Something similar to Racial Substitution Levels.
1) Join the craft via role playing and, perhaps, a feat.
2) At certain levels, gain a Craft substitution level instead of a normal wizard (for example) level. It could also have the added bonus of that you could only belong to one craft (unless the different crafts had substitution levels at different levels).
Could this work? What do you think?
Regards
Gary
I see one great benefit of the substitution levels over a prestige class with the Crafts- you can control the advancement in the secret craft better. You won't have a min. level character for the prestige class attempt to gain all the secret craft levels as his next levels.
The big issue though is where you put the substitution levels, and what (if anything) is sacrificed for the varient abilities. Additionally, you would have to mesh these substitution levels with conversions of notable Glantrian practitioners to make sure the right wizards have the right levels.
Overall, I think you have a strong idea here, particularly if you put significant roleplay requirements into the acquisition of the craft level.
I see one great benefit of the substitution levels over a prestige class with the Crafts- you can control the advancement in the secret craft better. You won't have a min. level character for the prestige class attempt to gain all the secret craft levels as his next levels.
Yeah that's a big benefit. ;)
The big issue though is where you put the substitution levels, and what (if anything) is sacrificed for the varient abilities. Additionally, you would have to mesh these substitution levels with conversions of notable Glantrian practitioners to make sure the right wizards have the right levels.
Obviously these are two good points. The substitution levels could/should vary depending upon the 'power' of the abilities of a given craft in relation to the other crafts.
I'll dust off my copies of GAZ3 and Glantri:Kingdom of Magic and check those NPCs.
Overall, I think you have a strong idea here, particularly if you put significant roleplay requirements into the acquisition of the craft level.
Thanks it just sort of came to me when someone posted on the MML about the crafts.
It's just one more thing to add to the list of things to do.
Regards
Gary
If someone gets it done before I get to that section of my project, I'll steal it.. If not, I'll post it when I do it ahead of the project, as a treat/teaser for giving me the suggestion.
Roger
:-) Jesper
After thinking more about the substitution level idea, I've realised that it won't really work. You would need prereq's at each level instead of just the first.
My current idea is...
Could you use a series of feats instead?
For example
Necromany Novice [Secret Craft]
This feat allows you to become a member of the the first circle of the necromancy secret craft.
Prereqs: Arcane caster level 5?
Benefits: ...
Special: you must be aware of the society and must have been invited to join by an existing member.
To give wizards a slight edge over other arcane casters you could allow them to select a secret craft feat as one of their bonus feats.
Could this work?
Regards
Gary
Just saw that the main site has a web enhancement up that has substitution levels for some minor organizations from Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin. Might want to check out some examples...
Do you have a link handy?
Regards
Gary
Could you use a series of feats instead?
Could this work?
Maybe. All the secret craft circles have different pre-requisites to obtain, each circle being harder than the first... and an initial "membership" feat that does nothing but allow you to take the subsequent feats.
I've seen something like that for the Savage Barony swordmaster schools (Regional feats.pdf) found on the Lighthouse website.
I've never playtested it, so I don't know how well it works.
Roger
Maybe. All the secret craft circles have different pre-requisites to obtain, each circle being harder than the first... and an initial "membership" feat that does nothing but allow you to take the subsequent feats.
Off the top of my head, here's what the prereq's would look like for a 'generic' secret craft.
Generic First Circle [Secret Craft]
Prereq: Arcane Caster Level 5
Generic Second Circle [Secret Craft]
Prereq: Arcane Caster Level 7, Generic Novice feat
etc. up to
Generic High Master [Secret Craft]
Prereqs: Arcane Caster Level 18, Generic First Circle feat, Generic Second Circle Feat, Generic Third Circle feat, Generic Fourth Circle feat
Special: Must challange and beat (or force him to retire) the existing High Master of the Craft.
Obviously the feats would have more flavourable names for the individual crafts.
Regards
Gary
First of all, IMHO the Secret Crafts were designed to add power and mystique to special Glantrian wizards to establish their superiority over simple hedge-wizards from other nations. As such, I have always favoured a Secret Craft system that adds powers to an existing class instead of replacing some powers for others.
I like the feat idea because of its simplicity but I don't like it because a wizard would have to give up so many other powers that "regular" wizards have such at item creation feats and metamagic feats.
This is why I liked the original idea of taking an "alternative level" instead of a regular wizard level. I must admit I still don't quite understand, why that was not a viable alternative?
:-) Jesper
Another thing that just occurred to me is that making the abilities feats rather than substitution levels wouldn't really be much of a difference- since you would be swapping out class abilities in favor of the new abilities in a substitition level (and, with wizard classes, that generally amounts to getting rid of bonus feats for new abilities).
I still think that Prestige Classes are the best way to emulate the Secret Crafts in 3E, though I admittedly haven't been able to come up with a solution that I am completely comfortable with myself yet.
example:
Brotherhood of the Radiance [General]
Prerequisites: 5+ Character Levels, Ability to cast Arcane Spells
Benefit: By selecting this feat, the character is has access to study One of the seven secret crafts of the Radiance.
Normal: Without this feat, a character may never gain access to the Secret Crafts, or earn membership into the Brotherhood, regardless of his knowledge of the Radiance.
Special: The character must be a student of the Great School of Magic in Glantri and be sponsored by an existing member of the Brotherhood of the Radiance.
This way, the character still has to sacrifice a feat, but doesn't loose all his bonus feats... Every thing else can remain as-is with few/no conversion.
Also, the feat by itself has no special properties, it's merely a prerequisite to joining the Brotherhood--if he never becomes a student (due to adventuring or home/dominion/etc issues), or is unable to find/convince a member to sponsor him. To make it even more of a sacrifice on the part of the mage, the feat must be selected propr to searching for a sponsor. Membership/sponshorship would not be automatic.
Just another thought,
Roger
I dont like the idea of selecting a feat that offers no other benefit than being allowed to join a secret organization though. I'd rather have another seemingly useless feat as a pre req for the PrC, and then ofcourse, having to have found out about the Craft through RPing will always be a pre req for these...
Håvard
IF I am correct above, what are the difficulties in using a PrC? Is it just a matter what levels to place abilities, or is it more complex than that?
(I'm just trying to catch up to the same page as everyone else
)http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a
My first choice is still the substitution levels, done a manner that makes sure a spellcaster takes them in proper order. If you look at the link above, you'll see that a substituion level doesn't necessarily take something big away, or even anything at all- a mage for instance may lose a +1 increase to their Will save or not gain a +1 BAB at that level.
A PrC is the next best option in my opinion, although you may have to sacrifice several Wizard bonus feats if you make it a ten-level class.
Using feats is not bad in theory, but the practioners of the Secret Crafts are the elite of the wizard class. Using feats robs them of feats and bonus feats that would be spent on metamagic and item creation. IMO, a secret crafter is not a different flavor of wizard, he is a better than normal wizard- otherwise it wouldn't be so difficult to become one. The first two options can be made in a way to reflect this, feats alone cannot do this.
Just a thought.
Håvard
To answer a few points.
This is why I liked the original idea of taking an "alternative level" instead of a regular wizard level. I must admit I still don't quite understand, why that was not a viable alternative?
The only problem that I have with substiution levels is finding a way a making sure that the PC has to take each level in order and not skip any of the levels. In theory, using substiution levels (as is) a mage could wait until level 18 and take the fifth circle without of taking any of the previous circles.
I suppose we could change it so that each substituition level has its own prereq's. For example, to take the second circle you must have taken the first.
I still think that Prestige Classes are the best way to emulate the Secret Crafts in 3E, though I admittedly haven't been able to come up with a solution that I am completely comfortable with myself yet.
The problem I have with the Prestige Class approach, is that the levels of the PrC are, obviously, consecuitive were as the original crafts were spaced out through the mage's levels.
A rather inelegant solution would be to have a series of 5 one level prestige classes for each craft, each requiring the previous PrC(s) in the series and a minimum caster level.
Although I've played 3.x for a number of years now, I haven't used PrCs so I may be off here. Aren't there PrCs that use "+1 caster level" so that the character still advances in spells but also benefits from the PrC's features?
Of course PrC's (and substiution levels) allow you to continue to gain caster levels.
As I pointed out above I don't like the PrC appraoch because it clumps all the levels together, especially if you reduce it to a 5 level class.
Something I've just thought about is, you could use the longer 10 level prestige class and make its progression identical to the wizard's except that you also gain the benefits of each circle at even levels (so first circle at level 2, second circle at level 4 etc).
Using feats is not bad in theory, but the practioners of the Secret Crafts are the elite of the wizard class. Using feats robs them of feats and bonus feats that would be spent on metamagic and item creation. IMO, a secret crafter is not a different flavor of wizard, he is a better than normal wizard- otherwise it wouldn't be so difficult to become one. The first two options can be made in a way to reflect this, feats alone cannot do this.
Yes, that's the big problem with using a series of feats - you'll obviously be giving up a maximum of 5 feats out of a total of 11 or 12 (depending on if you're human or not). Of course ,as you point out, if we use the Prestige class option the pc could lose up to 4 bonus wizard feats depending upon how many levels of wizard he gives up.
So we have four choices
1) Substituition levels - but we need to have prereq's on each level.
2) Prestige Classes - IMHO they would need to be 10 levels.
3) Feats - It means losing some opportunities for item creation etc.
4) Leave as is - It could work but it's my least favourite.
It gives me/us something to think on. ;) I don't want to start the G:KoM conversions until I/we have worked this out.
Regards
Gary
As I pointed out above I don't like the PrC appraoch because it clumps all the levels together, especially if you reduce it to a 5 level class.
Something I've just thought about is, you could use the longer 10 level prestige class and make its progression identical to the wizard's except that you also gain the benefits of each circle at even levels (so first circle at level 2, second circle at level 4 etc).
Well, as you said, you could have one Circle equalling two levels of PrC; I'd rather choose odd levels (i.e. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9) as Circle-entering levels (so you would have 9th and 10th as Fifth-Circle levels, with the Grand Master power gained at tenth level and with only one person a a time - the Grand Master - among the tenth-level members that can use it).
This way, each Circle could distribute its abilities among two PrC levels, and you'll not have the "all-clumped-together" problem anymore. ;)
I also don't like very much the feats approach, becouse, as it has already been said, it seems to me too much costly for a character.
Moreover, for those who like preserving the GAZ3's requirements to advance from a Circle to another, you could have a minimum number of ranks of Spellcraft and/or Knowledge (arcana) and a minimum highest-spell-level-known that the character must have in order to rise in level.
[If one wanted to be really nasty, you could include a Spellcraft check against various modifiers and against various DCs to advance in each Circle...
]Each odd level would be a circle promotion. Even levels would just be "+1 arcane Caster Level" 10th would be grand-master of XXX
That way the circles are spread out, not back to back.... It will take a minimum of 14 levels to reach 5th circle. Even longer if the char takes other levels in the middle.
Also, it would take a spellcraft check to learn each new ability, and the char would still have to pay the money and take the time to study (oulined in gaz2) before gaining a circle benefit...
Just another option, expanding on somone else's idea,
Roger
I like the idea of a 10-lvl PRC. Membership into the brotherhood and 5+ arcane levels would be a prerequisite. Possibly Knowledge (Arcane)+8 or Knowledge (Radiance)+8..
Each odd level would be a circle promotion. Even levels would just be "+1 arcane Caster Level" 10th would be grand-master of XXX
That way the circles are spread out, not back to back.... It will take a minimum of 14 levels to reach 5th circle. Even longer if the char takes other levels in the middle.
Also, it would take a spellcraft check to learn each new ability, and the char would still have to pay the money and take the time to study (oulined in gaz2) before gaining a circle benefit...
Just another option, expanding on somone else's idea,
Roger
As you point out, the character can choose other class levels in between, even advancing as a regular Wizard now and then, and with a 10-level PrC, the character only gets to a higher circle every 2nd level.
As for the requirements, I'd actually like it if each Craft could have at least one individual skill requirement. The Craft of Alchemy would (obviously) require the Craft (Alchemy) skill. Necromancy could require the Heal skill. WitchCraft could require scry, Dracology could require Knowledge (arcana?), Elementalism would require Knowledge (Planes), and Dream Mages perhaps concentration?
These are just suggestions though, other alternatives might work just as well...
Håvard
As for the requirements, I'd actually like it if each Craft could have at least one individual skill requirement. The Craft of Alchemy would (obviously) require the Craft (Alchemy) skill. Necromancy could require the Heal skill. WitchCraft could require scry, Dracology could require Knowledge (arcana?), Elementalism would require Knowledge (Planes), and Dream Mages perhaps concentration?
I agree. I don't agree with the scry skill for the Witch though. Scry was taken out of 3.5...
Looking at Gaz 2, I might suggest:
MoAlchemy --> Craft (alchemy)
MoDragons --> Knowledge (dracology) [canon alternative: arcana]
MotElements --> Knowledge (the Planes)
MoIllusions --> Spellcraft
MoNecromancy --> Heal (amazingly, I agree that this is probably the best skill pre-req)
MotRunes --> Knowledge (runes); Speak Language/Literacy (runes)
Mistress of WC --> Knowledge (arcana); Spellcraft -or- Concentration
I'll try and have a suggested PrC written up this evening... If one of you don't get to it first...
Roger
In any case, I have come up with some solutions/ideas, not all of which are as elegant as I'd like, but since the topic has come up a bit lately, I thought I'd share.
Before that, though, some comments:
Well, as you said, you could have one Circle equalling two levels of PrC; I'd rather choose odd levels (i.e. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9) as Circle-entering levels (so you would have 9th and 10th as Fifth-Circle levels, with the Grand Master power gained at tenth level and with only one person a a time - the Grand Master - among the tenth-level members that can use it).
I think that is the best way to do it, for sure, though I don't think the "Circle" concept works out quite as well in 3E as it did in OD&D. Mainly, because of the disparity of powers in the various Crafts- the Dracologist, for instance, is pretty powerful compared to the other Crafts (always was), and it has so many abilities at a certain level (2nd Circle has 3 or 4, IIRC), whereas others have only one, maybe two.
Also, again, the balance issue comes into play. It is rather inelegant PrC design to set things up so that people can "cherry pick" abilities- pick up a level or two and get a lot or some powerful abilities, and then drop the class. It is better to have abilities that can advance as you level, and otherwise provide incentive to continue along a certain course of progress, which would require remodeling several of the Crafts as written.
Similarly (and conversely), some of the Craft powers are only attained at higher levels, when they might be better distributed throughout the PrC, escalating in power. The Dracologist's ability to assume Dragon Form, for instance, is not quite as good in 3E by itself (and at that level, 9th or 10th) since by that time (c.14th level) there are some other PrCs that exist (the Shifter, IIRC) that can do the same thing, but multiple times per day. (Of course, you would also need to clarify what size/type/hd of draconic form could be assumed). It might be better to start out at an earlier level with this ability, culminating in the final (best) version.
The 5th Circle "only 1 Grandmaster" aspect of the Crafts is also a bit of a sticky wicket, in general, as it kind of creates an exclusivity that the mechanics of 3E/d20 seem to have tried to avoid. It puts a cap on level progress (if only in the PrC itself), and sort of hinders character growth. Not a major issue, I suppose, if it is viewed as a major element of the class (see "Intent", above) but one to be considered.
Along with that, I would suggest that- in addition to mechanical requirements (x number/type of feat, x number of skill points in a certain skill, etc.)- to use the idea of campaign specific requirements, such as Test Based Prerequisites.
Each odd level would be a circle promotion. Even levels would just be "+1 arcane Caster Level" 10th would be grand-master of XXX
This is the best approach, in general, though again I'd note that- with balance issues in mind- not every Craft should be only +5 Caster level. In particular, Crafts such as the Dracologist (with its powerful abilities) should be on the low end of Caster Level progression, while others (such as the Cryptomancer, perhaps, which seems more of a different approach to casting magic than a different type of magic; ie, providing a different spellcasting medium rather than adding abilities), should get more of a Caster Level progression; same thing with Crafts that provide very specific abilities that are only useful in certain situations (though I can't think of one offhand; I am mostly just thinking of an Order of the Spell Skirmisher PrC that I made that had a lot of abilities while on horseback, but that wouldn't really benefit "out of the saddle.")
As for the requirements, I'd actually like it if each Craft could have at least one individual skill requirement. The Craft of Alchemy would (obviously) require the Craft (Alchemy) skill. Necromancy could require the Heal skill. WitchCraft could require scry, Dracology could require Knowledge (arcana?), Elementalism would require Knowledge (Planes), and Dream Mages perhaps concentration?
I thought that this would be a good idea at one point, and IIRC have tried to model the classes as such, although it didn't quite work out as cut-and-dried as I'd have liked. Some of the Crafts, for instance, have a bit of overlap (Alchemists and Witches come to mind- both seem heavily inclined towards the Craft (Alchemy) skill).
In any case, I think the Witch is the one that I have come the furthest in designing, so I will use that for my first feedback post after this.
Witch
Description/Flavor Text goes here
Hit Die: d4
Requirements: To qualify as a wiccan, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
Feats: Brew Potion, Scribe Scroll
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, spellcraft 10 ranks, disguise 4 ranks
Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells of 3rd level or higher.
TABLE X-X: THE WITCH
Level BAB Fort. Ref. Will Special Spellcasting
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Brews and Philtres +2 +1 level of existing class
2 +1 +0 +0 +3 Silver Tongue +2 +1 level of existing class
3 +1 +1 +1 +3 Doll Curse —
4 +2 +1 +1 +4 Brews and philtres +4, witches' charm +1 level of existing class
5 +2 +1 +1 +4 Silver Tongue +4 +1 level of existing class
6 +3 +2 +2 +5 —
7 +3 +2 +2 +5 Brews and philtres +6 +1 level of existing class
8 +4 +2 +2 +6 Silver Tongue +6, Shape Change +1 level of existing class
9 +4 +3 +3 +6 —
10 +5 +3 +3 +7 Ultimate Possession, brews and philtres +8 —
CLASS SKILLS
The witch’s class skills (and the key ability for each) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (alchemy) (Int), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills, taken individulally) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
CLASS FEATURES
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Witches gain no new proficiencies in either armor or weapons.
Brews and Philtres (Ex): A witch gains the listed number as a bonus to her Craft (alchemy) checks.
Silver Tongue (Ex): A witch learns to speak in a very persuasive manner, as long as her arguments remain plausible. The wiccan gains the listed number as a bonus to Bluff checks used to influence others. Additionally, use of the Bluff skill is a standard action rather than a full-round action when attempting to influence others. She must be able to speak the language of those whose attitudes she is attempting to affect.
Doll Curse (Ex): The witch is able to make a replica of a living creature he or she knows, and use it to cast spells upon the target even if separated by distance. She must have a piece of the creature (lock of hair, skin, etc.) or a personal item belonging to the creature in order to establish a connection. Using the doll, the witch can cast any spell that has a target of living creature upon the target, regardless of distance separating the witch and her victim; normal chances of avoiding the spell’s effects (spell resistance, saving throws) still apply. Construction of the doll takes x amount of time and money.
Witches' Charm (Sp): Witch is affected as if casting a disguise self spell at will.
Spellbinding: Improved Familiar feat for free? Or second familiar, perhaps?
Witches' Curse (Sp): Bestow Curse spell-like ability, usable x times/day.
Shape Change: The wiccan gains the ability to cast shapechange x times/day.
Ultimate Possession (Sp): Gains ability to possess others as per possession in the Book of Vile Darkness. It only works on living creatures, and it only works like the Controller aspect.
Notes:
1) Doll Curse needs some work, though I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to tweak it. It definitely needs clarification, though.
2) Witches' Charm: I don't recall offhand how this works; I'll have to check it when I get home. In any case, it seems to me that it essentially enables the Witch to use the disguise self spell at will (though in the case of OD&D, this power only worked a certain number of times/day). Needs some clarification, perhaps spread its use over a period (such as 1/day at this level, increasing at later levels?)
3) Spellbinding, obviously, I'm not sure which way to go with it. I kind of like both ideas. Have to check the specifics of the ability when I get home though- it seems to me that it might be a bit different than my notes here imply.
4) This is a good example of an ability that should probably scale with level. The initial thought was that it would be just using the bestow curse spell as a spell-like ability, but it could either increase in potency and/or number of uses per day. I should check the Hexer base class in Complete Warrior for an idea of a similar concept.
5) Shapechange. Another idea of an ability that should scale. I think it should start at a lower level, similar to the druid, with increasing numbers of usage and abilities as the Witch gains levels. In particular, I was thinking that allowing the Witch the use of Wildshape (swarm) at this level of the Craft (to reflect the higher Circle) would be good- allow the witch to assume a cat or bat swarm form as one of her options.
6) Ultimate Possession- my notes above pretty much explain what I was thinking about going for here, but this ability definitely needs some clarification/change since the magic jar spell functions somewhat differently in 3E than it did in OD&D.
Anyway, I'll try and post some of the other Crafts that I've worked on for your perusal and input.
[EDIT] Just thought of something- 2 things, really.
1) IIRC, the Witch Craft mentioned something to the effect of the witch being able to cast spells directly out of a spellbook. I think I would like to reflect this with the Craft abilities (perhaps some of the "middle" levels) by allowing such a thing, though it would still use one of the witches spell slots for the day (IE, they would be swapping out a prepared spell in order to cast a spell out of their spellbook, the casting taking bump up to the next casting time as a result; ie, a swift spell would be a standard action; a standard action spell would be a full-round action; etc.)
2) Not entirely sold on the Caster level progression as yet. I think I would have to see the overall abilities before I signed off, but I think this class is not so powerful as to limit it to a 5 level (or lower) progression, but that it should be on the higher end.
Unfortunately, I haven't come up with a good system of doing this as yet, at least not a system that I am in love with. If anyone else has an idea, I'd love to hear suggestions.
I don't think substitution levels are the appropriate mechanic in this situation. Substitution levels are for if you want to play a barbarian or wizard that's slightly different from other barbarians or wizards, and Secret Crafts are more transformative than that, befitting a new class.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to treat Secret Crafts as magic items the initiates create, using their own bodies as raw materials. Use the regular magic item creation rules to become an initiate of a Secret Craft.
It might also be a good idea to not use game mechanics to define the circles of the Crafts at all. Instead, turn their abilities into feats, and require one of the prerequisites of those feats to be a certain circle within the appropriate Secret Craft. For example, the PC finds a sponsor to the Craft of Alchemy, pays 500 gp and studies for 14 days, and then, presuming other requirements are met, is eligible for the Find Components and Alchemical Preparation feats.
Roger
1) Should we keep the time needed ('cycle') to learn each ability of a circle? My personal view is that we should keep it, perhaps modified if needed, along with the required gp cost. The theme of the crafts seems to be that of research and expansion of arcane skills and should be emphasized. This in addition to the 'above and beyond' power levels of the crafts should make it costly, in many ways.
2) How should we handle the extra experience points required (and then lost) while learning to learn how to use new ability? I'm not even sure about this myself but I have an idea that I'm going to flesh out some more to see if it is workable.
3) Are abilities going to be automaticly successful or should we give them a certain chance to fail? The original uses a percentage chance but we could base it on a skill check versus a DC. For that matter, it is conceivable that each craft has it's own unique skill that a magic-user would have to commit ranks to. For example, similar to Havard's suggestions, the Mistresses of Witchcraft would use a skill called "Secret Craft (Witchcraft)" and a Master of Illusion would use "Secret Craft (Illusionism)".
4) Do we plan on keeping the number of uses restriction given in the gaz, or perhaps a modified one? I'd like to see some kind of restriction in the way the gaz suggests.
These are just to help us get thinking about things and for discussion. I have an alternative method for the secret crafts that I'll work and if it comes up as practical I'll certainly post it for further development.
[Edit] I absolutely have to go to sleep now, but tomorrow I will post a brand new concept that I worked out - The Prestige Skill. It looks like it'll work very well, but it is late and I'm tired so tomorrow everyone can help me pick it apart and perfect it.[/Edit]
It looks like Andrew beat me to the punch... Oh well, I'll just have to submit something else so that I don't look like I'm not contributing anything! :P
Well, like I said, I've been working on them for a long time now, and have a ton of notes. Hopefully I'll be able to (with some contributions) pare them down into something useful. I should actually put the above in a new thread to do just that.
Will try and post some of the other "easier" ones first, so we can work through them a bit. Some of the others are really tough- Necromancer and Dracologist, I seem to recall, gave me the most trouble (for a one similar reason- the 5th Circle power- and different reasons; theme/flavor for the Necromancer, and balance for the Dracologist).
I'll try and post some more of my thoughts and processes tomorrow, and see if I can get a fresh perspective from the rest of you.
1) Should we keep the time needed ('cycle') to learn each ability of a circle? My personal view is that we should keep it, perhaps modified if needed, along with the required gp cost. The theme of the crafts seems to be that of research and expansion of arcane skills and should be emphasized. This in addition to the 'above and beyond' power levels of the crafts should make it costly, in many ways.
My immediate thought, off the top of my head, is no. For one thing, the original classes were things you learned in addition to your regular class- you just used some of your earned experience from utilizing your base class to "pay off" the cost of the Craft. In the case of a Prestige Class, you are "learning as you go" essentially; the XP cost you pay would be reflected in the XP you are earning- it's "on the job experience."
The GP cost is another thing, and I be convinced that it could be made into a requirement; reflecting study and training costs and such. Not absolutely necessary, but a case could be made.
2) How should we handle the extra experience points required (and then lost) while learning to learn how to use new ability? I'm not even sure about this myself but I have an idea that I'm going to flesh out some more to see if it is workable.
I think that, under any of the concepts we've discussed (PrC, Feats, Substitution Levels) you should completely discard the OD&D concept of extra XP. The additional XP is already reflected in the level advancement. The extra XP in the original concept was- along with the GP and limited usage requirement- the sole balancing factor of the Craft; and one that may or may not have worked. Since we're taking a different approach, we need to find a different balance, and I think that is reflected in simple level advancement.
3) Are abilities going to be automaticly successful or should we give them a certain chance to fail? The original uses a percentage chance but we could base it on a skill check versus a DC. For that matter, it is conceivable that each craft has it's own unique skill that a magic-user would have to commit ranks to. For example, similar to Havard's suggestions, the Mistresses of Witchcraft would use a skill called "Secret Craft (Witchcraft)" and a Master of Illusion would use "Secret Craft (Illusionism)".
I think this would depend on the approach you take. If you go with a PrC or Substitution Levels, I think having a failure chance would make the class too unappealing for most people to want to take. Why take a class that has features that might not work, when you could take a class that always is reliable?
If you take the Feat approach, however, I think it would be fine to keep the failure rate in some form- something along the lines of the Track feat (or Research or Urban Tracking feats from Eberron); something that works off of a skill, and has different DCs (or the same DC) to accomplish a task.
4) Do we plan on keeping the number of uses restriction given in the gaz, or perhaps a modified one? I'd like to see some kind of restriction in the way the gaz suggests.
This is something that I was going to get into more depth about in my notes on the Dracologist and Necromancer, but for a general overview, I'd say yes and no.
Yes- in the sense that restrictions on the number of uses of abilities- especially in certain cases (spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities)- should definitely apply, for balance reasons.
No- in the sense that the restrictions as written in Gaz3 just don't always make for good game balance in 3E. Abilities that can only be used once per month, for instance, don't make for good class abilities. I think this applies regardless of the approach you take- if a PrC or Substitution Level gets usage of an ability only once/month, that makes it really largely unuseful for most game sessions. Unless your game sessions take a month apiece, you are looking at being able to use the ability- worse yet, the ultimate ability of the class- only once every couple of game sessions. Why not take a class that has more utility?
The same applies even moreso, IMO, with a Feat. For something that is few and far between, and for which you potentially sacrifice the ability to attain other feats (through prerequisites), that is a high cost to pay for a Feat you can only use once/month. Once/week is too high, and once/day is still kind of pushing it.
Anyway, some further thoughts to germinate in our Mystaran heads.
1) XP costs: I agree with Andrew here, the "cost" is assumed to have been paid in the time leading up to the level. Now I wouldn't be adverse to some abilities having a small XP cost to use (in a manner similar to a wish spell or item creation). The Doll Curse ability could require XP as well as time and money in order to create the doll.
2)Advancement Requirements: I'm not sure if it has been done in other 3.5e prestige classes, but what about having increasing requirements as you progress? Using Andrew's Witch as a model:
Base Requirements: To qualify as a wiccan, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:
Feats: Brew Potion, Scribe Scroll
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, spellcraft 10 ranks, disguise 4 ranks
Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells of 3rd level or higher.
Level 5 Requirements:
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 10 ranks, spellcraft 15 ranks, disguise 6 ranks
Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells of 6th level or higher.
Sacrifice X gp
Level 10 Requirements:
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 15 ranks, spellcraft 20 ranks, disguise 8 ranks
Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells of 9th level or higher.
Sacrifice X gp
This could keep people from running through the class and add any needed requirements to keep it balanced. We must also keep in mind that the crafts should have very significant roleplay requirements that may not be easily quantifiable.
3) I'm not keen on having abilities be able to fail on the whole, but in individual cases, it may be needed for balance - Doll Curse strikes me as an ability that may need something like this or it could be really abused.
4) Uses per day should be adjusted to more 3.5e appropriate increments. Most abilities probably should be around 3/day, with the most powerful ones being 1/day. Under rare circumstances, maybe 1/week (I'm thinking about the Dracologist here). Some smaller abilities could scale based on craft level (or caster level).
I think we have a good start to making these crafts into some great prestige classes. Honestly if we succeed in this, these PrC's will be a lot better than most of the ones that are produced.
1) XP costs: I agree with Andrew here, the "cost" is assumed to have been paid in the time leading up to the level. Now I wouldn't be adverse to some abilities having a small XP cost to use (in a manner similar to a wish spell or item creation). The Doll Curse ability could require XP as well as time and money in order to create the doll.
Definitely in agreement with that. There are a lot of little abilities like that- similar to crafting items- that could have their own xp and/or gp costs.
2)Advancement Requirements: I'm not sure if it has been done in other 3.5e prestige classes, but what about having increasing requirements as you progress? Using Andrew's Witch as a model:
I actually like this idea, now that it has been brought up. Ripvanwormer mentioned the Ardent Dilettante as an example from the Planar Handbook, and after reviewing that, and seeing your idea here (which is very similar), I think that is not a bad idea, and could help to solve the "increasing Circle" phenomenon that I was always butting up against myself (finding a way to model that accurately).
Feats, Prestige Classes, Substitution levels, or Prestige skills take your pick.
;)
One thing I was thinking of was how the candidate finds out about the Secret Craft(s). Obviously a lot of us would prefer to do this bit via role playing but for those that require 'crunch' maybe we could require Gather Information 5 ranks (or so).
In regards to the 5th Circle and the High Master, are they synomonous or can you have more than one member of the 5th circle? Must check my books.
Regards
Gary
In regards to the 5th Circle and the High Master, are they synomonous or can you have more than one member of the 5th circle? Must check my books.
According to Gaz3, you're only supposed to have one High Master. When a 4th Circle member is high enough in level to attain the 5th Circle, the two have to duel (not necessarily to the death). The winner gains the title and the power, and the loser loses the ability and must retire from the order (if not slain).
How that works for certain abilities (notably, the Lich power of the Necromancer) I don't know- presumably they do not become mortal again, although that almost seems like they get a better deal than others (if you consider being a rotting undead a good deal).
One thing I was thinking of was how the candidate finds out about the Secret Craft(s). Obviously a lot of us would prefer to do this bit via role playing but for those that require 'crunch' maybe we could require Gather Information 5 ranks (or so).
One possibility is to secretly roll a Gather Information check once a week/month/whatever to see if the student discovers anything. If/when successful give the PC a bit of teaser-info that may cause him to investigate. It could be an adventure all to itself.
One possibility is to secretly roll a Gather Information check once a week/month/whatever to see if the student discovers anything. If/when successful give the PC a bit of teaser-info that may cause him to investigate. It could be an adventure all to itself.
That is a very good idea. Maybe couple it with a skill check based on the craft investigated- ie Craft(Alchemy) for Witchcraft, Knowledge (religion) for Necromancy etc...
The player's shouldn't really know they exist unless they can put the pieces of a puzzle together and they should have to be dedicated and persistant in the pursuit of these crafts. It involves roleplay, and it makes use of the rules for, IMHO, an undervalued skill(s).
Even though it goes against the original rules, I wouldn't mind seeing the 5th Circle and the High Master as seperate titles. Perhaps the High Master gains some bonus to his abilities or something. Either way it could be an optional rule that can be used or not used depending on the DM and the campaign.
This isn't a bad idea. I think the role of High Master really is more of a roleplaying one than a mechanical one, frankly, and goes along with other roleplaying aspects of the craft.
This would also allow further progression in the Craft- additional abilities, usages, etc. (regardless of the format you choose to use- Prestige Class/Skill/Feat).
One possibility is to secretly roll a Gather Information check once a week/month/whatever to see if the student discovers anything. If/when successful give the PC a bit of teaser-info that may cause him to investigate. It could be an adventure all to itself.
That's an idea, we could come up with a general/generic list of DCs that could be inserted into DM's adventures (while researching in the GSoM library to find out how to defeat the uber-wraith, Yorick's Gather Information check shows that he finds a paragraph in Yommler's Necrolibricon about practitioners of necrology and revivification at the Great School. He makes a note to follow up on this when the current crisis is abated.)
This isn't a bad idea. I think the role of High Master really is more of a roleplaying one than a mechanical one, frankly, and goes along with other roleplaying aspects of the craft.
Like you said, advancing in the crafts really is a role-playing event rather than just 'Oh, and you advance to the next level' type of thing. I think it would be acknowledged in a gathering and there would be political intrigue within the order itself (as the gaz suggests). The more I think about it the more I realize the potential to base a campaign around the Great School and learning a Secret Craft.
This would also allow further progression in the Craft- additional abilities, usages, etc. (regardless of the format you choose to use- Prestige Class/Skill/Feat).
If you choose to seperate the 5th Circle from the High Master, I will definately follow suit with the Prestige Skills option.
That's an idea, we could come up with a general/generic list of DCs that could be inserted into DM's adventures (while researching in the GSoM library to find out how to defeat the uber-wraith, Yorick's Gather Information check shows that he finds a paragraph in Yommler's Necrolibricon about practitioners of necrology and revivification at the Great School. He makes a note to follow up on this when the current crisis is abated.)
That's a really good idea. Would you want to set it up as a chart of increasing DCs that reveal less ambiguous info, or use a list of random results from which a die roll chooses one? (or another method?).
Something else I was thinking about was the 1% chance of (for lack of a better term) a 'critical fumble' causing a negative result. Is this something worth keeping, representing the potency of the Crafts (just like wild magic) or should it be disregarded? I myself have mixed feelings about it so...
Like you said, advancing in the crafts really is a role-playing event rather than just 'Oh, and you advance to the next level' type of thing. I think it would be acknowledged in a gathering and there would be political intrigue within the order itself (as the gaz suggests). The more I think about it the more I realize the potential to base a campaign around the Great School and learning a Secret Craft.
Yeah- there is definitely that potential. You'd start out a lower levels, dropping some hints, then the PCs would join. All kinds of potential for conflict as they advance in the levels and make alliances with different NPCs, with their own agendas (possibly setting the PCs against one another), or even with different PCs from different Crafts being set at odds with one another.
It might work best, at least initially, as just a backdrop to other more "standard" adventures. When they get to the higher Circles of the Craft is where it would probably become more focused around the politics of the Crafts.
That's a really good idea. Would you want to set it up as a chart of increasing DCs that reveal less ambiguous info, or use a list of random results from which a die roll chooses one? (or another method?).
I was thinking something along the lines of what they do with the new Prestige Class format. Like this:
[HTML]Sun Soul Monk Lore
The Order of the Sun Soul is closely affiliated with the church of Lathander and
loosely affiliated with the churches of Selûne and Sune. Characters who succeed
on a Knowledge (religion) check can learn the following information, including the
information from lower DCs:
DC 10: The Order of the Sun Soul is a widely scattered sect encompassing
worshipers of the Morninglord, the Moonmaiden, and Lady Firehair.
DC 15: Monks of the Sun Soul Order are dedicated servants of the common folk,
a tradition stretching back many generations.
DC 20: Monks of the Sun Soul Order can visibly manifest their spirits in the form
of light or fire. According to their teachings, everyone harbors a tiny piece of the
golden, life-giving sun in his or her soul.
DC 30: The Order of the Sun Soul dates back to the time of Netheril. The order,
once known as the Brotherhood of the Sun, evolved into its current form after the
death of Amaunator. The Order of the Sun Soul is not particularly secretive, but a
great deal of confusion surrounds its teachings because of its division into three sects,
each venerating a different deity. Even members of the order are often unaware that
the order once served the church of Amaunator.
[/HTML]
Just an example, but we'd set it up similarly, with (obviously) lower DCs for lower level characters to initially discover the information about the Craft. Higher level DCs (like the DC 30) would provide more difficult clues, such as possibly the identity of the High Master of the order.
Something else I was thinking about was the 1% chance of (for lack of a better term) a 'critical fumble' causing a negative result. Is this something worth keeping, representing the potency of the Crafts (just like wild magic) or should it be disregarded? I myself have mixed feelings about it so...
I am kind of on the fence about it myself. I don't think it works very well mechanically- in the sense that there really aren't very many abilities that do have failure chances (none that I can think of- maybe turn undead, but that is also a function of undead HD). At the same time, I kind of like the idea of messing with forbidden magicks, and the price they bring.
This is one area where your Prestige Skill idea works better than a Prestige Class, actually, as you would always have at least the possibility of a natural 1 coming up.