Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 flip Apr 19, 2006 15:12:13	This is a feedback thread I'm going to be running. The results of these threads are not garunteed to go into R7, but would definately make it into R8. Ground rule: Please don't start the threads yourself. I've got elevated privledges that let me actually manage the threads that I start, but not arbitrary threads. Also, I'd just like to keep the pacing under control. Ground rule: This is for feedback and observations from acutal playing, be that PC or NPC/enemy combatant. Either way, this is not the place for armchair theorizing. I want to see what a year's worth of experience has laid out. Ground rule: Keep the thread on topic. If you must stray, start a new thread. Muls. Too powerful, too underpowered? What do you think of the ability adjustments, in play? Does the Level Adjustment come out as weakening the character, or does he tend to remain on par with other characters? Any issues with the racial aiblities?
#2 flip Apr 19, 2006 15:12:51	(saved)
#3 kalthandrix Apr 19, 2006 15:23:37	I have found with the LA on muls that it may be unneeded- I think that they might benefit from it being removed. On the other hand- looking at the race, if removing the LA would require cutting some of their racial benefits then I would be more then happy to keep it. The DR might be a bit better if it was 2/ for reducing non-leathal damage though- And additional feats that could increase it too would be good IMO.
#4 Sysane Apr 19, 2006 15:29:15	From DMing a party that has two muls (one being a ranger/fighter, the other a fighter/gladiator), I've found that they are pretty balanced as writen. At first I didn't think that they would warrent being a LA +1 race, but it really didn't unbalance to much. from rest of the party. Granted, these mul were converted over from 2e and were 15th characters. So, the balance may not be a obvious when dealing with characters at this level of power.
#5 flip Apr 19, 2006 15:30:21	Removing the LA would definately require adjusting their ability modifiers. Probably down to a half-orcish +2 Strength, -2 Charisma, -2 somethingelse (probably int). I don't think that Tireless, Extended Activity and Nonleathal DR alone would require an LA. I rather like the Nonlethal DR, myself, but that ability might push the edge. Otherwise the reason for the LA is pretty much entirely the stat adjustments. I'm not sure that bumping it up to 2/- is necessary, but it's a possiblity. Starts making powers like Biofeedback look very appealing.
#6 kalthandrix Apr 19, 2006 15:39:49	For ability score adjustments- I could see +4 Str, +2 Con, -4 Cha. This would be a good reflection of them being a slave race with lower social skills bred for fighting.
#7 dirk00001 Apr 19, 2006 16:13:14	My group has a single mul and the rest are humans; I got rid of the mul's +1 LA and instead gave a -2 Intelligence to (somewhat) compensate. Even so, although he's a bruiser, being with a bunch of non-muls makes his endurance abilities pretty much pointless for anything other than saves against the heat of the sun and even then it doesn't really matter that much, since the group tends to hide in the shade during the hottest hours. As for the non-lethal DR, it literally has come up once, and that was when the other gladiator in the group got ****** at the mul and punched him in the face...but then she realized that she could deal lethal damage with her fists so the excitement of that racial ability was short-lived. So - in my game, the +1 LA, if I even imposed it, would be bad. I realize that "by the book" the Str and Con bonuses are huge, but seeing it in-play I don't think it has that great of an impact, and especially when compared to a half-giant. I'd suggest either increasing the mul's bonuses or else giving them -2 Int and maybe even -2 Wis (taking Rikus' example of a "thick-headed mul") so you can drop the LA altogether. Also could state that they count as both a Dwarf and Human for the purposes of spells/etc.
#8 xanthus Apr 19, 2006 16:54:51	Having played a mul gladiator/fighter in my friend's game using the DS3.5 rules, I think that LA +1 isn't necessary. We tried playing with the stat adjustments and gave them +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Charisma and that played out more according of a LA +1 race. The DR was neat but basically meant it took longer for the awful templar who owned me to whip me when I tried to escape. The extra hp from the Con bonus definitely changed things up. -X
#9 bengeldorn Apr 19, 2006 18:56:24	This could be just my opinion, but I think that it shouldn't be called non-leathel DR but Resistance to non-leathel damage. I can't actually explain why, but IMHO it works more like a resistance than a damage reduction.
#10 ruhl-than_sage Apr 19, 2006 19:00:09	I had a player with a Mul character and have run a few NPC Mul's and I have to say that the race is well balanced. One point that I have houseruled is to increase the Non-lethal DR to 2/- because 1/- is just piddly. Also I agree that it would be nice to see a feat in the main rules to increase it even further. I also houseruled that like elves in standard D&D, Muls only need 4 hours of sleep a night, which I think fits well with their extended activity and endurance abilities. Incidently the Player with the Mul character rolled poorly, I offered her a reroll and she rolled poorly again, so she ended up with stats approximately the same as the other characters despite a 4 point advantage from racial adjustment (I just wish my players would agree to point-buy )
#11 zombiegleemax Apr 19, 2006 20:42:22	maybe an idea which i got from sekar would be to convert the it to damage reduction of 2/ slashing and peircing...Perhaps it is their hard core body that lets them withstand the smacks because subdual attacks are usually blunt...kinda hard to subdue somebody by slicing them....
#12 elonarc Apr 20, 2006 2:45:31	For ability score adjustments- I could see +4 Str, +2 Con, -4 Cha. This would be a good reflection of them being a slave race with lower social skills bred for fighting. Sorry, I disagree. Dropping Charisma further would be bad design IMHO.
#13 kalthandrix Apr 20, 2006 7:45:37	Well another solution would be to have it like Str +4, Con +2, Wis -2, Cha -2. I do, on the other hand, like the idea of muls having a higher Con score, so flipping the attribute mods to go +2 Str and +4 Con would be cool and fit with a lot of their racial abilities.
#14 flip Apr 20, 2006 8:17:13	Well another solution would be to have it like Str +4, Con +2, Wis -2, Cha -2. I do, on the other hand, like the idea of muls having a higher Con score, so flipping the attribute mods to go +2 Str and +4 Con would be cool and fit with a lot of their racial abilities. Agreed. I could probably go with that. The suggestion of raising the non-lethal resistance to 2/- is probably okay. I'm not sure, I'll think about DR 1/slashing or pericing in it's place ... I think that would be a bit much.
#15 bengeldorn Apr 20, 2006 8:25:59	The suggestion of raising the non-lethal resistance to 2/- is probably okay. I'm not sure, I'll think about DR 1/slashing or pericing in it's place ... I think that would be a bit much. I agree that non-lethal resistance 2 would be ok, but if it's going to be called resistance than you don't need the "/—". ;)
#16 master_ivan Apr 20, 2006 8:33:01	Agreed. I could probably go with that. The suggestion of raising the non-lethal resistance to 2/- is probably okay. I'm not sure, I'll think about DR 1/slashing or pericing in it's place ... I think that would be a bit much. Non-lethal DR 2/- is probably way more realistic than the slashing DR and this Str +4, Con +2, Wis -2, Cha -2 sounds the best to me. Although my Mul is at 38th level, my DM has always ruled that he never bruised from a sucker punch for example, they are tough but DR against slashing and piercing, IMHO is too much. Rather DR against bludgeoning.
#17 kalthandrix Apr 20, 2006 9:13:12	Agreed. I could probably go with that. The suggestion of raising the non-lethal resistance to 2/- is probably okay. I'm not sure, I'll think about DR 1/slashing or pericing in it's place ... I think that would be a bit much. Cool. A DR 1/slashing or pericing is IMO the wrong direction- they are durable and can hold up to beatings and stuff and keeping it focused against non-lethal damage will help in getting rid of the LA. If the DR were to go to something else then non-lethal then we would have to keep the LA.
#18 bengeldorn Apr 20, 2006 9:25:16	I just realized that dsr3_r6 doesn't call it Nonlethal Damage Reduction but Nonlethal Damage Resistance. The "1/—" allways implied to me that it was Reduction. IMHO this is a pretty weird i constellation, you should change it to one of the following suggestions: Nonlethal Damage Resistance 2 Damage Reduction 2/lethal damage Nonlethal Damage Reduction 2/— I'd prefer 1., but the others would work as well.
#19 jackmojo Apr 20, 2006 10:14:27	I like the mul's pretty much as they are (level adjustment and superior stats, et al) but then I like the races to be unbalanced because equality can far too easily equal boring, plus LA'ed races don't seem to favor a given class as much as heavily modified LA +0 races tend to, which I don't like. As to the damage reduction I would like to see a straight DR 1/- perhaps that stacks with similar Class DR and allows access to some DR enhancing feats. If a non-lethal resistance would be prefferred I would want something more impressive, perhaps halve all non-lethal damage outright or something along those lines (aka don't ever pick a fist fight with a mul) Jack
#20 Grummore Apr 21, 2006 7:56:30	Here is my opinion and thoughts that comes from our Mul experimentation. The LA +1 adjustment is excellent. The +4 STR +2 CON are well placed. The mul fighter we have in our group is a damage dealing machine and with his level adjustment, it seem equal to the other character. This is a particular race, they dont born has easy as the other races, they should be more strong with +1 LA. I dont want to see a weaker version of the Mul. In our game, it is well balanced.
#21 netherek Apr 23, 2006 14:34:17	The DR should be written as DR 1/Lethal that way it fits the existing DR format. I think a Mul should have either reduced int or wis, and probably a -4 cha. This point isn't quite on topic but I think that the other races could use a stat boost much Dragon Mag had done.
#22 master_ivan Apr 23, 2006 18:59:05	This has been mentioned a few times over in this thread. But I agree with those, who want to keep the -2 Cha and go for -2 Wis. I say wisdom because muls are not stupid (unintelligent), but they are not very wise (wisdom). One steps on a muls toes, he gets beat up. The mul knows that he can beat the guy up and knows what he has to do (int), but he doesn't comprehend that it means trouble to beat people up (wis). That's how I see the mul. Take down the LA and add a -2 Wisdom.
#23 Prism Apr 27, 2006 10:48:39	I have used the LA buy off rule in unearthed arcana to let the mul player in our group reduce his LA. In hindsight it would have worked just as well without the LA. To balance I'd be perfectly happy with the extra -2 WIS
#24 kalthandrix Apr 27, 2006 10:57:18	I am currently thinking about offering the mul gladiator/psychic warrior in my game the chance to get rid of his LA and gaining another clas level in its place, but the -2 Wis would hurt him a bit- but I am not forcing the change if I do it- he can keep his PC the way it is now if he does not want the -2 - I will let you knwo how that works out.