Here's a link to some of the preview materials for those interested in taking a look.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a
Anyway...I will tease him (or her if you will) with the idea of a PrC while I roast the soon to be drake food over a hot lava vent.
I told him that he did not like the PrCs at hand then he sould make one, post it here, and I would be willing to make it cool- because that is how I roll. it is that, take a PrC that is already made- which the ones here are as good, if not better then the ones in the books IMO (in fact one of my players is using the Weapon Master PrC made by Khaine- I made a few adjustmnts though), or not take a PrC.
He is currently considering his options.
Thri-Kreen racial feats, practiced manifester feat, revised erudite, psionic/elemental connections, and divine psionics are but a few of the things that may benefit DS.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a
I'm interested to see how they decided to work Practiced Manfester. After lengthy discussions I came to the conclusion that there was no good way to do it.
I'm interested to see how they decided to work Practiced Manfester. After lengthy discussions I came to the conclusion that there was no good way to do it.
I seen that- I had an idea for this that I posted a while back- I cannot remember what is was called...looking...Erudit Lore! That was what it was called.
I would just like some more powers and some additional information on psionic epic material- but i doubt it will have much in the way of the latter.
I'm interested to see how they decided to work Practiced Manfester. After lengthy discussions I came to the conclusion that there was no good way to do it.
Well, I picked up the book last night. Practiced Manfester works exactly like Practiced Spellcater. No focus mechanic at all. I'm surprised by that fact actually.
I have at least two players in my group who will more then likely want the practiced manifester feat.
Speaking of which, Sysane- does it allow you to expend more PSPs as if you were 4 levels higher?
I can see the good and bad side of that if it does- the good in that you can augment your powers to kind of fit the level of encounter you are in, but one the bad- well you do not have that many PSPs to expend and augmenting could totally wipe a manifestor out. For example, IMC there is a mul gladiator 6/ psychic warrior 2 (he has two more levels he gained in the last part of TC, but that is another story- which I am writing). He had almost nothing in the way of power points but it more ten likely drain everything he would have had.
Speaking of which, Sysane- does it allow you to expend more PSPs as if you were 4 levels higher?
I can see the good and bad side of that if it does- the good in that you can augment your powers to kind of fit the level of encounter you are in, but one the bad- well you do not have that many PSPs to expend and augmenting could totally wipe a manifestor out. For example, IMC there is a mul gladiator 6/ psychic warrior 2 (he has two more levels he gained in the last part of TC, but that is another story- which I am writing). He had almost nothing in the way of power points but it more ten likely drain everything he would have had.
It doesn't clearly state whether you can spend more power points with it or not. It effects the character's manifester level so I'd say that it does. Otherwise, the feat is near useless IMO.
It doesn't clearly state whether you can spend more power points with it or not. It effects the character's manifester level so I'd say that it does. Otherwise, the feat is near useless IMO.
*Sniff-sniff* Ooh, I smell errata! :D
Well, I picked up the book last night. Practiced Manfester works exactly like Practiced Spellcater. No focus mechanic at all. I'm surprised by that fact actually.
That's Bullsh*t!
I can't believe after all the discussion about the differences in mechanics between magic and psionics and the issues of balance that are effected by trying to create practiced manifester feat that they went ahead and just made it work the same way as practiced caster!Do they even mention Metapsionic feats?!?! Is it still a 4 level increase?!?!
That's Bullsh*t!
Do they even mention Metapsionic feats?!?! Is it still a 4 level increase?!?!
Yes, it is still a 4 level increase. It sort of vague, but If I understand it correctly it allows the manifester to spend further power points in order to augment and add metapsionic effects.
Yes, it is still a 4 level increase. It sort of vague, but If I understand it correctly it allows the manifester to spend further power points in order to augment and add metapsionic effects.
It's starting to sound like the Complete Psionic is going to rght on par with the Races of the Wild and Races of Destiny for crapsplat books. Sure there is good stuff in both and probably in the Complete psionic as well, but mostly crap.
It's starting to sound like the Complete Psionic is going to rght on par with the Races of the Wild and Races of Destiny for crapsplat books. Sure there is good stuff in both and probably in the Complete psionic as well, but mostly crap.
/off-topic
You did not mention Races of Stone. What do you think about it? I ask because it is the only one of these books I own and I actually like it very much.
I like Races of Stone- but I have to agree with Sage on the uselessness of Rqaces of Destiny- I wish I would have lit my money on fire instead of buying it- it would nave been the same net effect, except I would have more space on my shelf.
:D , Pretty much. There are a few good feats in it and a few decent spells and power. Arguably some of the PrCs are OK. But I'd have to say I would have been happier with only buying about 20 pages of the book for $3.50 rather than 192 for $30.
/off-topic
You did not mention Races of Stone. What do you think about it? I ask because it is the only one of these books I own and I actually like it very much.
As for other splat books, I was impressed by Races of Stone; they actually were able to make Gnomes make sense to me. Overall I would say that 95% of that book is good material, I even like the Goliaths and I love the feats.
All the other Complete books get my approval, though I would say I like the Complete Warrior and Adventurer the best, and the complete arcane the least (not because there is anything wrong with it, just because there were so many books already out there for arcane spellcasters). All the Enviroment books are pretty decent too, but contain a relatively high (maybe 30%) crap content.
Libre Morits is golden. I don't own Hero's of Horror, but I had it for a while before I gave it to a friend, and it looked pretty good on the fluffy side even, which is impressive. I have Hero's of battle and was not impressed. Weapon's of Legacy is completely pointless, though I like the basic idea, I think that the Midnight Campaign Settting did a much better job with it. I'll hold my judgement on the Maigc of Incarnum as I haven't been able to convince myself to bear through and read it.
The spell compendium is very useful for book condesing purposes and has a lot of good new material too. The Draconomicon is wonderful. The Planar Handbook is So-So.
And I think that about cover's my opinions on the splatbooks
It's nice to see you haunting around the boards again, Terminus! I didn't notice it was you at first, but I must say that that is a cool Avatar. ;)
However, "incarnum" magic could have been the "earth" magic that rajaat tried tapping into and failed miserably at long ago. It's an idea.
Good to have you back though- now if only I could get Khaine to kick the Eberron habit he has been hyped up on and come home too!
On another note, I just picked up Complete Psionic. EXCELLENT STUFF! There's a lot of things relevant to a DS campaign, from the Divine Mind and the Lurk all the way to Elemental Stewards and a ton of excellent feats. Everyone needs this book
!!
Good to have you back.
When I saw the preview and read some comments on the PSI-Board, I was concerned how the mantles would fit in my PoV of psionics. I wasn't sold on the idea psi being conected to gods, but fortunately this concern was pointless.
Here are my opinions about the classes and how I'm going to integrate in my Campaign.
The Ardent: The Ardent was the class that supprised me at most in positive way. Although the mantles may appear like domains the mechanics and the idea are very different. The ardent's mantles doesn't have to be connected with any gods, but they can represent the ardent's philosophy. In this is how I'm going to use it, as there are no gods on athas. I can take the class almost as it is and that is something that doesn't happen so often when it comes to the fluff part. The only thing I didn't quite figured out yet, if the ardent gets all granted powers of every mantle, or just his from his primary mantles or something else....
The Divine Mind: The Divine Mind is the only class that would need to be tweaked, as the divine mind seems to be the psinioc variant of the paladin. With having no gods on athas the fluff part of this class will have some changes, although I haven't dicided yet how these will look like. My favorite idea right now is, that a Divine Mind "thinks" that he serves a good and even worships him, but all his powers come from himself and the passion he brings in worshipping his false good.
The Lurk: The Lurk seems like a solid psionic class with some nice abilities. The best part of the lurk is, that, although he has something like a sneak attack (sneak attack only when psionically focused), there is still room for the Mind's Eye's Psychic Rouge. I'm going to adapt this class as it is and this just makes me happy.
I also took a brief look at the feats, and, although most of the racial feats are unsuable for me, there are still enough feats left that will keep me months buisy to translate them in german for my group. :surrender
Although there are 5 feats for wilders, I'm missing a feat that would lower the chance for Psychic Enervation.
Some complained that the complete lists for psions and psychic warriors are printed, but I have to say, that I don't think that this is realy a big deal. Actually, I think it helps to choose powers, as I don't have to look into two books. Now I can compare the powers directly and it won't happen (like with magic) that I see one power that seem interesting, look in the other book and forgett what I saw in the book before. Just my opinion.
There are two points that don't like.
1. Although the new format is nice, it's mostly pretty useless for may campaign, and therefore having only 8 additional PrC's (maybe even less, when I'll take a closer look at them) is just not that much.
2. There could have been more support for the wilder. I like the idea of this class a lot, but as it is now, it is a very poor choice IMHO.
All together, I'm not dissapointed. It's a good addition for me and now have a lot of work to do, translating the stuff I need into german for my group.
There are two points that don't like.
1. Although the new format is nice, it's mostly pretty useless for may campaign, and therefore having only 8 additional PrC's (maybe even less, when I'll take a closer look at them) is just not that much.
2. There could have been more support for the wilder. I like the idea of this class a lot, but as it is now, it is a very poor choice IMHO.
All together, I'm not dissapointed. It's a good addition for me and now have a lot of work to do, translating the stuff I need into german for my group.
I don't have the Complete Psionic yet, but I have to agree that I don't like the longer format for PrCs either. The setting information that they include is basically worthless to me, I don't even find it to be very well written. The Wilder is an appealing class, but does need some more work and support. Especially as you mentioned the Psychic Enervention aspect of the class, which just gets unacceptably risky when the chance is over 10%.
Here are two options pf a feat for you because WotC didn't make it for you:
Enervation Resistance
Though hard practice and focus you have learned to resist the effects of psychic enervation.
Prerequisites: Autohypnosis 8 ranks, Wild Surge Class Feature
Benefits: When you perform a wild surge there is only a 5% chance of psychic enervation poer two maifester levels gained, round up. For instance if you performed a Wild Surge for a three manifester level boost you would only have a 10% chance of psychic enervation instead of the normal 15%.
or
Enervation Resistance
Though hard practice and focus you have learned to resist the effects of psychic enervation.
Prerequisites: Autohypnosis 8 ranks, Wild Surge Class Feature
Benefits: Whenever you perform a Wild Surge and fail your Psychic Enervation check you may make an Autohypnosis check to avoid being dazed. The DC for the check is equal to 15+3 per manifester level gained through the Wild Surge. In other words:
Wild Surge +1=DC 18, Wild Surge +2=DC 21, Wild Surge +3=DC 24, Wild Surge +4=DC 27, Wild Surge +5=DC 30, and Wild Surge +6=DC 33.
You still lose power points equal to your Wilder level whether you succeed or fail.
Circlet of Psychic Enervation - http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6562057#post6562057
Just scroll down and you will see it. Now this item may or may not be appearing in the much spoken of, but never seen, Equipment Guide. I have not seen what the fellows at Athas.org have done to this but I was under the impression that it may be included.
As a nod to this threads topic, well I hate the idea that they have a class called the Divine Mind- only because that was the name of the cleric version of the Cerebremancer I have IMC.
As it relates to Dark Sun, here are some thoughts/ideas that popped into my head as I was reading the Ardent and Divine Mind classes:
Ardent:
When I first read this, I instantly thought "OMG, this sounds like a class that would have been *huge* during the Cleansing Wars." For those who haven't read about it yet, the class gets it's psionic powers specifically from their dedication to a driving principle/concept/cause/etc., and given how psionically-active Athas is, IMO it fits in perfectly...especially during a multi-millenia-long war.
The first thought I had regarding this class is that, perhaps, the term "templar" came from those individuals who, due to their dedication to the Champions, became Ardents. Once the war ended, all these Ardents would have run into a situation where their original cause was (obviously) defunct, and the now-Sorcerer-Kings had the new option of bestowing powers themselves to their templars (a much better option for them, since it gives them full control over their servants), so in the following millenia the Ardent class would have "died out" as a templar class and have been replaced by the true templars. My thoughts on this, of course, comes from the statements in RaFoaDK re: templars during the Cleansing Wars...it's a nice way to make that statement pseudo-canon with a logical, reasonable explaination.
The second thought regarding this class is, of course, that it's possible that one or more of the Champions themselves may have been Ardents. Rajaat had to be careful about which psionic-capable individuals he chose to be his Champions, as the "character profile" needed was obviously pretty restrictive, so any psionic-capable individuals that had dedicated themselves to a cause (Ardents) and whose cause was in-line with Rajaat's needs, would have been excellent candidates for Champion status. Not only that, but since the Ardent class has built-in allowances for "changing one's beliefs" as the character progresses in levels, it even gives an additional driving factor for the rebellion itself - those Ardent Champions that had focused themselves on returning Athas to human-kind, specifically, or focused on destruction of their specific race, may have found themselves in a position where either they "changed their beliefs" or else went along with their current ones, forcing them into taking revolutionary measures against Rajaat.
In regards to Champions-as-Ardents, I think Hamanu would be the perfect fit, especially if you want to incorporate his background as described in RaFoaDK into your version of "canon Dark Sun" - Rajaat takes a non-psionic individual who has an overwhelming sense of motivation and drive towards "the cause" and bestows both magic and psionic powers upon him...so what better psionic class than the Ardent? True, it doesn't give martial weapons as standard weapon proficiencies, but at least one mantle gives Weapon Focus as a granted power and the BAB is that of the PsyWar (I think), so if you don't want to give him fighter/warrior levels there's still the ability to justify why he would have had the Scorcher (I haven't read far enough into mantles to know if any give you martial weapon proficiency in one or more weapons, just know that one gives Weapon Focus).
Borys is, of course, another Champion whom I think fits with the Ardent class really well:
- He seems to have been a "multi-purpose" Champion, as he was given a sword and definitely was involved in melee combat with the dwarves, "leading from the front" as it were; could be PsyWar, but could also be an Ardent that has focused towards combat- and command- related mantles.
- Has potent mind-affecting psionic abilities but otherwise all the fluff material describing him (that I can think of) doesn't really describe him as being a particularly combat-oriented *or* psionically-oriented individual; in the PP he mind-slays at least one individual, but otherwise he pretty much just stomped around smushing dwarves and such rather than manifesting or casting. Then there's the fact that he was the instigator of the dragon metamorphosis, leading us to the general idea that he's an egoist...that's a lot of different fields to cover. Although this fits with the PsyWar role multiclassed with Egoist, if he were an Ardent instead he could do it all *without* having to multiclass. That's a HUGE plus in my mind.
- He leads the rebellion, and also offers himself up as the first Dragon...both of which could be construed as resulting from his "dedication to the cause" as opposed to simply being a ploy to gain more power. Given that the other Champions didn't seem to be expecting Borys to go whacky after the transformation, my guess is that they really didn't know what to expect at all...and for an evil creature, to accept such an "unknown" situation such as that seems more like something an Ardent would do as opposed to a regular psion/wizard.
Beyond Borys and Hamanu, Sacha and Wyan both come to mind as possible Ardents - they stuck with Rajaat despite the fact that they should have known they'd get screwed, and for evil creatures that seems more like a matter of dedication than "in my best interests."
Divine Mind:
Although this class obviously doesn't belong in "modern-day" Athas, might this be the explaination for the Old Gods? IIRC Ktandeo mentions in Verdant Passage that the "old gods existed and were powerful, but faded away for some reason" (or something like that), and of course there are various other sources that mention god-worship but state that the gods didn't grant powers, and the only clerics were the elemental ones. However, given that the Green Age was a time of psionics, I sorta like the idea that the gods were, in a sense, real - those that believed in them were able to "channel their power" in the form of psionics which, of course, really just stem from within the creature themselves. This would have given a justifiable reason to believe in the gods - their followers demonstrated powers that, although similar to the psionic abilities prevalent everywhere, were in some ways "special" or "unique" and different enough that it could have led people to truly believe in the existence of these outer planar divinities.
Of course, since the Old Gods are no longer around, then you need an explaination for why the Divine Mind class would have faded out...which I think can be explained by the Time of Magic and Cleansing Wars. You've got all these people believing in divine entities to explain why some individuals are able to manifest powers (and granted powers/abilities) that the "common man" doesn't, when a new form of power pops up - magic. Suddenly, the abilities of the "priests" aren't nearly as special as they once were, so the number and devotion of followers decreases. Then, war starts...and it goes on, and on, and on. Those still believing in the gods find their prayers unanswered - why would you allow entire races to be killed? Why didn't you stop the razing of Bodach? - and so their faith is shaken and, in turn, they begin losing their ability to manifest their "divine powers." As the war drags on, the gods "fade out" not because they existed in the first place, but because there's no one left that believes in them enough to be able to manifest powers in their name.
Discuss. :D
I am going to write...someone over there at Wizards! I hate the way they are doing the stat block write ups (as previously mentioned by others), also with that, the PrC layout and magical/psionic item formats totally leave me shaking my head in disgust!
I will not by another book that is laid out in this format. Period!
I have no skills or ability to do so, but I am sure there is someone here in the boards who could organize a poll or a petition that we could give Wizards t have then stop putting the stuff in this crazy format because frankly I hate it and I know I am not alone in this.
Okay I have my copy and wish someone would come over here and put me out of my misery!
I am going to write...someone over there at Wizards! I hate the way they are doing the stat block write ups (as previously mentioned by others), also with that, the PrC layout and magical/psionic item formats totally leave me shaking my head in disgust!
I will not by another book that is laid out in this format. Period!
I have no skills or ability to do so, but I am sure there is someone here in the boards who could organize a poll or a petition that we could give Wizards t have then stop putting the stuff in this crazy format because frankly I hate it and I know I am not alone in this.
I only share your position with the format of the PrCs, and then only, when it is about generic accessoures (like Complete or Races of series). I'd prefer the new PrC format when it is for campaign based accesoures (like Eberron or Forgotten Realms). IMO the new monster stats block is pretty usefull and I use it successfully in my campaign. I also like the new magic/psionic item format, because IMO it's more clearly arrenged. I think, the problem is that many are used to the "old" format, and, as with most things people are used to, they have difficulties to adopt changes.
I already used the new format for the grafts I created for the psurlons, and I find this format is easy to work with, even if the number of exemple to base the wording on are pretty few.
For the items, I also find the new format interesting even if I don't use it, yet. All the items I did are in the old format, and would require quite a bit of time just to rewrite in the new format, time that I like more to spend on creating new things. For me, and from what is my impression for the moment, the new format in the books is space-filler. If the items in the DMG would have been written that way, the magic items chapters would have been a book by itself! Perhaps some of the next items I'll do for the boards will use the new format, just so I try it.
The same is true in IMO for the PrCs. I use the old format and I don't think I'll ever use the new. First, english is not my first language, and, as much as I like doing PrC, I find the parts of the new format somewhat redundant, and again, space-filling.
For the monsters, I haven't used the new format yet, but I'll surely try. The difference seems mainly in the stats block.
All in all, WotC istself don't seems to be fixed if they use or not the new format. Some books, and the magazines, use some or not of the new formats, I'd like to see an official answer as to which will be the format from now on, even if the fans and unofficial creators like us would continue to use the format we think is the best.
Anyways, my
On a somewhat related subject, how does everyone feel about the change to Astral Constructs (max 1 in existence at a time)? I really don't feel like debating it, per-se (I'd post to the psionics board if that were the case), but I'm curious how my fellow Dark Sun players/DMs feel about it since, for obvious reasons, the shaper in my group is all upset about it.
On a somewhat related subject, how does everyone feel about the change to Astral Constructs (max 1 in existence at a time)? I really don't feel like debating it, per-se (I'd post to the psionics board if that were the case), but I'm curious how my fellow Dark Sun players/DMs feel about it since, for obvious reasons, the shaper in my group is all upset about it.
IMHO it's ok, because IRRC you are able to build your construct as you wish, but if you summon monsters, the creatures you get are allready fix.
I just want to say some more words about the new PrC-format:
As I said, I prefer the old format when it is in generic Books like the Complete series, because, if I buy such a book, I want to have mechanics and so that I can make my own fluff from it. BUT, when it comes to campaign based books, I'd like to see the new format, because I want to have more knowledge about the world, guilds or specific oragnisations. If I want a PrC for Dark Sun I surley don't look in any Forgotten Realms or Eberron book, because I don't want to adopt those. But if I'm playing for example Forgotten Realms, and want to play ...I don't know.... a harper, then I'd like to know as much as possible about this organisation.
As you all - I guess - I would have liked to have the PrC in the Complete Psionics in the old format but therefore more of them, but I'd also like to see the new format for the Dark Sun PRC Appendix(es).
Constructs are powerful- my group faced one an Astral Construct V and they were getting blasted- they my not be fancy but they can deal a whooping! The only reason one of them did not die is the fact that they have Stonecutter, which is a +1 bane vs. construct weapon at this point.
Up until now, the Shaper in my group used the following combat tactic almost exclusively (note that I run a high-level munchkin DS game, but the following is something that any high-level psion could do):
Round -
1 - Temporal Acceleration, and create one or more 9th-level ACs, and the rest of his rounds (if any are left) cast buffs on himself.
2 - ACs use the Constrict ability, and their insane grapple bonus, to pick up everything they can (literally) get their hands on. As long as there is still room on the battle field for more ACs, and there are a large enough number of targets still available, then he creates another AC.
3+ - Same as the 2nd round, although by now there's normally either A) not enough room left for any more or B) the battle is dying down to the point where it'd be a complete waste (rather than just "overkill") to bring in another.
Once he no longer has any need to bring in more ACs, he then starts Crystalizing anything that has yet to be grappled and/or killed by his ACs or the other PCs. If there is nothing appropriate to crystalize, he instead does random things that are basically just time-wasters for his character while his ACs continue smashing stuff.
That right there is why I'm fine with the new ruling - a Shaper basically had (under EPH rules) no real reason to take more than one or two offensive powers beyond AC, since those things are so darned effective at taking out opponents left and right, especially at high levels. At least now I get to hear something other than "that guy needs to make a Fortitude save" and I get to say something other than "don't bother rolling, that creature is not going to beat your grapple check."