Ground rule: Please don't start the threads yourself. I've got elevated privledges that let me actually manage the threads that I start, but not arbitrary threads. Also, I'd just like to keep the pacing under control.
Ground rule: This is for feedback and observations from acutal playing, be that PC or NPC/enemy combatant. Either way, this is not the place for armchair theorizing. I want to see what a year's worth of experience has laid out.
Ground rule: Keep the thread on topic. If you must stray, start a new thread.
Templars. Another class that's basically written from the ground up. If you've played a templar, or played in a game with Templars, I want to hear what you think of the class. If you've attempted to run a game with a templar character, I'm very interested in your thoughts.
I want to hear about the Secular Authority mechanic. I want to know if the assigned spells idea works. I want to know if the spell list works for you, or if their spells come out as too powerful. Is anything unclear?
Context is important. Are you playing in a city which still has an SK? Are you playing a political campaign, or a dungeon crawl, or "repress the populace" stint? If you're commenting on secular authority, are you in a city with or without a sorcerer king? Are you dealing with a templar who has only one level, to get the ability, or a fully leveled templar? How do they stand up against other spellcasters? How do they stand up against rouges and other "off fighters" ?
- expand the spell lists to include some more combat oriented spells
This class needs a boost in order make it be able to shine and stand on its own without relying on PrCs to give it an edge. I'd look to either the Favored Soul or the Mystic ( from Dragonlance) for some inspiration.
Presenting explicit Templar level requirements for the abilities would have the effect of rendering templars from city states without sorcerer kings little more than high level Commoners, if they wish to have the Secular Authority ability.
I'd be almost tempted to remove Templars as a core class, rework Secular Authority as some kind of feat, and use Prestige Classes to represent each city's Templarate.
Of course, that could be it right there: Is there a way to rework secular authority as a feat, so that membership in the templar *class* is not required (to allow the occasional defiler-templar, or telepath-templar), and just give the feat as a first level bonus to Templars? This keeps templar as a core class, as in those guys recieving spells direct from the SK, while still allowing cities without a sorcerer king to have their templars as an organization...
For example- the templar with a war domain would maybe have added to their spells known (maybe replacing the assigned spell they get) the following:
1- Magic Weapon
2- Pyrotechnics
3- Dispel Magic
4- Wall of Fire
5- Freedom of Movement
6- Blade Barrier
7- Mages Sword
8- Mantle of the Sorcer King (like cloak of Chaos with some tweaks)
9- Meteor Swarm
And they would gain 1/2 their templar level as a bonus to knowledge (warcraft) checks and have greater authority to commandier troops.
If the templar would switch their domain (make the choice available like every 5 levels or something) they would loose the spells listed above and the ability, but gain the ability to cast some different spells and have a new ability.
There are implicit character level requirements, in that the abilities require a certain number of ranks in the skill.
Presenting explicit Templar level requirements for the abilities would have the effect of rendering templars from city states without sorcerer kings little more than high level Commoners, if they wish to have the Secular Authority ability.
I'd be almost tempted to remove Templars as a core class, rework Secular Authority as some kind of feat, and use Prestige Classes to represent each city's Templarate.
Of course, that could be it right there: Is there a way to rework secular authority as a feat, so that membership in the templar *class* is not required (to allow the occasional defiler-templar, or telepath-templar), and just give the feat as a first level bonus to Templars? This keeps templar as a core class, as in those guys recieving spells direct from the SK, while still allowing cities without a sorcerer king to have their templars as an organization...
I once tried an attempt doing that, but unfortunatelly I got not much feedback. I took the mechanik of the monk's class feature and the feat stunning fist. IRRC A monk could use his stunning fist based on his monk level, while other characters only get additional uses by for every 2 character levels. This way the templer was able to use it more often than someone with just the feat (and without templar levels). I'm going to look for the thread, where I presented it, maybe this will give some new ideas.
EDIT: I found the thread.
-more real (aka "from the Sor/Wiz list") combat spells, like Zardnaar suggested
-A mechanic which lets them use their status as a Templar apart from Secular Authority. In my games it never was that exciting to imprison or judge somebody (and being only able to use this ability in one's own city-state).
-Please, do not make the Templar a Prestige Class!!!
Flip, the reason bardic music was reworked is to avoid multi-classing bards with high ranks in Perform getting the best bardic music abilities. The same could apply to templars and other classes with Secular Authority. A feat could be constructed to increase your level for secular authority purposes, for example by 4 levels. That would lean closer to the original intent of Secular Authority not tied to ranks, to better explain high ranking NPCs such as Escrissar's use of secular authority (he is obviously not a core class templar, but perhaps with a prestige class that grants secular authority - add the feat once or twice and he is on par with a straight templar or templar + prestige class).
Flip, the reason bardic music was reworked is to avoid multi-classing bards with high ranks in Perform getting the best bardic music abilities. The same could apply to templars and other classes with Secular Authority.
I know why the bard class changed to the way it is. That was never a question. The issue is that the templar has the "unique" situation of being "present" in at least four city states where it's just not viable as a class, because a major class feature is completely unavailable.
A feat could be constructed to increase your level for secular authority purposes, for example by 4 levels. That would lean closer to the original intent of Secular Authority not tied to ranks, to better explain high ranking NPCs such as Escrissar's use of secular authority (he is obviously not a core class templar, but perhaps with a prestige class that grants secular authority - add the feat once or twice and he is on par with a straight templar or templar + prestige class).
Well, potentially. I'm still thinking about divorcing the ability from the core class. You gain it through a feat, which Templar-the-class gets for free at first level, with a +4 bonus to checks coming ...well, somewhere later, to tone down the effects of single level dipping ... or maybe divorce it from diplomacy levels, and tie it to character level with, as you suggest, a feat to boost your effective level available.
There are a few ways which we could deal with it. We could scrap the whole thing altogether, if we can find something else to replace it with, and I wouldn't object.
Making templars a prestige class seriously handicaps their spellprogression. I am very much against that. I lean more towards reworking secular authority and maybe expanding the spell list to include some wiz/sor spells with the elemental descriptor (because their spells are linked to the elemental planes through the elemental vortices).
Flip, the reason bardic music was reworked is to avoid multi-classing bards with high ranks in Perform getting the best bardic music abilities. The same could apply to templars and other classes with Secular Authority. A feat could be constructed to increase your level for secular authority purposes, for example by 4 levels. That would lean closer to the original intent of Secular Authority not tied to ranks, to better explain high ranking NPCs such as Escrissar's use of secular authority (he is obviously not a core class templar, but perhaps with a prestige class that grants secular authority - add the feat once or twice and he is on par with a straight templar or templar + prestige class).
I gave it a try in this thread so it could be discussed there and leave this thread open for it is supposed.
Hrm. While I like the idea of giving them domains -- just helps define differences between the SKs -- I'm not really keen on making them clerics.
Like the difference between defilers and preservers? :P
Hrm. While I like the idea of giving them domains -- just helps define differences between the SKs -- I'm not really keen on making them clerics.
Me neither. I want to keep them as a base class. But the whole Templar-status-issue has to get a better mechanical solution. On the one hand, we want persons who do not have the actual Templar class to be able to use Secular Authority. On the other hand, I experienced that players would like to have other, more 'useful' abilities for the Templar class. Perhaps it is worth a try to sever the connection between Secular Authority and the Templar class. Secular Authority for non-Templars (perhaps via a feat), though the Templar could get a class feature that makes him especially good at it (e.g., the suggested feat for free). This would also open the possibility for cool new Templar class abilities.
Me neither. I want to keep them as a base class. But the whole Templar-status-issue has to get a better mechanical solution. On the one hand, we want persons who do not have the actual Templar class to be able to use Secular Authority. On the other hand, I experienced that players would like to have other, more 'useful' abilities for the Templar class. Perhaps it is worth a try to sever the connection between Secular Authority and the Templar class. Secular Authority for non-Templars (perhaps via a feat), though the Templar could get a class feature that makes him especially good at it (e.g., the suggested feat for free). This would also open the possibility for cool new Templar class abilities.
If the templar is going to get some usefull combat orientated spells, he won't need more abilities, as he could be like the standard sorcerer but with a better Hit Die, BAB, better saves and more skill points.
As for the secular authority ability I again suggest to take a look at the mechanics of the stunning fist feat (I know keep repeating, sorry) and how a monk benefits from it.
Hrm. While I like the idea of giving them domains -- just helps define differences between the SKs -- I'm not really keen on making them clerics.
I have some notes on like 5 or 6 general templar 'position' domains and ideas for SK specific ones too.
I will scratch them out into a word doc and send it to you flip, or if you would rather, I could post it on a new thread on the board- just let me know and PM me your e-mail address if you want it that way.
Like the difference between defilers and preservers? :P
It's a setting. There are thematic reasons for keeping that line blurry, thank you. :P
I have some notes on like 5 or 6 general templar 'position' domains and ideas for SK specific ones too.
I will scratch them out into a word doc and send it to you flip, or if you would rather, I could post it on a new thread on the board- just let me know and PM me your e-mail address if you want it that way.
Personally, I'd like to see a thread on it. I'd like to share thoughts on SK's domains and such.
That would lean closer to the original intent of Secular Authority not tied to ranks, to better explain high ranking NPCs such as Escrissar's use of secular authority (he is obviously not a core class templar, but perhaps with a prestige class that grants secular authority - add the feat once or twice and he is on par with a straight templar or templar + prestige class).
Such feats as Practiced Spellcaster, when taken more than once, apply to another spellcasting class...so you can't take it more than once for the templar class, at least if you base it on the official feats from WotC.
I want to know if the assigned spells idea works. I want to know if the spell list works for you, or if their spells come out as too powerful.
A good idea, but if its changed in that templars receive access to domains this would no longer be needed since it would be replaced with domain spells.
The Profession domains will also have the ability to be swiched out at certian levels.
The SK domains will follow (kind of) some of the divine spell domains in the 'flavor'- ie Hamanu would have maybe Strength and Law, while Nib would have Knowledge and Darkness. <-- those are just example as I have ho actually come up with cool names for them.
I could see giving templars one profession domain at 1st level, which can be switched out for another profession domain every 3 or 5 levels- the SK domains would be given at like 10th or something, but cannot be switched out.
There may even be room for the templar to be able to select a third domain at a predetermined level.
Sorcerer Monarch Domain
Granted power: You receive Secular Authority as a bonus feat. Additionally, you receive a competence bonus equal to your templar level for purposes of contesting another characters use of Secular Authority.
Domain Spells:
1 Hand of the Sorcerer King: Protects caster from spells.
2 Hold Person: Holds one person helpless; 1 round/level.
3 Image of the Sorcerer King: Touched creatures must save or become affected by cause fear.
4 Wrath of the Sorcerer King: Know if a creature has broken the law, and punish them.
5 Mark of Justice: Designates action that will trigger curse on subject.
6 Wisdom of the Sorcerer King: Apply metamagic to one spell of up to 4th level.
7 Confessor's Flame: Uses threat of flame to extract confession.
8 Discern Location: Exact location of creature or object.
9 Elemental Storm: Deals 1d6 energy damage/level.
Here are my suggestions for SKs domains. This by no means set in stone.
Daskinor
Madness, Chaos
Dregoth
Death, Evil
Hamanu
War, Strength,
Oronis
Good, Protection
Lalali-Puy
Plant, Weather
Nibenay
Knowledge, Magic
As I said twice already in this thread, I do very much not like the idea to make the templars clerics. It smells like Dim Sun to me and strays too far away from the original Dark Sun. Next thing after that might be the Gladiator becoming a Prestige Class, because we don't need special base classes anymore.
If, and please do not, this change would be made there should be full-flegded domains for the so-called dead Sorcerer Kings. Not everyone is happy with the events of the Prism Pentad.
Two things:
As I said twice already in this thread, I do very much not like the idea to make the templars clerics. It smells like Dim Sun to me and strays too far away from the original Dark Sun. Next thing after that might be the Gladiator becoming a Prestige Class, because we don't need special base classes anymore.
If, and please do not, this change would be made there should be full-flegded domains for the so-called dead Sorcerer Kings. Not everyone is happy with the events of the Prism Pentad.
Those domain suggestions are for the templar CLASS not for the cleric. I'm suggesting that templars would be better served if they had domains and domain powers LIKE a cleric. I'm not suggesting that they BE clerics.
In giving them domains templars from different city-states will be more diversified and stand out from one another. Additionally, It would the templar class a little flavor and power than it currently has.
In giving them domains templars from different city-states will be more diversified and stand out from one another. Additionally, It would the templar class a little flavor and power than it currently has.
One could go all the way and just give each Sorcerer Monarch's templars unique spell lists. Spell lists unique to each city-state. This certainly would mimic the in-setting flavor of each Sorcerer Monarch supposedly personally granting each spell.
Of course, this might be considered a whole lot of work. For the ambitious out there it might be something to try in their own homebrewed Athas...
Of what I recall, Jon mentionned he was intrigued by the idea of having such feats for the various positions/offices in the templarate, like Urik's dead heart templars for example.
Of what I recall, Jon mentionned he was intrigued by the idea of having such feats for the various positions/offices in the templarate, like Urik's dead heart templars for example.
Which what I am attempting to do- like I had posted above, so far I have the beginnings to 6 or so position domains- King's Works, Security, ect., and also two domains for each of the SKs.
I just need some time to get'er done :D
One could go all the way and just give each Sorcerer Monarch's templars unique spell lists. Spell lists unique to each city-state. This certainly would mimic the in-setting flavor of each Sorcerer Monarch supposedly personally granting each spell.
Of course, this might be considered a whole lot of work. For the ambitious out there it might be something to try in their own homebrewed Athas...
Instead of whole spell lists a handful of new spells could be made which could be tied to each of the SKs. Similar to being a signature spell that is only granted to templars of a specific SK (i.e Oba's Embrace, Lion's Cunning, Curse of the Shadow King, etc...). This would also accomplish what you proposed above.
I just need some time to get'er done :D
What did I tell you about this? :fight!:
What Eric mentionned I've heard before, when it was proposed to Jon to adapt the Initiate feats found in FR books. For those who don't know, such a feat says you have been initiated into the mysteries of a specific god's church, giving you minor benefits (such as two skills becoming class skills for you) as well as access to four spells not on the cleric spell list, each spell being gained at a different level (ex. at 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th).
Of what I recall, Jon mentionned he was intrigued by the idea of having such feats for the various positions/offices in the templarate, like Urik's dead heart templars for example.
I like this better than swapping domains.
Templars are weaker than clerics but they are supposed to be. To become a cleric one has to invest his entire life in the calling, while to become a templar one has to bribe someone and is granted (basically) free food and shelter. That is why people become templars - not to starve nor to be eventually turned into slavery. Power comes much later, if ever.
Templars are fine they way they are. I too would encourage severing the secular authority, and a spell list upgrade (lightning strike, anyone?) but NO domains! Don't make them cleric equivalents, since it would have drastic and bad consequences on the roleplay.
Templars are fine they way they are. I too would encourage severing the secular authority, and a spell list upgrade (lightning strike, anyone?) but NO domains! Don't make them cleric equivalents, since it would have drastic and bad consequences on the roleplay.
What roleplaying consequences would those be?
Templars are weaker than clerics but they are supposed to be.
I suppose templars to be stronger than clerics. The way of templar must be a temptation, and a templar must be able to keep in line any "common" (cleric or psion) caster of the same level. So my power rating of full-casting classes is:
- Defiler.
- Preserver, Templar, Druid.
- Cleric, Psion.
I suppose templars to be stronger than clerics. The way of templar must be a temptation, and a templar must be able to keep in line any "common" (cleric or psion) caster of the same level.
Well I consider templars to be tempted by a title of power and money in the city, hence more materialistic as opposed to a cleric who follows a spiritual path.
IMO, I'd say the templar deserves a few more combat oriented spells but other than that, he should cheat, lie, blackmail, backstab and assassinate to get more power (in other words; I like 'em pretty much the way they are... please don't make him just another cleric).
(in other words; I like 'em pretty much the way they are... please don't make him just another cleric).
Giving templars domains isn't making them just another cleric. :P
Look at it right now- a templar of Nibenay is the same as one from Gulg and a templar from Kurn has the same powers as a templar in New Giustenal. Now does that seem right to you?
With domains, they will be like clerics in that they are more sharply defined as to where they come from. But the task I am currently undertaking is to make the templar domains help the different types of tempars of each city-state stick out more from the crowd. So a templar from the War Ministry has different abilities and spells then one from the King's Works or Secret Security.
IMO doing this will make the templars more attractive to be played and more playable instead of the cookie cutter design they currently reside under --> Not dissing you fellows at Athas.org, but even the pyramids in Egypt could use some work (as in they are good but could be better now that we have a better understanding).
Domains (we have got to come up with another name for the templar ones) actually will serve to differentiate the templars.
What about remit?
What about remit?
Unless you are using a different definition then the one I found in Webster's Dictionary, I do not think that would really work.
I was thinking along the lines, for the swappible job ones, Ministry of [X].
Domains (we have got to come up with another name for the templar ones) actually will serve to differentiate the templars.
Domains fit. Where talking about divine casters. No need to recreate the wheel. ;)
What roleplaying consequences would those be?
Templars are not good. They join templarate to gain (as i previously said) food, lodging and the most ambitious ones backstab and bribe to true power and SK favouritism. This is a hard path since all the upper templars did the same thing. Giving Templart domains, tons of new spells etc. would make even the lowest of templars powerful without the real need to advance in ranks through afore mentoined methods. And it's the rise in power through the hierarchy that makes the real interesting roleplay.
Templars are not good. They join templarate to gain (as i previously said) food, lodging and the most ambitious ones backstab and bribe to true power and SK favouritism. This is a hard path since all the upper templars did the same thing. Giving Templart domains, tons of new spells etc. would make even the lowest of templars powerful without the real need to advance in ranks through afore mentoined methods. And it's the rise in power through the hierarchy that makes the real interesting roleplay.
Now you're confusing mechanics with thematic setting flavor.
There is a difference and just because templars have domains with spells and such wouldn't change that a bit since that is part of the flavor of the class within the setting and not a mechanic that is part of the class.
That's like some of the arguments I have heard about preservers and defilers and how there will be few defilers because they aren't all that more powerful than preservers mechanically. Defilers could be exactly the same mechanically (other than that they defile) and they would still want to be so because of setting's flavor, not because of the mechanics. The tempatation will always be there regardless.
Continue to call them "Assigned spells" just come up with multiple lists. Nibenay assigns these spells, while the Oba assigns these...
That could be done as well, but now your just taking about creating NEW domains. Call them what the are. Why create say an "Oba Domain" when most, if not all, of the spells on it are going to be from the Plant or Weather Domains?
The work's already been done it just needs to be applied
I personally like giving the templars domains, but wouldnt it be a good idea to come up with SK specific domains. Each domain would have different spells AND abilities that only templars from a specific city could obtain. This would further deviate templars from one city from those from another. I personally dont like the idea of a templar of Urik being the same as one from Gulg. The SK are different physically and mentally and I think the differing domains would reflect the different abilities bestowed upon their followers.
I think if a new domain were to be created it would be the Monarch Domain (which I posted at the begining of the thread) that is composed of templar only spells. New unquie spells could be created which are SK specific (Which I also mentioned earlier in the thread ;) ).
This is honestly the best and simplest fix for the templar. ;)
Sysane has some good points as well.
Never had too much issue with the templar, though I have only ran twice with the DS rules (several versions) and only one player played a templar (mainly because he didn't like DS and that was all he did like about it) and was pretty biased towards them and didn't seem to have any issues with them either.
It will be good to make them a bit less cookie cutter though when it comes to their respective SMs.
I also suggest adding a sidebar for those SMs that are dead for those of us that like to start off before the PP and actually let the players change the world up if they feel the need. ;)
:bounce:
Naggaramakam Lore is based off the Knowledge domain, while Shadows of the King is mostly collection of shadow-based illusions.
The granted powers come from the Knowledge and Trickery domains respectively, but since templars already have all Knowledge skills and Bluff as class skills, these powers aren't as good as the original domains are for clerics. I don't know if that's good or bad.
Naggaramakam Lore
Granted Power: You cast divination spells at +1 caster level.
- Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
- Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
- Tongues: Speak any language.
- Divination: Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
- True Seeing: Lets you see all things as they really are.
- Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.
- Legend Lore: Lets you learn tales about a person, place, or thing.
- Discern Location: Reveals exact location of creature or object.
- Foresight: “Sixth sense” warns of impending danger.
Shadows of the King
Granted Power: Add Disguise and Hide to you list of templar class skills.
- Disguise Self: Changes your appearance.
- Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
- Nondetection: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
- Shadow Conjuration: Mimics conjuration below 4th level, but only 20% real.
- Shadow Evocation: Mimics evocation below 5th level, but only 20% real.
- Shadow Walk: Step into shadow to travel rapidly.
- Project Image: Illusory double can talk and cast spells.
- Shadow Conjuration, Greater: As shadow conjuration, but up to 6th level and 60% real.
- Shadow Evocation, Greater: As shadow evocation, but up to 7th level and 60% real.
Maybe something like this for Nibenay. Choose one of these plus the Sorcerer Monarch domain for a total of two. These are just possible lists of spells that came to be quickly based on the Shadow King's affinity for knowledge and secrets.
Naggaramakam Lore is based off the Knowledge domain, while Shadows of the King is mostly collection of shadow-based illusions.
The granted powers come from the Knowledge and Trickery domains respectively, but since templars already have all Knowledge skills and Bluff as class skills, these powers aren't as good as the original domains are for clerics. I don't know if that's good or bad.
This is exactly what I'm proposing. I still don't feel a brand new set of domains needs to be created for evey SK though. The existing ones would work fine IMO. At the most, the domain granted powers could be changed slightly in order to better fit a specific SK.
The same can be said about the Initiate feats scheme. Both options modify very little or not at all the existing templar, which can only be a good thing.
I do like domains taking the place of assigned spells. Although I don't necessarily think it's a requirement to go whole-hog and create all new domains for this ... many of the existing domains would work just fine for the SKs.
I'm not entirely sure about how I feel about initiate feats.
I do like domains taking the place of assigned spells. Although I don't necessarily think it's a requirement to go whole-hog and create all new domains for this ... many of the existing domains would work just fine for the SKs.
Ok- here is what I am doing.
Some of the SK domains are almost exactly like the ones in the SRD, some will be slightly changed.
I am also making Bureaus - templar job domains. The Bureau 'domain' will be able to be switched, something a cleric cannot do- and some of the benefits are lost and then others are gained. The 'granted powers' are more skill related to the jobs the templars will do. Here is an example
MAGISTRATE BUREAU
Granted Power: Knowledge (local) and Sense Motive are considered class skills while you are a templar within the bureau. In addition, while you have are in the magistrate bureau, you add +2 to all Knowledge (local) and Sense Motive Checks.
Magistrate Bureau Spells
1 Command: One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
2 Zone of Truth: Subjects within range cannot lie.
3 Bestow Curse: –6 to an ability score; –4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action.
4 Scrying (F): Spies on subject from a distance.
5 Mark of Justice: Designates action that will trigger curse on subject.
6 Geas/Quest: As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
7 Forcecage (M): Cube or cage of force imprisons all inside.
8 Binding (M): Utilizes an array of techniques to imprison a creature.
9 Imprisonment: Entombs subject beneath the earth.
Some of the other bureaus I am working on are:
SECURITY BUREAU
GAMES BUREAU
WAR BUREAU
WORKS BUREAU
SCRIBES BUREAU
These names are not final, just ideas.
I'm not entirely sure about how I feel about initiate feats.
I do like domains taking the place of assigned spells. Although I don't necessarily think it's a requirement to go whole-hog and create all new domains for this ... many of the existing domains would work just fine for the SKs.
Agreed. The granted domains powers could be tweaked a bit and some new SK specific spells would accomplish the same IMO.
They don't necessarily need to replace templar-domains, but I think it'd be a good mechanism for templars.
Although the use of initiate feats just seems to me to be adding another domain to the templars list. Changing the domains with change in position within the templarate IMHO is a better option. It could give the use of what would be an initiate feat without the loss of the feat slot.
The idea of giving the templar domains didn't appeal to me first. But Kal's idea with the bureaus sounds realy good. If it's going to be that the templar has to choose his Soccerer Monarch and a burau when he begins to play, it'll be fine with me. The templar could than change (with the DM's approval) his bureau, loosing all the benefits from the old bureau and gaining the ones of the new one, at a certain number of level, but the "domain" of his soccerer monarch would be fix.
My only concern with changing domains is if domain powers include things like "add X Y and Z to your class skills." Class skills are already weird/complicated enough without being able to gain and lose them from your list. It certainly allows for a bit of circumventing of the rules, given that once a skill is a class skill it always is for the purpose of determining max ranks.
I have to say, the other thing that I liked, and it may just be flavor, was that Templars didn't always get to choose their spells, sometimes the SK would give it to them regardless of what they wanted. I'd definitely leave at least one slot open for "assigned spells" and have the DM choose what the templar gets to fill it.
I'm also not sure how I feel about templars being spontaenous casters. The concept of having to ask daily for your spells was definitely part of being a templar. What do other people think?
My only concern with changing domains is if domain powers include things like "add X Y and Z to your class skills." Class skills are already weird/complicated enough without being able to gain and lose them from your list. It certainly allows for a bit of circumventing of the rules, given that once a skill is a class skill it always is for the purpose of determining max ranks.
I'd prefer that if once a skill is no longer a class skill for a character, he would keep the ranks gained but he can't gain any more ranks in that skill, if he has more ranks in that skill than he allowed (rank > max. rank for cross-class skills). This should prevent from swapping the bureau at any possible level, just to gain as many skills as class skills.
I'd prefer that if once a skill is no longer a class skill for a character, he would keep the ranks gained but he can't gain any more ranks in that skill, if he has more ranks in that skill than he allowed (rank > max. rank for cross-class skills). This should prevent from swapping the bureau at any possible level, just to gain as many skills as class skills.
Unfortunately that's generally not the way Class Skills work (that is for multiclass characters, the only other place that something similar occurs). And adding entirely new rules for this particular case doesn't seem like it's worth it.
I would suggest that we simply try to make sure that bureau domains don't give new class skills but give other abilities instead.
would suggest that we simply try to make sure that bureau domains don't give new class skills but give other abilities instead.
I agree.
Unfortunately that's generally not the way Class Skills work (that is for multiclass characters, the only other place that something similar occurs). And adding entirely new rules for this particular case doesn't seem like it's worth it.
I agree. Changing domains sounds like it would be a pretty sticky mechanic. Plus, it seems that it would leave a lot of room to power game. "Hmmm, lets see. I already grabed all the cool spells and abilities from this bureaus/domain, lets move over to the next one and grab the next set of cool spells abilities". Apply, rinse, and repeat.
The mechanic just seems clunky. It would be similar to a psion switching disciplines IMO. I dunno, maybe its just me.
I'm not sure exactly how they would be broken down, but I think some of the sourcebooks have some good guidelines on this....
Chosen of the Oba
You are favored by the Forest Queen.
This kind of generality woul be the thing to avoid with Initiate feats, IMO.
With a title and fluff like you wrote, it leaves no room for several other Initiate feats for the Oba.
If there are 7 SKs and only 7 Initiate feats, that's boring. Also, you can only differentiate a templar by weither he took the feat or not.
Each templar should have access to something like 10 Initiate feats, 8 of those general to all SKs (Security Bureau, Works Bureau, etc, like the categories Kal mentionned), and 2 that are unique to each SK. Examples are making a feat for the Oba templars related to the hunt, or a feat for the Nibenay templars related to the Naggaramakam, etc...
Changing domains sounds like it would be a pretty sticky mechanic. Plus, it seems that it would leave a lot of room to power game. "Hmmm, lets see. I already grabed all the cool spells and abilities from this bureaus/domain, lets move over to the next one and grab the next set of cool spells abilities". Apply, rinse, and repeat.
...implied in the statement, I believe, was the idea that all abilities gained from the domain are lost when you change it for another.
...implied in the statement, I believe, was the idea that all abilities gained from the domain are lost when you change it for another.
Nothing was mentioned about spells gained from having access to those domains though. Are there any rules under the Favored Soul or Mystic (Dragonlance) classes in regards to changing domains? I'd be curious if its addressed by those classes or not.
I would suggest that we simply try to make sure that bureau domains don't give new class skills but give other abilities instead.
I like the idea of different bureaus being associated to different skills, but instead of making them a class skill make granting either a static or level-based skill bonus like:
Treasury Bureau
Granted power: You gain a +3 (or maybe +4) bonus to Appraise checks.
Works Bureau
Granted power: You gain a bonus to Knowledge(Architecture) check equal to half your templar level.
etc...
Please be patient- I will have the domains and stuff out in a day or so along with a write up on the bureau thing too - but you do loose the spells and the skills from your list of class skills if you switch- they would revert to being a cross class skill then, but you keep your ranks.
Loose spells? Are templars no longer spontaneous casters with these new rules Kal? Becasue if they are, thats a HUGE, if not unbalanced, benefit in that a spontaneous caster can repick his entire spell repertoire. A Sorcerer can only switch out a single spell at every even level after 4th.
Loose spells? Are templars no longer spontaneous casters with these new rules Kal? Becasue if they are, thats a HUGE, if not unbalanced, benefit in that a spontaneous caster can repick his entire spell repertoire. A Sorcerer can only switch out a single spell at every even level after 4th.
Wow, good point. I suppose you would have to mention that if the Templar loses any spells then he gets that many replacement spells of equal level from the new list.
It wouldn't be that huge of a benefit seeing as they would have to trade a specific list of spells for another specific list of spells. But, yah I still see what you are saying.
Please be patient- I will have the domains and stuff out in a day or so along with a write up on the bureau thing too - but you do loose the spells and the skills from your list of class skills if you switch- they would revert to being a cross class skill then, but you keep your ranks.
I agree, it's like going to college learning all your trigonometry and calculus and then leaving after 4-5 years and forgetting how to do it as easily once you quit doing it everyday.
I agree, it's like going to college learning all your trigonometry and calculus and then leaving after 4-5 years and forgetting how to do it as easily once you quit doing it everyday.
Which is kinda the point...
Another example would be someone like myself taking 3 years of Latin and forgetting most, if not all of it because I haven't had a need to use it.
There's a reason people that know other languages find ways of practicing them as often as they can, otherwise you start to lose your proficiency in said language.
Each templar should have access to something like 10 Initiate feats, 8 of those general to all SKs (Security Bureau, Works Bureau, etc, like the categories Kal mentionned), and 2 that are unique to each SK. Examples are making a feat for the Oba templars related to the hunt, or a feat for the Nibenay templars related to the Naggaramakam, etc...
Yeah, not sure I like the whole Initiate feat thing and I think I prefer what Kal is trying to do more.
Creating another 10 feats or so just so the templar can have a bit more punch and flavor is a bit too much don't you think?
Creating another 10 feats or so just so the templar can have a bit more punch and flavor is a bit too much don't you think?
DS has a reverse setup to FR when you think about it. FR has dozens of gods and a single Initiate feat for each, while DS has a few SKs, which IMO ought to mean we'd need to create more Initiate feats.
The design idea for FR was to become more of a cleric to your god, but since there are dozens of gods the designers are forced to limit themselves to one feat per god if they want to cover most of the popular gods.
With DS we have the chance to go in another way since we have so few "gods". You might have one feat per SK, like in FR, but also a pool of general feats that templars can take.
Examples for Tyr:
Templar #1 is a professional of construction and has the King's Works intitiate feat. (That feat is a general feat availlable to templars from all cities.)
Templar #2 is his boss but is a favorite of the king, and as such has the King's Works feat plus the Kalak's Favored feat. (That last one is unique to Tyr.)
With Initiate feats, since you give access to spells not part of the templar spell list, you can do pretty amazing things.
DS has a reverse setup to FR when you think about it. FR has dozens of gods and a single Initiate feat for each, while DS has a few SKs, which IMO ought to mean we'd need to create more Initiate feats.
The design idea for FR was to become more of a cleric to your god, but since there are dozens of gods the designers are forced to limit themselves to one feat per god if they want to cover most of the popular gods.
So what FR book did this all start in?
So far I'm not all that impressed, but maybe I need to look at it more. Found some interesting stuff on the web about it all as well when I did a search earlier, but if I knew which FR book it came from I could at least try and check that out and see how the mechanics work, because right now it sounds like a lot more uneccessary work than what Kal is doing currently.
...if I knew which FR book it came from I could at least try and check that out and see how the mechanics work...
Check out Player's Guide to Faerûn, pages 80-82; City of Splendors: Waterdeep page 145; Champions of Valor pages 30-32; Champions of Ruin pages 23-25; and Shining South page 20.
This time not in FR, check out Races of Destiny, pages 154-156.
...because right now it sounds like a lot more uneccessary work than what Kal is doing currently.
Work? Let me try and explain how I see this.
Each such feat is...a marrying of flavor, fluff, and mechanics, in a kind of dance. Each is a small spark of excitement waiting to shine through our creative intervention.
Sorry for the poetic language but I find this whole enterprise crazily exciting. Work? You mean excitement and future enjoyment, don't you? Like creating a really good item or PrC, you just know hundreds of people are gonna like it and that you've expanded and enriched their private world through it.
I envy the creative process the Feats Bureau will go through if they're asked to do this. I just hope they realise how exciting this can be, instead of being more work.
The most obvious way to model this is with a prestige class. There are many divine-casting prestige classes tied to specific deities or particular themes, easily found in Complete Divine, various Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, and the like. Some add extra domains, and prestige classes with their own spell lists may even add unique spells, spells at a different level than for a base class list, or the ability to cast domain spells with "regular" spell slots or to spontaneously cast certain domain spells. There are even divine-themed prestige classes that don't enhance your spellcasting but give you other kinds of class abilities while keeping with the flavor of the religion. Still, prerequisites can make prestige classes hard to manage, and like adding new domains, adding new prestige classes further bloats an already overstuffed menu of options, even if they're really cool.
An easier method is to use feats. Feats are also in limited supply, so this is not a perfect solution, but it's easier to spiff up your divine casting in an interesting thematic way without totally derailing your character build. Examples of such feats can be found in Races of Faerûn and in the Player's Guide to Faerûn. In the Player's Guide, "initiate" feats indicate that you "have been initiated into the greatest secrets of [whomever's] church." These feats have some prerequisites, the foremost being worship of the deity in question (so no taking two initiate feats!), but also membership in some divine spellcasting class (usually cleric but often also paladin, ranger, druid, or even certain prestige classes), sometimes with a minimum level. They give a benefit somewhat akin to a domain's granted power, linked to the deity's area of influence (e.g., Initiates of Malar the Beastlord summon stronger, fiercer natural or fiendish animals with their summon monster/summon nature's ally spells). They also add a handful of spells to your regular spell list, sometimes spells that only an initiate can cast and sometimes spells that are normally domain spells but that you can now cast with normal spell slots.
There's also evidence that some of the fans think that some of the existing Initiate feats are unbalanced or silly, which is - thankfully for us - simply a precautionnary tale to remember when designing our own Initiate feats. Athas.org is not WotC, it can put out balanced feats if the heart is in it.
The balance of the Initiate feats is haphazard at best, with more than one blatantly exploitable thing.(Yes, the Initiate feats are detailed in the spell section, not in the Feats section) An Initiate of Mystra can make a caster level check against DC 11 + caster level of an Antimagic Field to be able to cast in the field. So, uh, a high level cieric with this feat can cast a CL 11 scroll of antimagic field and then proceed to cast most of their spells freely while being basically immune to magic. You'd think that someone might have noticed an obvious exploit like that, and said something before the book went to print! In contrast, some Initiate feat powers are just plain silly and useless. Initiate of Nature grants the ability to turn plants... but wait, the Plant domain already grants that. And most clerics who are going to take this Initiate feat have the Plant domain... The power delta between the Initiate feats shows that if there was any effort for balance made here, it failed outright.
There isn't much difference between an initiate feat and a domain other then the fact that you can (or have to) take them as feats, rather then them being granted. They don't grant as many extra spells as a domain... but if they were automatically added to the Templar's spell list then they could serve as a significant power boost, but still have the expense of a feat tied to them.
I'm not so sure about this idea of having a whole bunch of initiate feats for each SK though. If they do automatically grant the spells it would be over powered to allow a character to take multiple initiate feats and if they don't then they end up not really giviing the class a power boost at all. Of course if they don't, they could be automatically granted but then why not just use domains at that point?
Aren't the problems related to the spell aquisition in a domain the same as those in the Initiate feats?
I'm reading up on the introduction to the Initiate feats in A Player's Guide to Faerûn, and it says...surprise surprise, that a character can only have one Initiate feat. So in that regard a character has the same limitations with Initiate feats as he does with Regional feats. A Player's Guide says that this limitation is due to the fact that "such a feat presumes a deep level of commitement to a single deity". We can apply or not this restriction. I'd still like it if there were many Initiate feats to choose from, not just the one for your particular SK. A single feat for each SK that has the worship of that SK as a prerequisite, and a pool of feats that has the worship of any one SK as a prerequisite would work for me.
I checked, and the spells that the FR Initiate feats grant are said to be "added to your cleric spell list", and are limited to those spells that are unique to your god. For example, the understand device spell is one spell granted by the Initiate of Gond feat, and that spell says in its Level section: Initiate of Gond 3
Since there are very little or no SK-specific spells in DS3 or anywhere that I know of, we could instead say that the spells an Initiate feat grants are spells from outside the templar list. I cna see here many possibilities, especialy for Oronis and Lalali-Puy. Think about a few druid/ranger spells made availlable to the Oba's templars...
Considering all of this, we can say that athasians can only take one Initiate feat, each grants an ability like the one gained when taking a domain, and the spells they grant come from outside of the templar list and are added to it. How does this sound to those who know the rules concerning clerics and templars and have experienced them before?
]I checked, and the spells that the FR Initiate feats grant are said to be "added to your cleric spell list"
This is an important difference between initiate feats and domains. The domain mechanism allows you to memorize a single spell per spell level per day. You cannot memorize a domain spell in a regular slot unless the spell is on your spell list otherwise. An initiate feat adds the spell to your spell list so you could theoretically memorize it as many times as you want.
I'm also not entirely clear on the mechanics of whether domain spells are considered as being on your spell list for things like using wands and scrolls, which require a UMD if the spell isn't on your spell list.
Just something to keep in mind.
I'm not sure what the best mechanism would be for Templars, who have a spells know list unlike clerics, would be. Adding to spells known may be overpowered, I'm not sure.
(Also if you want imbalance in the iniatiate feats, check out the Peolor feat from Races of Destiny which grants the clerics Summon Monster spells.... which they already have.)
And if WotC really thinks that feats aren't another over bloated menu of options then I'm going to have to laugh in their face next time I see someone that works for them.
Seriously, this sounds like nothing more than a propaganda piece for FR and yet again balance is thrown out the window in an attempt to just create something that the kiddies will like.
I'm going to still read up on what and how they work, but this whole thing is throwing up red flags left and right when we can easily just stick with what we know and make better domains like Kal is doing.
The concept of domains is cool too, but there has been unbalancing choices made there in the past as well. I recall a certain Sun domain or other that grants greater turning...
What I'm hinting at here is that all of these things are flawed, but our own versions do not need to be, and as such we have to ask ourselves what mechanic is the one we want to use, and choose not what is familiar, easy, or simple, but what is best. Now as to what that is, beats me!
As for Sigil, I have never been to fond of that ability and would be happy to see if go entirely to make room for templars to receive turning undead at 1st level.
Speaking of turning, why is that the templar gets the ability to turn undead at 3rd level and not 1st? Please tell me its not due to a perceived balance issue, because I honestly don't see one. Secular Authority really isn't that poweful of an ability to bump turning to a 3rd level class ability.
Are you questioning why the templar turns undead at two levels lower than the cleric? Or why templars get the ability to turn undead at 3rd level? I know they sort of go together but they are two different things...
Personally, I don't think templars should be as effective at turning undead as clerics no matter what level they get it at.
You should know perfectly by now that the dubious elements of those novels are few and unrelated to everyday happenings in athasians' lives. The depiction of Hamanu's templars complement those of Kalak's, painting a clearer and richer picture of how templarhood works and what it can accomplish.
I have no idea if the people who made the 3E templar and its sigil actually based it on Abbey, I was simply connecting the dots.
Are you questioning why the templar turns undead at two levels lower than the cleric? Or why templars get the ability to turn undead at 3rd level? I know they sort of go together but they are two different things...
Personally, I don't think templars should be as effective at turning undead as clerics no matter what level they get it at.
I'm questioning on why they get it at 3rd level rather than 1st. They could be able to rebuke undead earlier than that IMO, especially when their not getting much at 1st level. At the very least, it could be brought down to a 2nd level ability.
I'm also not sure how I feel about templars being spontaenous casters. The concept of having to ask daily for your spells was definitely part of being a templar. What do other people think?
They still have to ask for their spells. They just have to do it at the time of casting, rather than in the morning.
Urrgh....Basing an official class mechanic on a questionably canon source? Might a well throw elflings in the next update. :P ;)
How did you know I was adding those to the next version of ToA?
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!
:bounce:
I'm questioning on why they get it at 3rd level rather than 1st. They could be able to rebuke undead earlier than that IMO, especially when their not getting much at 1st level. At the very least, it could be brought down to a 2nd level ability.
Because third level is the lowest level at which the Templar can use the ability.
She turns undead as a cleric two levels lower would.
Which means that at 2nd level, the Templar would turn undead as a 0-level cleric would -- not at all.
And turning is based on your class level, not your character level.
Because third level is the lowest level at which the Templar can use the ability.
Which means that at 2nd level, the Templar would turn undead as a 0-level cleric would -- not at all.
And turning is based on your class level, not your character level.
Sigh...You're talking semantics, but I'll play your game. Why is that a templar "turns two levels lower"? Why not have them start even steven at 1st?
Templars obviously have far less facility with the channeling of positive and negative energy then clerics, which is as it should be. I wouldn't want to see them on par with clerics for turning.
Do elemental clerics channel positive and negative energies though? I always just assumed it was the energy granted by their patron element and had nothing to do with the postive or negative material planes.
According to old 2E Dark Sun cosmology the positive and negative energy planes were elemental planes. Sort of meta-elements. I think it's perfectly valid for clerics to continue to tap into those sources for things like undead turning and spontaneous cure/inflict spells
Under that logic though, templars should have MORE of a connection due to the the SK's Living Vortices being connected to ALL the elemental planes.
I just don't see a good reason why templars can't turn/rebuke undead as good as clerics. If anything, elemental clerics should be worse at turning undead than templars.
Under that logic though, templars should have MORE of a connection due to the the SK's Living Vortices being connected to ALL the elemental planes.
Or perhaps since they're siphoning energy off instead of being granted it, they have less access to the positive and negative planes.
I just don't see a good reason why templars can't turn/rebuke undead as good as clerics. If anything, elemental clerics should be worse at turning undead than templars.
Do you mean a rules reason or a fluff reason? If you're looking for a rules reason, everyone's given it to you: clerics are the masters of turning undead, to take that away changes what they are, fundamentally. As for a fluff reason, it's easy to make one of those up. There's the one I just said above. There's the whole "Elementals consider undead to be unnatural" thing for clerics, whereas I doubt you can say the same for SKs. You could explain it pretty much however you want.
Or perhaps since they're siphoning energy off instead of being granted it, they have less access to the positive and negative planes.
That could be an explanation, but the SKs are "granting" the templar their spells not siphoning it to them. Its all in how you want to look at it I guess.
Do you mean a rules reason or a fluff reason? If you're looking for a rules reason, everyone's given it to you: clerics are the masters of turning undead, to take that away changes what they are, fundamentally. As for a fluff reason, it's easy to make one of those up. There's the one I just said above. There's the whole "Elementals consider undead to be unnatural" thing for clerics, whereas I doubt you can say the same for SKs. You could explain it pretty much however you want.
The rules answers people have given so far have been in the light of "well, thats just the way it is" rather than a real concrete reasoning. I've seen other D20 products that have other classes turn just as well as clerics. Yes, you can always make up a fluff reason, but I can also give you fluff reasons why the templar can turn undead just as good as a cleric.
The rules answers people have given so far have been in the light of "well, thats just the way it is" rather than a real concrete reasoning.
Because you don't like it doesn't change that the fact that the cleric [b]in 3.x D&D[/b] has been reserved as the best undead turner of the classes. Prestige classes not withstanding. That's "well, just the way it is". It is a conscious choice the game designers have stuck to because they want clerics to be the best class at turning undead. Just as with the prestige class restrictions monks and paladins had... the game designers did that because they chose to for flavor reasons. It is a real reason.
If you disagree with the choice be kind enough to just say you disagree, or don't understand, rather than say there isn't a "real concrete reason".
Now, if you'd like to give templars a boost so they can rebuke undead equal to negative-channeling clerics, I think you could make an argument there. Say, channel positive (turning undead) as a 3rd level cleric but channel negative (rebuke undead) as equal level clerics... it seems to it could be called a little bit more complicated but I'd go with it.
Because you don't like it doesn't change that the fact that the cleric [b]in 3.x D&D[/b] has been reserved as the best undead turner of the classes. Prestige classes not withstanding. That's "well, just the way it is". It is a conscious choice the game designers have stuck to because they want clerics to be the best class at turning undead. Just as with the prestige class restrictions monks and paladins had... the game designers did that because they chose to for flavor reasons. It is a real reason.
Not all games designers have stuck with that though. As I've said, there are other d20 games that have classes, not PrCs, that can turn dead just as good as clerics. If I'm not mistaken, Dragonlance's Mystic can turn undead just as good as a cleric so long as they have access to the Sun domain.
If you disagree with the choice be kind enough to just say you disagree, or don't understand, rather than say there isn't a "real concrete reason".
Sorry, there really isn't though. Maybe I just don't see it because I've seen this "balance" broken or bent in other d20 products. If you don't agree, or have not seen them for yourself, thats fine. However, the standard is there for other non-cleric classes to be able to turn undead just as good as clerics.
Now, if you'd like to give templars a boost so they can rebuke undead equal to negative-channeling clerics, I think you could make an argument there. Say, channel positive (turning undead) as a 3rd level cleric but channel negative (rebuke undead) as equal level clerics... it seems to it could be called a little bit more complicated but I'd go with it.
I more or less did on post 18 on this page.
...They could be able to rebuke undead earlier than that IMO, especially when their not getting much at 1st level. At the very least, it could be brought down to a 2nd level ability.
I still feel that there's no good reason why templars shouldn't be able to turn (in the case of Oronis' templars) as well as rebuke undead just as good as clerics.
Check out Player's Guide to Faerûn, pages 80-82; City of Splendors: Waterdeep page 145; Champions of Valor pages 30-32; Champions of Ruin pages 23-25; and Shining South page 20.
This time not in FR, check out Races of Destiny, pages 154-156.
There are more feats in Dragon #342. The article's author, Zherog, just informed me. He likes a lot the Initiate concept.
Maybe I just don't see it because I've seen this "balance" broken or bent in other d20 products.
No one has called it balance. I certainly never did. The decision by 3.5 D&D's designers to have the cleric class be the best undead turner (at least for now) has always been described as a ultimately a flavor reason. It's a real reason.
That some other D20 game designers have decide to infringe on that bit of generic D&D "flavor" doesn't change that WotC designers wanted it for core D&D... it also doesn't mean that those D20 designers are doing anything wrong... it never was a mechanical game balance no matter how much you say it is. It has always been flavor.
And as much leeway as Athas.org is given with coming up with new stuff by WotC, I'm pretty sure they are also being tasked with keeping new Dark Sun material as close to the philosophy behind 3.x D&D as possible without violating the setting. I appreciate that Athas.org has been pretty conservative in changes from D&D to core DS3 rules. *shrug*
No one has called it balance. I certainly never did. The decision by 3.5 D&D's designers to have the cleric class be the best undead turner (at least for now) has always been described as a ultimately a flavor reason. It's a real reason.
I'm not contesting that clerics ARE the best undead turner, only that there's no reason that another class, the templar, can't do it as equally as good. There's only two core classes in the SRD/PHB that even have the ability. To say that the templar shouldn't be able to turn undead as good just because of the flavor put forward by those source isn't reason enough not to give it them.
That some other D20 game designers have decide to infringe on that bit of generic D&D "flavor" doesn't change that WotC designers wanted it for core D&D... it also doesn't mean that those D20 designers are doing anything wrong... it never was a mechanical game balance no matter how much you say it is. It has always been flavor.
I wouldn't say that the other designers are "infringing" more as that they're being innovative with the rules/mechanics in order to capture the flavor of their game world.
And as much leeway as Athas.org is given with coming up with new stuff by WotC, I'm pretty sure they are also being tasked with keeping new Dark Sun material as close to the philosophy behind 3.x D&D as possible without violating the setting. I appreciate that Athas.org has been pretty conservative in changes from D&D to core DS3 rules. *shrug
I don't know. If the folks at Athas.org are allowed come with 3.5 mechanics that allow for wizards to power their spells thru plant life and change into dragons, I don't think creating a new base class that can turn undead as if they were a cleric of the same level is going to break any major gaming doctrines or shake the very pillars of WotC itself.
I don't know. If the folks at Athas.org are allowed come with 3.5 mechanics that allow for wizards to power their spells thru plant life and change into dragons, I don't think creating a new base class that can turn undead as if they were a cleric of the same level is going to break any major gaming doctrines or shake the very pillars of WotC itself.
Never-the-less they've chosen not to change it, and I think the majority of people see that as perfectly acceptable.
Sure I don't see any reason templars couldn't turn/rebuke just as well if the designers wanted them to, but they don't seem to. And just as there's no reason for them not to be able to turn as well, there's really no reason for them to be able to turn as well either, so it's really up to the choice of the designers. (Well technically, I guess it's a DM choice as it wouldn't be that hard to bump Templar's turn/rebuking up to first and give them full-templar-level turning abilities).
Never-the-less they've chosen not to change it, and I think the majority of people see that as perfectly acceptable.
Sure I don't see any reason templars couldn't turn/rebuke just as well if the designers wanted them to, but they don't seem to. And just as there's no reason for them not to be able to turn as well, there's really no reason for them to be able to turn as well either, so it's really up to the choice of the designers. (Well technically, I guess it's a DM choice as it wouldn't be that hard to bump Templar's turn/rebuking up to first and give them full-templar-level turning abilities).
Wasn't this thread started to report and discuss possible changes to the templar's class features?
I'm proposing that they have a stronger undead turning ability in order to make templars an all around better and stronger class. That may or may not happen, but I just wanted to voice that opinion/option.
As MysticTheurge has pointed out, your own arguments can be reversed and used against you Sysane.
Ummm...yeah? So thats a solid reason to not look outside of the box and give the templar a small boost in their abilities? I don't think so. I admit that it could go either way, but its not reason enough to disallow a templar being a stronger turner.
I personally would rather see them as lesser channelers of positive and negative energy. I think it's in fitting with their 2nd ed. slowed spell progression and their indirect connection with the elemental planes. That being said I would not be opposed to a PrC that grants templars greater turning or rebuking abilities. I could see the former being Templars of Oronis, and the latter being Templars of Dregoth.
I personally wouldn't. But your welcome to your opinion just as I am to mine
Ummm...yeah? So thats a solid reason to not look outside of the box and give the templar a small boost in their abilities? I don't think so. I admit that it could go either way, but its not reason enough to disallow a templar being a stronger turner.
Instead of coming pretty close to insulting some of us, why don't, you know, actually make an argument as to why other than "I think they should just because and I don't understand why they aren't".
;)
You've made better arguments before and have convinced me, not sure why you are being so bullheaded on this issue and not making a stronger argument then you are.
Instead of coming pretty close to insulting some of us, why don't, you know, actually make an argument as to why other than "I think they should just because and I don't understand why they aren't".
;)
You've made better arguments before and have convinced me, not sure why you are being so bullheaded on this issue and not making a stronger argument then you are.
The same type of argument is being used against me. That being "I think they shouldn't be able to because they weren't that way from the begining ".
Templars should be better at rebuking than they are just for the very reason of who they serve and get their powers from. Back in the Dragon King's supplement, there were whole stats written up for undead legions used by the SKs. Why would they grant their subjects/minions (templars) a subpar ability to control them? Why would an evil cleric who worships an element, who has been theorized in this very thread as being opposed to undead, be able to better rebuke/control them? Heck, why should they be able to control them at all? If anything, templars should be better able to rebuke/command them and the cleric better at turning/destorying them.
I could even see the argument that para-elemental clerics are better able to rebuke/command undead than turn them due to the para-elemental planes being closer to the negative material one (at least in the old 2e cosomotology).
I just don't think giving templars a stronger ability to rebuke/command undead should be dismissed entirely. I'm changing my view slightly in that I feel templars should be able to ONLY rebuke/command undead and not necessarily turn/destory them like a cleric.
The same type of argument is being used against me. That being "I think they shouldn't be able to because they weren't that from the begining ".
Except that we are the designers and your job is to convince us that we need to change our minds, not the other way around. ;)
However, better argument and good job on making a stronger one.
I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced, but I don't really matter since I'm not even in the class bureau. Maybe you have worked your way on convincing them though.
The same type of argument is being used against me. That being "I think they shouldn't be able to because they weren't that from the begining ".
That wasn't my argument, FWIW.
Templars should be better at rebuking than they are just for the very reason of who they serve and get their powers from. Back in the Dragon King's supplement, there were whole stats written up for undead legions used by the SKs. Why would they grant their subjects/minions (templars) a subpar ability to control them?
I always felt that those undead legions were created and controlled by their sorcerer monarch's necromancers, not their templars. I believe it had been mentioned that the sorcerer monarchs had their own stable of necromancers... why have necromancers for your undead legions if templars could do it just as well?
Why would and evil cleric who worships an element, who has been theorized in this very thread as being opposed to undead, be able to better rebuke/control them?
That is something that troubled me as well. In my homebrew I've polished up my Athasian cosmology such that it makes more consistent sense.
Heck, why should they be able to control them at all? If anything, templars should be better able to rebuke/command them and the cleric better at turning/destorying them.
If someone would be a stickler about the supposed supremacy of the philosophy of the elements against undead, I could see that as a reasonable choice by someone running a campaign. Especially since rebuking undead tends to be more represented by NPCs and the templar class being primarily designed as an NPC class... Even then one could dig out the AD&D templar: "Templars have power over undead, but only to raise or ally with them, never to turn them away. As discussed for evil priests and undead in the Player's Handbook, this is resolved in the same way as a turning attempt. Up to 12 undead can be commanded. A "T" result means the undead automatically obey the templar, while a "D" means the undead become completely subservient to the templar. They follow his commands (to the best of their ability and understanding) until turned, commanded, or destroyed by another." If someone has their AD&D 2nd Ed PHB handy, they can find out if that means that templars once "rebuked" as well as evil clerics did...
I could even see the argument that para-elemental clerics are better able to rebuke/command undead than turn them due to the para-elemental planes being closer to the negative material one (at least in the old 2e cosomotology).
I did just such a thing with my homebrew Athasian cosmology. For my campaign, regardless of cleric's alignment, clerics of air, earth, fire or water all turned undead; clerics of magma, rain, silt, and sun all rebuked undead.
Except that we are the designers and your job is to convince us that we need to change our minds, not the other way around. ;)
However, better argument and good job on making a stronger one.
I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced, but I don't really matter since I'm not even in the class bureau. Maybe you have worked your way on convincing them though.
I have more points. Don't you worry
I could even see the argument that para-elemental clerics are better able to rebuke/command undead than turn them due to the para-elemental planes being closer to the negative material one (at least in the old 2e cosomotology).
Actually I think I did this at one time back in the days when I ran 2e, it just made more sense to me then.
Now I'm sort of neutral, but I see the valid points being made.
I did just such a thing with my homebrew Athasian cosmology. For my campaign, regardless of cleric's alignment, clerics of air, earth, fire or water all turned undead; clerics of magma, rain, silt, and sun all rebuked undead.
That makes perfect sense to me. Now just throw templars in there to rebuke undead or par with para-elemental clerics and we'll see eye-to-eye ;)
Kings Fanatic.
Requirements: Sorceror King or Queen as a patron.
Special:Due to your fanatic devotion to your monarch you turn undead equal to your Templar level.
Normal: Templars turn undead 2 levels lower.
Something like that worded better though.
Originally I quite liked this idea, especially Sysane's simplified approach of a single SK domain plus maybe 1 other from the standard list. I'm not big on introducing a whole load of domains, spells, feats just to represent flavour if possible.
However, I feel there is a problem with giving domains to a spontaneous caster. Half the point of a spontaneous caster is that they can cast any of their spells as many times a day as they want, up to their limit. However domain spells are completely the reverse of this. You get one spell of each level in a special domain slot (prepared). So lets say there was some cool SK based spell which was 4th level and you gained it from your domain, you could only actually cast it once per day, whereas all your standard spells you could cast multiple times. If you take the example of the Favoured Soul which is Wizard's main divine spontaneous caster, they do not gain access to domains, possibly for this reason.
I prefer the Initiate feat idea for several reasons. Firstly it can be taken at later levels which means that you can use it to represent a level in a hierachy thematically. Secondly it adds the selected spells to the known list which means they can be used multiple times. It also covers the base of adding skills to the class
I have no problem with having a few advanced initiate feats which could be taken at higher levels with higher pre reqs
The templar class could grant a bonus feat which would allow taking of one of these initiate feats at a certain level or levels, plus they could be taken stand alone (depending on the pre reqs) for those cities that no longer have SK's
As I said on that thread, the domains I am trying to adapt still need a bit of work though.
The idea about templars getting domains..
Originally I quite liked this idea, especially Sysane's simplified approach of a single SK domain plus maybe 1 other from the standard list. I'm not big on introducing a whole load of domains, spells, feats just to represent flavour if possible.
However, I feel there is a problem with giving domains to a spontaneous caster. Half the point of a spontaneous caster is that they can cast any of their spells as many times a day as they want, up to their limit. However domain spells are completely the reverse of this. You get one spell of each level in a special domain slot (prepared). So lets say there was some cool SK based spell which was 4th level and you gained it from your domain, you could only actually cast it once per day, whereas all your standard spells you could cast multiple times. If you take the example of the Favoured Soul which is Wizard's main divine spontaneous caster, they do not gain access to domains, possibly for this reason.
Yes, but if you look at the Mystic class from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (an offical WotC release I might add) they're spontaneous casters simliar to templars that have to choose a domain. If I'm not mistaken, the way they work is that the mystic has access to all cleric spells but must choose a domain spell as one of there known spells at each level.
Yes, but if you look at the Mystic class from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (an offical WotC release I might add) they're spontaneous casters simliar to templars that have to choose a domain. If I'm not mistaken, the way they work is that the mystic has access to all cleric spells but must choose a domain spell as one of there known spells at each level.
Ah I see, however if thats the case surely that weakens the spontaneous caster to some degree as their first (I assume it must be the first known of each new spell level) spell must be a fixed spell from their domain which removes some of their flexibility of choice
I see the initiate feats as sort of variant domains to be honest which also grant domain like powers, extra spells known but can be taken at later levels. Obviously they have a cost in the form of pre reqs and a feat but the templar class could grant them as a bonus feat and it also leaves it open to non templar classes too if desired
I would kind of see it as at 1st you get the generic basics of a templar, at 3rd turn/rebuke undead, at 6th maybe an initiate feat and maybe 11th some form of advanced initiate feat
I would prefer to see the current diplomacy based checks more of a skill use guideline - like an expanded use of skills as per the complete books - than a built in mechanic based on templar level. As a DM i'm quite happy for a lower level templar to have more political/social power than a higher level templar if needs be
Ah I see, however if thats the case surely that weakens the spontaneous caster to some degree as their first (I assume it must be the first known of each new spell level) spell must be a fixed spell from their domain which removes some of their flexibility of choice
Thats exactly how the templar currently works, except they're being bottle-necked into taking the first power on their templar spell list at each spell level. With having access to two domains they at least have a choice between two spells (one from the SK domain or one from another domain associated with the SK) vs the one choice they used to have. They would also gain two domain powers where they didn't have any before. That seems like a fair trade off to me.