Quick Prince Jagger Question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Quick Prince Jagger Question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
gazza555
Apr 19, 2006 4:13:06 I'm starting to look at the NPC's in G:KoM in order to convert them to 3.5e. As well as needing to sort out the Secret Crafts (probably as Prestige Classes) a question arose concerning Prince Jagger. He supposedly has one of the Orbs of Dragonkind - does any other source indicate which Orb it might be?

I suppose I could just give him the Gold Orb.

Regards
Gary
#2
spellweaver
Apr 19, 2006 6:21:30
I'm starting to look at the NPC's in G:KoM in order to convert them to 3.5e. As well as needing to sort out the Secret Crafts (probably as Prestige Classes) a question arose concerning Prince Jagger. He supposedly has one of the Orbs of Dragonkind - does any other source indicate which Orb it might be?

I suppose I could just give him the Gold Orb.

Regards
Gary

Well, there is a reference to the Book of Artifacts, which I supposed is another 2E book I never bought, so that is not much help. I noticed 2E made Jaggar LE whereas he was mere Lawful in 0D&D. I would argue that he is more LN in aligment but that is a matter of taste, I suppose.

If he is evil at heart, would that conflict with the use of the Gold Orb?

:-) Jesper
#3
gazza555
Apr 19, 2006 6:41:49
If he is evil at heart, would that conflict with the use of the Gold Orb?

From what the SRD says it just appears to have the powers of all the Orbs, without any side effects if you're evil.

Regards
Gary
#4
spellweaver
Apr 19, 2006 10:04:49 Well, since the bearer of the Orb earns the undying enemity of all dragons even after he rids himself of the orb, I'd say that Jaggar does not have one. It would sort of work against all his work in the Secret Craft, would it not?

Perhapt the rumour that he has one has been started by people who wonder where he gets his mysterious powers from but who know nothing of the Secret Craft of Dracology?

:-) Jesper
#5
gazza555
Apr 19, 2006 10:09:35
Perhapt the rumour that he has one has been started by people who wonder where he gets his mysterious powers from but who know nothing of the Secret Craft of Dracology?

Now that's a good idea.

I suppose it depends on if the golden orb gives the bearer the emnity of all dragons or 'just' gold dragons. ;)

Regards
Gary
#6
spellweaver
Apr 19, 2006 10:18:06
Now that's a good idea.

I suppose it depends on if the golden orb gives the bearer the emnity of all dragons or 'just' gold dragons. ;)

Regards
Gary

I read it as ALL dragons of any alignment and colour, but I might be mistaken.

:-) Jesper
#7
gazza555
Apr 19, 2006 10:26:49
I read it as ALL dragons of any alignment and colour, but I might be mistaken.

:-) Jesper

No, re-reading it you are indeed correct. Although it seems a little strange that an evil dragon would be put out if you were carrying around an enslaved good dragon. Then again, an evil dragon doesn't really need a reason does it? :D

Regards
Gary
#8
spellweaver
Apr 19, 2006 10:31:03
No, re-reading it you are indeed correct. Although it seems a little strange that an evil dragon would be put out if you were carrying around an enslaved good dragon. Then again, an evil dragon doesn't really need a reason does it? :D

Regards
Gary

I think it is a matter of racial solidarity. After all, even though I dislike my neighbour, I would take offense if his mind and body were enslaved by a bug. :D

:-) Jesper
#9
gazza555
Apr 19, 2006 10:32:29 It's made me think just how long do you need to bear the orb to earn the emnity?
Does just touching one count?
Maybe it's once you've used one of the powers?

Regards
Gary
#10
Cthulhudrew
Apr 19, 2006 11:00:49 As for Jaggar's alignment issues, I'd agree that his original presentation was more LN, and the LE aspect kind of came from nowhere. There was some discussion about this on the MML years ago (I don't know if it's archived now or if it was pre-WotC; I think it was, and I don't think those archives are around any longer, except on individual fans' hard drives); Bruce himself even weighed in against the LE concept- and I am pretty sure it was him that pointed out that a LE Jaggar couldn't possibly have a Pegasus as a mount. IIRC, Bruce's suggestion was that the LE alignment (which didn't pop up until the 1012 almanac and/or JA and G:KoM) might have been due to Synn's evil influences on the man. Someone suggested that be the case, in any event, and I think Bruce mentioned that he might find it odd that his pegasus shied away from him in modern times.
#11
gazza555
Apr 19, 2006 11:13:54 Thanks for the info Andrew, I've had a quick look on the MML archieve and can't find anything so as you said it must be pre-WotC.

I agree with what you've posted, however, and will convert him LN (with tendencies to LE whilst under the influence of Synn).

Regards
Gary
#12
zombiegleemax
Apr 19, 2006 16:18:07 If I remember correctly, he was presented as a Gold Dracologist in Gaz3... to later became The Diamond Dragon.
But, according to original Secret Crafts, a Gold Dracologist should be Lawful (in OD&D). Whit double allignment, gold dragons are Lawful Good. And a Gold Dracologist MUST be Lawful Good.
But... I don't see any goodness in OD&D Jaggar...
So what kind of dragon dracologist is him? Ruby for LN? Or what-the-hell-I-know dragon for LE?
#13
thorf
Apr 19, 2006 20:23:40 Yes, I think translating OD&D Lawful to AD&D Lawful Evil is always going to be an extremely tricky thing to do. OD&D Lawful does NOT equal AD&D Lawful. Quite often they seemed to use Lawful as Good and Chaotic as Evil, ignoring the Law/Chaos thing altogether - or at least that's how it seemed to me.
#14
culture20
Apr 19, 2006 21:06:56 In the Companion series, Djinni were listed as Chaotic (but were good), and Efreet as Lawful (but were evil). Jagger could easily be this way. In fact, he may have started out Lawful Good, years of war, dragon slaying, and Glantrian politics probably pushed him to Lawful Neutral before Delores came along, and her influence might have put him over the edge to evil. Note that he always seems to be putting the "good" of Glantri or Aalban first. He still thinks he's good, and Adelfeder might allow him to still ride (I thought it was only Unicorns that could detect alignment in their riders), since whenever Jagger rides him, it is usually to battle humanoids or Chaotic dragons.
#15
Cthulhudrew
Apr 19, 2006 23:15:01
(I thought it was only Unicorns that could detect alignment in their riders),

Well, in AD&D, Pegasi would only allow themselves to be tamed by Good characters. In OD&D, it was only Lawful characters. In 3E, they've bent the rules a bit to allow Good and Neutral characters to tame Pegasi.
#16
gazza555
Apr 20, 2006 3:54:02 As it's related to Jagger, I thought I'd share an idea I had about the Dracologist Secret Craft.

Now a few of the dracologist's abilities are based on what sort of dragon he chooses but, unless I've missed something, does go intoany details of the size of the dragon.

So what I've come up with is that the dracologist gains the effects of a dragon whose Age Category is the same as the Dracologist's class level.

For example a 4th level black dracologist would count as a juvenile and do 1d8 points of damage with his Dragon Tooth and 1d6 with his Dragon Paws.

Should he ever become High Master - he will be the equivalent to an Ancient black dragon and his damage would be 2d8 and 2d6 repectively.

What do you think? Does it work? Is it too powerful or not powerful enough?

Regards
Gary
#17
zombiegleemax
Apr 20, 2006 12:58:47
As it's related to Jagger, I thought I'd share an idea I had about the Dracologist Secret Craft.

Now a few of the dracologist's abilities are based on what sort of dragon he chooses but, unless I've missed something, does go intoany details of the size of the dragon.

So what I've come up with is that the dracologist gains the effects of a dragon whose Age Category is the same as the Dracologist's class level.

For example a 4th level black dracologist would count as a juvenile and do 1d8 points of damage with his Dragon Tooth and 1d6 with his Dragon Paws.

Should he ever become High Master - he will be the equivalent to an Ancient black dragon and his damage would be 2d8 and 2d6 repectively.

What do you think? Does it work? Is it too powerful or not powerful enough?

Regards
Gary

If I remember correctly, Dracologist chooses a color of dragon, and bite/claw damage incrises it 3 steps (small, medium, huge) as the mage grows up in level (not in circle). This is in OD&D. In AD&D Glantry Kingdom of Magic a Dracologist improves with level, being an age 1 dragon at the level he attains 1st circle.
Of course, I'm immune to 3ED temptations! ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gazza555 Apr 19, 2006 4:13:06	I'm starting to look at the NPC's in G:KoM in order to convert them to 3.5e. As well as needing to sort out the Secret Crafts (probably as Prestige Classes) a question arose concerning Prince Jagger. He supposedly has one of the Orbs of Dragonkind - does any other source indicate which Orb it might be? I suppose I could just give him the Gold Orb. Regards Gary
#2 spellweaver Apr 19, 2006 6:21:30	I'm starting to look at the NPC's in G:KoM in order to convert them to 3.5e. As well as needing to sort out the Secret Crafts (probably as Prestige Classes) a question arose concerning Prince Jagger. He supposedly has one of the Orbs of Dragonkind - does any other source indicate which Orb it might be? I suppose I could just give him the Gold Orb. Regards Gary Well, there is a reference to the Book of Artifacts, which I supposed is another 2E book I never bought, so that is not much help. I noticed 2E made Jaggar LE whereas he was mere Lawful in 0D&D. I would argue that he is more LN in aligment but that is a matter of taste, I suppose. If he is evil at heart, would that conflict with the use of the Gold Orb? :-) Jesper
#3 gazza555 Apr 19, 2006 6:41:49	If he is evil at heart, would that conflict with the use of the Gold Orb? From what the SRD says it just appears to have the powers of all the Orbs, without any side effects if you're evil. Regards Gary
#4 spellweaver Apr 19, 2006 10:04:49	Well, since the bearer of the Orb earns the undying enemity of all dragons even after he rids himself of the orb, I'd say that Jaggar does not have one. It would sort of work against all his work in the Secret Craft, would it not? Perhapt the rumour that he has one has been started by people who wonder where he gets his mysterious powers from but who know nothing of the Secret Craft of Dracology? :-) Jesper
#5 gazza555 Apr 19, 2006 10:09:35	Perhapt the rumour that he has one has been started by people who wonder where he gets his mysterious powers from but who know nothing of the Secret Craft of Dracology? Now that's a good idea. I suppose it depends on if the golden orb gives the bearer the emnity of all dragons or 'just' gold dragons. ;) Regards Gary
#6 spellweaver Apr 19, 2006 10:18:06	Now that's a good idea. I suppose it depends on if the golden orb gives the bearer the emnity of all dragons or 'just' gold dragons. ;) Regards Gary I read it as ALL dragons of any alignment and colour, but I might be mistaken. :-) Jesper
#7 gazza555 Apr 19, 2006 10:26:49	I read it as ALL dragons of any alignment and colour, but I might be mistaken. :-) Jesper No, re-reading it you are indeed correct. Although it seems a little strange that an evil dragon would be put out if you were carrying around an enslaved good dragon. Then again, an evil dragon doesn't really need a reason does it? :D Regards Gary
#8 spellweaver Apr 19, 2006 10:31:03	No, re-reading it you are indeed correct. Although it seems a little strange that an evil dragon would be put out if you were carrying around an enslaved good dragon. Then again, an evil dragon doesn't really need a reason does it? :D Regards Gary I think it is a matter of racial solidarity. After all, even though I dislike my neighbour, I would take offense if his mind and body were enslaved by a bug. :D :-) Jesper
#9 gazza555 Apr 19, 2006 10:32:29	It's made me think just how long do you need to bear the orb to earn the emnity? Does just touching one count? Maybe it's once you've used one of the powers? Regards Gary
#10 Cthulhudrew Apr 19, 2006 11:00:49	As for Jaggar's alignment issues, I'd agree that his original presentation was more LN, and the LE aspect kind of came from nowhere. There was some discussion about this on the MML years ago (I don't know if it's archived now or if it was pre-WotC; I think it was, and I don't think those archives are around any longer, except on individual fans' hard drives); Bruce himself even weighed in against the LE concept- and I am pretty sure it was him that pointed out that a LE Jaggar couldn't possibly have a Pegasus as a mount. IIRC, Bruce's suggestion was that the LE alignment (which didn't pop up until the 1012 almanac and/or JA and G:KoM) might have been due to Synn's evil influences on the man. Someone suggested that be the case, in any event, and I think Bruce mentioned that he might find it odd that his pegasus shied away from him in modern times.
#11 gazza555 Apr 19, 2006 11:13:54	Thanks for the info Andrew, I've had a quick look on the MML archieve and can't find anything so as you said it must be pre-WotC. I agree with what you've posted, however, and will convert him LN (with tendencies to LE whilst under the influence of Synn). Regards Gary
#12 zombiegleemax Apr 19, 2006 16:18:07	If I remember correctly, he was presented as a Gold Dracologist in Gaz3... to later became The Diamond Dragon. But, according to original Secret Crafts, a Gold Dracologist should be Lawful (in OD&D). Whit double allignment, gold dragons are Lawful Good. And a Gold Dracologist MUST be Lawful Good. But... I don't see any goodness in OD&D Jaggar... So what kind of dragon dracologist is him? Ruby for LN? Or what-the-hell-I-know dragon for LE?
#13 thorf Apr 19, 2006 20:23:40	Yes, I think translating OD&D Lawful to AD&D Lawful Evil is always going to be an extremely tricky thing to do. OD&D Lawful does NOT equal AD&D Lawful. Quite often they seemed to use Lawful as Good and Chaotic as Evil, ignoring the Law/Chaos thing altogether - or at least that's how it seemed to me.
#14 culture20 Apr 19, 2006 21:06:56	In the Companion series, Djinni were listed as Chaotic (but were good), and Efreet as Lawful (but were evil). Jagger could easily be this way. In fact, he may have started out Lawful Good, years of war, dragon slaying, and Glantrian politics probably pushed him to Lawful Neutral before Delores came along, and her influence might have put him over the edge to evil. Note that he always seems to be putting the "good" of Glantri or Aalban first. He still thinks he's good, and Adelfeder might allow him to still ride (I thought it was only Unicorns that could detect alignment in their riders), since whenever Jagger rides him, it is usually to battle humanoids or Chaotic dragons.
#15 Cthulhudrew Apr 19, 2006 23:15:01	(I thought it was only Unicorns that could detect alignment in their riders), Well, in AD&D, Pegasi would only allow themselves to be tamed by Good characters. In OD&D, it was only Lawful characters. In 3E, they've bent the rules a bit to allow Good and Neutral characters to tame Pegasi.
#16 gazza555 Apr 20, 2006 3:54:02	As it's related to Jagger, I thought I'd share an idea I had about the Dracologist Secret Craft. Now a few of the dracologist's abilities are based on what sort of dragon he chooses but, unless I've missed something, does go intoany details of the size of the dragon. So what I've come up with is that the dracologist gains the effects of a dragon whose Age Category is the same as the Dracologist's class level. For example a 4th level black dracologist would count as a juvenile and do 1d8 points of damage with his Dragon Tooth and 1d6 with his Dragon Paws. Should he ever become High Master - he will be the equivalent to an Ancient black dragon and his damage would be 2d8 and 2d6 repectively. What do you think? Does it work? Is it too powerful or not powerful enough? Regards Gary
#17 zombiegleemax Apr 20, 2006 12:58:47	As it's related to Jagger, I thought I'd share an idea I had about the Dracologist Secret Craft. Now a few of the dracologist's abilities are based on what sort of dragon he chooses but, unless I've missed something, does go intoany details of the size of the dragon. So what I've come up with is that the dracologist gains the effects of a dragon whose Age Category is the same as the Dracologist's class level. For example a 4th level black dracologist would count as a juvenile and do 1d8 points of damage with his Dragon Tooth and 1d6 with his Dragon Paws. Should he ever become High Master - he will be the equivalent to an Ancient black dragon and his damage would be 2d8 and 2d6 repectively. What do you think? Does it work? Is it too powerful or not powerful enough? Regards Gary If I remember correctly, Dracologist chooses a color of dragon, and bite/claw damage incrises it 3 steps (small, medium, huge) as the mage grows up in level (not in circle). This is in OD&D. In AD&D Glantry Kingdom of Magic a Dracologist improves with level, being an age 1 dragon at the level he attains 1st circle. Of course, I'm immune to 3ED temptations! ;)