinion on this one, for me all gladiators are trained. Trained to kill.
A mul is expensive. Training a slave that might die the next fight...I don't think it's standard procedure. I think slavemasters are just happy to get the money after the fight. If they want to reinvest it in training the gladiator...well he better be good! really good, because he has to be a lucrative investment.
Take a Mul from the slave pit. Make him fight. He survives his first fights (cuz he's a mul, he's strong). Master is happy making money. A couple more fights. The mul gets gladiator levels. He's getting the hang of it. Master is happy and want to make more money. Train the mul. The mul get fighter levels. The Mul makes a name for himself in the arena. The crowd loves him (cuz he wins and gives a good show). The muls has learn to fight with style. (More gladiator levels.)
see where I want to go?
That's not what I was saying, what I meant was thst his ability to fight shouldn't depend on the crowd.
Only one of all the abilities I gave him depend on the crowd. Even without it he's a decent fighter.
That's good :D still don't agree with you ;)
Feel free to do.
Sounds good, I'll take it ;)
Don't forget my copyrights ;)
yeah but still...+12 is too much +6 has worked just fine...
I know...it was just to make Grummore happy ;)
But since I'm taking him down to D8, it only make sense to give him a slight edge in saves. (a bit like monks and rangers)
I was thinking insight. Like a race-car driver's insight of his vehicle in all circumstances, a gladiator has insight of his body movement in a fight, you know what I mean?
Yup. Still too strong IMO. This make him a fusion (not a compromise) between a monk and a fighter.
Huh?
post # 41
Excactly ;)
Fighters will and should remain the top dog when it's all fighting and no game.
You ARE reading my mind!
I was thinking of something like it, but not with a save based on Wis but on Str. I also thought of removing any special conditions since a Fort save is pretty easy for many fighter-types. Limiting the ability a number of times per day is cool too.
I've never seen a save based ability which is tied to Str. That maybe unbalanced to do so. I'd check with others on this board before going that route.
Okay- the Gladiator issues are Dragon #303 and Dungeon #96 (both January 2003).
Could we get some kind of digest?
:DI've never seen a save based ability which is tied to Str. That maybe unbalanced to do so. I'd check with others on this board before doing so.
A couple of point in my defense your honor...
First point: it just makes sense. You are hitting the guy!
Second point: This is a high level ability. 9th and more
Lets say the guys is really strong. 30 Str. That's a +10. If the Gladiator is 20th level. That's a Fort DC 30. Though....but for most high level fighter-type it's 50/50 (specially if you're multi-classed with a high Con.
But I'll admit this is bit...touchy.
I'd worry a lot more about multiple uses in consecutive rounds...being dazed in front of a high level fighter for more than one round his being as good as dead. Specially if the guy as power attack!
I promised you feedback, but since you've been getting a lot for other people I decided to wait and see what they said and what you came up with.
Basing the dazing ability on strength really rubs me the wrong way too. I would second the motion to present the idea on other forums to see if anyone can point out why it would be a bad idea. There might be a really good reason why no abilities like that are based on strength.
Actually I'll just go ask about it.. ;) and report back with a link to the responces.
Responces on the Classes Boards
Responces on the CO Boards
Responces on the Classes Boards
From what I'm gathering, the general opinion on those threads is that basing a save DC on Str is a big no-no.
A mul is expensive. Training a slave that might die the next fight...I don't think it standard procedure. I think slavemasters are just happy to get the money after the fight. If they want to reinvest it in training the gladiator...well he better be good! really good, because he has to get a lucrative investment.
Take a Mul from the slave pit. Make him fight. He survives his first fights (cuz he's a mul, he's strong). Master is happy making money. A couple more fights. The mul gets gladiator levels. He's getting the hang of it. Master is happy and want to make more money. Train the mul. The mul get fighter levels. The Mul makes a name for himself in the arena. The crowd loves him (cuz he wins and gives a good show). The muls has learn to fight with style. (More gladiator levels.)
see where I want to go?
Totally, but I see a huge difference between "fresh meat to be butchered in the arena" and someone you see a potential in, you know? Because the one with the potential gets the training and the fresh meat never even get's to be called a gladiator, do you catch my drift?
Only one of all the abilities I gave him depend on the crowd. Even without it he's a decent fighter.
Yeah, I think I overreacted on that one :D but do you know where I was going?
Feel free to do.
Free will is a beautiful thing isn't it?
Don't forget my copyrights ;)
I know...it was just to make Grummore happy ;)
But since I'm taking him down to D8, it only make sense to give him a slight edge in saves. (a bit like monks and rangers)
Yup. Still too strong IMHO. This make him a fusion (not a compromise) between a monk and a fighter.
yeah, maybe :P
post # 41
n'kay
Fighters will and should remain the top dog when it's all fighting and no game.
That's right, it was just my ego talking ;)
From what I'm gathering, the general opinion on those threads is that basing a save DC on Str is a big no-no.
I dont know, but from what I have read there is that it's not impossible but I didnt read a big no-no... They told to be careful. And, since it some example already exist... it's possible.
I dont know, but from what I have read there is that it's not impossible but I didnt read a big no-no... They told to be careful. And, since it some example already exist... it's possible.
True, but ones that effect DC don't seem to be the standard. As someone pointed out in one of those threads "its far easier to pump str than any other ability in the game". Its do to that reason why its not advised to base abilities on Str.
True, but ones that effect DC don't seem to be the standard. As someone pointed out in one of those threads "its far easier to pump str than any other ability in the game". Its do to that reason why its not advised to base abilities on Str.
Well... I'm probably incompetent with mechanic but it is far more powerful to have a high wis, dex or con than strenght at more than some points. Hurt someone with your strenght, he might survive. Cast a spell, if your DC is high on a hold person (example) the guy is not just hurt, he is dead.
Well... I'm probably incompetent with mechanic but it is far more powerful to have a high wis, dex or con than strenght at more than some points. Hurt someone with your strenght, he might survive. Cast a spell, if your DC is high on a hold person (example) the guy is not just hurt, he is dead.
True again, but most classes don't have their stat dependent abilities rely on just one stat. Cleric's need a good Wis for their spells, but also need an above average Chr in order effectively turn dead. The same goes for paladins, except they need a decent Str at the same time. Monks need a good Str as well as Wis for their AC bonus and stunning attacks.
No class ties all its abilities to one stat as illurated by the core classes in the PHB/SRD. I just feel the gladiator should follow suit.
So this is my last take on the gladiator.
Here is what he looks like right about now...(04/05/2006)
I'm 50/50 about leaving or removing the good reflexe save, in this built I removed it because he does have a LOT of abilities...
Gladiator
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills
The gladiator's class skills are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x4
Skill points at each additionnal level: 4 + Int modifier
If the dazing ability is only once per day I think it's OK to base it on strength good idea for a compromise.
I can't see it otherwise. Multiple dazing is just broken, specially for high-level fighters.
Well... I'm probably incompetent with mechanic but it is far more powerful to have a high wis, dex or con than strenght at more than some points. Hurt someone with your strenght, he might survive. Cast a spell, if your DC is high on a hold person (example) the guy is not just hurt, he is dead.
Yup! Unless a character is specially well built, with the right items, at high level spellcasters just steal the show.
...IMHO ;)
True, but ones that effect DC don't seem to be the standard. As someone pointed out in one of those threads "its far easier to pump str than any other ability in the game". Its do to that reason why its not advised to base abilities on Str.
I read the threads carefuly and since there is precedent, and not an unbablanced one, I say: why not.
Dex and Con can be boosted just has easily as Str. I'll admit that a lot of class abilities like the frenzied berzerker, bear warrior or just plain barbarian have Str enhancing abilities that stake with spells, items and between themselves...brrr (shivers in my back). BUT since this is a high level ability, when is the guy going to get it with all those levels of barbarian and/or prestige classes?
Basing it on any mental attribute (even Wis which made a lot of sense) is just saying: "hey though guy! here is a cool ability, but it will be near useless cuz your DC will be too low."
When was the last time you saw a 18 Wis gladiator? Most high level fighter-type or monsters have insanely high Fort saves. Useful against wizards? what wizards?
Well that's the way I see it. Str is risky. I chose it none the less because it's the ability that made the more sense.
Gladiator
Hit Die: d8
I know, why some think d8 would enough and I can surley see the balancing mechanic behind it. But IMHO d8 is too low. The reason why is, that people want to see long and dramatic fights and those "fighters" (I don't mean the class but the people), that are able to take the most hits are most welcomed to see. Gladiators are trained to entertain the folk, that's why I think d10 should be the minimum Hit Die, but I'd prefer d12.
Class Skills
The gladiator's class skills are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis) and Tumble (Dex).
Knowledge (local) as class skill? Why that? Do those guyes in the slave pits know much about legends, personalities, inhabitans, laws, customs or traditions? I don't think so. They have to worry enough to prepare for their next opponent. And those gladiators who travel from city to city to make their fights won't proberlby know that much about a certain city. IMHO this could be left as a cross-class skill.
And what about Climb? Are gladiators trained to climb over walls so they could escape? Do the free gladiators often climb hills or mountains? I think Climb should also be a cross-class skill.
Skill points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier) x4
Skill points at each additionnal level: 4 + Int modifier
This seems ok, although if you strike those two skills, as I suggested 2 would be enough. If you compare it with a druid (14 class skills*) or swashbuckler (12 class skills*) the gladiator has too few class skills that would justify so many skill points. On the other hand if you compare it with a babarian (9 class skills*), cleric (7 class skills*), fighter (7 class skills*), paladin (9 class skills*) or any other class the has 2 skill points per level, the gladiator with his 8 class skills* (without Knowledge (local) and Climb as class skills) would fall in the 2 skill point category.
*I counted Craft, Perform, Profession and Knowledge as one class skill to make the calculations easier. I don't think that this realy matters.
Class Features
All the following are class features of the gladiator.
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Gladiators are proficient with all simple weapons, marital weapons, and one exotic weapon of their choice. They are proficient with light and medium armor, and all shields except for tower shields.
There is one thing that started to bother me a while ago? Why should gladiators be proficient with ranged weapons? They seemed to me more like meele combatants and not like fighters with cross-bows. That's why I would suggest to change the text as follwed:
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Gladiators are proficient with all simple weapons (except projectile weapons like cross-bows), martial weapons (except projectile weapons like bows), and one exotic weapon of their choice. They are proficient with light and medium armor, and all shields except for tower shields.
Unarmed Combat: gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat with no off-hand penalty. (same as the current DS3.5 rules)
Off hand penalty? What does this mean regarding unarmed fighting?
Mercy: -2 instead of –4 to hit to inflict non-lethal damage.
I'd suggest to make it to no penalty, I can't see why this should only be -2.
Winning the Crowd:
As a move action that can provoke attacks of opportunity (taunting is dangerous) :
With a check of Perform (blood sport) you get the crowd to fight on your side. (see new skills) Consecutive success may be needed to activate some abilities. They don’t need to be in consecutive rounds, but in the next minute (within 10 rounds of the first try).
Supporters in the crowd: Minimum of 4 ranks in Perform (blood sport). The crowd must have a least a friendly attitude toward the gladiator. On a successful Perform (blood sport)DC 20 the crowd cheers for you: The gladiator Gains a +1 moral bonus to hit and damage. Last until the end of the fight or if the crowd's attitude drops below "friendly".
Booooo!: You shame your opponent, hurt his feelings and dignity! The crowd's throws rocks and refuse in the arena. He looses his focus.
Minimum of 9 ranks in Perform (blood sport) and 4 in Intimidate. You need 2 consecutive rolls of Perform (blood sport) DC 25 with a "helpful" crowd on your side or and "hostile" crowd on your opponent's side. Used on a single sentient opponent. He suffers a –2 to attack. Last until the crowd changes it attitude...
The Favorite: Your reputation as a gladiator has reached the most obscur places on Athas. And even if they don’t know your name, you look like a professionnal. Your very presence in the arena as an impact on the crowd. You can attempt to reset the crowd’s attitude toward you before the fight begins. The crowd has to see you.
Eternal Glory: Minimum of 15 ranks in Perform (blood sport). A single DC 28 Perform (blood sport) with a "helpful" crowd. The encouragements of the crowd pushes you to the limit. You can only activate this ability when you are at less than 1/3 of your hp. You can keep fighting until you die (-10 hp). You also gain temporary hit point equal to your character level. You keep those temporary hp until the fight ends plus a number of rounds equals to 3 + Constitution modifier.
Bringing the house down! : Minimum of 21 ranks in Perform (blood sport). 3 consecutive rolls of Perform (blood sport) at DC 30 with a "helpful" crowd. You bring the crowd into a frenzy (this may boil down into a riot afterward). Every hit explodes into a roar of the crowd! You get a +2 cumulative damage bonus for every consecutive hit on the same target. Works until you miss…
To be honest, the whole mechanic sounds pretty weird to me. And had (and still have) some problems to understand it. First of all, I'll like to try to make some readable sentences and somewhere I'm going to change some mechanics.
Winning the Crowd: As a move action the gladiator can make a perform (blood sport) check to get the crowd to fight on his side, to support his morale or to demoralize his opponent. Unless otherwise stated, this provokes attacks of opportunity. To use winning the crowd the gladiator has to fight for at least 25 spectators, that are not engaged in the combat (for example, a bard, who uses his bardic music ability, doesn't count as a spectator). Each ability requires a minimum number of ranks in Perform (blood sport) to qualify. In addition, some abilities have special requirements to qualify or to show their effect.
Supporters in the crowd: A gladiator with 4 or more ranks in Perform (blood sport) can get the crowd to support him. The crowd must have a friendly or helpful attitude toward the gladiator. On a successful Perform (blood sport) check against DC 20 the crowd cheers for him. The gladiator gains a +1 moral bonus on his attack and damage rolls. This effect lasts until the end of the fight or until the crowd's attitude toward him is indifferent or worse.
Booooo!: A gladiator with 9 ranks in Perform (blood sport) and 4 ranks in Intimidate can shame his opponent and get the crowd hoot him down. To use this ability the crowd must have a helpful attitude toward the gladiator and a hostile attitude against his oppenent. The gladiator makes two Perform (blood sport) checks as a move action. The first one to get the crowd to attack his opponent with words and objects and the second to insult his opponent. If the gladiator succeeds his first Perform (blood sport) check against DC 25, his opponent suffers a -2 penalty on his attack rolls. The galdiator's opponent can make a will save against the gladiator's second Perform (blood sport) check result to half the penalty. This effect lasts until the crowd's attitude toward the gladiator is no longer helpful or the attitute toward his opponent is no longer hostile.
Eternal Glory: A gladiator with 15 ranks in Perform (blood sport) can get the crowd to encourage him pushing himself to his limits. If the gladiator has less then 1/3 of his total hp, he can make a Perform (blood sport) against DC 28. If he succeeds his check he temporary gains extra hit points equal to his character level (as if his consitution modifier would have increased by one). In addition he can fight without penalties when reduced to 0 or less hit points (he still dies, if his hit points drop to -10 or less). This effect lasts until the end of the fight plus a number of rounds eqaul to 3 + his constitution modifier. A gladiator can use this ability only, if the crowd's attitude toward him is helpfull.
Bringing the house down!: A gladiator with 21 ranks in Perform (blood sport) can get the crowd to cheer for every successful strike. To use this ability the crowd's attitutde toward the gladiator must be helpful. If the gladiator succeeds a DC 30 Perform (blood sport) check and successfully hits his opponent in the same round he has started to bring the house down. This does not provide any benefits yet, but if he succeeds during the next 3 round another DC 30 Perform (blood sport) check and successfully hits the same opponent in one round, the gladitor can try to start a run of attacks that goes along with increasing support of the crowd. If the gladiator succeeds a third DC 30 Perform (blood sport) check and successfully hits the same opponent in one round, during the next 3 rounds after the second successful attempt, the galdiator gains a cumulative +2 circumstance bonus on his damage rolls on every time he hits his opponent. This effect lasts until the gladiator misses one attack or doesn't use at least one of his attacks for this opponent.
I didn't try to make anything for The Favorite, because it seems to me that this would be a general use of Perform (blood sport).
In addition, I'd suggest to add something like: A gladiator can use Winning the Crowd once per day per gladiator level.
Otherwise a mutliclassed bard/gladiator could have the same abilities as a single class gladiator. In addition there should be noted that Perform (blood sport) cannot be used for the bard's bardic music ability.
[b]Improvised Weaponery: A gladiator must do with what he is given if he’s to survive. He has only a –2 instead of a –4 to hit with an improvised weapon or an unfamiliar weapon (exotic or otherwise). In addition, he has a +2 competence bonus to Craft (weaponsmith) and Craft (armorsmith) when optimizing armor or making an improvised armor, shield or weapon.
Are ther any rules how to use Craft to optimize armors, shields , or weapons? Keep it as followed:
Improvised Weaponery: A gladiator has to deal with the equipment he is given. At 3rd level the gladiator suffers only a –2 penalty (instead of a –4) to hit with improvised or unfamiliar weapons (for example exotic weapons).
[b]Bonus feat: Can select from Improved Feint, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder or Exotic Weapon. He can select those feats without qualifying for prerequisites.
The gladiator can also select a tactical feat if he can meet all the prerequisites.
Bonus Feat: At 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level the gladiator can choose on of the following feats as a bonus feat: Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Sunder or Improved Trip. He can select those feats without qualifying for the prerequisites.
Instead of one of those feats, the gladiator can choose to take a tactical feat, but then he has to meet all the prerequisites.
Master of Feints: If the gladiator as the Improved Feint feat he can now feint as a free action.
What happens with this ability, if he doesn't have Improved Feint?
Dazing blow: Once per day, as a standard action that doesn't provokes an attack of opportunity, the gladiator can make a single all-out attack to daze his opponent (opponent becomes dazed) This ability cannot be used on undead, oozes, constructs and the like neither can it be used on an opponent 2 sizes larger (you must have a good footing). On a succesful attack the opponent is allowed a Fort save to resist (DC to resist is 10+ ½ gladiator level + Str modifier). The gladiator has –2 to AC until his next action (successful or not).
Daze is a mind-affecting effect. Although Fortitude seems to be the right save for this ability, creatures who are immun to mind-affecting effects shouldn't be affected by this ability.
Personnal Style: Can ignore a single prerequisite when selecting a tactical feat.
This is an odd ability IMHO. Is there anything like that?
Otherwise it seems ok. I don't think a gladiator needs good reflexes, that's why I would keep the saves as they are.
Here are some rough thoughts, I have about the gladiator:
I think the gladiator should have something like the ranger's combat style ability, but with other weapons (no bows for gladiators!!). IRRC in one issue of the dragon magazine (I forgott which one) there have been alternate weapon styles. Some of those were pretty good and I guess there could be done more.
One thing that bothers me with all "fighter"-class is, that all have bad Will saves. Unfortunatelly IRRC all fear effects can only be countered by a successful Will save. IMHO it's pretty odd, that the greates fighter run at first away when something scary happens to them. That why I think a gladiator (and all other "figher" classes) could use a bonus against fear-effects.
I think a gladiator could use an ability that would him allow to make instead of knowledge check a check (something like bardic knowledge) to identify his opponent and his weaknesses. Somthing like this:
Biest lore (Ex): A gladiator has trained to fight against various creatures and opponents and has learned to estimate his opponent's weaknesses and powers. He may make a special biest lore check with a bonus equal to his gladiator level + his Wisdom modifier to see wether he knows some relevant information about his opponent. This check works like making a knowledge check to gain some information about a creature. A gladiator can use this ability only for abberations, animals, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids and vermin.
Currently, I use athas.org's version of the gladiator with two changes:
1. Everytime when the gladiators gains proficency with an exotic weapon, he may choose to take weapon focus with a weapon he is profcient with, or a weapon style feat (Complete Warrior) instead.
2. As I'm using my partial armor rules, armor optimization is based on zones not on armor type.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to give any experience for balance, because no one of my group plays a gladiator, but IMO this seems ok.
So in my opinion we should give to the gladiator something that, beyond granting him an unic combat hability, increases flavor in this character class. I suggest "WOUNDING" ability: Whenever the gladiator deals damage with a weapon with wich he is proficient, the wound bleeds for 1 point of damage per round thereafter until a Heal Check is made (DC 15), any cure spell is applied, or 5 rounds elapse. Multiple wounds are cumulative, but creatures imunes to critical hits are imune to this effect.
Let me explain my point. The wounding ability is equivalent to weapon speacialization in terms of damage inflicted in the long run, let's see:
FIGHTER SPECIALIZATION DMG BONUS VS. GLADIATOR WOUNDING DMG BONUS (1 ATTACK HIT/ROUND.)
Battle round-----1st-rd.---2nd.-rd.---3rd.-rd.---4th.-rd.---5th.-rd.---TOTAL-DMG BONUS IN 5 RDS.
Fighter----------2-DMG-----2-DMG------2-DMG------2-DMG------2-DMG------10-POINTS OF DAMAGE
Gladiator--------0-DMG-----1-DMG------2-DMG------3-DMG------4-DMG------10-POINTS OF DAMAGE
So the fighter gets a slight advantage in the begging of the fight because he deals damage faster, but as long the combat lasts long the gladiator is better. By the way, gladiator are trained to make their combats last long in the arena, so they make good spectacles.
Another issue: Opposite to weapon specialization, the wounding ability works with any weapon wich the gladiator is proficient, granting him freedom to use a wide selection of weapons in the arena games.
Assuming that wounding ability is equivalent to weapon specialization, I propose the following grid for the gladiator:
Gladiator
=========
BAB +20, Skill Points 2, Good Saves Fortitude. Hit Dice d12.
01 Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
02 Weapon Mastery +1
03 Special Maneuver
04 Wounding, Reputation +1
05 Armor Optimization +1
06 Weapon Mastery +2
07
08 Special Maneuver
09 Reputation +2
10 Armor Optimization +2
11 Weapon Mastery +3
12 Improved Wounding
13 Special Maneuver
14 Reputation +3
15 Armor Optimization +3
16 Weapon Mastery +4
17
18 Special Maneuver
19 Reputation +4
20 Armor Optimization +4, Greater Wounding
Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple: Bonus feats that only work when the gladiator is wearing light or medium armor.
Weapon Mastery +1: At 2nd lvl the gladiator reduces the penalty for fighting with a weapon with wich he is not proficient to -3 instead of -4. In the 6th level the penalty reduces to -2, in the 11th lvl to -1, and at the 16th to 0, he becomes the true master of the weapons.
Special Maneuver: The Gladiator can chooses a signature move. At the 3th level the gladiator can choose one of the following special maneuvers:
+2 on Disarm checks.
+2 on Grapple checks.
+2 on Trip checks.
+2 on Sunder checks.
+2 on Bullrush checks.
+2 on Overrun checks.
Improved Feint.
Choke Hold: When grappling if you pin an opponent for 3 rounds, the opponent must make a FORT save DC 10 + 1/2 gladiator lvl + wis bonus, or become unconscious for 2d4 rds. Creatures with larger size than yours are immune to this effect.
Improved Coup of Grace: Make a coup of Grace as a standart action.
At the 8th, 13th and 18th the gladiator can choose to improved an special maneuver he already has or take a new one, as following:
+2 on Disarm checks. -----> +4 instead of +2. Cannot raise beyond +4.
+2 on Grapple checks. -----> +4 instead of +2. Cannot raise beyond +4.
+2 on Trip checks. -----> +4 instead of +2. Cannot raise beyond +4.
+2 on Sunder checks. -----> +4 instead of +2. Cannot raise beyond +4.
+2 on Bullrush checks. -----> +4 instead of +2. Cannot raise beyond +4.
+2 on Overrun checks. -----> +4 instead of +2. Cannot raise beyond +4.
Improved Feint. -----> Superior Feint: Can use feint as a free action once per round.
Choke Hold. -----> Breakbone Hold: If you pin an opponent for 3 rounds. the opponent must make a FORT save or die.
Imporved Coup of Grace. -----> Superior Coup of Grace: Whenever you reduces an opponent with negative hit points, you can make an coup of grace as a free action.
Wounding: As above. Improved wounding: wounding deals 2 dmg per rd. instead of 1. Greater Wounding: wound deals 3 dmg per rd. instead of 2.
Armor Optimization: Works like a dodge bonus, the gladiator can choose to apply all the bonus against a single opponent or split it between multiple opponents. Gladiator must choose to wich opponent he will apply the bonus on the begging of his round.
Reputation: See d20 rules for reputation. If you don´t use reputation exchange it for a bonus to gladiator's leadership score.
Like I mentionned in my first post (and on another thread), I'm french; French-Quebecer to be exact (yup another one). Composing in english is not has easy for me as it is for most members of this community.
I'll answer Bengeldorn's comments pretty soon...after Easter.
In my humble opinion our current gladiator misses something special, something to make it really original. I mean, all the other warrior classes has an unic combat hability: fighter has specialization, brute has rage, rangar have favored enemies, gladiator has... that's the problem.
So in my opinion we should give to the gladiator something that, beyond granting him an unic combat hability, increases flavor in this character class. I suggest "WOUNDING" ability: Whenever the gladiator deals damage with a weapon with wich he is proficient, the wound bleeds for 1 point of damage per round thereafter until a Heal Check is made (DC 15), any cure spell is applied, or 5 rounds elapse. Multiple wounds are cumulative, but creatures imunes to critical hits are imune to this effect.
Let me explain my point. The wounding ability is equivalent to weapon speacialization in terms of damage inflicted in the long run, let's see:
FIGHTER SPECIALIZATION DMG BONUS VS. GLADIATOR WOUNDING DMG BONUS (1 ATTACK HIT/ROUND.)
Battle round-----1st-rd.---2nd.-rd.---3rd.-rd.---4th.-rd.---5th.-rd.---TOTAL-DMG BONUS IN 5 RDS.
Fighter----------2-DMG-----2-DMG------2-DMG------2-DMG------2-DMG------10-POINTS OF DAMAGE
Gladiator--------0-DMG-----1-DMG------2-DMG------3-DMG------4-DMG------10-POINTS OF DAMAGE
So the fighter gets a slight advantage in the begging of the fight because he deals damage faster, but as long the combat lasts long the gladiator is better. By the way, gladiator are trained to make their combats last long in the arena, so they make good spectacles.
Another issue: Opposite to weapon specialization, the wounding ability works with any weapon wich the gladiator is proficient, granting him freedom to use a wide selection of weapons in the arena games.
Assuming that wounding ability is equivalent to weapon specialization, I propose the following grid for the gladiator:
This is a VERY interesting concept, but IMHO there seems to be a little glitch with the mechanic. My point is that few fighters will specialize in DarkSun. You can loose your goodies and equipment too easily (being enslaved, getting lost in the waste, etc). It would be logical for gladiator to specialize, but that's the fighter's prerogative...
I see weapon specialisation as the feat of a weapon master, a prerequisite for Prestige classes. In itself it isn't very powerful or useful for that matter. Personnaly I would select many other feats over it. With another feat selection you qualify for a prestige class, a tactical feat, a weaponstyle feat, etc... a +2 damage is cool but Combat Brute, Shock Trooper or Leap Attack is better...
With this in mind the wounding ability you talk about (though very interesting in concept) is a little weak IMO.
Weapon Mastery +1: At 2nd lvl the gladiator reduces the penalty for fighting with a weapon with wich he is not proficient to -3 instead of -4. In the 6th level the penalty reduces to -2, in the 11th lvl to -1, and at the 16th to 0, he becomes the true master of the weapons.
Choke Hold: When grappling if you pin an opponent for 3 rounds, the opponent must make a FORT save DC 10 + 1/2 gladiator lvl + wis bonus, or become stunned for 2d4 rds. Creatures with larger size than yours are immune to this effect.
Improved Coup of Grace: Make a coup of Grace as a standart action.
Imporved Coup of Grace. -----> Superior Coup of Grace: Whenever you reduces an opponent with negative hit points, you can make an coup of grace as a free action.
I like those! Can I borrow then? A bit? I would probably make some variations... :D
Armor Optimization: Works like a dodge bonus, the gladiator can choose to apply all the bonus against a single opponent or split it between multiple opponents. Gladiator must choose to wich opponent he will apply the bonus on the begging of his round.
This is a VERY interesting idea that needs to be developped...seems we always think of gladiators has damage dealing machines (I personnally don't think so), but making them expert at getting out of the way is an interesting twist.
You've got good ideas my friend!
Thanks for the words of incentive, but I must confess must of the ideas in presented above are not mine. Most of these abilities were presented in the official books of WOC. Let's see then.
This is a VERY interesting concept, but IMHO there seems to be a little glitch with the mechanic. My point is that few fighters will specialize in DarkSun. You can loose your goodies and equipment too easily (being enslaved, getting lost in the waste, etc). It would be logical for gladiator to specialize, but that's the fighter's prerogative...
[omissis...]
With this in mind the wounding ability you talk about (though very interesting in concept) is a little weak IMO.
First thing I would like to point out is that when trying to balance game mechanics we cannot talk about role-playing issues, such as the fact that in Athas characters will frequently lose their equipment or be enslaved. What matters to us now is just mechanic, strictilly. The gladiator class must be balanced with fighter in a Dark Sun game and any other campaing world where I choose to use it. Role-playing issues stay outside.
That said, I insist that the wounding ability isn´t weak as it appear at first glance. Let's compare Fighter's Weapon Specialization and Gladiator's Wounding in a battle 1-vs-1, from the first to the tenth round:
1) Assuming both warriors score a single hit per round on each other;
2) Assuming that in each hit the fighter get a +2 dmg bonus from specialization;
3) Assuming that in each hit, the gladiator deal a wound that start to bleed in the next round for 1 dmg/rd. during 5 rounds.
FIGHTER SPECIALIZATION DMG BONUS VS. GLADIATOR WOUNDING DMG BONUS (1 ATTACK HIT/ROUND.)
Battle round-----1st-rd.---2nd.-rd.---3rd.-rd.---4th.-rd.---5th.-rd.---TOTAL-DMG BONUS IN 5 RDS.
Fighter----------2-DMG-----2-DMG------2-DMG------2-DMG------2-DMG------10-POINTS OF DAMAGE
Gladiator--------0-DMG-----1-DMG------2-DMG------3-DMG------4-DMG------10-POINTS OF DAMAGE
Battle round-----6th-rd.---7th.-rd.---8th.-rd.---9th.-rd.---10th.-rd.---TOTAL-DMG BONUS IN 5 RDS.
Fighter----------2-DMG-----2-DMG------2-DMG------2-DMG------2-DMG------10-POINTS OF DAMAGE
Gladiator--------5-DMG-----5-DMG------5-DMG------5-DMG------5-DMG------25-POINTS OF DAMAGE
As you see the wounding and weapon specialization are equivalent in power, with weapon specialization being better in short combats, and wounding shinning in long term battles.
In the other hand, for the case these argumments weren´t enough to convice you (thing that I underestand); you can try to substitute the special maneuvers at 2nd, 8th, 11th, and 18th levels in the gladiator grid I showed in my first post, for bonus feats; and at the blank spaces at 7th and 17th levels add special maneuver, as following:
BAB +20, Skill Points 2, Good Saves Fortitude. Hit Dice d12.
01 Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
02 Weapon Mastery +1
03 Bonus Feat
04 Wounding, Reputation +1
05 Armor Optimization +1
06 Weapon Mastery +2
07 Special Maneuver
08 Bonus Feat
09 Reputation +2
10 Armor Optimization +2
11 Weapon Mastery +3
12 Improved Wounding
13 Bonus Feat
14 Reputation +3
15 Armor Optimization +3
16 Weapon Mastery +4
17 Special Maneuver
18 Bonus Feat
19 Reputation +4
20 Armor Optimization +4, Greater Wounding
I like those! Can I borrow then? A bit? I would probably make some variations... :DArmor Optimization: Works like a dodge bonus, the gladiator can choose to apply all the bonus against a single opponent or split it between multiple opponents. Gladiator must choose to wich opponent he will apply the bonus on the begging of his round.
This is a VERY interesting idea that needs to be developped...seems we always think of gladiators has damage dealing machines (I personnally don't think so), but making them expert at getting out of the way is an interesting twist.
You've got good ideas my friend!
As I said before most of these ideas aren´t mine. My suggestion for armor optimization is found in the book comple warrior, on the swashbuckler class, an ability called "dodge bonus" wich ranges from +1 to +4 exactly as I presented in the gladiator above.
The ability "choke hold" you've enjoyed is similar to the Sleeping lock of the Reaping Mauler prestige class also from complete warrior. By the way, there is an error in my previos post, where you read "stunned for 2d4", the correct is "unconsious for 2d4 rounds" (I have already corrected in the post). The ability presented in the Reaping Mauler from complete warrior is just a little bit stronger, because you don´t need to keep the pin for 3 consecutive rounds. Same can be said for the ability "breakbone hold", is similar to the "devasting hold" from the Reaping Mauler.
Weapon Mastery is new, but other people on these boards had already suggested that before.
Just my thoughts, and would like to appologize all for my english and for the tone of my words (if it sounded arrogant or presumptuous wasn´t my intent), I have liked your comments as much as your version of gladiator.
I know, why some think d8 would enough and I can surley see the balancing mechanic behind it. But IMHO d8 is too low. The reason why is, that people want to see long and dramatic fights and those "fighters" (I don't mean the class but the people), that are able to take the most hits are most welcomed to see. Gladiators are trained to entertain the folk, that's why I think d10 should be the minimum Hit Die, but I'd prefer d12.
Making them better at dodging blows would eliminate this need though. Something that I would like to see written into the gladiator more.
An Improved Dodge like bonus, a good Reflex save, Armor Optimization, etc. would help make the gladiator a worthy adversary even if they were just d8 HD.
From there you can make speciliazed gladiator PrCs that are d10 or d12 HD like some of the ones already in the PrC docs that athas.org has done.
I love playing a gladiator, more than any other class, I don't know why but it's one of very few classes that get me in character. So if the official gladiator will be changed to a d8, please...I'm begging you make it worth it. Ok I know I'm no genius in creating classes and I've proved that. But I'm very good at playing the classes other's make :D :P
Armor Optimization: Works like a dodge bonus, the gladiator can choose to apply all the bonus against a single opponent or split it between multiple opponents. Gladiator must choose to wich opponent he will apply the bonus on the begging of his round.
Sorry to take this one out, but this realy bugs me. How can Armor Optimization give you a dodge bonus? I mean you lose your armor bonus vs. touch attacks, but (most of the time) you keep your Dex-Mod. and therefore your Dodge Bonus; and when you are flat-footed you loose you Dex-Bonus (and Dodge Bonus) to AC, but keep your armor bonus. IMHO when you have an ability that's called Armor Optimization, the bonus or benifits it grants should apply to the armor and not something you can choose against one or more opponents. This just doesn't make anny sense to me.
Making them better at dodging blows would eliminate this need though. Something that I would like to see written into the gladiator more.
The people want to see blood. A gladiator can only bleed, when he was hit. I can't imagine a crowd going like this: "GREART! He dodged again! Still no blood, but awesome how he managed to duck this attack....". BUT I can imagine a crowd going "WOW! He has allready taken so many blows and his body is covers with blood, but yet, he is standing and fighting....GO GLADIATOR!!"
Armor Optimization: Works like a dodge bonus, the gladiator can choose to apply all the bonus against a single opponent or split it between multiple opponents. Gladiator must choose to wich opponent he will apply the bonus on the begging of his round.
Sorry to take this one out, but this realy bugs me. How can Armor Optimization give you a dodge bonus? I mean you lose your armor bonus vs. touch attacks, but (most of the time) you keep your Dex-Mod. and therefore your Dodge Bonus; and when you are flat-footed you loose you Dex-Bonus (and Dodge Bonus) to AC, but keep your armor bonus. IMHO when you have an ability that's called Armor Optimization, the bonus or benifits it grants should apply to the armor and not something you can choose against one or more opponents. This just doesn't make anny sense to me.
Bengeldorn,
To ask your question, first of all we have to see what armor optimization was in 2e:
From the original DS2E boxed set (p. 25): "A gladiator learns to optimize his armor when he reaches 5th level. He conditions himself to use his armor to its best advantage, dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield. "
So in the original boxed ARMOR OPTIMIZATION was a kind of dodge indeed.
From the DS2E revised boxed set (p.24): "A gladiator learns to optimize his armor when he reaches 5th level. He learns to move and position armor so it absorbs blows better than it normally would." (p.46): "This proficiency allows a character to use his armor to best advantage against a particular opponent (much like the gladiator special ability). A successful proficiency check in the first round of any combat situation gives a -1 bonus to the character’s Armor Class until that combat comes to an end."
So in the revised boxed set too we note that armor optimization was a defense granted by an active conduct of the gladiator (dodge bonus), rather than some kind of passive defense (armor bonus). Also, as we see on p. 46, the armor optimization proficiency could be applyed to a single opponent much like a dodge bonus.
I think this answers your question.
The people want to see blood. A gladiator can only bleed, when he was hit. I can't imagine a crowd going like this: "GREART! He dodged again! Still no blood, but awesome how he managed to duck this attack....". BUT I can imagine a crowd going "WOW! He has allready taken so many blows and his body is covers with blood, but yet, he is standing and fighting....GO GLADIATOR!!"
I agree with you that people want to see blood. But spetacular dodges and parrys are impressive too (since 2e, by the way). For the blood itself I preffer the wounding ability wich, again, is not of my creation but something that was already presented in the gladiator prestige class from the book sword and fist (weapon specialization should be reserved for fighters only).
As a last issue I would like to note is that the suggestions I've presented above are not an attempt to create a new gladiator for 3e, but just to convert the original gladiator concept from 2e to 3e, keeping most things that do not conflict with the balance required by the 3e systen. The problem I see in most conversions of gladiator already presented for dark sun is that must people are trying to build a "new gladiator" instead of trying ot convert the original one.
The people want to see blood. A gladiator can only bleed, when he was hit. I can't imagine a crowd going like this: "GREART! He dodged again! Still no blood, but awesome how he managed to duck this attack....". BUT I can imagine a crowd going "WOW! He has allready taken so many blows and his body is covers with blood, but yet, he is standing and fighting....GO GLADIATOR!!"
Not everything that fights in the arena will have the gladiator class, so regardless there will always be plenty of blood to see. Doing this also doesn't make the gladiator impossible to hit, just harder to hit, which means eventually you are going to see her blood as well.
Though I like (read: I love) some of your contributions, I wouldn't like this thread to die off in endless comparasion of this and that version of the gladiator. I think the goal of this exercise is to create ONE version of the gladiator class that everybody likes (maybe enough to be integrated in a future version of DS3.5).
With that said, here a few general considerations:
D8 vs D10, D12: In my experience, if you compare mid-level characters (10th or so), a bigger hit die doesn't really makes that big a difference. It's not a major factor in HP, but Constitution is. Just compare 2 characters, one with D8 and the other D10, with average rolls on there hit die, the same constitution score and you'll see for yourself. 10 or 15 HP is the equivalent in damage of maybe one more succeful attack at this level.
So the argument of the long lasting fight depending on HP/HD isn't really strong IMHO. Besides, HP isn't all about your current level of wounds, it's also HOW you take those wounds. Compared to a wizard, a fighter has direct combat experience in taking blows straight in the kisser. With time he gets endurance, he rolls with punchs, a duck a little so that the blades does penetrate has deeply, etc...
Why a gladiator (who lives in a controled environnement) should have a better HD than a fighter (a soldier who sees REAL combat) or a barbarian (who lives with the wild beast in the waste)? This is a Roleplaying argument, my balancing argument still stands: lot of abilities, combat styles, skills and the likes, you've got to compensate elsewhere (like the ranger).
The place of Gladiators in DS: To answer Kelsen on this topic,
First thing I would like to point out is that when trying to balance game mechanics we cannot talk about role-playing issues, such as the fact that in Athas characters will frequently lose their equipment or be enslaved. What matters to us now is just mechanic, strictilly. The gladiator class must be balanced with fighter in a Dark Sun game and any other campaing world where I choose to use it. Role-playing issues stay outside.
I'd like to comment that though I share you're concern to keep the rules as open ended as possible, we're trying to create a class to play in a specific setting and to integrate the flavor the settings gives to gladiators. Gladiator in Eberron or Forgotten Realms are not the same that in Dark Sun, they may have similarities, but hey....I'm not trying to write a base class for Complete Warrior II, just for DS3.5. Besides, we know he's not going to fight with his weapon of choice whenever he wants to, that wouldn't be fun, wouldn't it.
Another important balance point: Gladiators take the place of paladins in Dark Sun. In standard D&D, The full BAB fighter classes are: barbarian, rangers, paladin and fighters. You can't multi-class in all 4 without loosing important abilities because of alignement restriction and this is perfectly fine IMO.
But in DS, you CAN multi-class gladiator/barbarian/fighter/ranger. There are no restrictions. So to keep the cheese out a bit, since the gladiator is basically a specialized fighter, we should take great care not to make him a hulking fighting engine and focus more on the fighter-entertainer theme.
One suggestion I heard discussing this with one of my LG buddies is to give the fighter class in DS a alignement restriction: non-chaotic.
Winning the Crowd: Though it fonctions a bit like a bardic music ability it is in no way a bardic song. And if a Bard wants to use Perform (blood sport) for his bardic music ability....well he can't! Correct me if I'm wrong but the current Dark Sun bard doesn't use magic or bardic music.
The mechanics of this ability seems weird to some people, but in the absence of Reputation scores using the equivalent of the Diplomacy table is the second best thing in judging peoples attitude and how it can influences the fight.
Skills: ahhh....now we arrive at the whole feint vs sense motive cunundrum. The main reason why I gave him 4+ skill points is to make feints easier for him. Giving him the oportunity of taking ranks in bluff, sense motive, perform...and keeping decent/competitive levels in them (event though most fighter-types don't have very big Int scores).
But in the core rules the whole feint mechanics sucks!
to make a feint against an opponent with a decent combat experience (read: a good BAB) is almost pointless. You make a Bluff check against Sense motive+BAB....it's like using the Intimidate skill in combat....pointless.Unless you give somekind of bonus to the Gladiator there isn't going to be succesful feints in the first place. This is why I gave him Sneak Attack at the start instead...more useful all around. Then came Dirty Fighting...useful only if you make a succesful feint...
But looking back giving the gladiator access to good ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive is a little weird...all gladiators would be shrewd negociators and liars!!!
I personnally think we should either patch the feint mechanics with special rules for the gladiator (Arena guile, Dirty Fighting, etc) or integrate the Wounding Mechanics proposed by Kelsen which is more straight forward (need fine tuning though, like limiting it to one wounding per round).
The Armor Optimization dodge bonus is an idea worth digging. Much more interesting than just nullifying armor penalties.
So here's what I'll put in the next version:
-wounding rules
-less skill points (2+), adjustement of arena guile
-good reflex save
-remove dirty fighting
Bengeldorn,
To ask your question, first of all we have to see what armor optimization was in 2e:
From the original DS2E boxed set (p. 25): "A gladiator learns to optimize his armor when he reaches 5th level. He conditions himself to use his armor to its best advantage, dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield. "
So in the original boxed ARMOR OPTIMIZATION was a kind of dodge indeed.
From the DS2E revised boxed set (p.24): "A gladiator learns to optimize his armor when he reaches 5th level. He learns to move and position armor so it absorbs blows better than it normally would." (p.46): "This proficiency allows a character to use his armor to best advantage against a particular opponent (much like the gladiator special ability). A successful proficiency check in the first round of any combat situation gives a -1 bonus to the character’s Armor Class until that combat comes to an end."
So in the revised boxed set too we note that armor optimization was a defense granted by an active conduct of the gladiator (dodge bonus), rather than some kind of passive defense (armor bonus). Also, as we see on p. 46, the armor optimization proficiency could be applyed to a single opponent much like a dodge bonus.
I think this answers your question.
So a gladiator with armor is able to dodge blows better then one without any armor?
This would mean, that a regular armor would instead of constrain the gladiator in his motion sequences support him. If I run some numbers with this, I still remain confused.Gladiator (DEX 18 — no armor): AC 14 (+4 Dex), vs. touch 14, falt-footed 10
Gladiator (DEX 18 — studded leather armor): AC 18 (+4 Dex, +3 armor, +1 dodge*), vs. touch 15, flat-footed 13
*dodge bonus form armor optimization
Now, please explain me agian how can a nonmagical armor provide a gladiator to have a higher AC vs. touch attacks than a gladiator would have without any amror. The actual athas.org's armor optimization makes sense as it is, but yours doesn't make any sense to me.
Don't get me wrong. I'm ok with giving a gladiator dodge bonuses, but please don't call it armor optimization.
Besides all that, you even gave me something that confirms my position.
He learns to move and position armor so it absorbs blows better than it normally would.
:P
One thing regarding HD and fighting for the audience. A good comparsion for me is Boxing. If you take a look at the audience, then you'll notice that they get exiceted when one of the boxer managed to hit his opponent. A boxer, who just dodges blows, mostly doesn't get much support. Also boxer who can stand some punches are more welcomed than those, who fall after three hits.
Besides that, I can't see your arguments:
Not everything that fights in the arena will have the gladiator class, so regardless there will always be plenty of blood to see. Doing this also doesn't make the gladiator impossible to hit, just harder to hit, which means eventually you are going to see her blood as well.
So your argument that gladitor's don't need more hps is that not everybody is a gladiator
[QUOTE=Banndon's Avatar
Banndon]D8 vs D10, D12: In my experience, if you compare mid-level characters (10th or so), a bigger hit die doesn't really makes that big a difference. It's not a major factor in HP, but Constitution is. Just compare 2 characters, one with D8 and the other D10, with average rolls on there hit die, the same constitution score and you'll see for yourself. 10 or 15 HP is the equivalent in damage of maybe one more succeful attack at this level.
So the argument of the long lasting fight depending on HP/HD isn't really strong IMHO. Besides, HP isn't all about your current level of wounds, it's also HOW you take those wounds. Compared to a wizard, a fighter has direct combat experience in taking blows straight in the kisser. With time he gets endurance, he rolls with punchs, a duck a little so that the blades does penetrate has deeply, etc...
Why a gladiator (who lives in a controled environnement) should have a better HD than a fighter (a soldier who sees REAL combat) or a barbarian (who lives with the wild beast in the waste)? This is a Roleplaying argument, my balancing argument still stands: lot of abilities, combat styles, skills and the likes, you've got to compensate elsewhere (like the ranger).
So a gladiator doesn't see real combats? It's all show? They don't have to worry about their lifes? Besides that my expirence showed me, that D12 and D8 do make a difference. In another campaign, I play a babarian 4/fighter 4 with CON 16 and my character can stay longer in combat than our two rangers (both level 9, but I don't know their CON-mod). And I'm not talking about just 2 rounds. Besides that, if a gladiator has a higher HD then he could use his points for other abilities than constitution, as he allready gets the needed hps from his class.
First I'd like too address a general call to keep our focus.
Though I like (read: I love) some of your contributions, I wouldn't like this thread to die off in endless comparasion of this and that version of the gladiator. I think the goal of this exercise is to create ONE version of the gladiator class that everybody likes (maybe enough to be integrated in a future version of DS3.5).
Creating "the ONE" version of the gladiator that everybody likes is an utopia... even athas.org who started to convert the DS2E rules since 2001 couldn´t achieve such a goal. Though I admire your intent, athas.org rarely take seriusly suggestions from outside the bureaus. My humble goal here is just to exchange roleplaying and mechanics experiences to improve my domestic game.
So a gladiator with armor is able to dodge blows better then one without any armor?
Gladiator (DEX 18 — no armor): AC 14 (+4 Dex), vs. touch 14, falt-footed 10
Gladiator (DEX 18 — studded leather armor): AC 18 (+4 Dex, +3 armor, +1 dodge*), vs. touch 15, flat-footed 13
*dodge bonus form armor optimization
Now, please explain me agian how can a nonmagical armor provide a gladiator to have a higher AC vs. touch attacks than a gladiator would have without any amror. The actual athas.org's armor optimization makes sense as it is, but yours doesn't make any sense to me.
Don't get me wrong. I'm ok with giving a gladiator dodge bonuses, but please don't call it armor optimization.
Besides all that, you even gave me something that confirms my position.
He learns to move and position armor so it absorbs blows better than it normally would.
Bengeldorn my friend,
Everything that you writed above is true if you take that armor optmization concept as described in the revised boxed set.
However, if you take the original concept of armor optimization, described in the first boxed set as the gladiator ability to "dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield" (p. 25), you will see that it doens´t contradict my suggestion of giving the gladiator "armor optimization" as a dodge bonus.
And even if you judge I´m wrong (as I might be...), you can take my suggestion as a "tribute" to the second edition original gladiator. Since I have DS old players, it would be very difficult for then to accept that my conversion of the gladiator doesn´t have the original armor optimization or that I substituted it for a "dodge bonus".
Even because, if you give the armor optimization to the gladiator as I've suggested, you keep the orignal bonus progression from 2E, +1 at 5th, +2 at 10th, +3 at 15th and +4 at 20th, what make the conversion very similar to the original (with the only difference that in 2E the bonus could be applyed to every opponent, but in 3E because of balanced issues the bonus has to be limited to a single opponent, as the dodge bonus is).
My humble thoughts...
Creating "the ONE" version of the gladiator that everybody likes is an utopia... even athas.org who started to convert the DS2E rules since 2001 couldn´t achieve such a goal. Though I admire your intent, athas.org rarely take seriusly suggestions from outside the bureaus. My humble goal here is just to exchange roleplaying and mechanics experiences to improve my domestic game.
Bengeldorn my friend,
Everything that you writed above is true if you take that armor optmization concept as described in the revised boxed set.
However, if you take the original concept of armor optimization, described in the first boxed set as the gladiator ability to "dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield" (p. 25), you will see that it doens´t contradict my suggestion of giving the gladiator "armor optimization" as a dodge bonus.
And even if you judge I´m wrong (as I might be...), you can take my suggestion as a "tribute" to the second edition original gladiator. Since I have DS old players, it would be very difficult for then to accept that my conversion of the gladiator doesn´t have the original armor optimization or that I substituted it for a "dodge bonus".
Even because, if you give the armor optimization to the gladiator as I've suggested, you keep the orignal bonus progression from 2E, +1 at 5th, +2 at 10th, +3 at 15th and +4 at 20th, what make the conversion very similar to the original (with the only difference that in 2E the bonus could be applyed to every opponent, but in 3E because of balanced issues the bonus has to be limited to a single opponent, as the dodge bonus is).
My humble thoughts...
OK...I'm not sure how the rules have been in 2nd ed.. It has been realy a long time ago since I played it, and I didn't had the core rules to that time either, so I can't say anything about the mechanics. Was there anything like an AC vs. touch attacks or an flat-footed AC? As I said, I don't know for sure, but IRRC there wasn't. I'll come to that question again back later. First I wan't to analyse what the original boxed DS set says.
He conditions himself to use his armor to its best advantage, dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield. Provided the gladiator is wearing armor, his armor class is reduced by one for every five levels....This benefit does nothing for gladiators who aren't wearing armor.
I had to look up some words, but here is how I think armor optimisation works.
- The gladiator reorganizes his armor parts to be more effectiv and to protect his weak spots (He conditions himself to use his armor to its best advantage...)
- By the way, how the galdiator fastens his armor to his body, he his more able to dodge blows, in addition by moving his body, he makes it hard for his opponents to successfully hit him, as the remaining weak spots are now covered by his motion and placing his armor to protect those spots (...dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield.)
- A gladiator without any armor doesn't get this bonus, because he can only protect his body with armor, he places to the right spots(This benefit does nothing for gladiators who aren't wearing armor.
Now coming back to 3rd ed. mechanics:
There are three types of armor class; Total Armor Class, AC vs. touch attacks, and flat-fotted AC.
What do these ACs say?
Total Armor Class: A number representing a creature's ability to avoid being hit in combat. An opponent's attack roll must equal or exceed the target creature's Armor Class (AC) to hit it. Armor Class = 10 + all modifiers that apply (typically armor bonus, shield bonus, Dexterity modifier, and size modifier).
Flat-Footed AC: Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
AC vs. Touch Attacks: The glossary hasn't in it by itself but you can see what it is when looking at touch attacks: An attack in which the attacker must connect with an opponent but does not need to penetrate armor. Touch attacks may be either melee or ranged. The target's armor bonus, shield bonus, and natural armor bonus (including any enhancement bonuses to those values) do not apply to AC against a touch attack.
So far so god, I guess, now let's see what dodge bonus, armor bonus and shield bonus means:
Dodge Bonus: A bonus to Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have (for instance, you lose any dodge bonuses to AC when you're flat-footed). Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.
Armor Bonus: A bonus to Armor Class granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses. Magic armor typically grants an enhancement bonus to the armor's armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the armor's overall bonus. An armor bonus granted by a spell or magic item typically takes the form of an invisible, tangible field of force around the recipient. An armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armor bonuses granted by force effects (such as the mage armor spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks, such as that of a shadow.
Shield Bonus: A bonus to Armor Class granted by a shield or by a spell or magic effect that mimics a shield. Shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other shield bonuses. A magic shield typically grants an enhancement bonus to the shield's shield bonus, which has the effect of increasing the shield's overall bonus to AC. A shield bonus granted by a spell or magic item typically takes the form of an invisible, tangible field of force that protects the recipient. A shield bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
So now, we have an ability that is called armor optimization. IMO the name implies that what this ability does is tied to armor a character is wearing. As I tried to show you armor bonus and dodge bonus apply to different situations. IMO means that, that those two have nothing in commen except providing a bonus to AC. Now coming back to the question I asked in the begining: Is there anything like AC vs. touch attacks and flat-footed AC? I can't answer this question, because of the reasons I gave above, but expect that there haven't been. And I guess there also hasn't been anything that's called dodge bonus.
If we are trying to make an armor optimization ability for 3rd ed (or better v3.5) than we have to keep mechanics and flavour in mind. mechanically it make IMHO no sense that an ability, which is called armor optimization, should provide a dodge bonus to AC. A character who has is armor optimized wouldn't be better vs. touch attacks than a charcter who wears his armor normally. All the opponent needs is to touch him. So what kind of bonus could armor optimisation grant? My best guess would be a circumstance bonus to the armor bonus, because the circumstance that a character has optimized his amror provides him the bonus. This way this would all be in line with the mechanics and the flavour. So here you go, I offert an alternative that would make sense and wouldn't change anything of the flavour. It also would stack with other bonuses, as circumstance bonuses stack if they come from different circumstances.
So your argument that gladitor's don't need more hps is that not everybody is a gladiator
Nope, just saying if we give them what I proposed you would still see blood.
Like I said previously, what I proposed does not make them impossible to hit, just harder to hit and the fans will still get their blood.
CThough I admire your intent, athas.org rarely take seriusly suggestions from outside the bureaus.
Hmmm, guess I was just born inside the monster bureau then...
Never mind that some of the more recent additions to athas.org (Penn, Xlorep, Elonarc) etc. were very fans like you that just kept persisting and had good ideas as well and that was what made us listen to them more and eventually bring them into the bureaus.
Just because we don't like any of your ideas doesn't mean we never listen to the community. Hell most of Kal's works I like and if he keeps it up maybe he will be in bureau some day as well.
Until then, knock off the rhetoric and keep showing us the ideas you have and maybe we will start listening to you more. Respect is earned, not given out like candy.
Sorry to derail from the thread, but I don't put up with this sort of nonsense much these days.
To tell you guys the truth I will never, play a gladiator with d8 HD. It just sucks. Mainly because it robs me the possibility to roll a 10 or a 12 every time i gain a level, I look more forward to throwing a d10 or a d12 then a d8. Keep the d12 (d10 min) and the guys who truly love playing a gladiator will be happy. I would rather play the current official gladiator than this version of a "gladiator". This is just my opinion, I'm not trying to offend anyone, I just find it crap.
Rolling for your HD this is almost quaint...:rolleye2: ;)
Just teasing, many RPGA campaings use average rolls to calculate HP. This is much fairer. It's more representative of your chosen classes and your Constitution score. I know the feeling you get when you roll a 12 on that D12, but think of an equal propability: you roll a 1. Now THAT sucks.
Why should you only get 1 hp when you fought like a devil in holy water to level-up? Seems unfair and unrealistic isn't it? I know this is not the way things work right now, but it put things in perspective.
The average roll (rounded up) for a D4 is 3, D6 is 4, D8 is 5, D10 is 6, D12 is 7. Basically, half maximum roll plus one.
You can keep playing the current gladiator if you want to. I'm not on a mission to convert anyone to my ideas. I'm here to exange and build. Besides, the current D12 gladiator would get his candy ass kicked by a D10 fighter or D8 ranger 2 times out of 3. Frankly, he's going to NEED his D12.
I might just put him back to D10, but I'll see if this is balanced in comparaison to the abilities he gets.
P.S.: On a side note. Though I admit saying that the current DS3.5 version of the gladiator is a bit crappy (see post #1). I would like extend my apologies the author, I respect your work and the time you put in it. Though this isn't a version I'm happy with, at least someone DID IT. Same goes for all athas.org and the DS3.5.
The point I'm trying to make is that it is very easy to write "IMO or IMHO, this or that sucks... not trying to offend anyone, but that's crap." Writing those polite formulas isn't very constructive...and frankly it doesn't excuse rudeness.
I'm guilty: I used those formulas myself, but I'm a changed man now.
No hard feelings Master Ivan?
Bengeldorn my friend,
Everything that you writed above is true if you take that armor optmization concept as described in the revised boxed set.
However, if you take the original concept of armor optimization, described in the first boxed set as the gladiator ability to "dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield" (p. 25), you will see that it doens´t contradict my suggestion of giving the gladiator "armor optimization" as a dodge bonus.
And even if you judge I´m wrong (as I might be...), you can take my suggestion as a "tribute" to the second edition original gladiator. Since I have DS old players, it would be very difficult for then to accept that my conversion of the gladiator doesn´t have the original armor optimization or that I substituted it for a "dodge bonus".
Even because, if you give the armor optimization to the gladiator as I've suggested, you keep the orignal bonus progression from 2E, +1 at 5th, +2 at 10th, +3 at 15th and +4 at 20th, what make the conversion very similar to the original (with the only difference that in 2E the bonus could be applyed to every opponent, but in 3E because of balanced issues the bonus has to be limited to a single opponent, as the dodge bonus is).
My humble thoughts...
My dear Kelsen and Bengeldorn...why not just call it a competence bonus to AC instead of a dodge bonus? And he could still distribute this "competence pool" to different opponents.
Rolling for your HD this is almost quaint...:rolleye2: ;)
Just teasing, many RPGA campaings use average rolls to calculate HP. This is much fairer. It's more representative of your chosen classes and your Constitution score. I know the feeling you get when you roll a 12 on that D12, but think of an equal propability: you roll a 1. Now THAT sucks.
Why should you only get 1 hp when you fought like a devil in holy water to level-up? Seems unfair and unrealistic isn't it? I know this is not the way things work right now, but it put things in perspective.
The average roll (rounded up) for a D4 is 3, D6 is 4, D8 is 5, D10 is 6, D12 is 7. Basically, half maximum roll plus one.
You can keep playing the current gladiator if you want to. I'm not on a mission to convert anyone to my ideas. I'm here to exange and build. Besides, the current D12 gladiator would get his candy ass kicked by a D10 fighter or D8 ranger 2 times out of 3. Frankly, he's going to NEED his D12.
I might just put him back to D10, but I'll see if this is balanced in comparaison to the abilities he gets.
P.S.: On a side note. Though I admit saying that the current DS3.5 version of the gladiator is a bit crappy (see post #1). I would like extend my apologies the author, I respect your work and the time you put in it. Though this isn't a version I'm happy with, at least someone DID IT. Same goes for all athas.org and the DS3.5.
The point I'm trying to make is that it is very easy to write "IMO or IMHO, this or that sucks... not trying to offend anyone, but that's crap." Writing those polite formulas isn't very constructive...and frankly it doesn't excuse rudeness.
I'm guilty: I used those formulas myself, but I'm a changed man now.
No hard feelings Master Ivan?
Banndon my friend, there are no and never will be any hard feelings. I totally agree that the easiest thing in the world is to say "IMHO what you are doing sucks. (period)" :D that's one of few things I am actually very, very good at. And I'm really sorry if I offended you in any way or stepped on your toes. I will try and behave myself in the future and give constructive feedback instead of what I've been doing.
Now, to tell you the truth I've totally lost track of the current argument :P but you were talking about changing the HD for your version of the gladiator. Have you reached a conclusion of your version? If so I really would like to see it and give you some constructive feedback ;) if you like...
Again, there are no hard feelings. Keep up the good work.
So a gladiator doesn't see real combats? It's all show? They don't have to worry about their lifes? Besides that my expirence showed me, that D12 and D8 do make a difference. In another campaign, I play a babarian 4/fighter 4 with CON 16 and my character can stay longer in combat than our two rangers (both level 9, but I don't know their CON-mod). And I'm not talking about just 2 rounds. Besides that, if a gladiator has a higher HD then he could use his points for other abilities than constitution, as he allready gets the needed hps from his class.
average HD rolls for you: (4x7) + (4x6) = 52
average HD rolls for them: (9x5) = 45
that's a 7 hp diffence from classes, lets make it 12 when you gain another level. From a monster or fighter of your APL that's about 1 successful attack.... maybe 2. That's easy since AC is pretty low in DS.
One more blow isn't a better show.
BUT lets see how Constitution influences this equation:
Barbarians have rage and then for, bonus HP. Con 16 is pretty decent. I doubt your ranger friends have has much. Just for comparaison, lets suppose they have 14. 2x9 = 18 bonus hp.
3x8 = 24 bonus hp! 6 more! 9 when you'll catch up in levels.
This is just to demonstrate that a high constitution score makes a lot difference!
I'm not saying HD doesn't have any importance but let's not make it the only important class feature!
To answer your question: yes, gladiator don't take the same risks has fighters. When he is down, someone is there to pick him up. Not all fights are to the death. It's entertainment, a VERY dangerous form entertainment. It's not the death or blood that's really, entertaining it's the fight itself. You can check historical references, gladiators in ancient Rome were rarely killed in there first fights...
I like your boxing analogy. Boxers get hit....A LOT. But not all those punches will hurt enough to put the guy on his way down. Most are just glancing hits (dodge AC or natural armor?). A boxing match can be very long (because the guys are real hard ass), but it can still be VERY dull. I personnally find that most short matches are more spectacular. Same goes with ultimate-fighting.
Like in 2nd edition....? Like with improved critical, but better, because he's a gladiator and really studies both his armor and weapon, to optimize them to their ultimate....erm usage? (I'm not sure if that's the word I was looking for, I just got so excited :D )
I don't know I'm just trying to throw something in here...
actually I'm going to work on that...I'll see you guys tomorrow, going to sleep....
P.S.: On a side note. Though I admit saying that the current DS3.5 version of the gladiator is a bit crappy (see post #1). I would like extend my apologies the author, I respect your work and the time you put in it. Though this isn't a version I'm happy with, at least someone DID IT. Same goes for all athas.org and the DS3.5.
Heh, since I was one of the authors of the somewhat current version, and also think we could have done better, no offense taken (because frankly we can do better).
I'm just hoping the rest of athas.org (or at least the classes guys) can see why it needs to be updated, whether it's your's or someone else's version.
There are no bonus feats but there is a "novelty": combat styles.
Special thanks to Kelsen for his wonderful ideas!
Gladiator
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills
The gladiator's class skills are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill points at 1st level: (2 + Int modifier) x4
Skill points at each additionnal level: 2 + Int modifier
I still think they should have a good Reflex save, but you're probably going to have to scale a few things down or get rid of something to give it to them now.
All in all it's getting closer, but I think you were better off sticking with a d8 HD and a good Reflex save.
I'll continue to look over it more throughly to see if anything else sticks out at me.
More later.
The gladiator need never worry anout having to swing an unfamiliar weapon in a pinch; for a gladiator there is no such thing as an unfamiliar weapon. If nothing designed specifically as a weapon is availiable, he can make one from his surroundings.
Gladiators never suffer non-proficiency when picking up a weapon. Even when the gladiator has never seen a weapon of it's like, he can easily fathom it's purpose and the way it is used - just in time to eliminat his foes. Unlike others, the gladiator is trained extensively in the understanding in weapons and his body's capabilities.
Indeed, the gladiator's ability with weapons is such that he can specialize in more than one weapon at 1st level. Gladiators may specialize in as many weapons as their available weapon proficiencies allow. Whenever the gladiator gains enough proficiencies to qualify for another weapon specialization, he may take it. When trying to gain new weapon specialization, the gladiator must pay the full cost for his weapon specialization; that is, he must pay both the initial slot for proficiency in that weapon, as well as additional slots required to specialize.
This tells me that from the beginning, the gladiator is supposed to be able to use any type of weapon, whether it is a simple weapon or an exotic weapon. So why the restriction to one exotic weapon? Why not proficient with all weapons? Just a thought...
These are just a few thoughts I'm getting while reading through the gladiator's handbook.
OK...I'm not sure how the rules have been in 2nd ed.. It has been realy a long time ago since I played it, and I didn't had the core rules to that time either, so I can't say anything about the mechanics. Was there anything like an AC vs. touch attacks or an flat-footed AC? As I said, I don't know for sure, but IRRC there wasn't. I'll come to that question again back later. First I wan't to analyse what the original boxed DS set says.
He conditions himself to use his armor to its best advantage, dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield. Provided the gladiator is wearing armor, his armor class is reduced by one for every five levels....This benefit does nothing for gladiators who aren't wearing armor.
I had to look up some words, but here is how I think armor optimisation works.
- The gladiator reorganizes his armor parts to be more effectiv and to protect his weak spots (He conditions himself to use his armor to its best advantage...)
- By the way, how the galdiator fastens his armor to his body, he his more able to dodge blows, in addition by moving his body, he makes it hard for his opponents to successfully hit him, as the remaining weak spots are now covered by his motion and placing his armor to protect those spots (...dodging and moving his body in such a way that opponents are confounded by his armor and shield.)
- A gladiator without any armor doesn't get this bonus, because he can only protect his body with armor, he places to the right spots(This benefit does nothing for gladiators who aren't wearing armor.
Now coming back to 3rd ed. mechanics:
There are three types of armor class; Total Armor Class, AC vs. touch attacks, and flat-fotted AC.
What do these ACs say?
Total Armor Class: A number representing a creature's ability to avoid being hit in combat. An opponent's attack roll must equal or exceed the target creature's Armor Class (AC) to hit it. Armor Class = 10 + all modifiers that apply (typically armor bonus, shield bonus, Dexterity modifier, and size modifier).
Flat-Footed AC: Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their first turns in the initiative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
AC vs. Touch Attacks: The glossary hasn't in it by itself but you can see what it is when looking at touch attacks: An attack in which the attacker must connect with an opponent but does not need to penetrate armor. Touch attacks may be either melee or ranged. The target's armor bonus, shield bonus, and natural armor bonus (including any enhancement bonuses to those values) do not apply to AC against a touch attack.
So far so god, I guess, now let's see what dodge bonus, armor bonus and shield bonus means:
Dodge Bonus: A bonus to Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have (for instance, you lose any dodge bonuses to AC when you're flat-footed). Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.
Armor Bonus: A bonus to Armor Class granted by armor or by a spell or magical effect that mimics armor. Armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with natural armor bonuses) except other armor bonuses. Magic armor typically grants an enhancement bonus to the armor's armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the armor's overall bonus. An armor bonus granted by a spell or magic item typically takes the form of an invisible, tangible field of force around the recipient. An armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks, except for armor bonuses granted by force effects (such as the mage armor spell) which apply against incorporeal touch attacks, such as that of a shadow.
Shield Bonus: A bonus to Armor Class granted by a shield or by a spell or magic effect that mimics a shield. Shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other shield bonuses. A magic shield typically grants an enhancement bonus to the shield's shield bonus, which has the effect of increasing the shield's overall bonus to AC. A shield bonus granted by a spell or magic item typically takes the form of an invisible, tangible field of force that protects the recipient. A shield bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
So now, we have an ability that is called armor optimization. IMO the name implies that what this ability does is tied to armor a character is wearing. As I tried to show you armor bonus and dodge bonus apply to different situations. IMO means that, that those two have nothing in commen except providing a bonus to AC. Now coming back to the question I asked in the begining: Is there anything like AC vs. touch attacks and flat-footed AC? I can't answer this question, because of the reasons I gave above, but expect that there haven't been. And I guess there also hasn't been anything that's called dodge bonus.
If we are trying to make an armor optimization ability for 3rd ed (or better v3.5) than we have to keep mechanics and flavour in mind. mechanically it make IMHO no sense that an ability, which is called armor optimization, should provide a dodge bonus to AC. A character who has is armor optimized wouldn't be better vs. touch attacks than a charcter who wears his armor normally. All the opponent needs is to touch him. So what kind of bonus could armor optimisation grant? My best guess would be a circumstance bonus to the armor bonus, because the circumstance that a character has optimized his amror provides him the bonus. This way this would all be in line with the mechanics and the flavour. So here you go, I offert an alternative that would make sense and wouldn't change anything of the flavour. It also would stack with other bonuses, as circumstance bonuses stack if they come from different circumstances.
Bengeldorn my friend, for the last time I dare to disagree of you for following reasons:
1st. In my view armor optimization is not a passive defense like armor or shield bonus. In fact, armor optimization, as the old books tell us, is an ACTIVE DEFENSE, that is, the ability by wich gladiator learns to move his body and position the right part of his armor, in the right moment before receiving a blow, in such a way that his armor deflects the blow better than it normally would (so instead absorbing the blow's full strength the armor deflects it).
2nd. So assuming that armor optimization is an ACTIVE DEFENSE as I described above (and not a passive defense as you say), we must agree that flat-footed characters can´t benefit from armor optimization until their first reaction in the iniciative cycle. Same happens with Dexterity and Dodge bonuses to armor class.
3rd. In the other hand, we CANNOT say that the armor optimization, as the ACTIVE DEFENSE I described above, can improve a character's armor class against touch attacks since by using armor optimization a character is not trying to dodge or avoid blows, but just trying to position his armor in such a way that it DEFLECTS blows better than it normally would. So we have the need of MOVE, we have the TOUCH, but we don´t have the HIT.
4th. That means that we have a GAP IN THE RULES, I mean, none of the bonuses we already know works perfectly with the AC bonus granted by armor optimization, since you lose it if flat-footed but simultaneously it doesn´t improve your AC against touch attacks.
6th. The circunstance bonus to armor class that Bengeldorn has suggested wouldn´t be suitable too, beacause it would improve the gladiator's AC against EVERY opponent in combat, granting the gladiator a much better Armor Class than the other warrior classes. A dodge-like bonus wich is applyed to a SINGLE opponent is much more balanced and suitable indeed, since it has been already tested and aproved in a core class, wich is the SWASHBUCKLER from the complete warrior.
7th. So you have two options: (i) give the gladiator the ability called "dodge bonus" as it is in the complete warrior; (ii) or keep the name "armor optimization" as a tribute to the SECOND EDITION (also because of the gap in the rules I´ve noted above) and make it work like a progressive dodge bonus (as it is in the complete warrior), that the gladiator can split between different enemies, improves his armor class against touch attacks, but is lost if flat-footed.
My last thoughts...
Bengeldorn my friend, for the last time I dare to disagree of you for following reasons:
1st. In my view armor optimization is not a passive defense like armor or shield bonus. In fact, armor optimization, as the old books tell us, is an ACTIVE DEFENSE, that is, the ability by wich gladiator learns to move his body and position the right part of his armor, in the right moment before receiving a blow, in such a way that his armor deflects the blow better than it normally would (so instead absorbing the blow's full strength the armor deflects it).
2nd. So assuming that armor optimization is an ACTIVE DEFENSE as I described above (and not a passive defense as you say), we must agree that flat-footed characters can´t benefit from armor optimization until their first reaction in the iniciative cycle. Same happens with Dexterity and Dodge bonuses to armor class.
3rd. In the other hand, we CANNOT say that the armor optimization, as the ACTIVE DEFENSE I described above, can improve a character's armor class against touch attacks since by using armor optimization a character is not trying to dodge or avoid blows, but just trying to position his armor in such a way that it DEFLECTS blows better than it normally would. So we have the need of MOVE, we have the TOUCH, but we don´t have the HIT.
4th. That means that we have a GAP IN THE RULES, I mean, none of the bonuses we already know works perfectly with the AC bonus granted by armor optimization, since you lose it if flat-footed but simultaneously it doesn´t improve your AC against touch attacks.
6th. The circunstance bonus to armor class that Bengeldorn has suggested wouldn´t be suitable too, beacause it would improve the gladiator's AC against EVERY opponent in combat, granting the gladiator a much better Armor Class than the other warrior classes. A dodge-like bonus wich is applyed to a SINGLE opponent is much more balanced and suitable indeed, since it has been already tested and aproved in a core class, wich is the SWASHBUCKLER from the complete warrior.
7th. So you have two options: (i) give the gladiator the ability called "dodge bonus" as it is in the complete warrior; (ii) or keep the name "armor optimization" as a tribute to the SECOND EDITION (also because of the gap in the rules I´ve noted above) and make it work like a progressive dodge bonus (as it is in the complete warrior), that the gladiator can split between different enemies, improves his armor class against touch attacks, but is lost if flat-footed.
My last thoughts...
So now you are comparing the Shwashbuckler's Dodge Bonus with the Galdiator's Armor Optimization? Intersting.
Besides that it seems that you are very fixed on your position. I told you, I have absolutly no problem giving the gladiator a dodge bonus, but as I showed you, it doesn't make sense to name this bonus Armor Optimization. I tried to provide an alternative, but this doesn't seem to work for you neither. Too bad. If you would have taken a look of the opportunity that circumstance bonuses provide, than you could have seen, that you can descibe the cricumstances when it applies to. You could say, that a gladiator recieve the bonus only when he is wearing an armor or a shield. You could say, that he looses the bonus when he is denied his DEX-Bonus to AC. You could even say, that this bonus only applies to only one opponent. And you could say, that with increasing levels the total bonus increases, and that the gladiator can choose how much from this bonus would applies to each opponent. The best part is, you can mix it all together, just define the circumstances and you'll have what you need.
This tells me that from the beginning, the gladiator is supposed to be able to use any type of weapon, whether it is a simple weapon or an exotic weapon. So why the restriction to one exotic weapon? Why not proficient with all weapons? Just a thought...
I've only recently started looking into DS again lately, so maybe someone's given a reason for this a long time ago that I don't know of, but I'm also curious. One of the neater things about 2E gladiators was the full proficiency in everything. Is there a reason this has been changed? I think if you're not going to give them proficiency in everything then you definitely need a "Weapon Intuition" kind of thing that reduces the non-profiency penalty; it could even go down over time: -3 at first, -2 at 7th, -1 at 12th, 0 at 18th.
Also, maybe I'm crazy, but one of the other things I liked about 2E gladiators was the wide range of possibilities provided for gladiators in the form of kits in the CGH. I'm certainly not advocating kits, as they were a messy mechanic and have no place in third edition, but is there a reason no one's examined the possibilities of giving gladiators a "Fighting Style" class feature akin to Rangers. You could then easily come up with a variety of paths/styles for different types of gladiators, giving them a selection of bonus feats and perhaps other minor benefits.
(PS: I'd have Armor Optimization provide a "competence" bonus to AC.)
I've only recently started looking into DS again lately, so maybe someone's given a reason for this a long time ago that I don't know of, but I'm also curious. One of the neater things about 2E gladiators was the full proficiency in everything. Is there a reason this has been changed? I think if you're not going to give them proficiency in everything then you definitely need a "Weapon Intuition" kind of thing that reduces the non-profiency penalty; it could even go down over time: -3 at first, -2 at 7th, -1 at 12th, 0 at 18th.
Also, maybe I'm crazy, but one of the other things I liked about 2E gladiators was the wide range of possibilities provided for gladiators in the form of kits in the CGH. I'm certainly not advocating kits, as they were a messy mechanic and have no place in third edition, but is there a reason no one's examined the possibilities of giving gladiators a "Fighting Style" class feature akin to Rangers. You could then easily come up with a variety of paths/styles for different types of gladiators, giving them a selection of bonus feats and perhaps other minor benefits.
(PS: I'd have Armor Optimization provide a "competence" bonus to AC.)
I have to say that I agree with you. There should be gladiator fighting styles...could be a fun project...
...and your weapon intuition sounds good, because like the book said, they are proficient with any weapon and if there is no weapon, they can make one from their surroundings.
I've always wondered why armor opt. didn't give competence bonus...
Besides that it seems that you are very fixed on your position. I told you, I have absolutly no problem giving the gladiator a dodge bonus, but as I showed you, it doesn't make sense to name this bonus Armor Optimization. I tried to provide an alternative, but this doesn't seem to work for you neither. Too bad. If you would have taken a look of the opportunity that circumstance bonuses provide, than you could have seen, that you can descibe the cricumstances when it applies to. You could say, that a gladiator recieve the bonus only when he is wearing an armor or a shield. You could say, that he looses the bonus when he is denied his DEX-Bonus to AC. You could even say, that this bonus only applies to only one opponent. And you could say, that with increasing levels the total bonus increases, and that the gladiator can choose how much from this bonus would applies to each opponent. The best part is, you can mix it all together, just define the circumstances and you'll have what you need.
Through I admit that a dodge bonus doesn´t fit perfectly to armor optimization, a circunstancial bonus isn´t a 100% satisfactory solution too, since circunstancial bonuses should be reserved to special or excepcional situations and not for an inherent ability wich a character uses in a regular basis in combat.
If the competence bonus to armor class suggested by Banndon, Master Ivan and Mystic Theurge could be limited to a single opponent (balance issues), it would be IMO the best solution.
If the competence bonus to armor class suggested by Banndon, Master Ivan and Mystic Theurge could be limited to a single opponent (balance issues), it would be IMO the best solution.
Is there a reason it can't be?
There's nothing special about dodge bonuses that make them applicable to only one opponent. It's just the dodge feat that does that. Add a similar line of text to the armor optimization ability description
For reference: the dodge feat
Armor optimization should simply read something like this:
During your action, you designate an opponent and receive the listed bonus as a competence bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. If your armor optimization bonus is greater than +1 you may choose to divide it between multiple opponents. You can select new opponent(s) on any action.
You lose this bonus when you are flat-footed, immobilized or helpless, when you are wearing heavy armor, or when you are carrying a heavy load. This bonus does not apply against touch attacks.
Armor optimization should simply read something like this:
During your action, you designate an opponent and receive the listed bonus as a competence bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. If your armor optimization bonus is greater than +1 you may choose to divide it between multiple opponents. You can select new opponent(s) on any action.
You lose this bonus when you are flat-footed, immobilized or helpless, when you are wearing heavy armor, or when you are carrying a heavy load. This bonus does not apply against touch attacks.
Yah that's what I was thinking. I don't see any reason why you can't do that either
I like your version of armor optimization, but does the bonus increase with higher levels?
I like it too. The bonus should increase at higher levels IMO. +1 at 5th, +2 at 10th, +3 at 15th and +4 at 20th is a good progression. Maybe the conclusions of this thread could be taken in consideration by athas.org in future updates of the core DS gladiator rules.
How would these mesh/conflict with gladiator prestige classes? Do people prefer one over the other?
Is there a reason it can't be?
There's nothing special about dodge bonuses that make them applicable to only one opponent. It's just the dodge feat that does that. Add a similar line of text to the armor optimization ability description
For reference: the dodge feat
Armor optimization should simply read something like this:
During your action, you designate an opponent and receive the listed bonus as a competence bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. If your armor optimization bonus is greater than +1 you may choose to divide it between multiple opponents. You can select new opponent(s) on any action.
You lose this bonus when you are flat-footed, immobilized or helpless, when you are wearing heavy armor, or when you are carrying a heavy load. This bonus does not apply against touch attacks.
I'm fine with the bonus granted by armor optimization being a competence bonus. One thing only needs to be added, that the bonus only applies when you wear an armor or a shield. I'm also not quite sure if this shouldn't apply when wearing heavy armor, but I see the balance reasons for not allowing it.
Edit: I was just thinking how, about of limiting this Competence Bonus with the armor's MAX-Dex bonus? This way, a gladiator in heavy armor wouldn't get as much benefits than one in light or medium armor?
Edit: I was just thinking how, about of limiting this Competence Bonus with the armor's MAX-Dex bonus? This way, a gladiator in heavy armor wouldn't get as much benefits than one in light or medium armor?
I was thinking that too. Should you limit it by the characters dex bonus or just by the armor's max dex bonus. That is should someone in leather armor with a 10 dex get the standard bonus or no bonus? Should gladiators get armor optimization even if they have low dexterity?
I'd probably link the two, giving you something like this:
Armor Optimization: During your action, you designate an opponent and receive the listed bonus (up to your dexterity bonus, minimum +1) as a competence bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. If your armor optimization bonus is greater than +1 you may choose to divide it between multiple opponents, however the total bonuses received may never exceed your dexterity bonus. You can select new opponent(s) on any action.
In order to receive this bonus you must be wearing armor or using a shield. You lose this bonus when you lose your dexterity bonus to AC, when you are immobilized or helpless, or when you are carrying a heavy load. This bonus does not apply against touch attacks.
I removed the "when flat-footed" bit since you can't designate an opponent until your action anyway. However I added "when you lose your dexterity bonus" meaning someone could theoretically feint you into losing this bonus.
I was thinking that too. Should you limit it by the characters dex bonus or just by the armor's max dex bonus. That is should someone in leather armor with a 10 dex get the standard bonus or no bonus? Should gladiators get armor optimization even if they have low dexterity?
I'd probably link the two, giving you something like this:
Armor Optimization: During your action, you designate an opponent and receive the listed bonus (up to your dexterity bonus, minimum +1) as a competence bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. If your armor optimization bonus is greater than +1 you may choose to divide it between multiple opponents, however the total bonuses received may never exceed your dexterity bonus. You can select new opponent(s) on any action.
In order to receive this bonus you must be wearing armor or using a shield. You lose this bonus when you lose your dexterity bonus to AC, when you are immobilized or helpless, or when you are carrying a heavy load. This bonus does not apply against touch attacks.
I removed the "when flat-footed" bit since you can't designate an opponent until your action anyway. However I added "when you lose your dexterity bonus" meaning someone could theoretically feint you into losing this bonus.
I was thinking about something like this either, but I couldn't express it words. There is still one question I have. When you're saying "however the total bonuses received may never exceed your dexterity bonus." do you mean the actual Dex-bonus or do you mean the effective Dex-Bonus (the bonus that is limited by armor)?
I was thinking that too. Should you limit it by the characters dex bonus or just by the armor's max dex bonus. That is should someone in leather armor with a 10 dex get the standard bonus or no bonus? Should gladiators get armor optimization even if they have low dexterity?
I think that we shouldn´t make this ability too much complicated to use. If we want to make the bonus progressive in levels, we cannot limit it to the character's dexterity bonus. Not every gladiator has a good dex. Also we are talking about a competence bonus wich supposes mainly skill and trainment rather than pure dexterity.
In my opinion, a solution that seens simple and reasonable to keep balance is to restrict the use of this ability to characters wearing light or medium armor.
I was thinking about something like this either, but I couldn't express it words. There is still one question I have. When you're saying "however the total bonuses received may never exceed your dexterity bonus." do you mean the actual Dex-bonus or do you mean the effective Dex-Bonus (the bonus that is limited by armor)?
Effective dex bonus.
I realize this makes the ability less appealing for gladiators who have lower dex, but honestly I don't have a problem with that. A monk's wisdom bonus to ac is less appealing for monks with low wisdom. I see no reason a gladiator shouldn't be encouraged to have a high dexterity.
As far as competence vs. dex: yes competence implies skill, however, the limitation designates that it's skill based on your ability to move and get your armor in the right place at the right time. Gladiators are trained to make better use of their armor, but training only gets you so far if you're not coordinated. Therefore your competence bonus cannot exceed your dex bonus. Certainly, it doesn't have to be that way, but it's not self-contradictory as rewritten.
Effective dex bonus.
I realize this makes the ability less appealing for gladiators who have lower dex, but honestly I don't have a problem with that. A monk's wisdom bonus to ac is less appealing for monks with low wisdom. I see no reason a gladiator shouldn't be encouraged to have a high dexterity.
As far as competence vs. dex: yes competence implies skill, however, the limitation designates that it's skill based on your ability to move and get your armor in the right place at the right time. Gladiators are trained to make better use of their armor, but training only gets you so far if you're not coordinated. Therefore your competence bonus cannot exceed your dex bonus. Certainly, it doesn't have to be that way, but it's not self-contradictory as rewritten.
You are exactly saying what I'm thinking.
And about the competence vs. dex issue, the text wasn't clear enough for me, but this is also the way I'd like to use it.Effective dex bonus.
I realize this makes the ability less appealing for gladiators who have lower dex, but honestly I don't have a problem with that. A monk's wisdom bonus to ac is less appealing for monks with low wisdom. I see no reason a gladiator shouldn't be encouraged to have a high dexterity.
As far as competence vs. dex: yes competence implies skill, however, the limitation designates that it's skill based on your ability to move and get your armor in the right place at the right time. Gladiators are trained to make better use of their armor, but training only gets you so far if you're not coordinated. Therefore your competence bonus cannot exceed your dex bonus. Certainly, it doesn't have to be that way, but it's not self-contradictory as rewritten.
A high level archer, for example, can have a good attack bonus with low Dex. A high level rogue can have a good move silent skill even with a low dex. However, I agree with you. It's more a question of taste than a written prohibition. You can say that Dex limits your competence or not.
Personally, I wouldn´t limit the bonus to your dexterity modifier, since it's a bonus wich is supposed to be progressive in levels, different of the monk's bonus that is totally gained in the 1st level.
As anybody been looking to what I said about Armor optimization? I said very early in this thread (post #92) to make it an competence bonus instead of a dodge bonus. (keeping the same mechanics as the Dodge feat)
About combat styles: did anybody look at take #4 (post #98) for my version of the gladiator? He has 4 distinctive combat styles.
I feel a bit ignored here...
As anybody been looking to what I said about Armor optimization? I said very early in this thread (post #92) to make it an competence bonus instead of a dodge bonus. (keeping the same mechanics as the Dodge feat)
About combat styles: did anybody look at take #4 (post #98) for my version of the gladiator? He has 4 distinctive combat styles.
I have to admit that, coming kind of late to the thread, I kind of skimmed the middle 60 or so posts.
Don't take it as anyone trying to steal your ideas, but as indication that they're good ones, since other people think the same thing. ;)
If you were to go with combat styles would you guys go more along the lines of the kits in Complete Gladiator or fighting styles like the ranger has, two-weapon, ranged, maybe some stuff like the weapon-style feats in complete warrior?
I feel a bit ignored here...
As anybody been looking to what I said about Armor optimization? I said very early in this thread (post #92) to make it an competence bonus instead of a dodge bonus. (keeping the same mechanics as the Dodge feat)
About combat styles: did anybody look at take #4 (post #98) for my version of the gladiator? He has 4 distinctive combat styles.
Personally I grew bored with the endless debate like three pages ago- (thats 90 posts).
I have a question for you Banndon - Are you going to look and comment on anyones elses material except your own? It appears as though you have no interest in any one's work but your own- as of this post on this thread, 32 of them were yours and your profile only has 34 posts recorded.
Now I am all fine and happy to work with someone and discuss things that they are woking on, but if that person never takes the time or has the consideration to do the same for me then...well I would rather not work with that person.
Quid Pro Quo
You do for me and I do for you- And while I speak for myself, I am sure that a lot of the vetern posters and people who have a lot of contributions posted in the Forum Archive feel the same way I do in this.
This post is not a flame, bash, or ment to start an argument or make you mad- it is just my observations and comments to incease your awareness to the fact that if you do not like the fact that no one is replying to your ideas, maybe you should take an interest in there work too.
I have to admit that, coming kind of late to the thread, I kind of skimmed the middle 60 or so posts.
Don't take it as anyone trying to steal your ideas, but as indication that they're good ones, since other people think the same thing. ;)
If you were to go with combat styles would you guys go more along the lines of the kits in Complete Gladiator or fighting styles like the ranger has, two-weapon, ranged, maybe some stuff like the weapon-style feats in complete warrior?
I'd like to see stuff like what the ranger has. Also, if you have the time and have the magazine, somebody in a much earlier post mentioned a dragon magazine article specifically about gladiators. In it, there is much detail about the real world history of gladiators, and does metion a few distinct varieties of fighters - meaning they used different types of weapons and armor, and were generally paired in such a way as to create interesting matchups to play off the various strengths and weaknesses of the different styles.
Winning the crowd is not on the mind of an average gladiator, survival is. The idea of winning the crowd is based off of Roman Gladiators' ability to "win" there freedom, and was the perview of a champion. In DS, you don't have to win the crowd, just the SK to win your freedom but in the spirit of the possibility winning the crowd should be an Arena Champion ability. This is why I did not include it in my version.
Historically, gladiators were the best at one on one combat, they trained for it around 12/7. During the Gladiator Wars of Spartacus' revolt, organized gladiators put the beat down on the best trained soldiers of their time. There was no such thing as an untrained gladiator. The untrained you are thinking of were criminals and the persecuted sentenced to die by entertainment. So I'd give them at the very least access to the basic fighter feats for bonus feats.
Due to the fact that gladiators train in a wide variety of exotic weapons I'd drop the improvise weapons and the single exotic and make them proficient in all weapons.
Frankly, I feel feint is an overpowered maneuver that is in serious need of an overhaul, which is why I am working on a write up for variant rules for it. So I don't like or use rules like supreme feint and the like. Just a personal take on it.
The HD thing, I wouldn't worry about it though d8 is tad low. Hp and Dmg are a little overrated in D&D, I mean come on... A sword through the gut is a sword through the gut, it may be entertaining to the mob but how many can a guy take???
So that's my take, for those interested I should have an update on my version in a week. Rhul-Than put a link to it on the first page of this article for those that would like to add to it.
The Reforge is a worthy attempt, but I'd like to make a few points as an advid fan of gladiators with Rome in particular.
Winning the crowd is not on the mind of an average gladiator, survival is. The idea of winning the crowd is based off of Roman Gladiators' ability to "win" there freedom, and was the perview of a champion. In DS, you don't have to win the crowd, just the SK to win your freedom but in the spirit of the possibility winning the crowd should be an Arena Champion ability. This is why I did not include it in my version.
Historically, gladiators were the best at one on one combat, they trained for it around 12/7. During the Gladiator Wars of Spartacus' revolt, organized gladiators put the beat down on the best trained soldiers of their time. There was no such thing as an untrained gladiator. The untrained you are thinking of were criminals and the persecuted sentenced to die by entertainment. So I'd give them at the very least access to the basic fighter feats for bonus feats.
Due to the fact that gladiators train in a wide variety of exotic weapons I'd drop the improvise weapons and the single exotic and make them proficient in all weapons.
Frankly, I feel feint is an overpowered maneuver that is in serious need of an overhaul, which is why I am working on a write up for variant rules for it. So I don't like or use rules like supreme feint and the like. Just a personal take on it.
The HD thing, I wouldn't worry about it though d8 is tad low. Hp and Dmg are a little overrated in D&D, I mean come on... A sword through the gut is a sword through the gut, it may be entertaining to the mob but how many can a guy take???
So that's my take, for those interested I should have an update on my version in a week. Rhul-Than put a link to it on the first page of this article for those that would like to add to it.
I share your point of view on trained vs untrained gladiators. If we were to represent real world gladiators the simplest way would be Fighters. So in the Spartacus revolt you talk about, we would have seen a Fighther vs Warrior NPC class confrontation.
In Dark Sun you can create a single class Fighter and throw him in the arena, and he will be good, really good. The reason why I think we need a new gladiator class is to represent a more "entertainement focused" gladiator, since the fighter class already covers the fighting part. Since it is reasonable to think we cannot and should not make a better fighter than the fighter class I just put the focus elsewere.
Is Arena Champion PrC interesting enough to make it a base class in the Dark Sun context?
If yes, then this version of the gladiator is a possible answer. (I'm a little shy to say "my version" now because Kelsen and Bengeldorn made such great contributions!)
If no...then I think that the gladiator class of the current DS3.5 rules should be abolished. We should simply "replace" him by a fighter with a better class skill selection.
I like to keep things simple.
I'd like to see stuff like what the ranger has. Also, if you have the time and have the magazine, somebody in a much earlier post mentioned a dragon magazine article specifically about gladiators. In it, there is much detail about the real world history of gladiators, and does metion a few distinct varieties of fighters - meaning they used different types of weapons and armor, and were generally paired in such a way as to create interesting matchups to play off the various strengths and weaknesses of the different styles.
Unfortunatly I don't have those magazines, nor the Gladiator handbook from the last edition...I used to play in ye old days, but I was more of a Planescape guy :P
Personally I grew bored with the endless debate like three pages ago- (thats 90 posts).
I have a question for you Banndon - Are you going to look and comment on anyones elses material except your own? It appears as though you have no interest in any one's work but your own- as of this post on this thread, 32 of them were yours and your profile only has 34 posts recorded.
Now I am all fine and happy to work with someone and discuss things that they are woking on, but if that person never takes the time or has the consideration to do the same for me then...well I would rather not work with that person.
You do for me and I do for you- And while I speak for myself, I am sure that a lot of the vetern posters and people who have a lot of contributions posted in the Forum Archive feel the same way I do in this.
This post is not a flame, bash, or ment to start an argument or make you mad- it is just my observations and comments to incease your awareness to the fact that if you do not like the fact that no one is replying to your ideas, maybe you should take an interest in there work too.
There is a very simple answer to the fact I concentrate on one thread: lack of time.
My schedule is loaded. I don't want to embark on an endless comparaison of work loads, I just don't have the time to read all those threads. I'm currently away from home for a year and won't be back close to my D&D books and old DS stuff until this summer.
So instead of making short meaningless comments on other threads and be all confused. I decided to concentrate on one thread. Sorry, this is has much as I can affort.
I'll admit, the thought that a fairly low-level gladiator with the right feats could slip out of manacles (DC 30 or 35) but we can always assume that manacles or ropes aren't the only guards against a slave-gladiator's escape. Or it's a decent explaination of how a gladiator could have escaped for a life of adventure.
I think Escape Artist would be a good addition to the Gladiator's list of skills. If a gladiator ends up in a grapple, which one would think would happen often in gladiatorial combat, having expertise in getting away would make sense.
I'll admit, the thought that a fairly low-level gladiator with the right feats could slip out of manacles (DC 30 or 35) but we can always assume that manacles or ropes aren't the only guards against a slave-gladiator's escape. Or it's a decent explaination of how a gladiator could have escaped for a life of adventure.
mmmmh....not a bad idea...
but I kind of thought that a gladiator would escape a grapple with his high grapple check...
Escape artist, could be useful against bigger creatures....but he would need very high ranks in this skill to be of any use. Since the gladiator we're proposing is going to be hard pressed on skill points this possibility is still a bit hypothetical...The Tumble skill or Close Quarter Fighting feat is more useful IMO.
Shield Block (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, you excel in using your armor and shield to frustrate your enemy's attacks. During your action, designate a single opponent as the target of this ability. Your shield bonus to AC against that foe increases by 1, as you move your shield to defl ect an incoming blow, possibly providing just enough protection to turn a telling swing into a near miss.
This shield bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 20th level.
Pay attention to the first line: "you excel in using your armor and shield to frustrate your enemy's attacks...". That means that I was following the right way.
The preview of the Player's handbook II brings a new class the Knight which has an ability very similar to the concept of armor optimization I have already proposed. Look:
Pay attention to the first line: "you excel in using your armor and shield to frustrate your enemy's attacks...". That means that I was following the right way.
Well, I can't see it being called dodge bonus, but the shield bonus increases. So instead of providing a named bonus, this increases the actual bonus. The whole discussion we had, was actually about the bonus' name.
Well, I can't see it being called dodge bonus, but the shield bonus increases. So instead of providing a named bonus, this increases the actual bonus. The whole discussion we had, was actually about the bonus' name.
Yup the knight sure looks competent! ;)
Since each of us have a very specific view for the gladiator, I suggest to put in this conclusion only the suggestions and critics wich are *common sense*.
Since each of us have a very specific view for the gladiator, I suggest to put in this conclusion only the suggestions and critics wich are *common sense*.
That actually might be pretty helpful, especially since I am trying to re-work Bann's version and hitting a brick wall.
Haven't fogotten about you Banndon.
- EWP bonus feats are too limiting. Consider allowing weapon focus, or other fighting style or weapon related feats as well.
- Higher levels of Gladiator don't hold the appeal of higher levels of other classes
- Armor optimization should be rethought. Consider making it a progressively higher bonus to a single type of armor, or to any armor.
- Consider adding special abilities, a la high level Rogue
- Consider adding some audience-related or showy maneuver related abilities and/or increasing their usefulness.
- Consider adding a bardic music-like ability based off of Perform skill to reflect flashiness.
- Consider adding something like sneak attack, or skirmish (from complete adventurer). Perhaps it should apply when the gladiator is flanked, perhaps some other situation.
- Consider adding a increasing unarmed strike damage progression a la Monks.
- Most people prefer Hit Dice d10 or greater.
- More skill points than 2+int per level. Maybe 4+int, maybe 6+int. Probably 4+int.
- Consider adding a dazing or stunning attack.
- Consider adding abilities that improve critical threat range on all/select weapons.
- Consider changing starting weapon proficiencies to be all melee weapons (including exotic ones), or all simple/martial melee weapons and a selection of exotic weapons, or perhaps just all weapons.
- Consider adding Fighting Style Trees, a la the Ranger
- Consider adding Weapon Intuition ability which progressively reduces Non-proficiency penalty over the gladiator's 20 level lifetime.
- Consider adding escape artist to the gladiator's class skills.
Things to Consider when Examining/Rewriting the Gladiator Class (in no particular order):
- EWP bonus feats are too limiting. Consider allowing weapon focus, or other fighting style or weapon related feats as well.
- Higher levels of Gladiator don't hold the appeal of higher levels of other classes
- Armor optimization should be rethought. Consider making it a progressively higher bonus to a single type of armor, or to any armor.
- Consider adding special abilities, a la high level Rogue
- Consider adding some audience-related or showy maneuver related abilities and/or increasing their usefulness.
- Consider adding a bardic music-like ability based off of Perform skill to reflect flashiness.
- Consider adding something like sneak attack, or skirmish (from complete adventurer). Perhaps it should apply when the gladiator is flanked, perhaps some other situation.
- Consider adding a increasing unarmed strike damage progression a la Monks.
- Most people prefer Hit Dice d10 or greater.
- More skill points than 2+int per level. Maybe 4+int, maybe 6+int. Probably 4+int.
- Consider adding a dazing or stunning attack.
- Consider adding abilities that improve critical threat range on all/select weapons.
- Consider changing starting weapon proficiencies to be all melee weapons (including exotic ones), or all simple/martial melee weapons and a selection of exotic weapons, or perhaps just all weapons.
- Consider adding Fighting Style Trees, a la the Ranger
- Consider adding Weapon Intuition ability which progressively reduces Non-proficiency penalty over the gladiator's 20 level lifetime.
- Consider adding escape artist to the gladiator's class skills.
You summed it up pretty good. You forgot about the Wounding ability.
What's your opinion on the take #4? (my last attempt)
You summed it up pretty good. You forgot about the Wounding ability.
What's your opinion on the take #4? (my last attempt)
I think wounding ability could be considered as an ability or as part of a specific fighting style.
What's your opinion on the take #4? (my last attempt)
I have to say, while I like the idea of performance based abilities, I think there's one serious flaw in requiring an audience.
Except in a gladiatorial campaign you're just not going to have one. Sure it's great when the character is fighting in the arena, but rereading Crimson Legion the gladiators of Tyr decimate the Urikites even though there's no one watching them.
I think it should be a focus on techniques to intimidate their enemies and to psyche themselves up, whether or not there's anyone paying them any attention.
I have to say, while I like the idea of performance based abilities, I think there's one serious flaw in requiring an audience.
Except in a gladiatorial campaign you're just not going to have one. Sure it's great when the character is fighting in the arena, but rereading Crimson Legion the gladiators of Tyr decimate the Urikites even though there's no one watching them.
I think it should be a focus on techniques to intimidate their enemies and to psyche themselves up, whether or not there's anyone paying them any attention.
I agree with you. Although perform could add something to the flavour, IMHO it could also be covered by Intimidate.
I agree with you. Although perform could add something to the flavour, IMHO it could also be covered by Intimidate.
If you take a closer look, the Winning the Crowd ability is by no account essentiel to the viability of the gladiator I proposed. Like I mentionned earlier, this version is to represent a more "showman" oriented gladiator. The fighting part is already very well represented by the fighter class and we should not try to surpass him in this field. It's a simple matter of balance.
The Intimidate skill mechanics, like that of the feints, is somewhat deficient in 3.5. It would have to be severely overhauled or tweeked. Perform is a bit more flexible in that regard.
If you take a closer look, the Winning the Crowd ability is by no account essentiel to the viability of the gladiator I proposed. Like I mentionned earlier, this version is to represent a more "showman" orirented gladiator. The fighting part is already very well represented by the fighter class and we should not try to surpass him in this field. It's a simple matter of balance.
The Intimidate skill mechanics, like that of the feints, is somewhat deficient in 3.5. It would have to be severely overhauled or tweeked. Perform is a bit more flexible in that regard.
I recently checked the Complete Warrior, because I remembered there have been some rules gladitorial matches. After reading it again I have to admit, that Perform could make sense. Unfortunately, the Complete Warrior is not OGC.
This Wizards of the Coast© game product contains Open Game Content. No portion of this work may be reproduced in any form without written permission.....
So this made me think of two questions:
- Couldn't athas.org try to get a written permission to use the gladiatorial match rules and the Perform (weapon drill) skill?
- Is it allowed to make own rules for gladiatorial matches (inspired by those presented)?
If athas.org would get a written permission to use these rules, a gladiator could be designed around these rules.
If it is allowed to present/publish rules for gladiatorial matches inspired by those rules presented, I have tried somethink, I'd like to post.
If both doesn't work, it's pretty hard to get gladiatorial matches working for DS IMHO.
Actually, what I'm trying to say is, that, first we need rules for gladiatorial matches, then we can design a proper gladiator core class. At least, this is my humble opinion.
If you take a closer look, the Winning the Crowd ability is by no account essentiel to the viability of the gladiator I proposed. Like I mentionned earlier, this version is to represent a more "showman" orirented gladiator.
I definitely understand, and I agree that the audience based abilities you presented aren't essential to the function of your gladiator, but I still feel like anyone who plays a character who can almost never use even one of their class features is going to feel cheated.
A gladiator character is never going to have an audience of 20+ unless they're actually fighting in the arena. And unless you're running a gladiatorial campaign, that's going to happen very infrequently.
Like I said before, I would suggest altering the performance based aspect of the class, which I very much like, to something that doesn't require an audience to use.
I definitely understand, and I agree that the audience based abilities you presented aren't essential to the function of your gladiator, but I still feel like anyone who plays a character who can almost never use even one of their class features is going to feel cheated.
A gladiator character is never going to have an audience of 20+ unless they're actually fighting in the arena. And unless you're running a gladiatorial campaign, that's going to happen very infrequently.
Like I said before, I would suggest altering the performance based aspect of the class, which I very much like, to something that doesn't require an audience to use.
I personnaly consider this ability to be fluff (he could not have it and still be a decent gladiator). I understand your point on the usefulness of a class ability, but does a paladin always fight evil? (smite evil) or does a giant slaying ranger always fight giants? No.
When a gladiator enters a city, I think most player inquire about the next fights being organize just to test his skills, earn some money or glory. He then has an occasion to use those abilities. Gladiatorial matches should be fairly frequent in DS. Besides, it's the perfect side quest!
If you're a player and stubbornedly continue to gain levels in the gladiator class when your campaign is set deep in the waste, then it's your problem! Not a useless class feature.
If you're a DM, your campaign is set in cities and you've got a gladiator around the table and you never give him an occasion to show off, then you're just mean! (or a poor DM).
I definitely understand, and I agree that the audience based abilities you presented aren't essential to the function of your gladiator, but I still feel like anyone who plays a character who can almost never use even one of their class features is going to feel cheated.
I agree with you. In my campaing I focused the gladiator in 3 main abilities: Progressive Armor Optimization bonus, Wounding, Weapon Mastery (gladiator progressivelly becomes proficient in all weapons).
Also, I gave him 4 Bonus Feats and a progressive Reputation bonus wich also helps to attract followers (same mechanic used in Well of Time RPG).
No audience based abilities.
When a gladiator enters a city, I think most player inquire about the next fights being organize just to test his skills, earn some money or glory. He then has an occasion to use those abilities. Gladiatorial matches should be fairly frequent in DS. Besides, it's the perfect side quest!
Except this becomes a solo adventure, in essence. It creates a dichotomy between players, in that the gladiator is gaining experience for encounters that no one else is participating in (unless everyone decides to hop in the arena).
I think I would be hard pressed to effectively include arena matches in a non-gladiatorial campaign. Sure, if it's a campaign where everyone's a gladiator (whether they're of the Gladiator class or not) there's no problem. If it's a campaign where we get to a city and everyone goes off and expects to have their own little side adventure (gladiator to the arena, preserver has a little run-in with the Alliance, etc.), well if you can pull that off as a DM, my hats off to you. It's more work that I'm willing to do. (Where as making sure the ranger runs into his favored enemy isn't. Neither is making sure there are some evil guys for the paladin to beat up. And again those are both things that everyone, whether they specialize in it or not, can participate in.)
And again, I'm not saying the class feels underpowered since you can't use the abilities except in front of a crowd. I'm just suggesting that psychologically there's something unappealing about a class that you know you're not going to be able to get the "full effect" from, for whatever reason. As a player, if I knew I wasn't going to be in front of an audience much I'd look at those abilities and go "Well that's going to be a waste."
Except this becomes a solo adventure, in essence. It creates a dichotomy between players, in that the gladiator is gaining experience for encounters that no one else is participating in (unless everyone decides to hop in the arena).
I think I would be hard pressed to effectively include arena matches in a non-gladiatorial campaign. Sure, if it's a campaign where everyone's a gladiator (whether they're of the Gladiator class or not) there's no problem. If it's a campaign where we get to a city and everyone goes off and expects to have their own little side adventure (gladiator to the arena, preserver has a little run-in with the Alliance, etc.), well if you can pull that off as a DM, my hats off to you. It's more work that I'm willing to do. (Where as making sure the ranger runs into his favored enemy isn't. Neither is making sure there are some evil guys for the paladin to beat up. And again those are both things that everyone, whether they specialize in it or not, can participate in.)
And again, I'm not saying the class feels underpowered since you can't use the abilities except in front of a crowd. I'm just suggesting that psychologically there's something unappealing about a class that you know you're not going to be able to get the "full effect" from, for whatever reason. As a player, if I knew I wasn't going to be in front of an audience much I'd look at those abilities and go "Well that's going to be a waste."
If you're not going to let the gladiator BE a gladiator and fight in the arena from time to time why bother then? Play a fighter. They're perfectly focused on fighting skills...so there's always useful.... Except if you run a political campaign...
It all depends on the circonstances. Every class has there 2 minutes of glory and other times they just suck.
We can't concentrate class developpement with dongeon crawling and combat encounters in mind all the time. When you speak of "full effect", I can't help to think that you want the gladiator to fill a combat role in this perspective (only).
As for campaigns, well keeping the PCs in a tight little bunch all the time isn't very realistic. Sometimes you want to do stuff on your own, work your background story a bit.
Giving the gladiator abilities that work in front of an audience of 20 would be like giving the Paladin abilities that only work in churches that are sanctified to his deity. Or saying the ranger's combat styles only work in a specific type of terrain. Sure, I could make it work, in specific circumstances. The bad guys could repeatedly assault the paladin on his home turf. But I'd rather have a class that isn't pigeonholed into such a specific type of adventure by his abilities.
If you're not going to let the gladiator BE a gladiator and fight in the arena from time to time why bother then? Play a fighter. They're perfectly focused on fighting skills...so there's always useful.... Except if you run a political campaign...
But then why bother with the paladin, the ranger or the barbarian. I mean the fighter's perfect for fighting so you don't need them right? The gladiator can be a different kind of fighter without having abilities that require him to fight in the arena. I think large-audience-based abilities belong in a prestige class (like arena champion), such that they're there for people who want them for an Arena based campaign, but not forced on every gladiator who takes the class.
All I'm saying is I'd rather see flashy moves that don't have to have an impractically large audience to use. And I suppose I'm being that guy who complains and doesn't offer any suggestions, so let me think about it some this week and see if I can't come up with some nice gladiator abilities that would be useful in and out of the arena.
Besides, an audience of 20 could be found in a bar-room brawl, or in a challenge to the death in some elven tribe's camp in the desert. All it takes is some creativity to find the usefulness in it.
To me it's simply a matter of scope.
Giving the gladiator abilities that work in front of an audience of 20 would be like giving the Paladin abilities that only work in churches that are sanctified to his deity. Or saying the ranger's combat styles only work in a specific type of terrain. Sure, I could make it work, in specific circumstances. The bad guys could repeatedly assault the paladin on his home turf. But I'd rather have a class that isn't pigeonholed into such a specific type of adventure by his abilities.
In DS, rangers DO have an ability that depends on terrain type...it doesn't make them impratical to play. They're specialists.
But then why bother with the paladin, the ranger or the barbarian. I mean the fighter's perfect for fighting so you don't need them right? The gladiator can be a different kind of fighter without having abilities that require him to fight in the arena.
It doesn't require them to fight in an arena. Like huntercc said, it can be a crowd in the market place, a tribe of elves watching a duel, a fight to be the clutch leader, etc. You don't need stands, just people watching.
Crowd abilities isn't the base of the reforge, but not giving them any is basically saying that he's a fighter. Gladiatorial matches are commun enough on Athas to make a crowd-pleasing-gladiator a base class instead keeping it a prestige class. In that case Arena Champion would be obsolete or at least it should be geared toward even more crowd manipulation.
I think large-audience-based abilities belong in a prestige class (like arena champion), such that they're there for people who want them for an Arena based campaign, but not forced on every gladiator who takes the class.
Not all paladins or rangers focus on spellcasting, but they can still do it: it's a class feature. Not all wizards fully use there familiar, not all druids focus on spellcasting, some focus more on shapechanging (warshaper PrC, master of manyform PrC), etc, etc.
Having a class ability doesn't force me to try to take full advantage of it. It's there, it defines the gladiator class as we see it, not the whole spectrum of gladiators.
It doesn't require them to fight in an arena. Like huntercc said, it can be a crowd in the market place, a tribe of elves watching a duel, a fight to be the clutch leader, etc. You don't need stands, just people watching.
Don't forget pub brawls. ;)
Don't forget pub brawls. ;)
Specially!
the beer is already there! you only need natchos and big foam finger
In DS, rangers DO have an ability that depends on terrain type...it doesn't make them impratical to play. They're specialists.
Actually they can choose to have abilities that depend on terrain, and doing something similar might actually make this psychological more appealing.
My ideal gladiator would get abilities that work similar the Rogue 10+ abilities. An ability every X levels which the player gets to choose from a list. This would really allow you to customize your gladiator to be the kind of gladiator you want, letting you focus more on combat, or on the performance aspects (or on a variety of other gladiatorial options).
When I was brainstorming a write-up that used something similar I came up with this list of abilities, though I hadn't gotten around to writing up the mechanics for them:
Arena Acting
Dirty Tricks
Crowd Favorite
Home Turf
Poison Use
Rush of the Crowd
Signature Move
Tactics
Targeted Strike
Taunting
Terrifying Presence
The Upper Hand
That was just kind of taking catch-phrases from the Gladiator's handbook, I'm sure people could think up some more.
My ideal gladiator would get abilities that work similar the Rogue 10+ abilities. An ability every X levels which the player gets to choose from a list.
When would these abilities start? At first level?
If they start at low level, my problem with this is that these are more than class abilities, they're feats. So why not make them available to fighters also? We're back to square one.
But none the less, I like feats!
Arena Acting: As a move action, on a sussesful Bluff vs Sense Motive check, you can make your adversary believe you're wounded. Your next attack is considered a succeful feint. You can only use this once on any adversary.
Arena Acting: As a move action, on a sussesful Bluff vs Sense Motive check, you can make your adversary believe you're wounded. Your next attack is considered a succeful feint. You can only use this once on any adversary.
I don't understand the usefullnes of this ability.
Feint: If Bluff vs Sense Motive is successfull -> opponent looses his Dex-Bonus to AC
Arena Acting: If Bluff vs Sense Motive is successfull -> If next attack is successfull -> opponent looses his Dex-Bonus to AC
What is the benefit?
When would these abilities start? At first level?
If they start at low level, my problem with this is that these are more than class abilities, they're feats. So why not make them available to fighters also? We're back to square one.
But none the less, I like feats!
I had thought of starting them at higher levels, potentially even 10+ same as the Rogue.
As for why they're not feats, it's the same reason that Evasion or Favored Enemy isn't a feat, because it's meant to reflect specialized training gained by the particular class, not something that's available to everyone.
I don't understand the usefullnes of this ability.
Feint: If Bluff vs Sense Motive is successfull -> opponent looses his Dex-Bonus to AC
Arena Acting: If Bluff vs Sense Motive is successfull -> If next attack is successfull -> opponent looses his Dex-Bonus to AC
What is the benefit?
The opponent doesn't add his BAB to his Sense Motive check.
What would be our athasian version?
We can't really expect gladiator to follow a code of coduct though...