1. Water Clerics get Fire From the Sky as a Domain. One of the domain spells is Burning Hands. Not quite in flavour IMHO.
2. Elemental access to spells. Theres nothing stopping a Cleric of Water using fire spells or a Fire Cleric using water spells. Athas.org seem to have more or less fixed this by tweaking spells like Flamestrike so each elemental cleric gets a version they can use. Doesn't seem right that any cleric can cast Windwalk for example.
I was thinking of making a houserule that when you pick an element you get access to all spells from it and access to level 1-3 spells fromadjacent elements and no spell access to an opposed element. Paraelemental clerics get ful access to 2 elements and no access to the other 2 elements. Something similar to 2nd ed.
eg.
A water cleric gets all elemental water spells, no access to fire and level 1-3 access to Air and Earth. A Rain cleric gets ful access to Air and Water spells but no fire and earth.
I was also going to design some initiate feats for Air/Earth/Fire/Water clerics and are wondering what people here would think.
. You have discovered the: Clerical Error.There are three solutions to this error. One is mine, just following the link:
Elemental Cleric (Spell Lists Varient)
Another is Shei-nad's though I still can't remember where it is
. That one is the closest to the one you where preposing. It's downloadable in PDF format, but we'll either have to wait until someone points us to where it is or until I can find it.The third is a quick fix which goes as follows: Clerics do not channel positive or negative energy, they instead channel their element. Remove the clerical ability to spontaneously cast healing or wounding spells and their ability to turn/rebuke undead. Add the ability for clerics to spontaneously cast spells of their elemental domain from the PHB (Earth, Air, Fire, Water) and the ability to turn/rebuke their element and it's opposite.
Otherwise, I use the same spell progression, although rather than a domain per-se they have their associated elemental sphere to choose spells from. And, unlike 2e, I give elemental clerics full access to both Cosmos as well as their elemental Sphere, while paraelemental clerics get full access to both of their associated elemental spheres but are limited to casting Cosmos spells as if they were 2 levels lower (i.e. a 5th level silt cleric could cast 3rd level Earth or Water spells but only 2nd level Cosmos spells).
And finally, although I split spells up based on the appropriate elements, I *didn't* split them up based on what energy type is appropriate - for instance, the Sphere of Water has acid-based spells as well as a couple electricity spells.
Overall, my take on Athasian Clerics is pretty much the same as what Rhul did, although I think mine are a little more powerful (and probably unbalanced ;) )
If you want to add in paraelementals it would require a little more work, but you could probably still do it.
I'm just going to present some rationale for why things are as they are.
First, the spontaneous casting thing. 3e instuted the ability to spontaneously cast healing/damaging spells to make up for a serious playability issue with clerics that cropped up a lot in AD&D2: Cleric as a healbot. Sure, there are all kinds of nice spells that clerics can cast, but what are they always asked to do? Keep the party healthy! Thus, without sponaneous casting, you end up filling three or four of your slots per level with healing spells. Which you may or may not end up using.
So, instead, 3e introduced the ability to spontaneously cast healing spells, without requiring you to take a slot before hand. Suddenly, clerics can now be allowed to memorize a wide variety of spells, and thus have a little more utility at hand, while still being able to heal when needed.
We actually tossed around, for a good long while, a variant that was mentioned above: namely , allowing clerics to spontaneously cast domain spells. However, we eventually decided that clerics would actually be likely to cast more elemental spells if they're allowed to swap in healing spells, instead of forcing them to memorize the spells every night, as they used to.
Also, with spontaneously casting domain spells ... some domain spells are available at a lower level than they would be otherwise. This is a perk to using that one spot for that spell. Allowing a full, every spell you've got, use of your spell slots, can dramatically alter the output of a cleric.
And, as for the cross-domain stuff ... we considered making heavy use of descriptors, and completely barring cross descriptor stuff. This is basically what was done in DS1/DS2. The major problem with that though, is that it's very unbalanced. You don't need to look much farther than DS1 to see that. The earth cleric had one fourth level spell he was allowed to cast. One. Obviously, I don't think anyone is talking about locking away the "cosmos" sphere again, but spheres have seemed a very bad way to go. Better to adapt the current technique of using Domains.
Compare this to a normal D&D campaign, by the way, where clerics are not barred from casting spells that might be completely unrelated to the sphere of influence of their god, with only a very few exceptions. And those exceptions usually had a polar opposite, precisely for the balance reason. A cleric of evil can't cast a [good] spell, for example ... but the [good] spell has and [evil] variant.
Harder to do with elements. We've attempted.
So, those are the rationales. I'm not saying that I think we got everything perfect. For that matter, I'm not sure that it wouldn't be cool to allow the use of some of the core domains. But, we wanted to avoid having to completely overhaul the spell lists for the clerics, and we wanted to avoid problems where a fire cleric, for example, is blatantly more powerful than an air cleric.
Clerical error. Cute.
:D Thankyou
I'm just going to present some rationale for why things are as they are.
First, the spontaneous casting thing. 3e instuted the ability to spontaneously cast healing/damaging spells to make up for a serious playability issue with clerics that cropped up a lot in AD&D2: Cleric as a healbot. Sure, there are all kinds of nice spells that clerics can cast, but what are they always asked to do? Keep the party healthy! Thus, without sponaneous casting, you end up filling three or four of your slots per level with healing spells. Which you may or may not end up using.
So, instead, 3e introduced the ability to spontaneously cast healing spells, without requiring you to take a slot before hand. Suddenly, clerics can now be allowed to memorize a wide variety of spells, and thus have a little more utility at hand, while still being able to heal when needed.
We actually tossed around, for a good long while, a variant that was mentioned above: namely , allowing clerics to spontaneously cast domain spells. However, we eventually decided that clerics would actually be likely to cast more elemental spells if they're allowed to swap in healing spells, instead of forcing them to memorize the spells every night, as they used to.
That's certainly understandable. I won't argue with the spontaneous healing/harming
Also, with spontaneously casting domain spells ... some domain spells are available at a lower level than they would be otherwise. This is a perk to using that one spot for that spell. Allowing a full, every spell you've got, use of your spell slots, can dramatically alter the output of a cleric.
That is true as well, the only problem is that the way the cleric currently setup, that one slot is just about all their access to spells of their element. I don't think it fits with the flavor of elemental clerics at all to give them access to all sorts of generic buffing and healing spells but only a handful of elemental based spells of their element that aren't restricted to one slot.
And, as for the cross-domain stuff ... we considered making heavy use of descriptors, and completely barring cross descriptor stuff. This is basically what was done in DS1/DS2. The major problem with that though, is that it's very unbalanced. You don't need to look much farther than DS1 to see that. The earth cleric had one fourth level spell he was allowed to cast. One. Obviously, I don't think anyone is talking about locking away the "cosmos" sphere again, but spheres have seemed a very bad way to go. Better to adapt the current technique of using Domains.
It's only unbalanced if you don't bother to balance it. New spells can be created, spells can be generalized to apply to multiple elements (as you have already done in some cases), and spells can be moved around from other spell lists. It doesn't make sense for a Water Cleric to cast Fire spells, period.
No, I don't want to lock away the sphere of cosmos, but there are a few spells perhaps that should be removed.
I have to disagree the domain system while I don't have a problem with its use fails to give elemental clerics enough ability to cast spells of their element.
Compare this to a normal D&D campaign, by the way, where clerics are not barred from casting spells that might be completely unrelated to the sphere of influence of their god, with only a very few exceptions. And those exceptions usually had a polar opposite, precisely for the balance reason. A cleric of evil can't cast a [good] spell, for example ... but the [good] spell has and [evil] variant.
Harder to do with elements. We've attempted.
The standard D&D cleric ends up being pretty bland as well.
So, those are the rationales. I'm not saying that I think we got everything perfect. For that matter, I'm not sure that it wouldn't be cool to allow the use of some of the core domains. But, we wanted to avoid having to completely overhaul the spell lists for the clerics, and we wanted to avoid problems where a fire cleric, for example, is blatantly more powerful than an air cleric.
It's good to know what you were thinking, but honestly even if you are going to stick with the Domain system I think the domains themselves could use a bit of an overhaul and I don't see any reason to attach armor and weapon proficiencies to domains. Why not keep those attached to element like they were in 2E. I can see some overlap in Domains, but a lot of them are just ridiculous: how can you justify giving a Water Cleric a fire spell as a domain spell (I'm of course refering to Burning Hands) and then the rest of the domain is all lightning spells, yet it's not a Rain domain and how exactly is Lightning Fire anyway?
I've got a lot more specific problems with various spells and their availability to certain types of clerics, but I'll leave things at that for now.
That is true as well, the only problem is that the way the cleric currently setup, that one slot is just about all their access to spells of their element. I don't think it fits with the flavor of elemental clerics at all to give them access to all sorts of generic buffing and healing spells but only a handful of elemental based spells of their element that aren't restricted to one slot.
True. And it does bug me that, if a spell only appears in one domain, elemental clerics don't get access to it if they don't take that domain.
It's only unbalanced if you don't bother to balance it. New spells can be created, spells can be generalized to apply to multiple elements (as you have already done in some cases), and spells can be moved around from other spell lists. It doesn't make sense for a Water Cleric to cast Fire spells, period.
There are examples in core where clerics cast spells that don't make sense either.
Which is not to say that I don't follow your point.
It's good to know what you were thinking, but honestly even if you are going to stick with the Domain system I think the domains themselves could use a bit of an overhaul and I don't see any reason to attach armor and weapon proficiencies to domains. Why not keep those attached to element like they were in 2E. I can see some overlap in Domains, but a lot of them are just ridiculous: how can you justify giving a Water Cleric a fire spell as a domain spell (I'm of course refering to Burning Hands) and then the rest of the domain is all lightning spells, yet it's not a Rain domain and how exactly is Lightning Fire anyway?
I've got a lot more specific problems with various spells and their availability to certain types of clerics, but I'll leave things at that for now.
Armor and weapon proficencies attached to domains were an attempt to provide more variation within the clerical realms. I'm thinking that the attempt was a bit misguided.
So, supposing we do go through the effort of creating some element specific spell lists ... not all that far off from the psion diciplines, I suppose. I'd still like to keep domains (not necessarily the current crop) in the cleric class because, well, they do a good job of providing more variation to clerics. That leaves three spell lists for a cleric to look into ... cumbersome, I would think.
Which leads to a followup question: Four spell lists, or Eight? Somebody invoked the idea of para-elementals casting from both neighboring domains, but at a higher spell level. Ie, a Silt cleric can cast Earth and Water spells, but casts a level 1 earth spell as if it were a level 2 spell.
I must confess to a historical apathy towards the cleric classess. Much of what exists, I had little to do with, and if it wasn't presenting as a problem, I probably still wouldn't. And when it comes to specific spells, I'll probably still be apathetic.
I would definitely like to see something closer to what Rhul has done, but in domain format for officialdom sake since I don't think we are going to be able to get away from that.
And if we are going to do this the right way we might as well go with the full eight.
I would also like to see the weapons and armor stuff removed from the domains and then added in to the class itself. the path you pick therefore making what armor and weapons is available for you. Kinda like what xlorep has done with his rules for clerics (which I then copied, heh).
Armor and weapon proficencies attached to domains were an attempt to provide more variation within the clerical realms. I'm thinking that the attempt was a bit misguided.
Glad you see the light there. It more a matter of the system being needlessly complicated then it being unbalanced in any way.
So, supposing we do go through the effort of creating some element specific spell lists ... not all that far off from the psion diciplines, I suppose. I'd still like to keep domains (not necessarily the current crop) in the cleric class because, well, they do a good job of providing more variation to clerics. That leaves three spell lists for a cleric to look into ... cumbersome, I would think.
Well, there are several different options I can think of.
1st: Drop domains and just offer granted powers instead. So the cleric gains two granted powers which are setup similar to the domains but don't have any spell lists attached to them. The domain slot either gets converted into a regular slot, or eliminated entirely with the cleric gaining additional granted powers or granted powers that are more powerful then those already included with domains under the current system.
2nd: Keep domains. Domains are made up of spells that are conceptually tied to an element more then literally tied to it. For instance fire domains could be based around concepts such as Fury, Passion, and Purification. Many existing domains could work for these purposes, but new ones could be made as well.
3rd: Keep domains. The elemental spell lists are made up of a small number of core spells such as Gust of Wind for Air and Control Water for Water. The domains include other spells that are less core but still connected to the elements strongly. Like the current domains some of them are stronger then other spells that a cleric could cast at the same level.
I'm sure there are others as well, but that's what comes to mind right now.
Which leads to a followup question: Four spell lists, or Eight? Somebody invoked the idea of para-elementals casting from both neighboring domains, but at a higher spell level. Ie, a Silt cleric can cast Earth and Water spells, but casts a level 1 earth spell as if it were a level 2 spell.
Definately 8, the paraelements don't really break down into their neighboring elements very well.
I must confess to a historical apathy towards the cleric classess. Much of what exists, I had little to do with, and if it wasn't presenting as a problem, I probably still wouldn't. And when it comes to specific spells, I'll probably still be apathetic.
Well, maybe you should give me creative control :D , no that's probably a bad idea
Glad you see the light there. It more a matter of the system being needlessly complicated then it being unbalanced in any way.
But it is unbalanced. While the individual domains are roughly balanced vs. each other, you can combine two domains to get synergies (1+1=3). For example, take a domain that grants you all armors and shields, then take a domain with above average spells, exotic weapons, skills and other goodies that compensate for no armor tied to that specific domain. You rival a PHB cleric and then some!
This area has been a thorn for me all along. So, I too lean towards removing armor, weapons and skills from domains. One option to retain the flavor of an air cleric without heavy armor etc, is to create a variant cleric system which includes some trading of features.
Example:
Air Cleric variant
You do not gain proficiency in Medium and Heavy Armor. Instead you gain Martial Weapon Profiency in all bows. Once per day as a move action, you can imbue a ranged projectile with elemental power for 10 minutes. On a succesful hit, the projectile inflicts an additional 2d6 points of electrical damage. If the attack misses, the energy discharges harmlessly.
Perhaps the second part should be reserved for a domain power, but you get the gist of it.
But it is unbalanced. While the individual domains are roughly balanced vs. each other, you can combine two domains to get synergies (1+1=3). For example, take a domain that grants you all armors and shields, then take a domain with above average spells, exotic weapons, skills and other goodies that compensate for no armor tied to that specific domain. You rival a PHB cleric and then some!
I quess I never looked into it that far, because I just rejected the idea out of hand when I saw it. I just went back to the feel of 2nd ed. and set weapon/armor restrictions based on element.
This is what I've been using:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with weapons and armor dependant on their element and have additional material restrictions listed below.
Earth: All simple weapons, and martial weapons that do bludgeoning damage. Earth clerics gain no proficiency in any weapon that cannot be wielded in melee (Bows, Crossbows, Blowguns, etc.). Light, Medium and Heavy Armor and all shield except including tower shields. Materials: All weapons and armor used by an earth cleric must be off the earth: Wood, Stone, or Metal
Air: All simple and martial weapons that can be thrown, fired, or to which weapon finesse can be applied (Bows, crossbows, spears, daggers, rapier etc.). Light armor, bucklers, and light shields only. Materials: Air clerics favor the bones and skins of flying animals and the upper branches of trees for the construction of their weapons and armor, but can use any material as no material is truely of the air.
Fire: All simple weapons and light, medium, and heavy armor. Fire clerics are not proficient with any kind of shield. Materials: All weapons and armor used by a fire cleric must be made of obsidian, forged metal, or the skins of a creature resistant to fire (such as a fire drake).
Water: All simple weapons plus nets and light and medium armor. All shields except tower shield. Materials: Waters clerics can only use weapons and armor that are of a grown nature: bone, animals skin, wood, ect.
Silt, Magma and Sun: All simple weapons and light, medium, and heavy armor. All shields except for tower shields. Materials: Can use any. Silt favors bone, magma favors obsidian, sun favors reflective materials such as polish bronze and lacquered wood.
Rain: All simple weapons plus bows and light and medium armor. Bucklers and light shields. Materials: Favors all materials favored by air clerics and usuable by water clerics. None restricted.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with light and medium armor, as well as shields (except tower shields). They are proficient with varying weapons depending on their element. Note that they are not restricted to only these weapon proficiencies; they may still take proficiency feats as with any other character class.
Earth: Any simple or martial weapon made of metal, stone or wood. Earth clerics tend to be the most capable clerics in combat.
Air: Any ranged weapon, simple, martial or even exotic. Air clerics are extremely limited in their choice of melee weapons: only melee weapons specifically designed for being thrown, such as a spear, are allowed.
Fire: Any simple or martial weapon that is burning, heated, or made of obsidian.
Water: Water clerics are proficient with any simple or martial weapon made out of an organic material, usually wood or bone.
Rain: Any ranged weapon (simple, martial or even exotic), or any simple or martial melee weapon made out of an organic material, usually wood or bone.
Sun: Any ranged weapon (simple, martial or even exotic), or any simple or martial melee weapon that is burning, heated, or made of obsidian.
Magma: Any weapon that is made of metal or stone, or that is burning or heated.
Silt: Any simple or martial weapon made out of metal, stone, or bone.
I realize these restrictions come from 2e rules and are certainly interesting flavor-wise, but the mechanics need a little more sense behind them. Something like say, all clerics are proficient with all simple and martial weapons but suffer a -2 penalty to attack when using weapons of a forbidden type.
When speaking of material types its not a matter of them not being able to use weapons of other types of materials due to lack of proficiency. Its a matter of it being against their ethos, if they violate their ethos they would temporarily lose acess to their magic. If they did so without good reason they might lose acess permanetly.
Exactly - it'd be like a Catholic Priest marrying, there's nothing physically stopping them from doing so, but it goes against their beliefs and so in a world with divine magic would have a dramatic impact on the character. My players never have any trouble designing character concepts around the classes they want to play, so I've never had to decide what happens if they violate their weapon/armor restrictions, in general I think of it in a similar fashion to that of a preserver defiling...if they do it once or twice "for the greater good" then they have the chance to repent, as it were, but if they repeatedly violate it they'd quickly find themselves up the proverbial creek.
eg
Air: Air,Celerity,Liberation, Renewal,Travel, Trickery, Weather,
Earth: Cavern, Earth, Metal, Renewal,Strength, Time, Plant,Protection
Fire Domains: Fire,Destruction,Purification, Renewal, Suffering,
Water: Community,Cold,Healing,Protection, Renewal Travel, Water,
Sun: Destruction, Glory,Sun,Air, Fire
Rain: Air,Destruction, Renewal,Storm, Water
Magma: Destruction, Earth, Fire,
Silt: Destruction,Earth, Water,
Paraelemntal needs more work but you get the idea. PrCs could also get additional domains- elemental defender gets war domain for example.
eg
Air: Air,Celerity,Liberation, Travel, Trickery, Weather,
Earth: Cavern, Earth, Metal, Strength, Time, Plant,Protection
Fire Domains: Fire,Destruction,Purification, Renewal, Suffering,
Water: Community,Cold,Healing, Ocean,Protection, Travel, Water,
Sun: Destruction, Glory,Sun,Air, Fire
Rain: Air,Healing, Renewal,Storm, Water, Weather
Magma: Destruction, Earth, Fire,
Silt: Destruction,Earth, Water,
Paraelemntal needs more work but you get the idea. PrCs could also get additional domains- elemental defender gets war domain for example.
What are you talking about Jon?
I couldn't even read the end of your post... and besides if you mean what I think you mean, what about the alignment restrictions and multiclass restrictions of other classes. Or more poiniently, what about the materials restrictions placed on druids? The selection of weapons and armor granted and the restrictions on materials will just have to be balanced, I don't see the problem.
Can I have one too? :angelhide
Sure, maybe it will make you type pseudo German at the end of your sentences like it did to him.
:D
You cannot impose the restrictions on arms and armor without compensating. This is D&D, remember, not any d20 rules set. Balance musst sein.
Clerics are regarded as overpowered anyway. Some sort of weapon restrictions that make sense unlike 2nd ed bludgeoning weapons could help.
This is D&D, remember, not any d20 rules set. Balance musst sein.
Apaprently you haven't looked at d20 Modern/Grim Tales. It's even more balanced than D&D could ever dream of becoming and they have all sorts of rules like the weapon and armor restrictions like we are imposing.
The cleric is generally thought to be one of the more powerful classes, but it is these sorts of restrictions that bring them more into balance with the others. That and the whole, your god commands you to do something for them thing... (but, DS clerics don't have to worry about that quite so much..... or do they).
1. Restrict elemental spell access.
2. Weapon restrictions (maybe).
That hits the worst 3 abusable classes. Psions are somewhat suspect as well but aern't quite as bad due to lack of material on them to abuse. Complete Divine+FR+ Exalted Deeds can end up with uber characters. If one didn't use Athas.org domians what domains would the elements give access to? Since theres only around 8 "gods" on Athas I gave most elements more domains than a normal D&D "god". To me this would allow greater freedom for clerics to follow aspects of their element.
I couldn't even read the end of your post... and besides if you mean what I think you mean, what about the alignment restrictions and multiclass restrictions of other classes. Or more poiniently, what about the materials restrictions placed on druids? The selection of weapons and armor granted and the restrictions on materials will just have to be balanced, I don't see the problem.
Allow me to extrapolate. I didn´t mean restricting a class´s weapon and armor proficiencies couldn´t be done. I meant you can´t take something away from a class without replacing it. Then there is a second problem. In 2E, earth clerics were superior to other clerics in terms of fewer material restrictions. We should try to avoid that in 3.5, because *ahem* balance musst sein. Even if you don´t know German, "Ordnung musst sein" is a common reference, which I made a wordplay from. I even put "balance" in English to help. A Google search will give you the answer you seek, regardless of whether you´ve had egg rolls or not. ;)
Allow me to extrapolate. I didn´t mean restricting a class´s weapon and armor proficiencies couldn´t be done. I meant you can´t take something away from a class without replacing it.
Being that they are one the most slightly overpowered classes I don't think that it will be too much of a problem to do what we are trying to do.
Then there is a second problem. In 2E, earth clerics were superior to other clerics in terms of fewer material restrictions. We should try to avoid that in 3.5, because *ahem* balance musst sein.
Good point and you're right.
Even if you don´t know German, "Ordnung musst sein" is a common reference, which I made a wordplay from. I even put "balance" in English to help. A Google search will give you the answer you seek, regardless of whether you´ve had egg rolls or not. ;)
Shows how much I really know about German, heh.
Good point and you're right.
Which is why I would rather package stuff, which can then be balanced, than simply take something away in varying degree for clerics of different elements. For example, since the Earth cleric isn't as limited in armor and weapons, it should get less other benefits. Perhaps the Earth Cleric would even be the default PHB cleric, though I would rather have some level of modification made to each element.