Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Apr 01, 2006 6:43:15	Hi guys, Has anyone noticed that the disadvantage of a WoHS's patron moon at low sanction far outweighs the benefits at high sanction or even during a conjunction? A loss of spellcaster level means that the WoHS will miss out on casting his highest level spell for an uncomfortably large amounts of time, particularly when they're at odd levels. This far outweighs the benefit WoHS gets from the piddly +1 to caster level/DC when the WoHS's patron moon is at high sanction. This situation is really bad for white robes because Solinari stays at low sanction the longest. All other things being equal, I rather not have to deal with my player's sudden drop in power in the middle of an adventure unnecessarily due to a class feature. Has anyone explored making of the moon phases feature from the WoHS PrC optional just like the arcane focus feature?
#2 cam_banks Apr 01, 2006 6:54:46	There have been a number of thoughts raised on moon magic for wizards, not the least of which is why it's not available to non-WoHS who are able to cast high enough spells. One solution is to give WoHS better benefits than non-WoHS when it comes to High Sanction, while making non-WoHS have to deal with it as it is now if they've passed the Test but not taken the PrC. Renegades who haven't even passed the Test would remain unaffected, or perhaps suffer only the drawbacks. Cheers, Cam
#3 zombiegleemax Apr 03, 2006 15:04:25	Personally as things stand, I like the way moon magic works. Non-wizards of High Sorcery receive no benefit and suffer no penalties accordingly. However, if you're a Tower wizard, while during High Sanction you are able to cast more spells per day, because of the higher caster level, and possibly even reach a new level of spellcasting. Also, while Solinari has the longest period of Low Sanction, it also has the longest period of High Sanction. So the scales tend to balance each other out. However, this is the prime reason I play Black Robes: 2 days of High Sanction, 4 days of normal casting, 2 days of Low Sanction. As far as adventuring goes, my Black Robe wizards simply take Low Sanction off as their weekends. ;)
#4 darthsylver Apr 03, 2006 16:01:46	Well one thing to remember is that penalties are effectively canceled out when the moons are in conjunction, (when two or more, moons are at low sanction.) With Nuitari's quick cycle the length of time for the penalty is reduced considereably. It is almost unfair to normal wizards, because the conjunctions of low sanction cancel penalties (fairly often) and conjunction at high sanction increase the wizard's power which happens almost as often.
#5 darthsylver Apr 03, 2006 17:12:17	I also tried a little experiment with the moon chart, with random rolls of 11 for Solinari, 11 for Nuitari and 1 for Lunitari these are the results I got Day Sol Lunitari Nuitari 1 +2 +2 +2 2 +1 +1 -1 3 +1 +1 -1 4 -1 Normal Normal 5 -1 Normal Normal 6 -1 Normal +1 7 -1 Normal +1 8 Normal Normal Normal 9 Normal Normal Normal 10 +1 +1 +1 11 +1 +1 +1 12 Normal Normal Normal 13 +1 -1 +1 14 Normal -1 +1 15 +1 +1 +1 16 +1 +1 Normal 17 +1 +1 Normal 18 +1 +1 -1 19 +1 +1 -1 20 +2 +2 +2 21 +2 +2 +2 22 +3 +3 +3 23 +3 +3 +3 24 +2 +2 Normal 25 +2 +2 Normal 26 +2 +2 -1 27 +2 +2 -1 28 +2 +2 Normal 29 +1 Normal Normal 30 +1 Normal +2 31 +1 +1 +1 32 +2 +2 +2 33 +2 +2 +2 34 +1 +1 -1 35 +1 +1 -1 36 Normal Normal Normal So as you can see: Solinari has 4 negative days, 5 Regular days and the rest are enhanced. Lunitari has 2 negative days, 10 Regular days and the rest are enhanced. Nuitari has 8 Negative days, 12 regular days and the rest are enhanced. Granted this is not every month but you get the idea. At most with solinari it will get no more than 7 negative days and Lunitari will get no more than 6 negative days in any period as Nuitari will eventually catch Lunitari on at least one day and Solinari on at least two days throughout that period. If anybody suffers it is the black robes. While Sol & Lun enjoy at least seven days at high sanction, Nuitari hits low sanction at least 2 days (possibly 3 or 4).
#6 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2006 6:28:02	Personally as things stand, I like the way moon magic works. Non-wizards of High Sorcery receive no benefit and suffer no penalties accordingly. However, if you're a Tower wizard, while during High Sanction you are able to cast more spells per day, because of the higher caster level, and possibly even reach a new level of spellcasting. This is not what the ability says. At high sanction you get an increased caster level but not an increased class level. Class level is the one that dictates how many spells per day you can prepare and the highest spell you can cast. So at high sanction you get slightly better spell penetraion, duration, range and damage than if you had no bonus. At low sanction however, if your caster level drops below the minimum need to cast a spell you lose the ability to cast that spell. Hence at odd levels WoHS will lose the ability to cast their highest spell levels. This is a debilitating penalty far in excess of the benefits they get a high sanction. Furthermore this is, effectively, a random fluctuation in power. An NPC WoHS can vary drastically in power depending on the day, hence my BBEG can actually be really weak and not present a challenge at all if the PCs decides to attack at low sanction. However at high sanction the BBEG only presents a slightly greater threat than he would normally.
#7 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2006 16:58:37	This is not what the ability says. At high sanction you get an increased caster level but not an increased class level. Class level is the one that dictates how many spells per day you can prepare and the highest spell you can cast. So at high sanction you get slightly better spell penetraion, duration, range and damage than if you had no bonus. At low sanction however, if your caster level drops below the minimum need to cast a spell you lose the ability to cast that spell. Hence at odd levels WoHS will lose the ability to cast their highest spell levels. This is a debilitating penalty far in excess of the benefits they get a high sanction. Furthermore this is, effectively, a random fluctuation in power. An NPC WoHS can vary drastically in power depending on the day, hence my BBEG can actually be really weak and not present a challenge at all if the PCs decides to attack at low sanction. However at high sanction the BBEG only presents a slightly greater threat than he would normally. Uhm, no. Caster level is what determines how may spells per day you receive, as well as the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. Class levels do not. If you are a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, mystic, etc. caster level increases at every class level. Take the Hierophant, Renegade Hunter, or Sylvan Mage for example. Their caster level does not increase at every class level. As a result these characters have higher class levels and lower caster levels. Also the increase from Moon Magic does not say effective caster level(unless I'm totally off my rocker), like the High Arcana(Spell Power) from the Archmage prestige class(which does indeed say effective level). This is why items, such as the Miceram or Mina's Medallion of the One God, can indeed raise true caster level. Which, as I said above, results in more spells per day and the ability to cast spells of higher spell levels. I hope this serves to further illuminate my point. Otherwise you may want to read the magic and spellcasting sections of the 3.5 Players Handbook just to review.
#8 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2006 19:02:58	Uhm, no. Caster level is what determines how may spells per day you receive, as well as the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. Class levels do not. If you are a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, mystic, etc. caster level increases at every class level. Take the Hierophant, Renegade Hunter, or Sylvan Mage for example. Their caster level does not increase at every class level. As a result these characters have higher class levels and lower caster levels. I'm sorry but you're wrong. You are confusing casting spells and preparing spells. Both the SRD and the PHB says that the wizard's level determine the spells she can prepare, not caster level. Prestige classes have special rules regarding their level of spellcasting they attain at various levels. More specifically they have a feature that adds to the class level of a previous spellcasting class they belonged to before joining the PrC. This enables them to prepare more and better spells. So in fact their spellcasting class does increase with levels taken in the PrC as long as the PrC says it does and hence it is spellcasting class levels that determine spell preparation limits not caster level. Your Hierophant example particularly illustrates my point. The Hierophant has a special ability that says that levels in Hierophant stacks the character's base spellcasting class to determine caster level. However it does not give improved spellcasting progression in the base class. Hence although the Hierophant has increased caster level, it does not have increased spellcasting class level hence it cannot prepare additional spells or higher levels spells. Also the increase from Moon Magic does not say effective caster level(unless I'm totally off my rocker), like the High Arcana(Spell Power) from the Archmage prestige class(which does indeed say effective level). This is why items, such as the Miceram or Mina's Medallion of the One God, can indeed raise true caster level. Which, as I said above, results in more spells per day and the ability to cast spells of higher spell levels. I hope this serves to further illuminate my point. Otherwise you may want to read the magic and spellcasting sections of the 3.5 Players Handbook just to review. The text from the DLCS says that the caster bonus when the the moons are in high sanction are for when the WoHS cast their spells. Not when they prepare their spells. Hence WoHS will not be able to prepare more spells or higher level spells due to the caster level increase. However a caster level decrease will cause the minimum caster level required to cast a spell to drop and hence stop the WoHS from casting the spell. For a 5th level WoHS, her moon is at low sanction she won't be able to cast, although she can prepare, 3rd level spells because the minimum caster level for a 3rd level spell (5th) is not meet. So no fireballs.
#9 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2006 22:37:58	I apologize, beaver1024. You are indeed correct. After reading your post I did some quick research. The clincher came when I reviewed the Crown of Power and the Medallion of the One God. The artifacts do not say that they grant increased caster level, but increased effective spellcaster levels. A subtle difference, but an important one nontheless. So, as I said before in title, I retract my earlier statements. I did have an afterthought after I posted this. In the description for Reserves of Strength, with the increased caster level comes the added ability to break spell damage limits(s per their example). While it doesn't say this for the effects of moon magic, it may have been the same intention. Which would serve to make Moon Magic a little more attractive.
#10 cam_banks Apr 08, 2006 23:20:57	Cam and everybody else, Is this correct? Is this the intended function of the Moon Magic feature of the WoHS? If this is true then I can further increase spells per day and highest spell level I can cast via Orange Ioun stones? Caster level is not what determines number of spells per day. It's for spell duration, effective caster level for purposes of overcoming spell resistence, variable effects of spell damage, etc. The problem is, you're mistaken in what Low Sanction does. It's the same as High Sanction, only negative. Your caster level is reduced by -1 for these purposes. You can still cast the same number of spells per day, it just means that they don't last as long, are easier to save against, can't overcome SR, etc. Cheers, Cam
#11 zombiegleemax Apr 09, 2006 0:35:39	Caster level is not what determines number of spells per day. It's for spell duration, effective caster level for purposes of overcoming spell resistence, variable effects of spell damage, etc. The problem is, you're mistaken in what Low Sanction does. It's the same as High Sanction, only negative. Your caster level is reduced by -1 for these purposes. You can still cast the same number of spells per day, it just means that they don't last as long, are easier to save against, can't overcome SR, etc. Cheers, Cam Yes, after doing some research, I came to the same conclusion. Hence my above retraction. However, the point I think beaver1024 is trying to raise about Low Sanction(if I finally have this right) is that because of the -1 caster level penalty a Wizard of High Sorcery may not be able to cast their highest level spells. In the players handbook it states that while caster level may be voluntarily lowered to the bare minimum necessary to cast a given spell it cannot be reduced any further or the spell cannot be cast. For example: A 5th level Wizard of High Sorcery(4th wizard/1st wizard of high sorcery) with an Intelligence Score of 13 can prepare a 3rd level spell(let's say fireball) and cast it at a 5th caster level(for 5d6 damage, etc.). During High Sanction the Wizard of High Sorcery can prepare a 3rd level spell(let's say fireball, again) and cast it at a 6th caster level(for 6d6 damage etc.). During Low Sanction a Wizard of High Sorcery can prepare a 3rd level spell(let's continue with fireball, shall we?) and cast it at a 4th caster level(for 4d6 damage, etc.). However, a 4th level caster level is not high enough to cast a 3rd level spell. Even though he is still capable of preparing 3rd level spells, because of his class levels, that -1 caster level penalty will result in him being unable to cast his 3rd level spells when he attempts to try during Low Sanction. This is the point you were trying to hammer into my thick skull, wasn't it beaver1024? ;) Now, Cam, if I have it wrong could you please point out where and/or correct my above example?
#12 zombiegleemax Apr 09, 2006 1:52:30	Yes, after doing some research, I came to the same conclusion. Hence my above retraction. However, the point I think beaver1024 is trying to raise about Low Sanction(if I finally have this right) is that because of the -1 caster level penalty a Wizard of High Sorcery may not be able to cast their highest level spells. In the players handbook it states that while caster level may be voluntarily lowered to the bare minimum necessary to cast a given spell it cannot be reduced any further or the spell cannot be cast. For example: A 5th level Wizard of High Sorcery(4th wizard/1st wizard of high sorcery) with an Intelligence Score of 13 can prepare a 3rd level spell(let's say fireball) and cast it at a 5th caster level(for 5d6 damage, etc.). During High Sanction the Wizard of High Sorcery can prepare a 3rd level spell(let's say fireball, again) and cast it at a 6th caster level(for 6d6 damage etc.). During Low Sanction a Wizard of High Sorcery can prepare a 3rd level spell(let's continue with fireball, shall we?) and cast it at a 4th caster level(for 4d6 damage, etc.). However, a 4th level caster level is not high enough to cast a 3rd level spell. Even though he is still capable of preparing 3rd level spells, because of his class levels, that -1 caster level penalty will result in him being unable to cast his 3rd level spells when he attempts to try during Low Sanction. This is the point you were trying to hammer into my thick skull, wasn't it beaver1024? ;) Now, Cam, if I have it wrong could you please point out where and/or correct my above example? Yes that's it. When your caster level drops below the minimum level needed to cast a spell you can't cast that spell at all, which can happen at low sanction. In fact it happens every odd levels as that is level where WoHS gets their next highest level spell.
#13 cam_banks Apr 09, 2006 4:45:11	Yes that's it. When your caster level drops below the minimum level needed to cast a spell you can't cast that spell at all, which can happen at low sanction. In fact it happens every odd levels as that is level where WoHS gets their next highest level spell. That's not the intention in this case. Cheers, Cam
#14 zombiegleemax Apr 09, 2006 6:15:06	That's not the intention in this case. Cheers, Cam It would seem that the only way to get around this problem is to have my villains take the arcane focus option. It's debatable whether losing an additional school is as bad as losing your highest level spells. Apart from orange ioun stones, is there any other items that will help alleviate the problem? I can see these items being quite common to my WoHS NPCs.
#15 cam_banks Apr 09, 2006 7:30:57	It would seem that the only way to get around this problem is to have my villains take the arcane focus option. It's debatable whether losing an additional school is as bad as losing your highest level spells. Apart from orange ioun stones, is there any other items that will help alleviate the problem? I can see these items being quite common to my WoHS NPCs. Let me reiterate. Low Sanction doesn't affect your access to spells. It isn't like choosing to lower your caster level in order to reduce the variable effects of your spells; it's an involuntary condition that reduces the effects of your spells, ability to overcome SR, and make dispel checks. Wizards under the effects of Low Sanction will continue to be able to cast all of the spells they usually can. Even with a caster level lowered to 4th, the wizard can still cast fireball, but it will only do 4d6 damage. Cheers, Cam
#16 darthsylver Apr 09, 2006 13:10:11	That is nice to know. I personally liked the idea of wizards having a weakened time period (Not being able to cast their highest level spells). Even if it does not happen all that often due to Conjunctions and all that. Black robes getting the worst end of the stick on this one.
#17 sailorcallie Apr 09, 2006 13:15:14	That is nice to know. I personally liked the idea of wizards having a weakened time period (Not being able to cast their highest level spells). Even if it does not happen all that often due to Conjunctions and all that. Black robes getting the worst end of the stick on this one. On the behalf of all current and budding Black-Robed Wizards: Ouch.
#18 true_blue Apr 09, 2006 13:24:40	I've always played where its just a -1 to damage, spell penetration, etc. I never even thought of ever preventing a wizard from being able to cast certain spells. I certainly think that would be a little much. I dont think the Moons, etc should ever affect something as big as being able to cast higher level spells, etc. Just would seem to be too big of a negative. I usually have more Black Robes than anything else, so its hectic enough to constantly remember the phases and how quick they go around for a +1/-1. I would hate to have to deal with the loss of certain spells heh
#19 zombiegleemax Apr 09, 2006 18:24:40	Let me reiterate. Low Sanction doesn't affect your access to spells. It isn't like choosing to lower your caster level in order to reduce the variable effects of your spells; it's an involuntary condition that reduces the effects of your spells, ability to overcome SR, and make dispel checks. Wizards under the effects of Low Sanction will continue to be able to cast all of the spells they usually can. Even with a caster level lowered to 4th, the wizard can still cast fireball, but it will only do 4d6 damage. Cheers, Cam The wording of the caster level penalty in the DLCS doesn't seem to make an exception for it only affecting variable effects and SR penetration. The Age of Mortals campaign supplement says that caster level penalties that bring your caster level below the level needed to cast your highest level spells makes it so that you can't cast that spell at all. I'm sure the caster level penalties during the war of souls isn't a voluntary reduction either. I have a sorcerer and a white robed wizard in my party. I am trying to make a fair ruling since the party is in a campaign straddling the war of souls. It would seem unfair that the sorcerer is penalised differently for an effect that is worded essentially the same. If you can point me to some text in the DLCS or Towers or High Sorcery or any source that says that the caster level penalty for the moon phase effect only affects variable spell effects and SR, I would be grateful. It would help me justifying my decision to my players.
#20 cam_banks Apr 09, 2006 22:39:32	I have a sorcerer and a white robed wizard in my party. I am trying to make a fair ruling since the party is in a campaign straddling the war of souls. It would seem unfair that the sorcerer is penalised differently for an effect that is worded essentially the same. If you can point me to some text in the DLCS or Towers or High Sorcery or any source that says that the caster level penalty for the moon phase effect only affects variable spell effects and SR, I would be grateful. It would help me justifying my decision to my players. Well, if the sorcerer's suffering from the draining of magic by the souls (which does, in fact, prevent the casting of spells) then the wizard's not casting any spells at all (because there are no Gods of Magic). And if there are Gods of Magic, then the sorcerer is fine. I can't point you to any reference that will help other than to tell you that Low Sanction isn't supposed to prevent you from casting spells, merely lessen their effect. I should have clarified that when I revised the class in Towers of High Sorcery, obviously. Cheers, Cam
#21 zombiegleemax Apr 09, 2006 23:39:59	I can't point you to any reference that will help other than to tell you that Low Sanction isn't supposed to prevent you from casting spells, merely lessen their effect. I should have clarified that when I revised the class in Towers of High Sorcery, obviously. Cheers, Cam Thank you for taking time to answer my questions.
#22 brimstone Apr 10, 2006 14:10:36	I can't point you to any reference that will help other than to tell you that Low Sanction isn't supposed to prevent you from casting spells, merely lessen their effect. I should have clarified that when I revised the class in Towers of High Sorcery, obviously. It might not have been the 3e intention, but that was certainly how it worked in 2nd Edition (at least in the SSI games, it did). But I agree, that is an unbalancing (negatively) factor and it should be played as you say, Cam.
#23 sailorcallie Apr 10, 2006 14:55:23	It might not have been the 3e intention, but that was certainly how it worked in 2nd Edition (at least in the SSI games, it did). But I agree, that is an unbalancing (negatively) factor and it should be played as you say, Cam. The SSI games you say? Example: Champions of Krynn (1990), Death Knights of Krynn (1991) and The Dark Queen of Krynn (1992).
#24 brimstone Apr 10, 2006 16:44:38	The SSI games you say? Example: Champions of Krynn (1990), Death Knights of Krynn (1991) and The Dark Queen of Krynn (1992). Yepper, those are the ones. The way I remember it, you'd get at least one extra spell when in High Sanction. Although, now that I think about it, I don't recall losing a spell slot...it was either you had the extra, or you didn't. But...I may be remembering it wrong. It's been a long time since I played it (and I never did actually get around to playing the third one).
#25 zombiegleemax Apr 10, 2006 17:30:11	Yepper, those are the ones. The way I remember it, you'd get at least one extra spell when in High Sanction. Although, now that I think about it, I don't recall losing a spell slot...it was either you had the extra, or you didn't. But...I may be remembering it wrong. It's been a long time since I played it (and I never did actually get around to playing the third one). If i can recall my 2nd ed. experiences the bonus spell was just that, a bonus spell at high sanction. At low sanction apart from a penalty, they could still prepare and cast the normal amount of spells. Same thing from the bonuses granted by conjunctions, and the Night of the Eye. Back in the day you were granted bonus spells, and....bonuses to saving throws wasn't it? Low sanction just imposed the saving throw penalties if I recall.
#26 sailorcallie Apr 10, 2006 18:00:43	Yepper, those are the ones. The way I remember it, you'd get at least one extra spell when in High Sanction. Although, now that I think about it, I don't recall losing a spell slot...it was either you had the extra, or you didn't. But...I may be remembering it wrong. It's been a long time since I played it (and I never did actually get around to playing the third one). I'm currently playing Champions of Krynn through D-Fend (which is similar to DOSBox) and I've already have Death Knights of Krynn and Dark Queen of Krynn installed and ready to play.
#27 brimstone Apr 11, 2006 12:32:18	If i can recall my 2nd ed. experiences the bonus spell was just that, a bonus spell at high sanction. At low sanction apart from a penalty, they could still prepare and cast the normal amount of spells. I meant to look at DLA and TotL last night, but got busy and forgot. But that might be the case, as that's how I remember it working in the games (which were based off 2nd edition AD&D). I'm currently playing Champions of Krynn through D-Fend (which is similar to DOSBox) and I've already have Death Knights of Krynn and Dark Queen of Krynn installed and ready to play. I tried using MoSlo...but that didn't work very well. So I can't play them on my computer any more (even on the P-166 is was too fast) but they were really good games. My suggestion would be to transplant your CoK characters into DKoK, as chances are, when you finish CoK, your characters will be at a higher level than the starting level of new characters of DKoK. (of course, you might have trouble keeping all your characters alive in the final battle of CoK ;))