I always got the feeling that Dark Sun definitely leaned towards the Psionics is Different method of play, but it definitely does make for some complications and a lot of extra DM work. So I'm curious what other people do.
I always use "Psionics are Different", because psionics are different, :D
Agreed :D
Druids,Clerics, Wizards, Psions,Sorceror > everything else.
I use the Psionincs=magic rule. Otherwise Psionics are overbalanced IMHO. Most monsters CR for example include magic resistence. If a Psion can automatically punch through that no role required hmmn.
The easiest way of resolving that is just give all monsters with SR an equal level of PR as well. I've done this a few times myself when it was needed.
This works especially well in Dark Sun games where I think this sort of thing is fitting.
The easiest way of resolving that is just give all monsters with SR an equal level of PR as well. I've done this a few times myself when it was needed.
This works especially well in Dark Sun games where I think this sort of thing is fitting.
That was my main objection to it. I treat SR and PR as the same thing. Theres a few other abilities that make no sense under the Psionics is different rule. Antimagic for example blocks out all magic and supernatural effects but not Psionics under that rule. If a party has both magic and Psioncs it gets hard for NPCs to compete. Today for example the PCs faced a Defiler The Psion had a 2nd level power called Dampen Power or something like this which is an immediate action that minimises all random spells and effects for 3 pp or for 7 it protects everyone. The NPC had traveled with the PCs and had a good idea of their weaknesses. A 58 point empowered firebal was reduced to 15 damage save for half. As the DM I must have prepared here spells wrong because all of her offensive spells were numerical based even though she had a range of energy spells,force spells, and enervate spells. PCs had Cleric, Templar and Psion with uber fort saves and will saves. Defiler had her butt kicked but it would have been alot worse using the Psionics is different rule. Minor Globe of Resistence and similar spells can ward out Psionics but offer no defense using this rule.
Spellcasters suffer more than Psions using this rule as Psions have limited Abjuration effects. Most PHB spells offer no defenses vs this rule. PHB races and DS racial saves eg Elves and Dwarves, Halflings lose this benefit while few if any Psionic beings have racial save bonuses to Psionics. Deathward now offers no protection vs Mindwipe where Psions have no psionic equivilent of Deathward (at level 4 power anyway) so don't lose anything. Few creatures have PR, lots of creatures have SR. Psionics is borderline overpowered (just like magic) and this rule puts them over the top IMHO.
Someone on these boards had rules for Arcane Magic > Psionics. Essentially arcane magic trumps psionics in every situation where they might interact, while psionics fails against arcane magic (i.e. dispel magic affects psionic powers, while dispel psionics does diddly against arcane spells). The intent was to express that arcane magic is truly the ultimate supernatural power on Athas.
Yah, that was me. It's worked really well so far. Not only does it capture the idea that, "arcane magic is truly the ultimate supernatural power on Athas", as you so eloquently put, but it also mechanically balances out the role-playing based disadvantage that arcane casters have on Athas due to the stigma of that form of magic. Looking at the mechanics of magic and psionics, It didn't make much sense to me that anyone would bother to pursue magic if it was so dangerous and destructive, when they could easily just learn psionics instead, unless magic had a real edge.
Yah, that was me. It's worked really well so far. Not only does it capture the idea that, "arcane magic is truly the ultimate supernatural power on Athas", as you so eloquently put, but it also mechanically balances out the role-playing based disadvantage that arcane casters have on Athas due to the stigma of that form of magic. Looking at the mechanics of magic and psionics, It didn't make much sense to me that anyone would bother to pursue magic if it was so dangerous and destructive, when they could easily just learn psionics instead, unless magic had a real edge.
Were there more detailed specifics to this idea, because it seems appealing to me.
If so, do you have a link to them?
Yah, that was me. It's worked really well so far. Not only does it capture the idea that, "arcane magic is truly the ultimate supernatural power on Athas", as you so eloquently put, but it also mechanically balances out the role-playing based disadvantage that arcane casters have on Athas due to the stigma of that form of magic. Looking at the mechanics of magic and psionics, It didn't make much sense to me that anyone would bother to pursue magic if it was so dangerous and destructive, when they could easily just learn psionics instead, unless magic had a real edge.
This appeals to me as well, Ruhl-Than Sage. Is there more workings to this?
I just use the official Athas.org stance, except that there is a one way transparency for Arcane Magic to effect/not be effected by psionics. This extends to anything that can be considered to be derived from an arcane source as well: such as magic items and the magic resistance/spell like-abilities of summoned or created creatures. This means that a +1 sword created by a defiler or preserver can sometimes be a greater asset then a +2 sword created by a psion.
I do allow Detect Psionics to detect magic (of all sorts) but only in a very hazy and indistinct way, no reall information can be gleaned beyond: there is a little magic in the air, or there is a lot of magic about.
"arcane magic is truly the ultimate supernatural power on Athas",.
In 2E rules, that was a straightforward fact.Magic was WAY more powerful than psionics. The only 2E advantage of psionics was spontaneous manifestation vs. spell preparation, and the Psionic High Sciences were even kind of weak. I can understand why people would feel the need to enhance magic's effectiveness against Psionics in 3.5 to have that bit of flavor stay true. But for me, personally, even though as far as plot goes, I try to stick to canon as much as possible, I run my game in the Psionics are Different way, because the new psionics system is just so powerful and I allow every new psionic class, PRC and power in my game, and easily holds its own against magic , I explain the advantage of magic to be in the ability to create more complex effects than psionics and do things like create undead, polymorph foes and , let's not forget, cause things like the Dragon Transformation when used in conjunction with powerful psionics.
Keeping with the magic should trump psionics theme, I allow magic a one-to-one penetration of PR but psionics gets a -4 or -20% to any rolls versus SR or similar situations.
Psionics balances this restriction by being more acceptable with the gen pop.
So a Detect Magic spell would also detect psionics but a Detect Psionics power would be less able to dicern psionic properties.
On to the reason.
I understand and agree that there should be some pay off for pursuing the arcane over the use of psionics. The "one-way" transparency handles this nicely.
But the logical side of me wants to argue, "wouldn't psionics be more developed and therefore at least equal, given that there is no stigma?"
*volleys*
I wonder, how do you handle the difference in arcane and divine magic? Do you use a "divine magic is different than arcane" variant as well?
Just wondering...
I'm also leaning toward the psionics is different, but I like Ruhl-Than's idea of magic trumping psionics.
Tiarn - The only real difference between arcane and divine magic is the source. Aside from that, it's still basically the same thing: Magic. ...
I fail to see it that way.
What is the reason that "I use my intricate knowledge of the world and it's forces to alter that world around me" can be used to alter/nullify "I ask for nature to heed me and through my faith, it does"?
On the other hand, why is "I use my intricate knowledge of the world and it's forces to alter that world around me" any different than "Through my knowledge of self and enlightenment I can alter the world around me"?
It sounds like the only difference between psionics and magic is the source. It's still basically the same thing: I alter reality.
I was just wondering if people had given any thought to that. Of course by the game statistics psionics and magic are different, but what aside from that makes people treat them as such?
I was just wondering if people had given any thought to that. Of course by the game statistics psionics and magic are different, but what aside from that makes people treat them as such?
I see it as psionics come from within, while magic comes from without. To me, that is a very significant difference.
What is the reason that "I use my intricate knowledge of the world and it's forces to alter that world around me" can be used to alter/nullify "I ask for nature to heed me and through my faith, it does"?
Both forms of magic are a person calling on an outside force to affect the world around them therefore they interact directly.
On the other hand, why is "I use my intricate knowledge of the world and it's forces to alter that world around me" any different than "Through my knowledge of self and enlightenment I can alter the world around me"?
It sounds like the only difference between psionics and magic is the source. It's still basically the same thing: I alter reality.
No. With Psionics "I" alter reality is correct, but with magic "magic" alters reality. That's the big difference. With Arcane and Divine magic the source of the power is external. With Psionics the source is self.
No. With Psionics "I" alter reality is correct, but with magic "magic" alters reality. That's the big difference. With Arcane and Divine magic the source of the power is external. With Psionics the source is self.
So do you see it along the lines of:
Psionics: I can move a 50 pound rock
Magic: I use that tree trunk as a lever to move a 500 pound rock
Jack
So do you see it along the lines of:
Psionics: I can move a 50 pound rock
Magic: I use that tree trunk as a lever to move a 500 pound rock
Jack
No, I see it along the lines of
Psionics: I can move that rock with my mind.
Magic: The magic can move that rock using me as a conduit.
What kind of magic-psionics transparency do people play with in DS3?
I always got the feeling that Dark Sun definitely leaned towards the Psionics is Different method of play, but it definitely does make for some complications and a lot of extra DM work. So I'm curious what other people do.
Dark Sun was intended as a 2nd Eddition Psionics or "True Psionics" Campaign setting not the Watered down Mentalist Specialist Wzard version of Psionics now known as 3rd Edition Psionics.
Lot of people that *****ed and moaned about the Psionic combat that took place at the beginning of each round likely never used the flip card method of keeping track of things (This is years before Magic the Gathering and other flip card games came popular mind you) mentioned in the 2nd eddition Psionics Handbook (everyone using Psionics throw their cards down face down at the beginning of the round and flip it up declaring their target on their turn using all the data on the card to determine the outcome at almost a glance)
Of caourse, in all honesty. I never played pen and Paper though I have played Dark Sun Crimson Sands and Wake of the Ravager on the Computer and I own the 2nd Eddition Psionics Handbook cause while I don' playPen and paper D&D I still like collecting D&D materials...better then reading newspapers on the Poddy...lol
See, but on the other hand, Mentalist Specialist Wizards always existed where True Psionics did not...like in the Native Torilians which is why Psionics was lost for a Time when Mystra died during the Time of Troubles....and even now the "Cannon" states that Native Torillians are 3rd Eddition Psionics (magical, 3rd eddition Psionic) and can never be "True Psionist" (2nd eddition Psionist) that Monsters like the Mind Flayers are.
Likewise 3rd Eddition Psionics feed on the Magic that flows from the Lifeforce of the Psionist...basically magic and lifeforce is intgerchangable which is the premise of Preserverism and Defilerism and even the "spirit and soul reaping" that immortals like demons do to power their spells prove.....so it isn't to far fetched to declare Dark Sun a 3rd Eddition Psionics World with Psionics being just another way that people use lifeforce...mostly their own...to "make things happen". (I personally wouldn't say that though)
...Watered down Mentalist Specialist Wzard version of Psionics now known as 3rd Edition Psionics...
Considering there's a vastly different 3.5 version of psionics I find it odd that you're complaining about 3rd edition. If you'll take a look on the psionic forum, you'll find that most people found 3rd ed. psionics... lacking.
No, I see it along the lines of
Psionics: I can move that rock with my mind.
Magic: The magic can move that rock using me as a conduit.
Okay, here I begin to see your point. Not saying that I agree, merely that I understand what you're saying. If that is the case, though, and magic is magic where psionics is psionics, in your games do you allow a wizard to cast a hold person scroll if it's divine?
Considering there's a vastly different 3.5 version of psionics I find it odd that you're complaining about 3rd edition. If you'll take a look on the psionic forum, you'll find that most people found 3rd ed. psionics... lacking.
But even 3.5 Psionics, I was being all inclusive, is basically another form of magic pulled from a different source box of tricks.
Don't get me wrong, Being a Mentalist Sorcerer that can cast spell efects on body, mind, and spirit or manipulate reality usinng your own spirit/soul as the source of power is fine...but labeling it "Psionics" instead a Metalist Meta-Sorcerer is just mislabeling the form of Magic that is very close to Mystics or even Preserverism and Defilerism which replace extradimensional Energies to power spells with lifeforce energies to power the spells.
I mean Native Torillians lost their ability to use Psionics for a while after Mystra died so in that case Native Torillians didn't even tap their own souls for their "Psionics"...they tapped the Weave, and in a FR resource it states that Dark Sun Psionics is of the 2nd eddition Variaty and not accessable to native Torillians, so.....using 3.0 or 3.5 Psionics in Darksun is more of a Homebrew then Kosher action
Okay, here I begin to see your point. Not saying that I agree, merely that I understand what you're saying. If that is the case, though, and magic is magic where psionics is psionics, in your games do you allow a wizard to cast a hold person scroll if it's divine?
I'd allow it for wizards - as long as they can make a Decipher Script check. Anyone but a wizard would have to make a Use Magic Device check.
The way I see it is that since the spell has already been cast into the scroll and only needs the final command to activate, anyone who can figure out the activation should be able to use that scroll.
Someone on these boards had rules for Arcane Magic > Psionics. Essentially arcane magic trumps psionics in every situation where they might interact, while psionics fails against arcane magic (i.e. dispel magic affects psionic powers, while dispel psionics does diddly against arcane spells). The intent was to express that arcane magic is truly the ultimate supernatural power on Athas.
Those are the rules I use: SR will block powers and spells but PR will not block spells just as detect magic will detect power effects but not vis a versa.
But I took it a bit further, too.
Arcane magic trumps powers but divine magic does not trump powers but will effect arcane magic.
The way I see it divine magic was 'discovered' in the blue age; psionics in the early green age are (in my mind) different and do not interact at all. Arcane magic however is a corruption and leap forwards in utility of divine magic and works 'over' both.
So: Arcane Detect Magic will detect any 'supernatural' effect from spells or powers and counter them with dispel magic.
Divine magic will do the same but will have no effect on powers.
Psionics will effect divine magic but will not interact with arcane magic.
The exceptions are AM an NP fieilds which always work.
I see arcane magic as an evolution of the concepts of divine magic and psionics and is 'above' them.
Psionics is powerful enough without giving it the ability to punch through SR and anti magic shells.
Now, in regards to the novels and such, right there's your big problem - without the idea of "psionic combat" there's basically no way to correlate the book-fluff with the 3.5e mechanics. In the books, *anyone* could at least learn the basics of "psionic combat" and in several cases were even successful in (temporarily) fighting off a much more potent attacker - although we've got Saving Throws to somewhat account for this, in play it doesn't at all "feel" like that's the case - after all, anyone can fail their save against, say, a Mind Thrust one round and then make it the following...which goes against the fluff-idea of "once you're in, they're yours."
In the end, any 3/3.5e system that uses anything more than a "minor" form of "psionics are different" is going to suffer from major balance issues, which is a major issue with the overall 3.5e design and so should/would need to be rectified by more rules, such as class limitiations...which in turn cause more balance issues, etc. If you're going to limit (or exclude) transparency in a 3.5e game, either prepare for balance to go out the window, or make further rules/class revisions to help balance things back out.