Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nivek_kpk May 11, 2006 8:37:17	In everyones experience, is starting out at level 1 in dark sun doable? Including all the races from the 3.5 DS pdf and what not. The reason I ask is that after seeing the half-giant gladiator that one of my players created (we're taking the +1 Level Adjustment to just double all the required experience to level) I'm thinking it'll be terribly unbalanced...thoughts?
#2 ruhl-than_sage May 11, 2006 9:09:06	Do you even know what racial hit dice are? Half-Giants and Thri-kreen have two of them in addition to their LA meaning that even without any levels in classes they should start at level 3. If you want to start you game at level one and include those races you will need to use monster classes. Luckily for you someone has just made and posted them on the boards recently. I think they are still on the 1st page.
#3 huntercc May 11, 2006 9:17:10	Half-Giant levels Thri-kreen levels Aarakocra levels Mul levels If you use any of them let me know what you think... feedback is good The half-giant is still a work in progress, and I haven't had much feedback on the others yet.
#4 nivek_kpk May 11, 2006 12:32:38	If someone could enlighten me that would be fantastic. I've always been under the impression that the level adjustment resulted only in the requirement of a greater amount of xp to level. And how does the level adjust of +1 result in a level 3 character (in the half-gaints case, as well as any other DS races?)
#5 00_whupass_dup May 11, 2006 12:44:55	Here's a quick rundown of the Equivilent Character Level(ECL) system. A character's equivilent character level is the sum of his hit dice + any level adjustments. Therefore a 4th Level half giant fighter is ECL 7, which is the sum of 2 Racial Hit Die+4 Fighter Hit Die+1 Level adjustment. As Ruhl pointed out Thri-kreen and Half-giant both have 2 racial hit die and a +1 Level adjustment, which makes them ECL 3 before you add any class levels. To advance to the point needed to take his first level in a character class he needs the same amount of experience required for a human to reach his 4th level in a character class, which is how you understood things and is true. However if you allow players to play these races in a game where everyone is starting with 1 level in a character class regardless of race (as you're describing) that means the the Half-Giant Gladiator is ECL 4 and the Human Gladiator is ECL 1, the half giant is roughly 4 times more powerful. Yes the half giant won't gain any levels until he has enough experiance to reach character level 5, but he's was a 4th level character when the human was 1st level character, meaning it took the human that long just to catch up to the power level the half giant started the game with, which is not what you want since it will make the human characters player feel woefully inadequate for the first 4 levels of play. I hope that makes sense.
#6 huntercc May 11, 2006 12:47:04	Basically, because each hit die is the equivalent of another level. When calculating the ECL (effective character level) you add Total Class Levels + Total Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment So for a 2HD Half-Giant with no class levels: 0 + 2 + 1 = 3
#7 zombiegleemax May 11, 2006 13:17:40	how does the level adjust of +1 result in a level 3 character (in the half-gaints case, as well as any other DS races?) For each racial hit die the race gives the character they get a LA+1 In the case of the half giant they recieve 2d8 racial hit die which translates to a LA+2. This means that that when they take a Class they start out with a minimum character Level 3. LA's (Level adjustments) actually change the character level of the character unlike an ECL (Effective Character Level) which simply changes the amount of XP a character needs to level. So with an ECL2 you could be a level one character that but need the XP of a 4th level character just to advance to level 2 because you are effectively a level 3 character (this means you should have the same power level as a 3rd level character). With a LA2 you have 2 actual character levels and when taking a class you are a 3rd level character, the difference is ECL dose not give you any of the benefits of being a 3rd level character, LA on the other hand does you would get any character feats or ability adjustments due to level advancement at the normal XP progression.
#8 00_whupass_dup May 11, 2006 13:28:23	For each racial hit die the race gives the character they get a LA+1 In the case of the half giant they recieve 2d8 racial hit die which translates to a LA+2. This means that that when they take a Class they start out with a minimum character Level 3. LA's (Level adjustments) actually change the character level of the character unlike an ECL (Effective Character Level) which simply changes the amount of XP a character needs to level. So with an ECL2 you could be a level one character that but need the XP of a 4th level character just to advance to level 2 because you are effectively a level 3 character (this means you should have the same power level as a 3rd level character). With a LA2 you have 2 actual character levels and when taking a class you are a 3rd level character, the difference is ECL dose not give you any of the benefits of being a 3rd level character, LA on the other hand does you would get any character feats or ability adjustments due to level advancement at the normal XP progression. No, this is incorrect. The ECL explainations posted by both myself and huntercc are the correct method for employing the ECL system.
#9 huntercc May 11, 2006 13:46:50	You have to be careful with LA and extra Hit Dice... some things are calculated using one or the other. Without the book in front of me I can't give specific examples, all I remember is that feats & ability score adjustments that all characters get as a result of gaining levels are actually based on total Hit Dice, not level as stated in the PHB. So a Half-Giant with fewer levels than a Human will actually get ability score bonuses and extra feats sooner than the human.
#10 mystictheurge May 11, 2006 13:55:55	Read more here if you want further explanation. Below is much of the relevant information. Monsters And Class Levels If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multiclass characters. The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. A creature’s "monster class" is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size. Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL. If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of "By character class" receive NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment. Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.
#11 nivek_kpk May 11, 2006 15:36:54	Thanks everyone for not only the prompt replies but also NOT being asshats / jerks and providing me with helpfull information without being condescending.
#12 huntercc May 11, 2006 15:59:29	most of us were there too at one point or another