Oriental Parts of Greyhawk?
Lands west of Zeif
Wu Jen in Greyhawk
Celestial Empire
New continent East of the Flanaess
Some other threads on this subject:
Oriental Parts of Greyhawk?
Lands west of Zeif
Wu Jen in Greyhawk
Celestial Empire
New continent East of the Flanaess
Thanks. I'm trying to find a way to justify my character using a Kusari-Gama weapon (spiked chain with sickle at end, found in DMG 145). You seem pretty knowledgable about the subject, any idea of where my character would have learned to use said weapon while visiting and then move back to the main land?
Thanks. I'm trying to find a way to justify my character using a Kusari-Gama weapon (spiked chain with sickle at end, found in DMG 145). You seem pretty knowledgable about the subject, any idea of where my character would have learned to use said weapon while visiting and then move back to the main land?
I'd just assume the character bought the thing at a second-hand shop in Greyhawk City, personally, and not worry about how it got there.
There's really nothing (or very little) official on the lands west of the Flanaess, but if I were to venture into noncanonical tracts, it might have come from the land of Behow to the west of the Sea of Dust, or some such.
Thanks. I'm trying to find a way to justify my character using a Kusari-Gama weapon (spiked chain with sickle at end, found in DMG 145). You seem pretty knowledgable about the subject, any idea of where my character would have learned to use said weapon while visiting and then move back to the main land?
From an assassin guild. Aside from the kama portion of the weapon, I don't see any utilitarian purpose other than a [terror?] tool for assassins. I don't think they made it to cut grass from a distance. :P
From an assassin guild. Aside from the kama portion of the weapon, I don't see any utilitarian purpose other than a [terror?] tool for assassins. I don't think they made it to cut grass from a distance. :P
Assassin Guilds would not use a weapon like this unless they had an Oriental theme, which no Assassin Guild in Greyhawk has (to my knowledge). The Kusari-Gama was a unique weapon found only truly in Japan, therefore I doubt a European / Nordic / Scottish / Arabian (all of which Greyhawk is based on) Assassin Guild would have ever devised a similar weapon. The weapon wasn't just used by assassins or ninjas in Japan, it was used by a few other groups. The problem with the DMG version of this weapon is that it is a slashing weapon but was rarely (if ever) used as that. Instead users would whip around the weighted part to either disarm or prevent an enemy from using their sword and then rush in with the Kama part. It would be pretty hard to swing the Kama part around and use it as a reach weapon, although this is what most foreigners think how the weapon was used.
I think we have encountered one samurai who had been accidentally teleported to the Flanaess. So, I think it would work if you character just found the weapon laying under some dust and other junk in the back room of a weapons shop. Could have been sitting there for years and nearly forgotten. I wish I had thought of this when a player of mine wanted nunchukus.
I wish I had thought of this when a player of mine wanted nunchukus.
Flindbars!
I have to say that i am not that well versed in Greyhawk but that is one thing i should have thought of.
Better luck next time for me I guess.
Personally, I think the two Kusari-Gama combo is pretty cheap lol. Right now I'm going to go Swashbuckler 3 then the rest Fighter. Getting to third level Swashbuckler gives me my INT (in addition to my STR) bonus on my damage for each and because Kusari-Gama are light weapons I can two weapon wield them without a huge penalty. The most important part is that I have reach and can disarm / trip with each. With Improved Trip in my arsenal I should be able to do massive damage.
Thanks for the help, I'll check this forum every little bit if anyone has any other ideas. L8R.
Assassin Guilds would not use a weapon like this unless they had an Oriental theme, which no Assassin Guild in Greyhawk has (to my knowledge).
IIRC, the second oldest [Advanced] Dungeons & Dragon campaign setting have Kwai-Chang-Caine-inspired monks running around Oerth.
:P
From my understanding, yes, but I can't quote a reliable source about it (except Fate of Istus but it hardly qualifies..)
What does FoI have to say about it? Does it mention Kara Tur by name?
What does FoI have to say about it? Does it mention Kara Tur by name?
Yes, in at least two places:
page 110
Last but not least, a golden box has appeared in the inner courts of Hesuel Ilshar at the very place which once opened onto Kara-Tur. The descendants of the original monks from Kara-Tur amount to a faction in themselves. Oriental creatures that crossed over from Kara-Tur at the time. etc..
and page 117
A semi-permanent one-way gate to western T'u Lung in the land of Kara-Tur is thereby created
Note that while FoI clearly establishes that natives from Kara-Tur crossed over to the Tilvanot Plateau, it isn't clear whether the gate that took them there was of the interplanar or intraplanar kind. Thus the question: was Kara-Tur intended as a far-away part of WoG or not?
Devin
SB monks derived from non-Suel looking folks from another dimension? A load of (Hong-Kong) Phooey!
Yes, in at least two places:
page 110 Last but not least, a golden box has appeared in the inner courts of Hesuel Ilshar at the very place which once opened onto Kara-Tur. The descendants of the original monks from Kara-Tur amount to a faction in themselves. Oriental creatures that crossed over from Kara-Tur at the time. etc..
and page 117 A semi-permanent one-way gate to western T'u Lung in the land of Kara-Tur is thereby created
Note that while FoI clearly establishes that natives from Kara-Tur crossed over to the Tilvanot Plateau, it isn't clear whether the gate that took them there was of the interplanar or intraplanar kind. Thus the question: was Kara-Tur intended as a far-away part of WoG or not?
Hmm, it's interesting...so they're saying there are Suel/T'u Lung descended monks still in the SB? I do kinda find that hard to believe considering their fanatical racism...but maybe that's their "dirty little secret." Kinda like Hitler possibly having been (at least partly) Jewish. That's a rumor I heard anyway. No offense to my Hebrew friends intended!
Of course it's not as if Caucasians (or their Oerthly equivalents) couldn't (or haven't already) come up with martial arts on their own. Isn't there a uniquely European MA style? I know Brazilian slaves created capoeira.
Hmm, it's interesting...so they're saying there are Suel/T'u Lung descended monks still in the SB? I do kinda find that hard to believe considering their fanatical racism...but maybe that's their "dirty little secret."
Nope. What happened was that the ancestors of the SB who settled on the Tilvanot Plateau soon encountered problems similar to those of the Empire (too many slaves, bickering noblemen, etc..). Then, a gate opened through which came oriental characters & monsters. The SB (a mere faction of the Suel natives, back then) allied itself with a group of oriental monks which had a similar philosophy. They learnt martial arts from them, which allowed them to gain the upper hand and take charge of all the natives. Those monks (well, their descendants rather) live secluded in the Suel city and don't mingle with the other (Suel) inhabitants.
Of course, the victor being able to rewrite history, all Suel folks now believe the SB always had such abilities at its disposal.
So, yes, in a way it's their "dirty little secret".
Personally, I don't like it. I prefer to think they stole the secrets of monkhood (does such word exist?) from the Baklunish prior to the Twin Cataclysms. As I said, hardly conclusive...
Personally, I don't like it. I prefer to think they stole the secrets of monkhood (does such word exist?) from the Baklunish prior to the Twin Cataclysms. As I said, hardly conclusive...
Yeah Fate of Istus is definitely a low point in Greyhawk adventures....at least Castle Greyhawk was a parody.
I have been doing a little bit of Suel Imperium history filler for my SCAP campaign. One of the things I wanted was to pinpoint the time period that the Suel became so racially centric. What I came up with was an island nation to the south of Changar that threw off the shackles of the Imperium and became independent largely because of the descendents of the initial Suel conquerers. These "half-breeds" basically have the genetic predisposition for arcane magic of the Suel combined with the Kersi's own predisposition of the 'druidical' arts. These hierophant spellcasters spanked the Suel and cast them from their island which eventually led to Suel philosophers calling for racial purity. This civic eventually became known as the Way of the Scarlet Sign. The whole martial artist/red pajamas bit I felt was a 'modern' mutation that those who fled to the Tilvanot coopted for their own purposes.
Yeah Fate of Istus is definitely a low point in Greyhawk adventures....at least Castle Greyhawk was a parody.
Well, while the part about the SB was kind of dumb and the whole adventure was a weird way to justify the transition from 1e to 2e, I still think the description of many cities from all over the setting was of decent quality. Not fantastic, but decent.
Oh, and I liked the part located in the Pale. Had quite a bit of fun with "Reifus the Paganhammer"
As for the SB and their monkish ways - my explanation is that the mind over matter stuff came east over the mountains from Suhfang into the Imperium fairly early on. Trade (and migrations - since the Bakluni may have started off in the lands north of Suhfang) also carried these traditions into the Baklunish sphere. Suhfang is the ultimate source of both traditions.
As for why the Suel got all supremicist - that's a good explanation, Lassiviren - the Suel must have been involed, both in trade and war with the peoples south of them (two good reasons: route to the sea and spices!) - so they may have picked up their attitudes from their dealings with there. The confrontation with the Baklunish is probably what galvanised the supremacists into forming the SB (ironically using mind over matter techniques that originated in Suhfang).
P.
I still think the description of many cities from all over the setting was of decent quality. Not fantastic, but decent.
Oh, and I liked the part located in the Pale. Had quite a bit of fun with "Reifus the Paganhammer"
The maps were garbage. I really don't remember the city descriptions, but I do remember the Wintershiven adventure being pretty good, so I guess it wasn't a complete waste. But I do completely dismiss the entire magical plague is created to destroy 1st edition assassins, monks, bards etc. line. That, on top of the oriental monk gate, was just too much.
The confrontation with the Baklunish is probably what galvanised the supremacists into forming the SB (ironically using mind over matter techniques that originated in Suhfang).
P.
Yeah I never liked the idea of the SB getting 'kung fu' from the Baklunish. It makes a lot more sense if they were established this way from an origin point for to the west (Suhfang) which is also the same vector that established 'kung fu' in the Baklunish lands. Although the Baklunish would have been primarily on the western side of the continental divide and then came east during the Hegira. I also see Xan Yae and her style of martial arts to be primarily weapon based and Zuoken to have been the primogen of the unarmed style being a more recent off-shoot.
Yeah I never liked the idea of the SB getting 'kung fu' from the Baklunish. It makes a lot more sense if they were established this way from an origin point for to the west (Suhfang) which is also the same vector that established 'kung fu' in the Baklunish lands. Although the Baklunish would have been primarily on the western side of the continental divide and then came east during the Hegira. I also see Xan Yae and her style of martial arts to be primarily weapon based and Zuoken to have been the primogen of the unarmed style being a more recent off-shoot.
I personally always assumed that the Suel and Baklunish didn't "recieve" their unarmed martial arts traditions from anyone. After all, in our own world, Europe and the area thereabouts had a rich tradition of systemized unarmed combat methods, from ancient Greek wrestling to French savate kickboxing.
Their association with Asia and Asia alone in the modern mind is mostly drawn from pop culture and great marketing by Asian-style martial arts instructors.
Assassin Guilds would not use a weapon like this unless they had an Oriental theme. The Kusari-Gama was a unique weapon found only truly in Japan, therefore I doubt a European / Nordic / Scottish / Arabian (all of which Greyhawk is based on) Assassin Guild would have ever devised a similar weapon.
Just because that's how it happened in our world doesn't mean it had to happene that way in Greyhawk. Maybe it's an old Flan weapon or pre cataclysm Suel that is still taught in a few schools hidden away in the world. Just because the Suel are not from an oriental abckground doesn't mean that they wouldn't have developed a hand to hand martial arts system. In the Scarlet Brotherhood book it states that the Brotherhood saw a useful purpose in being able to attack without weapons. What a better way for a society that operates from subterfuge to allay suspision by aperain before it's enemies unarmed and yet still able to kill them. It's a fantasy world after all so the rules of how things worked here don't have to apply there. Personally I really like genere blending to come up with something more unique. Take the Flan for instance. They appear to be more of a Native American/ Celtic crossbreed in the way they are described and presented. I think it's much better than being able to just label them as celts or Natives. In my campaign I thinki of the Old Sule Empire being very much like Melnibone from the Elric Novels. Seeing as it was one of the original influences and that Black Razor is a very obvious copy of Stormbringer just makes more sense to me and allows for a lot more details that you can monkey with.
But in the end it comes down to what you and your DM/players think works best. It's your game, have fun with it and don't worry over the details too much or it stopes being fun and just becomes work.
After all, in our own world, Europe and the area thereabouts had a rich tradition of systemized unarmed combat methods, from ancient Greek wrestling to French savate kickboxing.
Their association with Asia and Asia alone in the modern mind is mostly drawn from pop culture and great marketing by Asian-style martial arts instructors.
The Baklunish are a little too "eastern" themed for me to think that this developed in a void, although it certainly might be the case. I would be highly inclined to say that Xan Yae is a Suhfang deity that was simply brought with them from the west.
Although the SB martial art could have developed independently, similar to savate I think it probably happened by the Suel recognizing something useful and developing it for their own purpose.
Had savate been well established decades before French sailors made it to China I would be more inclined to just say the SB was formed by some brilliant Suel philosophers that had an epiphany. I think it much more likely that they subverted it and tainted it for their own fell uses.
Just call it a "sickle." It's the same tool.
Uh -- I think everyone went off topic with the whole "martial arts" thing involving unarmed combat.
We do that a lot around here.
Well the unofficial name for the Oriental parts of Greyhawk are "Celistial Imperium" a lot of people use the Suhfang as the name of the nation. So you could just come up with a story that your character found it in a dross shop and a monk of Xan Yae (the monks most tied to weapons in Greyhawk) showed him how to use it.
Oh, is that all?
Just call it a "sickle." It's the same tool.
Well, a Kusari-Gama isn't the same tool
It is a balanced sickle with a chain attacked to it and a weight at the end of the chain, a little more "exotic" than just a mere sickle.Well, a Kusari-Gama isn't the same tool
Maybe the PC invented it? Somebody has to invent all those cool weapons after all.
People everywhere develop unarmed fighting systems. It simply isn't some uniquely Asian thing.
And the reason they are mostly associated with Asian systems in the modern mind is because Europeans abandoned unarmed systems earlier, and didn't maintain the drills as a calisthenic or cultural artifact. Why not complain that Asians don't have the same kind of fancy close order gun drills, or anything resembling the Lippizaner stallions?
That aside, it'll largely depend on your triad. There's no hard canon about oriental lands in GH. What there is is based off sources that your triad may or may not accept as canon. Your best bet would be to tie it into a sect of Xan Yae in the Baklunish lands.
P.
Well, my first question would be - why do you need such an exotic weapon?
That aside, it'll largely depend on your triad. There's no hard canon about oriental lands in GH. What there is is based off sources that your triad may or may not accept as canon. Your best bet would be to tie it into a sect of Xan Yae in the Baklunish lands.
P.
Well the reason I want such an exotic weapon is I was looking for things that have reach and can attack adjacent, much like a Spiked Chain or whip, but I wanted something interesting and different. I didn't want to make Spiked Chain Fighter #1368. I was considering going for a Whip Dagger, but all the special whips are found in either Eberron or in old 3.0 material. Only one I could find is Kusari-Gama. I might just say my character made it (he does have ranks in Craft (Weaponsmithing)), but only time will tell.
I thought the Kusari-Gama already had stats in the Oriental Adventures book? I would be surprised if it had reach, I am not a ninja-file, but I thought the chain was specifically for disarming opponents. I don't really see it being used like a spiked chain at all...
Yes, there is an old Kusari-Gama in the Oriental Adventures book, but it was remade in the DMG. I have no idea how it could be used efficently as a reach weapon (and slashing at that) in real life, but that is what it is listed as. In real life, assassins used to use the weapon to disarm or prevent an enemy to move their weapon with the chain, and rush in with the sickle part. In the D&D world, the weapon is used as a slashing spiked chain =) Don't ask me how.
So change the name of the silly thing to the chain-and-sickle and use it. Is it really that absurd to think that only Asians would ever want to whack somebody upside the head with a length of chain, or feel that having a sickle attached to it would be useful?
People everywhere develop unarmed fighting systems. It simply isn't some uniquely Asian thing.
And the reason they are mostly associated with Asian systems in the modern mind is because Europeans abandoned unarmed systems earlier, and didn't maintain the drills as a calisthenic or cultural artifact. Why not complain that Asians don't have the same kind of fancy close order gun drills, or anything resembling the Lippizaner stallions?
Any idea how I would convince a Special Missions person to get access to a Kusari-Gama (or chain-and-sickle ;))? You do post in the Keoland forums all the time, right? Maybe you'd have some "insider advice" for me =)
Any idea how I would convince a Special Missions person to get access to a Kusari-Gama (or chain-and-sickle ;))? You do post in the Keoland forums all the time, right? Maybe you'd have some "insider advice" for me =)
Well, since you want a direct answer:
Barring something I'm not aware of my advice would be don't bother.
The weapon is not from an approved source. (Check the LGCS, page 62.) Therefore your chances of getting access to it are between non-existent and zero. Unless the weapon appears in one of the books listed there, preferably as a player source, you won't ever get access to it.
You probably should have asked this over in the LG forums, and you would have gotten the answer sooner.
And yes, I post in the Keoland forums all the time. That's because I am the list owner. (Not to mention former POC, and a current core editor.)
Well, since you want a direct answer:
Barring something I'm not aware of my advice would be don't bother.
The weapon is not from an approved source. (Check the LGCS, page 62.) Therefore your chances of getting access to it are between non-existent and zero. Unless the weapon appears in one of the books listed there, preferably as a player source, you won't ever get access to it.
You probably should have asked this over in the LG forums, and you would have gotten the answer sooner.
And yes, I post in the Keoland forums all the time. That's because I am the list owner. (Not to mention former POC, and a current core editor.)
How is the DMG not an approved source? LGCS page 62 lists the DMG there. I knew it was a long shot from the start, but it seems like a fun alternative to the boring spike chain builds already out there. I'll see how it goes in a month or two when I write up my proposal. Thanks for your help.
How is the DMG not an approved source? LGCS page 62 lists the DMG there
Eh, if that's the case, I want access to the antimatter rifle. It's in the DMG too after all... :P
How is the DMG not an approved source? LGCS page 62 lists the DMG there. I knew it was a long shot from the start, but it seems like a fun alternative to the boring spike chain builds already out there. I'll see how it goes in a month or two when I write up my proposal. Thanks for your help.
I thought you said you were getting it from OA?
However, as Mortepierre rather excessvely highlights, such options are not used in the LG campaign, any more than racial substitution levels are available, special mission or not. So you are still looking for something that simply won't be approved, however much it might be better than just another spiked cheese . . . I mean chain, build.
Why not just have some monster race in your world specialize with the weapon? There would be a place to train with it.
Because I didn't create the setting nor do I have control over it. I'm speaking about Living Greyhawk (LG), not a home game. In my home game I played a Psychic (Erudite actually), but in LG you have to follow special rules so everyone knows what page they are on when they meet up and play with people they've never seen before.
I've always loved playing "the weird thing" or "something different" and I'm looking for a way to do that in LG. Right now my main in LG is a Jinnbonded Dragon Heritage Born of Three Thunders Sorc, which is fun, but I'm looking for something else that is different and I have a Special Mission and a group of friends willing to play with me in my Special Mission. I'll see what the Triads let me request for a Special Mission. Considering that I can travel around and have places to play games in Keoland (primary), Geoff and Veluna, I might get an interesting option some where.