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Divine Mind DS Adaptation

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Apr 26, 2006 16:28:02 I know that I may be hung as a heritic for this but what the hell.

I was thinking about adapting the diivne mind class from the compleat psionic. Now I'm not talking about introducing Gods to Athas that would be silly. What I have been mulling over more then any thing has been what Mantles should the difrent SK's/Eleaments have?

Alright got back to my book and had some time to think things over heres what I got. I based the mantles below, on the Dragon #319 artical

Andropinus:
Conflict
Evil
Law
The Planes

Dregoth:
Chaos
Death
Evil
Knowledge

Hamanu:
Evil
Law
Guardian (or I was also thinking Justice)
Physical Power

Lalali-Puy:
Evil
Law
Life
Natural World

Nibenay:
Chaos
Conflict
Evil
Magic
#2
mystictheurge
Apr 26, 2006 17:02:08 I think it's fairly easy to explain mantles as "devotion to a particular concept or ideal." And as such Divine Minds wouldn't necessarily be excluded from DS. I might limit them to certain mantles, as some will no doubt seem out of place, but I think you could include them if you wanted to.

Definitely give them a new name.
#3
Pennarin
Apr 26, 2006 17:18:56 Linking psionics to the elements or to beliefs is IMO a bad move for DS.

Yes elements are very thematic in DS, still there's no need to link it to psionics.

Belief...well, Taradan psionics is one belief system, and it surpassed a previous system...
Dunno what that means in DS, I just don't think these psionic philosophies should be represented by mantles.
The fans' I've seen seem to want to associate the very classes to the philosophies, i.e. psion to Tarandan psionics, and Wilders/Psychic Warriors to the previous philosophy.

Thoughts?
#4
ruhl-than_sage
Apr 26, 2006 18:03:11
The fans' I've seen seem to want to associate the very classes to the philosophies, i.e. psion to Tarandan psionics, and Wilders/Psychic Warriors to the previous philosophy.

Thoughts?

That makes a lot of sense. Tarandas basically codified psionics and shaped the disciplines and foundational theories of it. It could have been that psionics was merely employed as a martial discpline and by innately talented individuals, before she learned how to unlock the potentenial inside everyone so to speak (or at least everyone of above average intelligence).
#5
zombiegleemax
Apr 26, 2006 20:07:05
Linking psionics to the elements or to beliefs is IMO a bad move for DS.

Yes elements are very thematic in DS, still there's no need to link it to psionics.

My idea is not to say that the power comes from the elements themselves. These are people that belive in some thing to an extream degree, and because they have a latent psionic potential are able to manifest it in a difrent manor.

Ohh and yeah I would totaly change the name not too shure what though... maybe , Dark Mind? naw sounds way lame
#6
terminus_vortexa
Apr 26, 2006 20:25:00 No need to link the Divine Mind to the elements, or really to change much about it at all, in order to integrate it perfectly into DS. It's still Psionics, just a different take on how it's used. Divine Minds could have well been the "priests" of the "gods" in the Green Age. Thus the "divine" part. They function in a fashion very similar to Clerics in a lot of ways. It doesn't matter that their "gods" don't really exist, because their power comes from their own mind anyway. It could just be that they lose their power when they violate their ethos or break their faith because of some kind of psychologocial trauma or some other such psychobabble. The mental structures they set up in their minds to assume mantles and manifest powers could have their faith as a key structural component in the mental process of power manifestation. They lose that, they lose their abilities. So, all in all, I think the DIvine Mind requires no modification to be used in a DS campaign, of any age. If one chooses to use Divine Minds in a Brown Age campaign, there is really nothing prohibiting it. It could add some interesting plots and twists to any game if you introduce a bunch of "priests" weilding powers and generating auras and such, all in the name of some "deity" who only the very well informed would know for certain could not exist. I'm considering setting up a sort of New Religeon in my campaign where a bunch of Binders and Divine Minds show up, with the binders being bound to certain Vestiges which the Divine Minds believe are gods. It is said the Vestiges reside in a place where even the gods can't touch them, and the Grey certainly fits the bill.
#7
dirk00001
Apr 26, 2006 23:26:50
No need to link the Divine Mind to the elements, or really to change much about it at all, in order to integrate it perfectly into DS. It's still Psionics, just a different take on how it's used. Divine Minds could have well been the "priests" of the "gods" in the Green Age.

That was my take on it in the "Complete Psionics" thread - Divine Minds were what made the gods "real" during the Green Age, and as people lost faith during the Cleansing Wars when no gods came to their rescue, the "class" died out.

In the same post I mentioned that I thought Borys could, based on what we know of him from the PP as well as other background material, have been an Ardent. Sometime soon-ish I'm actually going to write him up as such, seeing as the PCs in my game are about to try and "stand up" to him (...it's going to turn out badly, but it'll at least be entertaining)...from what I've done so far it looks like it'll work quite well.

So as far as I'm concerned, the Divine Mind could definitely fit into the Athasian landscape, as long as it's treated appropriately. It makes sense to me that, no matter what the setting, powers of the mind would, by definition, be shaped by one's beliefs.
#8
ruhl-than_sage
Apr 26, 2006 23:35:14 This idea could tie into the idea of Pre-Tarandan psionics. Also, the extreme rarity of Divine Minds could be linked to the activities of the Order and the need for a structured training regimine to develop the mental focus and faith to manifest mantles. Only those enclaves that could successfully avoid or stand up to the Order in some fashion, would be able to survive. The SKs would probably destroy any cult that got too large as they would be seen as a threat to their religious/social power as well.
#9
xanthus
Apr 27, 2006 11:17:23 @Dirk00001:

As I do like the Ardent a good amount (I can see it as having potential, it's not religious per say... more monk like in my mind), I do like the idea of using Borys as an ardent. That's a pretty cool idea. Let us know how it works out and what stats you end up coming up with for the Dragon of Tyr. I know I'd love to see it (and possibly yoink it for my DS game that I'm working up!)

@no one in particular:

I see mention of the phrase Tarandan Psionics. I've never seen that term before. What is this in regards to? Is this some Green Age fellow who codified and organized the Way of the Unseen?

Another possibility for the Divine Mind (and Ardents as well) is that they simply don't exist in the Tablelands as they use the most civilized (in their minds anyways) form of psionics. A little variation and you turn these psychic paladins and clerics into some kind of fringe types (some kind of primitive psychic shamans and spirit warriors?) who live outside of the Tablelands to be found by explorers or adventurers out looking for greener pastures. See Brian's thread for said greener pastures.

-X
#10
kalthandrix
Apr 27, 2006 12:06:55
@
I see mention of the phrase Tarandan Psionics. I've never seen that term before. What is this in regards to? Is this some Green Age fellow who codified and organized the Way of the Unseen?

I believe that it is mentioned in the Will and the Way and perhaps in the Wanderers Chronical too. But if I am wrong it is okay- this would be the first time...ever. :D
#11
Sysane
Apr 27, 2006 12:42:37 Here's two pretty far-out ideas for the divine mind in DS so bear with me.

What if divine minds were a group of warriors who swore fealty to Rajaat during the Green Age and took up the cause of eliminating all the nonhuman Rebirth races? For their unwavering loyalty and devotion the Warbringer was able to grant these individuals greater abilities via the Way. Rajaat is after all the closest thing to a deity during the Green Age. Myron and Irkos could have been divine mind's themselves being the Left and Right Hands of Rajaat.

Another option is that they're psionic warriors who have taken an oath to protect Athas from further destruction and now serve a Spirit of the Land that grants them heightened psionic abilities due to their devotion to nature.
#12
eric_anondson
Apr 27, 2006 12:43:08 From The Will and the Way

Tarandas of Raam

Psionics have been a part of Athasian society for thousands of years. It is almost certain that use of mental power predates the founding of most of the city-states of the Tyr region. The modern culture's understanding of psionics dates back almost 900 years to a woman known as Tarandas, the Gray Lady.

Tarandas was a member of the Raam's nobility who displayed potent psionic talents at a very early age. At that time, no formal psionic schools existed. All psionic learning was passed on by the efforts of individual masters who often banded into orders to pursue their own goals. As a young woman, Tarandas quickly rose past the teachings of the masters her family hired and began to develop her own methods of accessing psionic power.

Over the course of her lifetime, Tarandas codified the six disciplines and created the basic structure of learning that is still used by instructors throught the Tyr region. She rejected the various orders that monolplized psionic power, and she opened an academy where people could study the Way without the mystery and deceit that had been fostered by the orders, who sought to preserve their own power.

It is said that Tarandas ventured beyond mastery of the Way into realms unseen by lesser beings. She vanished 800 years ago, her fate is unknown.

#13
xanthus
Apr 27, 2006 16:19:44 @Eric: Dude, you rock. Thanks for the cool background story info. Very good info to know!

@Sysane: I like your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Both are pretty good angles as to how to integrate Divine Minds and Ardents into the setting and make them not ponderous. Just basically say they've been there all along and this how and where. Ardents with a "Genocide" Mantle maybe?

I also dig the idea of having them basically being psychic druids and rangers effectly, finding empowerment through their devotion to the spirits of the land. Kudos!

-X
#14
eric_anondson
Apr 27, 2006 18:35:51 It is pretty cool background/historical flavor that really adds to Dark Sun. Re-reading this background, and now owning the Complete Psionic I think I'm leaning towards having the pre-Tarandan Tyr-region psionic orders teaching towards the Erudite class. Wilder and Psionic Warrior were still around, but the Erudite was that favored by the scholarly psionic orders of that era.

When Tarandas codified the new understanding and opened up her alternate schooling academies to the general public, it was then when the Psion class began to displace the Erudite in popularity to the point today where the Erudite is almost unknown in the Tablelands except where tought by the rare hermit who has had the Erudite way passed down from generations of apprentice/master relationships.

Oookay... maybe I just hijacked the thread...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Apr 26, 2006 16:28:02	I know that I may be hung as a heritic for this but what the hell. I was thinking about adapting the diivne mind class from the compleat psionic. Now I'm not talking about introducing Gods to Athas that would be silly. What I have been mulling over more then any thing has been what Mantles should the difrent SK's/Eleaments have? Alright got back to my book and had some time to think things over heres what I got. I based the mantles below, on the Dragon #319 artical Andropinus: Conflict Evil Law The Planes Dregoth: Chaos Death Evil Knowledge Hamanu: Evil Law Guardian (or I was also thinking Justice) Physical Power Lalali-Puy: Evil Law Life Natural World Nibenay: Chaos Conflict Evil Magic
#2 mystictheurge Apr 26, 2006 17:02:08	I think it's fairly easy to explain mantles as "devotion to a particular concept or ideal." And as such Divine Minds wouldn't necessarily be excluded from DS. I might limit them to certain mantles, as some will no doubt seem out of place, but I think you could include them if you wanted to. Definitely give them a new name.
#3 Pennarin Apr 26, 2006 17:18:56	Linking psionics to the elements or to beliefs is IMO a bad move for DS. Yes elements are very thematic in DS, still there's no need to link it to psionics. Belief...well, Taradan psionics is one belief system, and it surpassed a previous system... Dunno what that means in DS, I just don't think these psionic philosophies should be represented by mantles. The fans' I've seen seem to want to associate the very classes to the philosophies, i.e. psion to Tarandan psionics, and Wilders/Psychic Warriors to the previous philosophy. Thoughts?
#4 ruhl-than_sage Apr 26, 2006 18:03:11	The fans' I've seen seem to want to associate the very classes to the philosophies, i.e. psion to Tarandan psionics, and Wilders/Psychic Warriors to the previous philosophy. Thoughts? That makes a lot of sense. Tarandas basically codified psionics and shaped the disciplines and foundational theories of it. It could have been that psionics was merely employed as a martial discpline and by innately talented individuals, before she learned how to unlock the potentenial inside everyone so to speak (or at least everyone of above average intelligence).
#5 zombiegleemax Apr 26, 2006 20:07:05	Linking psionics to the elements or to beliefs is IMO a bad move for DS. Yes elements are very thematic in DS, still there's no need to link it to psionics. My idea is not to say that the power comes from the elements themselves. These are people that belive in some thing to an extream degree, and because they have a latent psionic potential are able to manifest it in a difrent manor. Ohh and yeah I would totaly change the name not too shure what though... maybe , Dark Mind? naw sounds way lame
#6 terminus_vortexa Apr 26, 2006 20:25:00	No need to link the Divine Mind to the elements, or really to change much about it at all, in order to integrate it perfectly into DS. It's still Psionics, just a different take on how it's used. Divine Minds could have well been the "priests" of the "gods" in the Green Age. Thus the "divine" part. They function in a fashion very similar to Clerics in a lot of ways. It doesn't matter that their "gods" don't really exist, because their power comes from their own mind anyway. It could just be that they lose their power when they violate their ethos or break their faith because of some kind of psychologocial trauma or some other such psychobabble. The mental structures they set up in their minds to assume mantles and manifest powers could have their faith as a key structural component in the mental process of power manifestation. They lose that, they lose their abilities. So, all in all, I think the DIvine Mind requires no modification to be used in a DS campaign, of any age. If one chooses to use Divine Minds in a Brown Age campaign, there is really nothing prohibiting it. It could add some interesting plots and twists to any game if you introduce a bunch of "priests" weilding powers and generating auras and such, all in the name of some "deity" who only the very well informed would know for certain could not exist. I'm considering setting up a sort of New Religeon in my campaign where a bunch of Binders and Divine Minds show up, with the binders being bound to certain Vestiges which the Divine Minds believe are gods. It is said the Vestiges reside in a place where even the gods can't touch them, and the Grey certainly fits the bill.
#7 dirk00001 Apr 26, 2006 23:26:50	No need to link the Divine Mind to the elements, or really to change much about it at all, in order to integrate it perfectly into DS. It's still Psionics, just a different take on how it's used. Divine Minds could have well been the "priests" of the "gods" in the Green Age. That was my take on it in the "Complete Psionics" thread - Divine Minds were what made the gods "real" during the Green Age, and as people lost faith during the Cleansing Wars when no gods came to their rescue, the "class" died out. In the same post I mentioned that I thought Borys could, based on what we know of him from the PP as well as other background material, have been an Ardent. Sometime soon-ish I'm actually going to write him up as such, seeing as the PCs in my game are about to try and "stand up" to him (...it's going to turn out badly, but it'll at least be entertaining)...from what I've done so far it looks like it'll work quite well. So as far as I'm concerned, the Divine Mind could definitely fit into the Athasian landscape, as long as it's treated appropriately. It makes sense to me that, no matter what the setting, powers of the mind would, by definition, be shaped by one's beliefs.
#8 ruhl-than_sage Apr 26, 2006 23:35:14	This idea could tie into the idea of Pre-Tarandan psionics. Also, the extreme rarity of Divine Minds could be linked to the activities of the Order and the need for a structured training regimine to develop the mental focus and faith to manifest mantles. Only those enclaves that could successfully avoid or stand up to the Order in some fashion, would be able to survive. The SKs would probably destroy any cult that got too large as they would be seen as a threat to their religious/social power as well.
#9 xanthus Apr 27, 2006 11:17:23	@Dirk00001: As I do like the Ardent a good amount (I can see it as having potential, it's not religious per say... more monk like in my mind), I do like the idea of using Borys as an ardent. That's a pretty cool idea. Let us know how it works out and what stats you end up coming up with for the Dragon of Tyr. I know I'd love to see it (and possibly yoink it for my DS game that I'm working up!) @no one in particular: I see mention of the phrase Tarandan Psionics. I've never seen that term before. What is this in regards to? Is this some Green Age fellow who codified and organized the Way of the Unseen? Another possibility for the Divine Mind (and Ardents as well) is that they simply don't exist in the Tablelands as they use the most civilized (in their minds anyways) form of psionics. A little variation and you turn these psychic paladins and clerics into some kind of fringe types (some kind of primitive psychic shamans and spirit warriors?) who live outside of the Tablelands to be found by explorers or adventurers out looking for greener pastures. See Brian's thread for said greener pastures. -X
#10 kalthandrix Apr 27, 2006 12:06:55	@ I see mention of the phrase Tarandan Psionics. I've never seen that term before. What is this in regards to? Is this some Green Age fellow who codified and organized the Way of the Unseen? I believe that it is mentioned in the Will and the Way and perhaps in the Wanderers Chronical too. But if I am wrong it is okay- this would be the first time...ever. :D
#11 Sysane Apr 27, 2006 12:42:37	Here's two pretty far-out ideas for the divine mind in DS so bear with me. What if divine minds were a group of warriors who swore fealty to Rajaat during the Green Age and took up the cause of eliminating all the nonhuman Rebirth races? For their unwavering loyalty and devotion the Warbringer was able to grant these individuals greater abilities via the Way. Rajaat is after all the closest thing to a deity during the Green Age. Myron and Irkos could have been divine mind's themselves being the Left and Right Hands of Rajaat. Another option is that they're psionic warriors who have taken an oath to protect Athas from further destruction and now serve a Spirit of the Land that grants them heightened psionic abilities due to their devotion to nature.
#12 eric_anondson Apr 27, 2006 12:43:08	From The Will and the Way Tarandas of Raam Psionics have been a part of Athasian society for thousands of years. It is almost certain that use of mental power predates the founding of most of the city-states of the Tyr region. The modern culture's understanding of psionics dates back almost 900 years to a woman known as Tarandas, the Gray Lady. Tarandas was a member of the Raam's nobility who displayed potent psionic talents at a very early age. At that time, no formal psionic schools existed. All psionic learning was passed on by the efforts of individual masters who often banded into orders to pursue their own goals. As a young woman, Tarandas quickly rose past the teachings of the masters her family hired and began to develop her own methods of accessing psionic power. Over the course of her lifetime, Tarandas codified the six disciplines and created the basic structure of learning that is still used by instructors throught the Tyr region. She rejected the various orders that monolplized psionic power, and she opened an academy where people could study the Way without the mystery and deceit that had been fostered by the orders, who sought to preserve their own power. It is said that Tarandas ventured beyond mastery of the Way into realms unseen by lesser beings. She vanished 800 years ago, her fate is unknown.
#13 xanthus Apr 27, 2006 16:19:44	@Eric: Dude, you rock. Thanks for the cool background story info. Very good info to know! @Sysane: I like your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Both are pretty good angles as to how to integrate Divine Minds and Ardents into the setting and make them not ponderous. Just basically say they've been there all along and this how and where. Ardents with a "Genocide" Mantle maybe? I also dig the idea of having them basically being psychic druids and rangers effectly, finding empowerment through their devotion to the spirits of the land. Kudos! -X
#14 eric_anondson Apr 27, 2006 18:35:51	It is pretty cool background/historical flavor that really adds to Dark Sun. Re-reading this background, and now owning the Complete Psionic I think I'm leaning towards having the pre-Tarandan Tyr-region psionic orders teaching towards the Erudite class. Wilder and Psionic Warrior were still around, but the Erudite was that favored by the scholarly psionic orders of that era. When Tarandas codified the new understanding and opened up her alternate schooling academies to the general public, it was then when the Psion class began to displace the Erudite in popularity to the point today where the Erudite is almost unknown in the Tablelands except where tought by the rare hermit who has had the Erudite way passed down from generations of apprentice/master relationships. Oookay... maybe I just hijacked the thread...