But recentlly decided it was "kewl". So where to begin. Im a definate 3.5 fan and While I love the Beyond the Moons site (Thanks for getting me interested guys) I think I dont want to use it.
To me SJ needs to exsist with its own Planes and realitys outside the Core Worlds. Why because the reforming of the Planes done in 3.5. But I want it to work thats my problem.
Although I have read about making the Philogistan(sp?) a Transitive Plane...Could it not some how ride along with the Plane of Shadow?
Like the Plane of Shadows connects all the Primes could not the Philogistan(sp?)?
Also could the Crystal Spheres act as Gates to the Prime?
Just some Ideas to get started, any help guys?
You can order it here for $10.
Could it not some how ride along with the Plane of Shadow?
Like the Plane of Shadows connects all the Primes could not the Philogistan(sp?)?
Also could the Crystal Spheres act as Gates to the Prime?
Well, in theory that's how it works. Players use the phlogiston to travel from one prime material (crystal sphere) plane to another.
.Spider Moon was Great. It seemed to take some away from the original Campaign, I read Andy's comments on such and been to his site.
I just thinking that SJ needs to be in its own...Separate from the Known Spheres. Would not SJ be more of a Stand alone campaign if it did not have to rely on the Big Three?
Just some thoughts to discuss....willing to be corrected...
Eric.
I just thinking that SJ needs to be in its own...Separate from the Known Spheres. Would not SJ be more of a Stand alone campaign if it did not have to rely on the Big Three?
There are pros & cons to both. Giving SJ its own setting gives you a blank slate to create from, and allows you to create a consistant setting. The downside is this: it IS a blank slate. A multi-spheric setting would be a daunting task for any writer. You tend to lose detail, and most such settings I've seen tend to reduce planets to a single paragraph, if not a single sentence. Building off of the "big three" gives you tons of material to steal from, be it individual NPCs to whole organizations looking to expand into space. You've got three sphere guides to build from, with each planet having a couple of pages. The downside to that, of course, is that the sphere books were uneven and inconsistant, creating a somewhat jarring setting.
It seems the races deserve their own historys and the ships and equipment deserve reasons.
Any one using the 3.5 any mage worth his Feats can build a "spelljammer", so why are the SJ 'jammers so special?
Its like Battletech, "mechs are so common they are thrown at each other during any old skrimmish, but reading the lore you notice that mechs are very expensive, near impossible to replace and sometimes decades old.
Is there a history behind the Hammer Head ships? Maybe im just missing out on some lore somewhere....
With all the work being done by so many folks it would be great to see one combined effort to totally revive SJ. I think our freind Andy has set the ball rolling but no one has jumped up to run with it.
For crying out load all Ravenloft was at one time was a Module. Can some of us Fan boys dedicate a little time and effort with the SRD and kick this project in to Gear?
Ah, but here I am, saying and complaining about what other folks should be doing and I have shown little or no effort on my own.
Well Night Druid, What about this. Sure, using the big three is easy, but a standard theme it seems with the Big Three is that no one on the Core Worlds gives a flying flip about Spelljamming. So what if you designed whole cultures and Spheres that thrived on it. Look at Star Wars Hundreds of Planets and all we have to go on is some movie lore and a few paragraphs on the locals. If George could get away with it we could.
Im working on a SJ Campaign...Ill start posting some of the details soon, I would love to get responses to my Ideas.
Thanks for the Help so far.
Love the work yall done already. It seems that alot of work could be simplifyed by just getting a few folks already thriving custom campaigns together under one roof. Kinda like yall've already done. But more focused like the Athas and Mystara projects....
I know i dont have the time to sit down day in and day out working on a campaign...
LOL...maybe SJ is just for us old timers? Maybe if some of these young bucks got hooked we could see the light at the end of the tunnel....BTW how much would it cost to get rights to print/sale ne SJ material?
As far as cost of "buying" SJ, figure somewhere in the 6-figure range. Its not cheap to buy a setting, mostly due to game/movie/book/CCG rights, as I understand it. One of those "if I ever win the bzillion-$ lottery, I'd buy it", but until then...
Ever watch Treasure Planet...that disney movie....It really has a SJ feel to it...Loved it!
:evillaugh let's see... a Moon Of The Month full to the core with treasures with a self destruction system
:evillaugh a GREAT IDEA :D :D
I recently found an old Dungeon mag with a SJ module in it. It rekindled my interest. Does anybody have any ideas on how to get the average gamer interested in jamming? I have been thinking of again trying to bring the horses to water, so to speak. I DM two different home games, but only one star trek fan and one star wars fan from the other group would be likely to drink...
Hi SJ devotees. I have been playing since 1980. Unfortunately, I have never been able to get to the stars with my D&D buddies. In second edition I twice tried to bring the groups I DMed into it, only to watch the groups fall apart.
I recently found an old Dungeon mag with a SJ module in it. It rekindled my interest. Does anybody have any ideas on how to get the average gamer interested in jamming? I have been thinking of again trying to bring the horses to water, so to speak. I DM two different home games, but only one star trek fan and one star wars fan from the other group would be likely to drink...
Now thats the million dollar question for a DM. The hardest part is keeping them occupied and enjoying the game while secretly making them go to where you are most prepaired to have them. ;)
GL mate.
So Ive gamed for nearlly 20 Years or so but never got into SJ. Why? Seemed really corny...swan ships and giant hamsters. LOL.
But recentlly decided it was "kewl". So where to begin. Im a definate 3.5 fan and While I love the Beyond the Moons site (Thanks for getting me interested guys) I think I dont want to use it.
I would strongly urge you to reconsider your position, with respect to Beyond the Moons (BtM).
Many people have done what you are considering and tried to go it alone. Most have spent so much effort on understanding and improving the SJ setting that they run out of steam and can't actually get onto their campaign material.
Doing it without a website means that you have no structure to attract other people and doing it with a website means that you have to deal with a lot of nuts and bots of web design that will get in the way of making game material.
I've spent several years hunting down Spelljammer websites (see the links in my sig). The problem is that doing what you are proposing requires both game design and website design skills.
The only website I have seen that comes close to (and sometimes supasses BtM) is Shattered Fractine. Mark Doolan is one of the few people (other than Static, the BtM guy) to be able to be able to both run a website and create good content.
Most other SJ efforts are either pretty websites with little useful content or great content on an ugly website. Some of the most interesting content is on sites filled with pop ups and other things that spoil your enjoyment.
SJ badly needs all the supporters it can get, but sadly the determination that many of us have to go it alone dooms most of us to fail if we try.
Rather than "not using BtM" because you don't like it, I would suggest an alternative approach:
Work with Beyond the Moons to help make it the website you would like to see. Without using BtM it will take you at least 5-10 years to gain the same sort of support that BtM or SF get. You have been very very lucky to have Night Druid read and reply to you thread, but most other SJ fans won't even know you exist if you try to do it alone.
(Despite any flaws that BtM and Shattered Fractine might have they are the only websites that have any realistic chance of bringing Spelljammer back from the grave.)
All of the sites like BtM, The Burnt World of Athas and the other official websites need people like you to help them grow. Sadly because would be SJ developers often want to go it alone BtM has been held back.
One of Spelljammers problems is that would be developers often dislike certain things like swan ships or giant hampsters. In my experience most people that want to run a SJ campaign decide "I like SJ but I want to pull out X and replace it with Y".
Then when they look for other developers they meet people that love the things they hate and hate soemthing else like The Spelljammer, itself.
This makes getting cooperation from others very hard. People sometimes even argue over where to put Bral. Most people (including BtM) follow the Cloakmaster Novels and put Bral in Spiralspace. But other people demand that it should be in the Tears of Selune because of a Forgotten Relams author thinks it should be there. If you are not very careful you might get dragged into this sort of discussion that does nothing to help you and wastes valuable development time.
The lack of agreement has, in my opinion, seriously set back the SJ community as everyone wants to ignore certain bits and redesign SJ to be what they, themselves want.
What many of these people don't seem to understand that things are not that simple. All of these elements in SJ are tiny building blocks that hold the setting itself up. When people start departing from the SJ boxed set and come with their own rules they need to reproduct the work of eight professional developers and four professional artists. Those people had the support of a graphic designer and two typographers and probably got advice from many other people.
I see you are a 3.5 fan. I'm a 3e fan and am interested in the project to convert Spelljammer to 3e. BtM and Shattered Fractine have both been working on this. If you have the skills, and objectivity to do it, I would strongly urge you to help assist the existing effort to upgrade SJ.
Some of the people on the Spelljammer Mailing List have been trying to convert missing spells and replace spells on BtM and/or SF that do not seem to follow the conversion guidlines.
If you want to run a 3.5 campaign you will need these questions answered. Working with the rest of the community, instead of trying to pull people away to a new effort will help keep things moving.
I don't think it is realistic to attempt this sort of effort on your own (unless you are another Mark Doolan). What Spelljammer needs is a "captain" to fly the SJ ship that SJ designers and DMs all want to sail on. Someone who will listen to everyone, but call the shots on what direction we need to travel in. IMO, we have already found that "captain" and it is Static. I can't see anyone else that is more likely to be able to work with everyone for the greater good of all.
He is committed to the setting and does want to do what is best. Rather than going off on your own I would advise you to become part of the crew. You can help build a BtM that you and your players do want to use.
Once we get the basic rules sorted out, you will be able to find a set of PDFs on the Spelljammer for D&D 3rd Edition page.
This might not do everything that you are looking for, but it is a good start. I think it is the common interest of all (especially fans of the new rules) to work on this effort. Once we have this basic level of SJ available we can add more and more to it. Without it there are too many holes to make gameplay flow well (and you have to make stuff up on the fly).
Once the basic 3e rules and the majority of the campaign setting is roughed out people can start work on their own crystal spheres, alternative rules and other things.
That is my plan anyway. Once I've got the essentials done I might be able to help you with your projects.
To me SJ needs to exsist with its own Planes and realitys outside the Core Worlds. Why because the reforming of the Planes done in 3.5. But I want it to work thats my problem.
Although I have read about making the Philogistan(sp?) a Transitive Plane...Could it not some how ride along with the Plane of Shadow?
Like the Plane of Shadows connects all the Primes could not the Philogistan(sp?)?
Also could the Crystal Spheres act as Gates to the Prime?
Just some Ideas to get started, any help guys?
The basic SJ/Planescape cosmology (started in SJ and finished in Planescape) is a change to the earlier model. There is only one prime material plane. This plane contains the phlogiston and all the crystal spheres that fit within it.
Actually, I've recently had a very long discussion with a SJ guy called Loki, who is an expert on both SJ and Planescape about SJ cosmology. He is probably the best SJ cosmology expert in the community. We both came to the conclusion that it would be better to ignore cosmology for now and get the main SJ campaign setting upgraded first. We both want to work on your questions and do much more.
I'd advise you to avoid going down this route for now. You would need to do a lot of research (and read as much Planescape and SJ stuff as you can) and it will probably take you between 1 and 3 years to produce some rules that (unless you want to travel into the planes) you probably won't ever use. If you do want to go down that route then we will probably be looking to talk to people like you at some time in the future, but it won't be anytime soon.
I see your points ND, I also see the incredible work done by you and others on the SJ Official site. SJ deserves to have a dedicated campaign...i mean its like SJ seems so thrown together...kinda like what Pallidium does with its games...throws to much at you with no real meat.
SJ does deserve a new campaign setting and the Spelljammer Mailing List are currently exploring the options for how big it should be, where it should go and how connected it should be to the original setting - The Radiant Triangle. I suggest you join the mailing list and spend some time reading what everyone else is thinking of doing before rushing off.
It seems the races deserve their own historys and the ships and equipment deserve reasons.
I agree. However, this will need a lot of research. I've recently been looking over one of these topics and it has taken me a couple of weeks just to start collating what is out there.
Any one using the 3.5 any mage worth his Feats can build a "spelljammer", so why are the SJ 'jammers so special?
A shipwright would build a spelljammer. Are you talking about spelljamming helms? If you are then any wizard or sorcerer would be able to build one if, and only if they knew the secret process that would allow them to make this permanent. The mercane (arcane) make a lot of money out of spelljamming helms and would probably go to great lengths (perhaps even assassination) if someone was about to spoil their monopoly.
How the mercane have managed to to maintain their monopoly is a mystery that SJ never really answered. We need to find an answer at some point. I'd rather create an answer (and possibly use that answer as a long term plot arc) that sidestep the issue and let everyone and his wife churn out helms like they are factory products.
Its like Battletech, "mechs are so common they are thrown at each other during any old skrimmish, but reading the lore you notice that mechs are very expensive, near impossible to replace and sometimes decades old.
The spelljamming ships themselves are things that any shipwright can learn to make or repair. It is the helm and other magical items that are really hard to replace under the 2e rules. Perhaps making them difficult to break will mean that shipwrecks get salvaged over time and most helms come back into circulation.
It is dangerous to start comparing spelljammer to other settings, especially science fiction settings like Battletech. But I see no reason why someone couldn't salvage ship parts as easily as someone could salvage mech technology.
Is there a history behind the Hammer Head ships? Maybe im just missing out on some lore somewhere....
The Hammership is a spacefaring hull design built by humans and lizardfolk (lizardmen) and are also used by elves and mindflayers. Modified versions exist and the various races and groups associated with those races are obviously going to have influenced the original design and the modifications.
We have these basics (from LotV) but do need to expand upon them in a logical manner. You could say the same of any other SJ element. We know some stuff, but not the whole story.
One of the problems is that all of these bits are interconnected. For example if elves use hammerships then the Sindiath Line and Elven Navy probably use them. They might even have their own modifications.
Everytime we update one bit we need to update all of the bits that touch it. That is a very hard task as those bits might cause changes that trickle on through several other parts of SJ.
With all the work being done by so many folks it would be great to see one combined effort to totally revive SJ. I think our freind Andy has set the ball rolling but no one has jumped up to run with it.
There is some truth in what you say, but it isn't entirely true. There are a small number of people that do want to run with the ball and are trying to go with it. I think it would be more constructive to find one of those people that you can work with and ask them: "what do you want me to do?"
Also while Andy set the ball rolling, he didn't necessarily set it rolling towards our goal. He was forced to drop certain SJ factions and concepts in order to work inside the size limit he got.
We still need to fill in many of the things that he couldn't cover. Most importantly his setting, while good, is an isolated setting that like the Astromundi Cluster doesn't easily fit in with the rest of the universe.
Throwing your own setting ideas onto the playing field just gives us yet another goal to head towards. We have too many goals already - we need to agree on one goal, head towards it and help the guy who already has picked up the ball get it over the line.
Don't be offended, because I had the same universe saving ideas myself. But if you actually look at who is around before making your plan to save the SJ setting you might find that someone else's plan is better than yours. Instead of trying to save the entire universe, why not find a small bit where you can make a difference and sort that out.
For crying out load all Ravenloft was at one time was a Module. Can some of us Fan boys dedicate a little time and effort with the SRD and kick this project in to Gear?
Ah, but here I am, saying and complaining about what other folks should be doing and I have shown little or no effort on my own.
I suggest you surf over to Beyond the Moons and look at the instructions for joining the mailing list. I think you will find that the project is in gear. It might be in low gear, but it is in gear.
Well Night Druid, What about this. Sure, using the big three is easy, but a standard theme it seems with the Big Three is that no one on the Core Worlds gives a flying flip about Spelljamming. So what if you designed whole cultures and Spheres that thrived on it. Look at Star Wars Hundreds of Planets and all we have to go on is some movie lore and a few paragraphs on the locals. If George could get away with it we could.
Im working on a SJ Campaign...Ill start posting some of the details soon, I would love to get responses to my Ideas.
This issue is another one that has been covered by the SJML. But designing hundreds of planets is no easy task. Night Druid is probably one of the best setting designers and he only turns out one moon per month (hence the name - Moon of the Month).
Lets take an example crystal sphere - Krynnspace. This has 22 planets and moons, so even if you cut down each one to the same level as ND's moons it would take approximately 22 months to do the setting justice. And moons are relatively easy to do. Larger planets have much more surface areas and factions to create. Even TSR and WotC have not finished creating Krynn!
It is easy to talk about getting things done, but if you think about things a bit more carefully, you will see how many man-hours it will take to get things finished. The only real way to get things done in a reasonable timescale is to pool resources, get the basics done and avoid getting bogged down by controversial issues.
On another note, Treasure Planet is a direct rip-off of Spelljammer, since even though they don't have philogiston and spheres, they use seafaring ships to fly and can [presumably] breathe in space.
I would embrace a new rewrite of the SJ setting. I have little of the old stuff left and have been considering getting the old pdf's from pazzio. The old stuff needs major work to use with the current system. The later days of TSR gave us more questions, gaps, and inconsistency in the material than anything.
I personally think that if Spelljammer is ever officially republished, that should be based somewhat more in reality for more people to be able to understand it, like SotSM went. So that means that philogiston and spheres are out and replaced by the "cold merciless vacuum of outer space" and conventional star systems and real-world physics. So it essentially becomes a pseudo-realistic Space Arcana, with the fantasy races as aliens, plus starships powered either by magic (spelljamming and lifejamming helms) or technology (star drives, solar sails, etc).
If you've gutted almost every aspect of Spelljammer from the game, why bother calling it spelljammer at all? What element of SJ is left, other than ships in space? Why not just start over with a completely new game?
Additionally, "rings" could be built around planar portals and then place in space, acting as magical "jump gates" (devices built around wormholes to facilitate stellar travel).
Why put the rings in space? Planar portals work just as well on the ground as in space, so why go to the hassles of putting them in space?
The problem is, how much science or science fiction do you want with your fantasy? Why would wizards bother to remake the setting unless it is heavy fantasy? At what point do you say, "Let's just play X instead of spelljammer." If you can get the players to swallow the big lies like crystal shells and air envelopes, the little things slide down easier. Too much science in your fantasy can cause a lack of wonder and amazement. The players begin to think they can qualify and quantify everything in the universe instead of believing in the magic.
I would embrace a new rewrite of the SJ setting. I have little of the old stuff left and have been considering getting the old pdf's from pazzio. The old stuff needs major work to use with the current system. The later days of TSR gave us more questions, gaps, and inconsistency in the material than anything.
Perhaps the idea of science should be removed. The only things changed in my idea of SJ 3.5 are the most unrealistic aspects, such as philogiston replaced by vacuum and spheres replaced by systems. There should be absolutely NO advanced technology. Everything should be of Victorian Era progress level at the highest, and ships are powered exclusively by magic.
I personally think that if Spelljammer is ever officially republished, that should be based somewhat more in reality for more people to be able to understand it, like SotSM went. So that means that philogiston and spheres are out and replaced by the "cold merciless vacuum of outer space" and conventional star systems and real-world physics. So it essentially becomes a pseudo-realistic Space Arcana, with the fantasy races as aliens, plus starships powered either by magic (spelljamming and lifejamming helms) or technology (star drives, solar sails, etc). This all would still be compatable with 3.5 cosmology, since it would all occur in the [Prime] Material Plane, with all the campaign settings taking place in their own isolated star systems.
If you've gutted almost every aspect of Spelljammer from the game, why bother calling it spelljammer at all? What element of SJ is left, other than ships in space? Why not just start over with a completely new game?
The only things changed in my idea of SJ 3.5 are the most unrealistic aspects. The Arcane, Beholders, Dwarven Citadels, Giff, Neogi, Pirates of Giff, Scro, and Giant Space Hamsters can all still be there, and the only thing removed be the Crystal Spheres/Phlogiston.
Additionally, "rings" could be built around planar portals and then place in space, acting as magical "jump gates" (devices built around wormholes to facilitate stellar travel).
Why put the rings in space? Planar portals work just as well on the ground as in space, so why go to the hassles of putting them in space?
You don't know what a Jump Gate is, do you? Jump Gates allow near instantaneous travel between two connected gates, and would work much faster than conventional spelljamming/lifejamming. For example, you build a jump gate in orbit around Krynn, and another one near Faerun. You then fly your ship throw the Krynn gate and end up at Faerun in a fraction of the time it would take to simply travel via spelljamming/lifejamming.
You don't know what a Jump Gate is, do you? Jump Gates allow near instantaneous travel between two connected gates, and would work much faster than conventional spelljamming/lifejamming. For example, you build a jump gate in orbit around Krynn, and another one near Faerun. You then fly your ship throw the Krynn gate and end up at Faerun in a fraction of the time it would take to simply travel via spelljamming/lifejamming.
Dude, I know what a jump gate is. That was not my question. In sci fi, the usual reason to put a jumpgate in space is to get away from atmosphere & gravity, which can muck things up. But portals in D&D work just fine on the ground. The question is, why bother going to expense of putting a portal IN space and the added expense of getting there and back when you can simply put one on the ground ala Stargate? There's no justification for the added expense. And it buys you almost nothing, other than a nice view of a planet as you leave/return.
Perhaps the idea of science should be removed. The only things changed in my idea of SJ 3.5 are the most unrealistic aspects, such as philogiston replaced by vacuum and spheres replaced by systems. There should be absolutely NO advanced technology. Everything should be of Victorian Era progress level at the highest, and ships are powered exclusively by magic.
The only things changed in my idea of SJ 3.5 are the most unrealistic aspects. The Arcane, Beholders, Dwarven Citadels, Giff, Neogi, Pirates of Giff, Scro, and Giant Space Hamsters can all still be there, and the only thing removed be the Crystal Spheres/Phlogiston.
You don't know what a Jump Gate is, do you? Jump Gates allow near instantaneous travel between two connected gates, and would work much faster than conventional spelljamming/lifejamming. For example, you build a jump gate in orbit around Krynn, and another one near Faerun. You then fly your ship throw the Krynn gate and end up at Faerun in a fraction of the time it would take to simply travel via spelljamming/lifejamming.
You're forgetting that getting there was half the adventure. Unless of course you plan to have pirates and such camp out in front of a given gate. Plus what about the theme of space exploration? In order for a jump gate to exist, somebody had to travel out into the great unknown, find a spot and build the gate there. Your jump gate idea is only good for so much. You forget about the spirit of exploration that was part and parcel to one of the themes of the game. Finding new worlds and new spheres. Getting lost on purpose so you could find new trade routes to different worlds. Jump gates are fine for known space but it only addresses part of what SJ can be and neglects the other half.
But the 3.5 Spelljammer can still have all the old stuff I mentioned, such as the Arcane, Beholders, Dwarven Citadels, Giff, Neogi, Pirates of Giff, Scro, and Giant Space Hamsters. It just doesn't need to have Crystal Spheres/Phlogiston.
I only suggested Jump Gates as an optional thing. We don't need them. In fact, let's just ignore them for now.
But the 3.5 Spelljammer can still have all the old stuff I mentioned, such as the Arcane, Beholders, Dwarven Citadels, Giff, Neogi, Pirates of Giff, Scro, and Giant Space Hamsters. It just doesn't need to have Crystal Spheres/Phlogiston.
That sounds fine to me. Your "real world Physics" and "starships powered by technology" comments had me worried. (I don't even much like guns and cannons seeping into my games without heavy handed control of them.) The first 2e SJ game I played in had no Phlogiton, because the DM didn't like it. I ran my first SJ campaign with no Phlogiston as a result. The games were extremely fun despite the lack of the Phlogiston. I don't know how many old schoolers would agree though. It is hard to change or take away things without changing some of its feel.
Gates are fine in the hands of a DM with good story. I would never allow my players unrestricted access or working knowledge of one though.
the practicalities of grav planes on ships, and catapults in space gives me a headache, but it's really part of the charm of the entire setting
Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide-Your basic pair of books from which everything else spawns.
Monster Manuals-As many as you can afford critters are a necessity regardless of what edition you're playing.
Stormwrack-for the Hadozee and equipment as well as ideas for running things on seas and water worlds.
PHB 2-New classes and more feats
DMG 2-veterans and newbies alike should read this
Dragon Compendium Volume 1-more new classes, lupin and a lot omaterial updated for 3.5
Eberron-Steal the artificier and warforged because these are about the coolest bits of the setting as is.
Airships by Bastion Press-Veterans of SJ will recognize many of these "engines" as helms with a different spin. More toys for equipping ships.
Iron Kingdoms Character Guide, Monsternomicon and Liber Mechanika-Equipment, critters and a few classes as well as interesting alternative to making magic items.
You also need to track down the January 2006 issue of Dragon Magazine for the Giff if nothing else.
Honorable mentions: Sword and Sorcery anything but two books that will be of most interest for SJ campaigns are When the Sky Falls written by Bruce Cordell and Chaositech written by Monte Cook. Almost anything by Monte Cook is worth considering as the man is just that good.
Heroes of Battle also has alot of neat stuff for a SJ campaign.
I personally could use the portal/stargate thing. Why are they so far out in space? Who knows, as the "ancients" (a version does exist in the SJ mythos) arent around anymore to explain it. They left this neat network or portals that you can use.
You should see Babylon 5, as they use the same idea. A network of Jump Gates in space to facilitate interstellar travel, originally built by (now extinct) ancients.
I personally love the idea that fantasy space is WAY different than real space. Because if you think about it, any universe that allows magic would have to function under laws that are different on a fundamental level. The Crystal Spheres and the Flow just reinforce this. It's like one of the books in the boxed set said (can't remember which one): "It's Magic, and it knows it's Magic!"
I personally could use the portal/stargate thing. Why are they so far out in space? Who knows, as the "ancients" (a version does exist in the SJ mythos) arent around anymore to explain it. They left this neat network or portals that you can use.
Heroes of Battle also has alot of neat stuff for a SJ campaign.
Even if it didn't have "Ancients" you could always make references to them and never ever completely figure out who they were, how they got so powerful or what the freak happened to them. Not even if you get a character Hells bent on finding out. Ancient beings that built strange and wonderful things for purposes only they knew has been a theme used for a very, very long time, it never gets old and it never gets stale. The concept is the twinkie of gaming and storytelling.
Heroes of Battle does, and I thank you for reminding me. You don't absolutely need it but the toys are nice enough that if you have it, including bits and pieces of it in the game will enhance play.
Definently want to stay with the Old School feel though....and seeing that its been suggested by Bigmac to stick with whats been done already and add to it. I will.
Thanks Big Mac your suggestions have been great.
I do want to avoid the "reality" of Space travel...I have DragonStar...a great D&D Sci-Fi Game...I really dont need another version of that....
Eric.
I know I would never have been able to pull it off without all the work that people have done on sites like beyond the moons. To try to go it alone would be madness - the way of the lost (now dead and nearly useless) spheres. I hope to see some of your stuff.
Anyway. Let's all work toward the day when SJ 3.5 will be ready to be unleashed on the unsuspecting newbies...
Regards all,
JF
Regards all,
JF
The big pain in the butt is going to be the first time we have ship to ship combat. I put it to a vote, and they all decided that we should use a 3d combat system.
The old 2e SJ ship combat system doesn't fit in with 3e, but then it never fitted in with 2e either. The turn sequence was a non-standard one with more of a wargaming feel than a role playing feel.
In fact in the adventure Crystal Spheres, when a space battle occurs, role playing is completely abandoned and it is suggested that the DM gets the players to fight out the battle with special rules that ban boarding actions.
I'd like to see the 3e SJCS give us combat rules for ships that are 100 percent compatible with the combat rules in the PHB (and SRD). This would allow ship combat and crew combat to happen at the same time. However, because SR and many spells are tied into the old system a lot of careful work would be needed.
Rates of fire of weapons would need to be adjusted and hex size would either have to be reduced or SR itself would have to be reduced. Any tinkering in this department could cause unexpected effects to the game balance, so some detailed playtesting and feedback would probably be needed. I'm tempted to say we should keep the pace of the original boxed set and adjust the hex sizes and spell ranges in order to make them comply with the new 'reality'.
What are you currently doing for initiative? As a ship is moved by the helmsman I would suggest that it is logical for a ship's initiative to be the helmsman's initiative. It is probably also logical for the helmsman to make all the ships saving throws. Hull damage is an interesting thing. Helmsmen are supposed to feel damage, but letting them know the actual amount of damage might change the way the player controlling them reacts. If think helmsmen know the exact amount of damage, then you would probably let the player record the ships hull damage. A player might be tempted to have their PC jump out of the helm if the hull points drop very low (that is probably exactly what happens if the PC survives a spelljammer shock saving throw).
Maneuverability Class (MC) should probably be converted to the standard 3.5e flying rules. I'm not sure where it is in the DMG or MM, but the SRD contains rules called: 'Moving In Three Dimensions' that would make a good starting point for the SJ 3e setting. The original SJ boxed set departed from 2e creature maneuverability and used different maneuverability classes for Spelljamming ships. I personally think that, if possible, it would be better to use the same maneuverability that flying creatures use. A common set of flying rules would make it much easier for a DM to run encounters between spelljamming ships airborn creatures when a ship takes off or lands. Ideally, a DM running a campaign in Krynnspace should be able to easily run a combat between a spelljamming ship and a dragon-rider and a DM running a campaign in Realmspace should be able to do the same thing with the Knights of Nimbral mounted on their pegasi.
However, I'm unsure about ships weapons. The old 2e system seems to have a ship doing its movement and attacks at the same time, but with each ship's weapon having its own crew I can't see a reason to not allow individual weapons to have their own initiative. A man firing a catapult on a hammership is in my opinion no different to a man firing a crossbow on horseback. Again the most logical thing is to get the person supervising the weapon to make initiative and attack rolls for that weapon. Most ships weapons have crews and it is logical to assume that everyone in the crew is performing an aid action (DC = 10) to boost the attack roll by +2 (i.e. the existing stats cover weapons that are fully manned).
EDIT: Actually, the old 2e system gave weapons fixed THAC0s so took them out of the 'normal' combat system used for PCs and NPCs. I think it would be good to return ship weapons to the normal combat system (in the 3e SJCS) and give each weapon a bonus to hit that gives an average 3e crewman the same chance to hit as the old 2e system. BtM already has some ship weapon feats (sadly they are hidden at the moment and you need to do a bit of digging to find them) so it looks like they are going down this route.
Giving PCs and NPCs manning ships weapons their own initiative roll makes combat a bit slower. It could also be seen as effectively 'giving' the ship a free Flyby Attack feat, which clashes with how the 2e SJ rules. However the rate of fire for ships weapons is so slow that they probably would be a small part of ship to creature combat. Space combat would be a different matter with players probably wanting to fly past ships and fire weapons at close range. You could probably rule that this gives everyone on the opposing ship (with a ranged weapon) an attack of opportunity (and let that rule limit this sort of behavior).