Greyhawkers unite and take over!!!
Not that I'm complaining, I like vanilla. :-)
L
:D
Greyhawk is the WotC default setting for all published materials.
Um, unless the adventure blurb says "an Eberron adventure" or "a Forgotten Realms adventure" or what have you, ALL of the Dungeon adventures are set in Greyhawk.
Not necessarily. The difference between generic and Greyhawk is in proper names. In fact, Greyhawk-specific adventures are labeled as such. Generic adventures are plainly generic, not Greyhawk.
What's it about?
In one word: Demogorgon.
L
The Known World/Mystara is a setting almost as old as Greyhawk and which deserves attention of its own. Methink GH is rich enough as it is without having to "borrow" from other worlds (and, yes, I'm aware it was first done in Dungeon #114).
For instance, if they really wanted a "lost world" island, why not use the one from Isle of the Ape? Sure, it's set in a demiplane created by Zagyg but so what? It's not as if that would have prevented Demogorgon from perverting it somehow.
Ah well...
Savage Tide, eh?
What's it about?
This was posted on ENWorld:
When your player characters defeat the Wormgod Kyuss at the pulse-pounding conclusion of the Age of Worms Adventure Path in this very issue, they will have rescued the world itself from an unspeakable danger. They end the campaign as sovereigns of their own nation, inheriting the problems of a kingdom beset on all sides by political and military challenges. From their posh palace chambers in Alhaster they'll look out with a mixture of pride and melancholy at the waters of the Lake of Unknown Depths, remembering the simplicity of their humble beginnings. Chances are strong your players will be looking for new challenges too.
In four short months DUNGEON comes to the rescue with the Savage Tide Adventure Path, a 12-installment campaign designed to take charaters from the heady days of first level all the way to the responsibilities of level 20. Running every month from issue #139 to the milestone DUNGEON #150, the Savage Tide takes plauers on an ocean voyage that begins in the fecund southern jungles and leads deep into the heart of the treacherous Lower Planes.
The action begins in the port city of Sasserine, where canny merchant princes exploit the natural wonder of a vast jungle at the very edge of civilization. There, the PCs find themselves in the employ of Lavinia Vanderborn, a young noble who has just inherited her family estate and colonial holdings after the tragic death of her parents. Her younger brother, Vanthus, has fallen in with a bad crowd, and after stealing an unusual black pearl from the trove of a pirate stronghold, he flees to the family's holdings on a distant tropical island - the Isle of Dread. Following Vanthus across the uncharted southern seas leads the PCs to the dinosaur-ridden island, where they discover that similar strange pearls have been placed in cities throughout the world. When the order is given, these pearls will discharge a massive burst of dehumanizing energy - the Savage Tide - that will turn ordinary citizens into cannibalistic savages.
Exploration of the treacherous Isle of Dread and the mysterious plateau at its center represent a major portion of the campaign, but the PCs will have little time to grow complacent, as pirates and the treacherous Vanthus harry the Vanderboren colony. An attempt to stop the pirates leads to Scuttlecove, a scurvy town of buccaneers, yuan-ti, and worse. The PCs thwart the menace of the pirate fleet, only to discover that Vanthus has kidnapped his sister and taken her to the Abyssal realm of his patron, Demogorgon, Prince of Demons and architect of the Savage Tide. By unleashing waves of madness and rage throughout the Material Plane, Demogorgon hopes to reconcile the feuding personalities of his two heads and increase his standing in the Great Wheel. To defeat the most powerful of demon princes, the PCs must negotiate a planar conspiracy aimed at weakening him in his own lair and destroying him once and for all.
An all-star array of our favorite game designers and DUNGEON contributors are already hard at work on the adventures. Managing Editor James Jacobs, author of last issue's "Into the Wormcrawl Fissure" and the silent puppetmaster behind most DUNGEON adventures, will contribute the first installment, "There is No Honor," in DUNGEON #139. That issue also comes with a poster map of Sasserine and a backdrop describing the locale in detail, the first of several to come throughout the series. James's adventure will be followed by installments from Nicolas Logue, Richard Pett, Jason Bulmahn, Stephen S. Greer & Gary Holian, F. Wesley Schneider & James Sutter, Tito Leati, Keith Baker, Sean K Reynolds, Eric L. Boyd, Wolfgang Baur, and Greg A. Vaughn. As with the Age of Worms, a companion series of articles aimed at players will appear in the pages of DRAGON, and lively discussion will take place on paizo.com. In fact, by the time you get this, a new Savage Tide message board is already in operation.
After defeating Kyuss and the Age of Worms, you and your players have earned a few months off. But don't get too comfortable. The Savage Tide is just around the corner!
Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Where is Sasserine?!
I googled, and found this: http://www.fief.org/ShackledCity/Sasserine
Sasserine is a port city north of the Cauldron Region. It sits on the southern edge of the Jeklea Bay, northwest of the Amedio Jungle, and east of the Hellfurnace Mountains.
Sasserine presses four coins: a platinum piece (a "ring"), a gold piece (a "sun"), a silver piece (a "moon"), and a copper piece (a "star"). The coins are common currency in the cities associated with Sasserine, including in the Cauldron Region.
Sasserine has heavy economic ties to the Sea Princes, and acts as a jumping off point for expeditions into the Amedio Jungle (the Cauldron Region) and the Sea of Dust.
While I praise Erik (& his team) for their dedication to GH and the background info released so far about AP3 is intriguing, it still pains me they had to "steal" the Isle of Dread in the process.
Mystara is well and truly dead, so rather than let a great locale like the Isle of Dread go fallow, I decided to incorporate it into the "core" D&D setting. If both Oerth and Mystara can have a Blackmoor, they can both have Isles of Dread, too.
--Erik
Actually, I think most Mystara fans would agree that a Greyhawk Isle of Dread is better than no Isle of Dread at all. Especially if there are phanatons and rakastas. And grab grass!
I googled, and found this: http://www.fief.org/ShackledCity/Sasserine
Aha, yeah I just checked the GH maps from paizo and Sasserine is indeed part of this era Oerth. Having never played AP1 I had heard of Cauldron but not Sasserine. So...from the way it sounds with all the elements described, it shouldn't be such a Flanaess bash like AP2 was. That could be a good thing.
Another thing, I am curious about the involvement of Isle of Dread from an editor standpoint. It was written up almost two years ago and is a fine article with maps and all. Eventually, will Dungeon assume us to have this IoD article to run the Savage Tide, or will it be redone, repackaged, or at least expanded upon?
Mystara is well and truly dead, so rather than let a great locale like the Isle of Dread go fallow, I decided to incorporate it into the "core" D&D setting. If both Oerth and Mystara can have a Blackmoor, they can both have Isles of Dread, too.
--Erik
Oh, don't misunderstand me Erik. I loved the old X1 module and I also love what you have done with it. It's just that as long as Oerth has something equivalent, I don't see why it couldn't be used instead of borrowing bits & pieces from "dead" settings (btw, don't let the Mystara fans catch you saying that on their board :P ).
After all, you also brought back Maure Castle and not Castle Amber and I bet more D&D oldies remember the latter rather than the former... ;)
As for Blackmoor, I wish EGG hadn't "borrowed" it for GH. It has only been a source of confusion for fans of both settings over the years.
After all, you also brought back Maure Castle and not Castle Amber and I bet more D&D oldies remember the latter rather than the former... ;)
As for Blackmoor, I wish EGG hadn't "borrowed" it for GH. It has only been a source of confusion for fans of both settings over the years.
Actually, LG Keoland has adopted Castle Amber. If you check out the history of the Excommunication, Clovis of Amber is cited as a key figure. Tenuous, but it seems that the cunning Triad wanted to lay claim to that classic mod without making it too obvious. So, don't hold your breath, but you never know...
I too would prefer to see more development of core Greyhawk locations akin to recent articles on Hardby, Diamond Lake, and Alhaster. Cauldron seems to me to be very remote, and its entirely mixed population without any satisfactory explanation make it look very much like a DM's tool rather than something that carries with it the spirit of Greyhawk. I thought its overtones were more akin to Sigil than to core Greyhawk.
Having said that, I love these adventure paths and the gazeteer information that they supply inadvertantly (like bits of trivia about the Seekers, key npcs etc). Long may they continue in Greyhawk.
Grab Grass... that brings back memories...
Both of what settings? I'm confused..... Blackmoor was the campaign world of Dave Arneson in the pre published era. It was integrated with GH when Gary's homebrew campaign was converted into a published world. Sensibly, since many of the GH PCs had also adventured there. It was also made part of what became Mystara, but its certainly not a case of GH borrowing it from there.
Not entirely correct. Greyhawk and Blackmoor were from the start two different accessories for the Chainmail system.
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd/dd-sup1-12.htm
http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd/dd-sup2-9.htm
Yes, I know, many of the "oldies" adventured in both worlds with the same characters since their respective authors were friends and played often together.
Still, canon-wise, Blackmoor later went through retcon when the DA1-4 series was published (in 1986-87) and was set firmly in the Known World's past.
And, yes, I'm also aware that the Known World itself was built upon the bits of info that had appeared in the first modules for the oD&D rules.
Still, officially, Blackmoor belongs in Mystara.
Note that I never said Gary borrowed it from Mystara. He borrowed it from Dave for GH, that's all.
Putting it in GH only raises questions and introduces yet more techno-magic to the setting (since we already have two parts of a spaceship in the Barrier Peaks and the infamous Belching Vortex on the opposite side of the Flanaess).
Cauldron seems to me to be very remote, and its entirely mixed population without any satisfactory explanation make it look very much like a DM's tool rather than something that carries with it the spirit of Greyhawk. I thought its overtones were more akin to Sigil than to core Greyhawk.
I have a pretty extensive write up on the Baklunish mage "Zurabar" and how he came to settle the area known now as Cauldron. Sasserine [formerly the Suel colony of Sacarideen in my version] I also detailed quite a bit. Basically they were once part of the Suel Imperium and dealt primarily in enslaving the indigenous Flan peoples that lived in the cliffs and hills of the Crystalmists. After the Twin Cataclysms it devolved (although not very much) into a den of pirates. If I ever get any time I will format it and submit it to Canonfire.
Not entirely correct. Greyhawk and Blackmoor were from the start two different accessories for the Chainmail system.
Those are Dungeons & Dragons supplements, not Chainmail supplements (Chainmail was created before Dave Arneson met Gary Gygax, and inspired him to invent the roleplaying game that would eventually become D&D). And neither contained a significant amount of information on "worlds" - they were rule supplements, intended to be used together. It's not a matter of "Should we use Greyhawk or Blackmoor?" It's a matter of, "Blackmoor has cool monsters like ixitxachitl and sahuagin and the Monk and Assassin classes, while Greyhawk has the Platinum and Chromatic Dragons. My Monk is totally going to kill the Platinum Dragon!"
When AD&D came around, the rules from both Greyhawk and Blackmoor were included as part of it.
Still, canon-wise, Blackmoor later went through retcon when the DA1-4 series was published (in 1986-87) and was set firmly in the Known World's past.
And, yes, I'm also aware that the Known World itself was built upon the bits of info that had appeared in the first modules for the oD&D rules.
Still, officially, Blackmoor belongs in Mystara.
Ironically, the Blackmoor supplement was one that Frank Mentzer was forbidden to use when creating the various (red to gold) D&D rules boxes. That incarnation of the D&D game was only ever created in order to ensure that TSR didn't have to pay Dave Arneson any royalties for AD&D - for some arcane reason TSR lawyers thought creating and maintaining a game called D&D which was, as much as humanly possible, an extension of Arneson and Gygax's original White Box rules would allow AD&D to exist as a fusion of all the original D&D supplements without legal consequences. I don't pretend to understand this.
That's why Mystara has shark-kin instead of sahuagin, devilfish instead of ixitxachitl, and mystics instead of monks.
Why the Blackmoor modules were later introduced for D&D/Mystara and not AD&D/Greyhawk is even weirder. Since Greyhawk already had a Blackmoor, and it's AD&D that used the Blackmoor rules supplement and D&D that ignored it, the latter would have made much more sense.
introduces yet more techno-magic to the setting
A good thing, in my opinion.
Those are Dungeons & Dragons supplements, not Chainmail supplements (Chainmail was created before Dave Arneson met Gary Gygax, and inspired him to invent the roleplaying game that would eventually become D&D). And neither contained a significant amount of information on "worlds" - they were rule supplements, intended to be used together. It's not a matter of "Should we use Greyhawk or Blackmoor?" It's a matter of, "Blackmoor has cool monsters like ixitxachitl and sahuagin and the Monk and Assassin classes, while Greyhawk has the Platinum and Chromatic Dragons. My Monk is totally going to kill the Platinum Dragon!"
When AD&D came around, the rules from both Greyhawk and Blackmoor were included as part of it.
I stand corrected.
A good thing, in my opinion.
That's something about which we'll have to agree to disagree. There are other settings (and game systems) for that.
There were Diamond Lake maps somewhere on the internet with 8 1/2 x 11 inch maps of the village that included DM and player maps. I grabbed them.
Did anyone (probably Paizo) do anything for Alhaster like that? I tried googling but had no luck.
Sorry.
--Erik
That's something about which we'll have to agree to disagree. There are other settings (and game systems) for that.
But Greyhawk did it first (first to be published, at any rate). Why did they put technology in ancient Mystara when it was already established in Greyhawk in the forms of the Machine of Lum the Mad, the servant of Leuk-o, the Barrier Peaks crash, the mention of a crashed alien ship in Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, the powers and inventions of Murlynd and Heward, and the City of the Gods in Blackmoor? It's hard to look at Greyhawk without determining that scattered (but not prevalent) artifacts of technology are a characteristic, defining element of the setting, and including Dave Arneson's Blackmoor in its history would have neatly explained why.
And it wasn't an element of the world described in the 0D&D modules to that date, excepting the "meks" from the Master's Set (who were explained as natives of the Outer Planes in the Immortals series) and the oards from Where Chaos Reigns (who were native to the future of the parallel world of Aelos).
It would have made far more sense to put the DA series of Blackmoor modules in Oerth's past instead of Mystara's past. It would have saved a lot of confusion by neatly linking the only existing mentions of Blackmoor together. It would have avoided adding technology to Mystara when there were already worlds for that - worlds like Oerth, which already had it.
So, in conclusion, I think you've got it backwards. It was okay for EGG to "borrow" Blackmoor for Greyhawk, but an unfortunate decision for TSR to set Blackmoor in Mystara.
Still, that's the way it happened, and the Gazetteer and Hollow World series incorporated Blackmoor inextricably. Thus we have two Blackmoors where we might have only had one.
So, in conclusion, I think you've got it backwards. It was okay for EGG to "borrow" Blackmoor for Greyhawk, but an unfortunate decision for TSR to set Blackmoor in Mystara.
Again, says you.
To me, Blackmoor will always ring of Mystara. Probably because I played the DA series back then, but also because - IMHO - stuff like the Egg of Coot and such don't sound "hawkish" at all (and, yes, I'm aware they are puns)
Yes, there is technology in GH. Pure technology (à la Expedition to the Barrier Peaks) and techno-magic (à la Servant of Leuk-O) but it's ok as long as it's rarer than the rarest magical artifact. Pour more of it in the setting and we'll end up with a Gamma World/D&D crossbreed which will rob GH of its cultural identity (Rifts anyone?).
Not to mention that the techno-magic raises disturbing questions about Oerth's past. Does it go (like Earthdawn/Shadowrun) through an endless cycle of Technology and Magic? Are Oerth's humans actually the long-lost colons of an alien civilization from outer space? (which wouldn't settle all that well with the way the Spelljammer universe worked, btw)
Even the way EGG describes it doesn't solve anything. The intro to the S3 module makes it clear it was meant mainly as advertising for the new Gamma World setting and the Metamorphosis Alpha game. His story (published in the Oerth Journal) about Mordenkainen & Robilar's journey to the City of the Gods describes a mix of technology, magic, fiendish stuff and even some things better linked to the Cthulhu mythos!
Figuring it out and making sense out of it quickly becomes a nightmare, so no thanks.
One question though. On what page of the module is that "mention of a crashed alien ship in Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan"? I confess I've missed it so far.
Yes, there is technology in GH. Pure technology (à la Expedition to the Barrier Peaks) and techno-magic (à la Servant of Leuk-O) but it's ok as long as it's rarer than the rarest magical artifact. Pour more of it in the setting and we'll end up with a Gamma World/D&D crossbreed which will rob GH of its cultural identity
That is Greyhawk's cultural identity. It's part of what makes it distinctive. Says me, yes. But I don't think the inclusion of Blackmoor is enough to turn it into Gamma World.
Not to mention that the techno-magic raises disturbing questions about Oerth's past.
Why are such questions disturbing for Oerth but not for Mystara? If the Blackmoor setting had been integrated into Oerth's past, those questions would have been answered - as they were for Mystara. The difference is, they answered such questions for Mystara before they had ever been asked. In Greyhawk, they had already been asked but they were never answered.
One question though. On what page of the module is that "mention of a crashed alien ship in Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan"? I confess I've missed it so far.
GV Dammerung mentions it in an article on Canonfire! http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=730
It's pretty subtle.
The Known World/Mystara is a setting almost as old as Greyhawk and which deserves attention of its own. Methink GH is rich enough as it is without having to "borrow" from other worlds (and, yes, I'm aware it was first done in Dungeon #114).
As far as I'm concerned, the next AP is set in Mystara.
That is Greyhawk's cultural identity. It's part of what makes it distinctive. Says me, yes. But I don't think the inclusion of Blackmoor is enough to turn it into Gamma World.
I never said that. I said that more technology would turn it into a crossbreed of GW/D&D.
Plus, it's beginning to sound like we have crashed alien spaceships all over the place. Barrier Peaks, Blackmoor, ...
Not to mention the dimensional outpost of the Belching Vortex and Boccob knows what else.
That's a bit much if they all come from alternate universe(s).
Why are such questions disturbing for Oerth but not for Mystara?
Because the past of Mystara has been explained at length. The starship which crashed down in Blackmoor "fits" in it.
We still know precious little about Oerth's past. Oh sure, some people have tried to "fill the gaps" and, I'll admit, sometimes in a pretty convincing way. But nothing of it is canon (yet).
GV Dammerung mentions it in an article on Canonfire! http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=730
It's pretty subtle.
I see..
Actually, it's all part of a story he built upon elements from (among other things) the old module. Intriguing and well-written but not canon per say either. Still, I would rather go with this than Blackmoor's city of the gods.
Ultimately, as I said before, that's something we'll have to agree to disagree upon.
As far as I'm concerned, the next AP is set in Mystara.
Eh, that's certainly a positive way of looking at it.
By the way, I've read your posts on the Mystara board and I welcome the opportunity to say I was impressed by how fair you were when discussing GH with other Mystaran fans.
By the way, I've read your posts on the Mystara board and I welcome the opportunity to say I was impressed by how fair you were when discussing GH with other Mystaran fans.
Thank you for the compliment. I don't ever do much more than lurk here on the GH boards, but I've always been fond of the setting. The original Gord novels by Gygax were, IMO, among the best novels published for D&D- and I still think they are pretty well written, though I've seen dissenting opinions before (and I'm probably treading on thin ice discussing books even to this extent).
I think just about all the settings have at least something going for them, and have their share of bad products as well (even Mystara!
).All of these Adventure Paths lately have definitely renewed my interest in the current goings on in Greyhawk, for certain. I've found myself lurking about somewhat more often recently.
I really don't see why its a problem that both campaign worlds have a blackmoor (in addition to the Blackmoor campaign world itself, now). It clearly belongs in both, after having 20-30 years in involvement in each one. It also seems to me that they aren't identical locales and using the Mystaran Blackmoor modules (or Arneson's latest Blackmoor stuff) for Greyhawk is a definite stretch.
As for the isle of dread, I suppose it would have been better in some abstract sense to create yet a third mysterious jungle isle rather than 'mix' campaign worlds. I guess. Sounds a bit like of a tempest in a teacup, to me. AP1 and AP3 are creating new GH facts largely from whole cloth (unlike AP2, which extensively uses existing GH materials). Could just as easily stick into the the essentially undefined jungle coast region of Mystara (other than the fact that it uses the Core Gods, who are loose copies of the GH ones).
Frankly, I think fans of both settings should be happy that they are getting material that is readily usable.
Frankly, I think fans of both settings should be happy that they are getting material that is readily usable.
You misunderstand. We are happy. No arguing there.
It's just that GH fans are notorious for arguing about the finer points for hours on end. It wouldn't be GH if we didn't do it anymore :P
By the same logic, I'd have left Isle of Dread in Mystara. It's THE defining Known World adventure, the very module that introduced that setting! It's a tale of shipwrecked adventurers braving cannibals and dinosaurs to retrieve the legendary black pearl.
Now the black pearl is back, and part of a collector's set the kopru are fashioning to serve demogorgon, and Erik said at thursday's greytalk chat that the dinosaurs "are not overly present in this AP" (direct quote). Isle of Dread with no emphasis on dinosaurs? What's the point? Since the natives of the island have been recast as olman in the boring, poorly researched and uninspired tradition of SKR's Scarlet Brotherhood, why not just use some area of the Amedio or the Olman Islands?
IMO, this is no sequel, expansion or homage to X1, which I suppose is a good thing, for while Greyhawk fans will likely see this as canon in the future, I don't see Mystara fans going ga-ga over it and reshaping the Isle of Dread as it exists there.
As for Blackmoor, the modules are clearly D&D and thus Mystara. The only point of disagreement above is that there is a similar locale, also called Blackmoor, in GH and it preceeded the Blackmoor modules that made the setting also part of the Known World.
*IF* there was a mistake in using Blackmoor in both places, it was a mistake of taking a GH locale and putting it in Mystara, not (as was originally asserted) the other way around. That said, I don't see that having it in both is inherently a mistake.
That said, I don't see that having it in both is inherently a mistake.
Me neither. Just to be clear, Erik indicated that there will be dinosaurs, just that they were more James Jacobs' thing and they aren't "overly present" in the adventure path as a whole.
James Jacobs indicated in this thread that he intends to fill the adventure path with many monsters unique to Mystara as "easter eggs" for fans of that setting, so it's really not a case of them stripping the Isle of Dread of what made it characteristically itself and replacing it all with Greyhawk stuff.
Now the black pearl is back, and part of a collector's set the kopru are fashioning to serve demogorgon, and Erik said at thursday's greytalk chat that the dinosaurs "are not overly present in this AP" (direct quote). Isle of Dread with no emphasis on dinosaurs? What's the point? Since the natives of the island have been recast as olman in the boring, poorly researched and uninspired tradition of SKR's Scarlet Brotherhood, why not just use some area of the Amedio or the Olman Islands?
Thank the gods. I can handle a dinosaur here and there, but don't turn Greyhawk into Eberron or Land of the Lost.
If they thought it warranted it, they would have done the Maure Castle treatment with X1 long ago. It's a great adventure when you are 6 years old and haven't seen King Kong but it's not exactly 'classic' Greyhawk.
It's a great adventure when you are 6 years old and haven't seen King Kong but it's not exactly 'classic' Greyhawk.
Eh, Isle of the Ape is about the same thing (except there is actually a "Kong" there) and is canon-GH.
Eh, Isle of the Ape is about the same thing (except there is actually a "Kong" there) and is canon-GH.
I have never understood peoples fascination with that module or for EX1 and EX2. I guess if its on a demi-plane, then its immune to the corniness factor
Thank the gods. I can handle a dinosaur here and there, but don't turn Greyhawk into Eberron or Land of the Lost.
If they thought it warranted it, they would have done the Maure Castle treatment with X1 long ago. It's a great adventure when you are 6 years old
No offense taken?
and haven't seen King Kong but it's not exactly 'classic' Greyhawk.
If, by preserving whatever vague notion one might have of what "classic greyhawk" is, one has to destroy the integrity of a classic module, is it really worth the time?
Remember that aside from the already mentioned Isle of the Ape, Alice in Wonderland type modules, "classic greyhawk" also includes crashed spaceships, plots by giants and drow to rule the world, dozens of uber-powerful undead lurking around, swarms of lizardmen pestering swamp towns, etc. Are dinosaurs really that out of place?
I have never understood peoples fascination with that module or for EX1 and EX2. I guess if its on a demi-plane, then its immune to the corniness factor
Given the demi-plane of IotA was created by Zagyg, a god with a weird sense of humor, I think it fits perfectly. Besides, it's a lot less silly than the EX series and gives something to do to high-level characters who want to stretch their legs without taking on the Boneheart head-on.
No offense taken?
If, by preserving whatever vague notion one might have of what "classic greyhawk" is, one has to destroy the integrity of a classic module, is it really worth the time?
Remember that aside from the already mentioned Isle of the Ape, Alice in Wonderland type modules, "classic greyhawk" also includes crashed spaceships, plots by giants and drow to rule the world, dozens of uber-powerful undead lurking around, swarms of lizardmen pestering swamp towns, etc. Are dinosaurs really that out of place?
I was 7 in 1981 when I got my hands on the X1 module inside the 'Expert' box set. I loved the Jeff Dee drawing on the cover and thought the dinosaurs were very cool. I don't mind one huge T-Rex eating everything in sight on the Isle of Dread in the middle of the Pearl Sea. But I certainly don't want the entire Amedio to turn into the wet dream of Jules Verne. It's already hard enough to justify why anyone would bother going there.
As far as getting worked up about one module being transplanted into Greyhawk, last I checked there were no 'Proper Nouns' in X1, I won't even bother mentioning B2, Castle Amber, Baltron's Beacon, etc. etc... Game developers are at their best when they cannabilize the works of others. Didn't the Tolkien estate sue TSR at one point?
As for the Isle of Dread itself, yes, there will be dinosaurs. The focus of the entire campaign is not dinosaurs, but you don't just set more than a third of a campaign on the Isle of Dread and not have dinosaurs in your adventure.
Savage Tide is, as a result, less "Greyhawk" than Age of Worms. It's more than Shackled City, though, and you can certainly expect to see appearances by a couple well-known Greyhawk NPCs and locations. But Savage Tide is as much a celebration of the Known World and the Great Wheel settings as it is Greyhawk; I think all three can get along well, and I'm really excited about what we've got lined up for this Adventure Path.
In any case, we'll certainly still be printing adventures set in Greyhawk in the magazine; we've got a particularly cool one appearing in issue #136, as a matter of fact, with another coming in issue #139.
last I checked there were no 'Proper Nouns' in X1
That statement is so entirely incorrect that it makes me wonder if you have in fact ever "checked" the adventure...
First off, the continental map included in the module is the BECMI D&D "Known World", complete with nation and city names.
Second, the adventure starts off in Specularum, the capitol city of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos.
Third, there is a full page "thumbnail gazetteer" of the Known World, with entries for the Principalities of Glantri, Ethengar Khanate, Heldann Freeholds, Vestland, Ostland, Sodjerfjord Jarls, Rockhome, Atruaghin Clans, Darokin, Alfheim, Ylaruam, the Five Shires, Karameikos, Ierendi, Minrothad, and Thyatis. Also mentioned is the Thanegioth Archipelago, the chain of islands where the Isle of Dread itself is found.
Rory Barbarosa, the NPC whose journal the PCs find, hooking them into the adventure, mentions Specularum and the Thanegioth Archipelago by name in that journal.
That enough "proper nouns" for you? X1 is not only the foundation for the Known World setting, it is heavily tied into that setting.
My rankings for campaign settings...
1. Greyhawk
..
8. Forgotten Realms
..
666. Eberron
..
Mystara?, oh yeah Mystara was Basic D&D stuff... meh.
Good show!
Mystara?, oh yeah Mystara was Basic D&D stuff.
Actually, if you want to get really technical, Mystara was "2nd edition AD&D stuff".
The known world, the setting which was revised to become Mystara, existed in Basic/Expert D&D.
I know this will be deleted when the new boards go online but I would rather not have the thread locked till then.
:surrender
Aha, the old "I was proven wrong when I made an assinine comment so now I'll begin ranting pointlessly" routine.
Good show!
Actually it was "Yeah I really guess my memory of a module I saw when I was 6 isn't that great...sue me."
As far as Mystara - Known World goes, we have 99% of the people on that board raving about Paizo doing ANYTHING for that CS and one lunatic on the Greyhawk board raving about the fact that Isle of Dread (a product which is only "great" from a nostalgic point of view) being subverted.
Just for that... I hope they get Rob Kuntz to write one of the Isle of Dread adventures. Ha! :D
Blackmoor, in its fullest flower, is shared almost equally between GH and Mystara/Known World, with the exception that published adventures from TSR were clearly set in the Mystara/Known World. The backstory, however, crosses settings and it may be posited that there is an (in game, natch) interdimensional/planar nexus between Mystara/Known World and Greyhawk to account for this.
Goodman Games Blackmoor adds more grist to the mill.
This situation gets more complicated when the Castle Amber/Glantri material for Mystara/Known World is considered, which intersects CAS' Averoigne (sp) which intersects Earth which intersects Oerth, coming full circle.
In this line, there are, in fact, more than three dozen such connections or nexus points I have charted that link Oerth with various other settings or literary creations, ne dimensions. Oerth/Greyhawk is demonstrably a dimensional/planar nexus and it is for this reason that so many extraplanar entities (Grazzt, Demogogon, Asmodeus etc.) want to control Oerth. Oerth is extradimensional/planar "high ground" of immense strategic importance. Control Oerth and you control a dimensional/planar crossroads nexus greater than almost any other. Effect Oerth and you may effect numerous other dimensions/planes more readily.
Eventually, I hope to make a topical submission to Canonfire that will map all of the interconnections I have identified. I keep finding more.
I know this will be a Paizo product, but who cares? All praise Erik Mona and his tireless vision!!
Greyhawkers unite and take over!!!
UGGH! Dragotha as Kyuss' buttmonkey? Yeah. All praise the Adventure Path's "genius."
Get the GH right: It is not that the Adventure Paths do GH right. It is that they touch GH at all. The praise is for the effort, not the specific result as it relates to GH. The latter may be found wanting in both AP I and II. Part of this is likely the result of Wotc's foolishness vis a vis GH but that does not explain the inestimable "vision" that slaves Dragotha to Kyuss etc.
This is what happens when a setting goes begging for support for too long. Anything reasonably competent becomes overblown to much of a starved audience. If I'm thirsty enough, I'll drink Dr. Pepper too, but given a choice, I never touch the stuff.
I regard the APs as "canon" much like the work of the LG Triads. It is, pardon the pun, in a "grey" area.
When, not if, GH is evetually revised, for copyright reasons is nothing else, whomever gets the task will have one heck of a mess to sort out, or ignore, generating more "canon conflicts," in such case. But at least such should give us plenty to cuss and discuss online and in our individual circles. So from that standpoint, I'll muster a "Go Mona." Now where he should go specifically . . . ;-D
Note - That last is joke. Maybe. ;) Afterall, Erik's dad just helped got us a new ballpark after a decade trying. Who knows how far the nut falls from the tree?
1. These adventures have to appeal to a wide audience, if you can draw in a contingent of Mystarans along with some Realmers and some Ebbies then I say go for it.
2. This is a fantasy setting. There could be any number of explanations for why the Isle of Dread, heretofore native to the Known World, has suddenly fallen into Oerth's seas. You play Ebberon? Cange a place name or two to suit your purposes and voila. Want to call it the Isle of the Ape? Sure, it may take some fixin but you could do it.
3. You're only limited by your own imagination, not the imagination of the guy who wrote it. Write, submit and get published your own adventures and listen to people howl about how "It doesn't fit!"
--Erik
Now if the Vikes will lose the roof, we'll be set.
And Twins.
Now if the Vikes will lose the roof, we'll be set.
Twins...puke. Shattered my dreams in '87. Bad enough we lost to KC in '85 but the Twins?!? Now to top all that off we lose to Boston two years ago...what's next? The Cubs actually manage to win one? A sign of the apocalypse I tell ya.
Albert es el Hombre! Go Cardinals!
UGGH! Dragotha as Kyuss' buttmonkey? Yeah. All praise the Adventure Path's "genius."
Hmmmm... I think you mean Dragotha was Tiamat's buttmonkey and then he was dead.
I think I would much rather be "undead" than just dead.
And really how much is riding on this bit of canon? A vague comment on S2's map and a poorly written tournament module by Cordell... I think I will take the badshiznit Dragotha write-up in Dungeon by Mr. Jacobs any day of the week.
Go Cubs! ;)
Go Cubs! ;)
Repent Lassiviren! The End is nigh! :D
At least WotC is kind enough to let Dave Arneson to use the Blackmoor label. If you haven't pick up the product, you should.
Repent Lassiviren! The End is nigh! :D
As far as the Cubs season goes I think we are well past midnight.
As far as the Cubs season goes I think we are well past midnight.
When was their last Series win? 1908? Two more years to reverse the curse before it hits the century mark.
If Greyhawk fans had to wait that long for an update...
While there would no doubt be a coolness factor to a new GH hardback, my greatest hope for such would be to see new areas of Oerth opened up for play. To the degree that is dubious in any new hardback and to the extent that Dungeon 141 will feature a poster map of the Pearl Sea and south, I'm not sure how much I need a new GH hardback.
YMMV
Not too much detail. Just enough in each area to get the juices flowing and provide a backdrop for years of infill.Greyhawk is out of print.
Living Greyhawk Gazeteer is no longer listed on Amazon.com
Greyhawk is out of print.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786917431/sr=8-1/qid=1149299877/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-6409246-5443923?%5Fencoding=UTF8
While there would no doubt be a coolness factor to a new GH hardback, my greatest hope for such would be to see new areas of Oerth opened up for play.
Issue 136 of Dungeon had an adventure that took place in the far west. I think it's the start of a mini-series of such adventures, each laying out a plot, but also giving the region some depth.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786917431/sr=8-1/qid=1149299877/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-6409246-5443923?%5Fencoding=UTF8
Snark away, but it's no longer listed as a NEW product available from Amazon, only from game shops that still have it in stock. For now.
Greyhawk is out of print.
Mystara is well and truly dead, so rather than let a great locale like the Isle of Dread go fallow, I decided to incorporate it into the "core" D&D setting. If both Oerth and Mystara can have a Blackmoor, they can both have Isles of Dread, too.
--Erik
whilst it is well and truly unsupported, it's less true to say that it's dead.
Albert es el Hombre! Go Cardinals!
Tough break about Albert, I was hoping he would be the first player to break 61 HRs sans steroids.
whilst it is well and truly unsupported, it's less true to say that it's dead.
True enough. I apologize for the inartful comment. What I meant, of course, is that it is not likely to be published again in the near future as an official D&D product.
--Erik
True enough. I apologize for the inartful comment. What I meant, of course, is that it is not likely to be published again in the near future as an official D&D product.
Since we established that, how soon will WotC find an able and willing game publisher to take over the GH line as a d20 fantasy product?
Well, the comment was made about the Mystara line... So it doesn't say anything about GH. Though there doesn't seem to be much chance of GH (as opposed to genericized 'core' stuff that is superficially similar) getting published either.
Except ::cough!:: in the form of Dungeon Adventure Paths. ::cough! cough!:: :D
Just don't mention Mur... ;)
True enough. I apologize for the inartful comment. What I meant, of course, is that it is not likely to be published again in the near future as an official D&D product.
--Erik
cheers Erik, I just like to try and keep everyone batting on the same side