-Radnovius
If in your opinion the changed mechanics are deficient in some way, then change them to your liking. 2nd Edition wasn't strict when it came time to respecte the rules - as 3rd Edition is in comparaison -, but nothing is stoping you to modify the rules for your own game.
...knowing this, you'll excuse me if I say I find threads such as this somewhat moot.
I'll have to disagree here. I think if others post what they do or do not like about the system it will help myself and others make the conversion. If such a thread fosters a free exchange of ideas, it's worthwhile.
For instance, I think the defiler rules for 3.5 don't reflect the spirit of the class from the original. Defilers were meant to advance more quickly than preservers. Some ideas could be to add a level modifier to defiler or preserver so as to slow one or speed the other. Another possiblity is that defilers could earn more experience than preservers for doing the same sorts of things.
-Radnovius
For instance, I think the defiler rules for 3.5 don't reflect the spirit of the class from the original. Defilers were meant to advance more quickly than preservers. Some ideas could be to add a level modifier to defiler or preserver so as to slow one or speed the other. Another possiblity is that defilers could earn more experience than preservers for doing the same sorts of things.
3.5 got rid off different rates of advancement. Everyone requires the same amount of experience to advance now. As for adding a level adjustment to the class, well a) it's unprecedented and b) you would be penalizing someone for doing the thing that most people are likely going to want to do (i.e. be a preserver) for no reason than to add some "flavor." A bad idea in my opinion. I think the athas.org rules do enough to add the difference in flavor between defilers and preservers to maintain the feel without penalizing anyone in particular. That said, if I were gonna do something it would probably include casting times and energy drawing, preserving taking longer, but again while it's fine in literature, it makes the class weaker.
Which brings us to the fact that 3.5 also introduced (or began enforcing) the concept of inter-class balance. Now it's obviously not perfect, but in theory any player playing any class should be on roughly equal footing with anyone playing any other class. Making defiliers more powerful than presevers goes against one of the core mechanics of D&D 3.5. Sure you could change it, but you'd end up with a d20 game, not a D&D game, and I'm fairly sure athas.org is going for the latter.
And I have to agree with Pennarin not Kal (or maybe Kal too), it seems your complaints with 3.5 are so inherent to the new system as to be unsolvable. Meaning there's not much point to complaining about them.
I think you mean Pennarin- but I agree. If you do not like the current system, maybe seker's d20 DS system will be more of your style- but you would have to ask him about a copy of it.
But here is my additional two bits- do what you think works for your game- it is YOUR game and as long as your players and you are having fun then it does not matter.
I spent many, many hours going over the athas.org 3e rulebook, making tons of changes to classes, rules, feats, etc., to give it more of the 2e DS feel...but in doing so I completely unbalanced the classes, the races, the whole darn thing.
My point is this - if you want to play 3e the way it was originally designed (as a balanced system where everyone is on equal footing, the DM can balance and pace encounters/treasure/XP easily and quickly without having to 'know' the PCs, their capabilities, etc. beyond knowing what level they are, etc.), then Dark Sun will definitely have a different "feel" than it did for 2e; there's no way around that. If you don't care about balance, and are more concerned with the overall feel, then do what nearly every 3e DM does - change the rules to your liking.
Beyond that, the others are absolutely correct - what you're suggesting is "wrong about 3e DS" goes against the entire 3e concept, and unless/until you rephrase your ideas it's a moot point.
2. I am concerned about balance between the classes. I'm not advocating nerfing preservers. As I said before that was just an isolated example of a change. I think that If I changed one class, I'd have to change them all to preserve the balance. As for our wizard discussion, defiling is the quick and easy path of the wizard but less rewarding. If preserving is more difficult then it should be more rewarding. Perhaps preservers could take a penalty to XP but get more skills/feats than defilers. Of course things may have to be added to other classes to maintain the balance.
3. I don't think that the PHB classes translate well into Dark Sun as they are. For instance Clerics of Athas should not be as adept at weilding positive or negative energy since the origin of their powers is not the outer planes but the elemental planes. Thus, the Spontaneous Casting ability does not make much sense as it is in the PHB.
2. I am concerned about balance between the classes. I'm not advocating nerfing preservers. As I said before that was just an isolated example of a change. I think that If I changed one class, I'd have to change them all to preserve the balance. As for our wizard discussion, defiling is the quick and easy path of the wizard but less rewarding. If preserving is more difficult then it should be more rewarding. Perhaps preservers could take a penalty to XP but get more skills/feats than defilers. Of course things may have to be added to other classes to maintain the balance.
I personally, have been working with a modification of the Defiler rules presented in Dragon Magazine (or was it Dungeon?). I removed references to T'liz, and added in the addiction rules from the Book of Vile Darkness. This, I think makes the defilers a bit more powerful, but also provides a counterbalance (the addiction to defiling), and when I do finally get a Dark Sun campaign together, it is how I'll present the class for my players.
3. I don't think that the PHB classes translate well into Dark Sun as they are. For instance Clerics of Athas should not be as adept at weilding positive or negative energy since the origin of their powers is not the outer planes but the elemental planes. Thus, the Spontaneous Casting ability does not make much sense as it is in the PHB.
I also don't like them as they are from the PHB. I've done some work modifying the clerics a bit... still a little leary about some of my decisions, but generally speaking, I like what Ruhl-Thaun Sage has done for the spell lists for Clerics, would love to see some decent sets of domains for each of the element/paraelements in the same light. My cleric write-up is on my site (link in my signature, the "My Dark Sun Articles" one). I also have a write-up for sorcerer, paladin, and monk there. I'm thinking of getting my other variations also up onto my site, because every class I tweaked at least a little bit.
I've been laying around with game mechanics, to make a feel for what I want Dark Sun to be... everything from changin how damage works (to the vitality/wound system, and armor as damage reduction), to even little changes to the races (making them all naturally psionic and having at least one power point innately).
For instance Clerics of Athas should not be as adept at weilding positive or negative energy since the origin of their powers is not the outer planes but the elemental planes. Thus, the Spontaneous Casting ability does not make much sense as it is in the PHB.
I've heard people arguing this before and honestly it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not so fluent in 3e cosmology, but in original 2e/DS cosmology the positive and negative energy planes were inner planes, and connected to the elemental planes through the quasi-elemental planes. Thus I really see no (fluff) reason not to allow spontaneous casting.
And to go a step further, I have to concur with everyone who's ever said spontaneous heal casting finally made clerics playable. When you had to choose how many spell-slots to devote to healing (which was going to be one of your important party functions) you really couldn't ever get much else to play with. By allowing 3e clerics to use any spell as a healing spell, WotC really opened the class up to a more interesting, viable, playable class.
People have discussed allowing elemental clerics to spontaneously cast elemental spells instead, which you could certainly do if you want, but it does make it harder for someone to play a cleric, be able to heal the party while still having a variety of spells available each day.
I've heard people arguing this before and honestly it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not so fluent in 3e cosmology, but in original 2e/DS cosmology the positive and negative energy planes were inner planes, and connected to the elemental planes through the quasi-elemental planes. Thus I really see no (fluff) reason not to allow spontaneous casting.
They weren't accounted for in the Dark Sun cosmology, which is a subset from the original 2E cosmology. Defilers & Preservers does a decent enough job outlining the differences.
And to go a step further, I have to concur with everyone who's ever said spontaneous heal casting finally made clerics playable. When you had to choose how many spell-slots to devote to healing (which was going to be one of your important party functions) you really couldn't ever get much else to play with. By allowing 3e clerics to use any spell as a healing spell, WotC really opened the class up to a more interesting, viable, playable class.
People have discussed allowing elemental clerics to spontaneously cast elemental spells instead, which you could certainly do if you want, but it does make it harder for someone to play a cleric, be able to heal the party while still having a variety of spells available each day.
My solution was vitality/wound system rather than normal hit points. Healing becomes less of a necessity then, because vitality points are recovered rather quickly. Wound points are what healing would need to handle, and wound points are pretty important. There are also significantly fewer, and are not as commonly damaged. Thus, a cleric could get away with having a minimal number of healing spells handy and still be very viable as a party member.
They weren't accounted for in the Dark Sun cosmology, which is a subset from the original 2E cosmology. Defilers & Preservers does a decent enough job outlining the differences.
I'm fairly sure Dragon Kings has a diagram of the elemental planes, including the quasi-elemental and positive/negative energy planes, in the Cleric chapter.
As for clerics, my own take is to change the energy source of the healing. Instead of using positive energy, I'm setting it up for using elemental energy. Because the cleric is attempting to restore the balance using a single energy type, the spell is not as powerful as a Cure spell and depends on the target's hit dice. Here My first incarnation is this spell:
[B]Minor Elemental Infusion[/b]
Transmutation (Healing) [Elemental]
Level: Clr1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Saving Throw: Fortitude half (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
When laying your hand on a living creature, you channel elemental energy to attempt to repair damage suffered by restoring the balance in the body’s elemental proportions, thereby healing 1dX points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5) where X is half of the target’s maximum hit die. For example, if you cast minor elemental infusion on a level 2/1 psion/fighter, you would roll 1d5 (based upon the 1d10 hit die of the fighter class) and add the points for caster level.
As for weilding +/- energy, Athasian clerics were able to do so under 2E, but it was a minor ability, not a major one. They did not have access to the most powerful of healing spells. Maybe there could be a quasi-elemental priest prestige class?
I think your cleric has a lot of good traits. I think my own version might have fewer granted powers independent of domain. I don't know that I'll dole out class skills by element but was considering some domain-based skills. I do particularly like escape artist as a class skill for air clerics. I'll be sure to post my version when completed. For now I'll include the first version of my Elemental Command domain.
Elemental Command
Element: Any
Granted Power: Turn or destroy creatures of your opposing element as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke or command creatures of your element as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your charisma modifier.
Elemental Command Domain Spells
1 Summon Elemental I. Calls elemental outsider to fight for you.
2 Control Element. You control movement and energy of an amount of your element.
3 Summon Elemental III. Calls elemental outsider to fight for you.
4 Lesser Elemental Ally. Exchange services with an 8 HD elemental outsider.
5 Summon Elemental V. Calls elemental outsider to fight for you.
6 Elemental Ally. As lesser elemental ally but up to 16 HD.
7 Lesser Elemental Swarm. Summons elementals: 2d4 Small, 1d4 Medium, and 1 Large.
8 Greater Elemental Ally. As lesser elemental ally but up to 24 HD.
9 Elemental Swarm. Summons elementals: 2d4 Large, 1d4 Huge, and 1 Greater. {PHB}
Summon Elemental = Summon Monster but outsider origin is restricted to the elemental plane of the cleric.
Elemental Ally = Planar Ally but outsider origin is restricted to the elemental plane of the cleric.
Control Element : Spells will vary slightly by element, but I haven't gotten each worked out yet.
-Radnovius
Xlorep,
I think your cleric has a lot of good traits. I think my own version might have fewer granted powers independent of domain. I don't know that I'll dole out class skills by element but was considering some domain-based skills. I do particularly like escape artist as a class skill for air clerics. I'll be sure to post my version when completed. For now I'll include the first version of my Elemental Command domain.
Cool, as I said, I'm not entirely comfortable with some of my class, and have been tossing around a few different ideas to smooth it out more.
Step 1: Scrap or modify most of the DS 3.5 domains (too much element mixing, though some are rather promising). Create new domains that are element specific (all spells within domain relate to a single element), elementally related but where the elemental energy supporting domain spells could be substituted (see sample spell below), or generic for any element with generic elemental spells (see Elemental Command up the thread). Remove all spells from the cleric list.
Step 2: A cleric's domain spells would depend upon the two domains chosen, but all of the domain spells related to his element would make up his choices. Thus spells would read Level: Domain #, Element #
Step 3 (Here's where I have some variable ideas. I'm not sure how many I really like.):
A: For the general cleric list add all non-elemental spells up to level 4 (1 level below the midline like minor access in 2 E).
B: For the general cleric list add all non-elemental spells but raise their level by X. This would make cure light wounds level 1 + X.
C: For the general cleric list add all non-elemental spells, but the cleric casts such spells at -X caster level.
D: A cleric has access to spells of adjacent paraelements at +1 spell level and adjacent elements at +2 spell level (i.e. a fire cleric could cast a level 1 earth spell as a level 3 cleric spell).
E: A cleric casts spells of adjacent paraelements at -1 caster level and adjacent elements at -2 caster level (i.e. a lvl 5 fire cleric could cast aan earth spell as a level 3 cleric).
F: Some combination of A-E.
Incendiary Embers
Conjuration (Creation) [Fire/Magma/Sun]
Level: Fire 6, Magma 6, Sun 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action/ember
Range: 100 feet
Effect: Up to 4 embers
Saving Throw: Reflex half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
Up to four grenade-like embers may be conjured that can be hurled up to 100 feet. A ranged touch attack role is required to strike an intended target. Each ember bursts upon striking any hard surface. Together embers are capable of dealing 1d8 points of fire, magma, or sun damage (depending upon the element of the casting cleric) per level (maximum 20d8), divided up among the embers as the caster wishes. The embers deal 1 point of splash damage per die and ignite combustible materials within 10 feet. If a creature within the burst area makes a successful Reflex saving throw, it takes only half damage; a creature struck directly always sustains full damage (no saving throw).
Material components: The component depends on the version of the spell and the number of components equals the number of embers created. Fire: small fire-scorched nuts or pieces of wood. Magma: small igneous stones. Sun: sun-dried berries.
-Radnovius
Sage has already made spell lists for all the elements and a general spell list- i am sure he will se this and be willing to post a link to his site or the thread on the message board where he has them.
Elemental Cleric Spell Lists :D
Incendiary Embers
Conjuration (Creation) [Fire/Magma/Sun]
Level: Fire 6, Magma 6, Sun 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action/ember
Range: 100 feet
Effect: Up to 4 embers
Saving Throw: Reflex half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
Up to four grenade-like embers may be conjured that can be hurled up to 100 feet. A ranged touch attack role is required to strike an intended target. Each ember bursts upon striking any hard surface. Together embers are capable of dealing 1d8 points of fire, magma, or sun damage (depending upon the element of the casting cleric) per level (maximum 20d8), divided up among the embers as the caster wishes. The embers deal 1 point of splash damage per die and ignite combustible materials within 10 feet. If a creature within the burst area makes a successful Reflex saving throw, it takes only half damage; a creature struck directly always sustains full damage (no saving throw).
Material components: The component depends on the version of the spell and the number of components equals the number of embers created. Fire: small fire-scorched nuts or pieces of wood. Magma: small igneous stones. Sun: sun-dried berries.
-Radnovius
Nice spell but, there is only Fire damage. Magma and Sun are not enery types.
2. What about general spells? Does everyone just think that Clerics should have access to the general spell list? This runs a bit contrary to Darksun 2E, where major healing was the province of templars and druids.
-Radnovius
1. I consider them to be different. Else how do Fire and Magma elementals fight each other, (its from one of the 2E supplements, don't remember which)?
Sage's point is that there's no such thing as magma and sun energy in 3E.
There are five energy types: fire, cold, sonic, electric and acid. You can argue the semantics of the decision all you want (for instance acid is hardly an "energy" when you get right down to it), but the fact of the matter is that in 3E those are the energy types.
And a fire and magma elemental fight each other using slam attacks which do regular damage, in addition to fire damage (the latter of which they would both likely be immune to).
If you want to House Rule in an energy type for each element and paraelement you can, but it won't be standard 3E.
2. What about general spells? Does everyone just think that Clerics should have access to the general spell list? This runs a bit contrary to Darksun 2E, where major healing was the province of templars and druids.
-Radnovius
Well, that's the point of the general spell list as I concieved it. There are a few spells on it that I might remove; such as Resurrection and Raise Dead, but all and all it seems fine to me that they have major healing ability.
Water Cleanses-Healing is accompanied by a sense of cool water washing over ones wounds.
Fire Purifies-Healing is accompanied by a sense of burning as the flesh knits back together, or the toxins are burned away.
Earth Rejuvenates-Healing is accompanied by the smell of richly tilled soil and a sense of new growth.
Air Refreshes-Healing is accompanied by a sense of pure clean air flowing into your lungs and invorating your body as oxygen flows through your blood.
2. Energies: The elemental savant class in Tome and Blood uses these energy element equivalents:
Fire - Fire
Air - Electricity
Earth - Acid
Water - Cold
One could then posit that paraelemental equivalents could be damage from two equal sources (each contributing half damage):
Magma - Fire/acid
Sun - Electricity/Fire
Silt - Acid/Cold
Rain - Electricity/Cold
3. Arguments:
One could conceivably use sonic for earth (seismic activity), air (music/voice), or water (tsunami).
Rain and water could both potentially use acid. pH is based on the autoionization of water afterall. Earth's acid trait was likely originated from the concept of mineral acids. Though how accurate it would be for earth, I'm not really sure.
Fire/acid for magma, I like because damage would likely be both heat and chemical related.
Fire/electricity for sun also makes sense. Stars exist as plasma as does the matter stream within a lightning bolt. Alternatively one could use radiation as an energy type.
Does cold = water really make sense? I guess it does in the sense that water is the opposite of fire.
Silt really seems like more of a quasi-element in the grand scheme of things. I wonder if the plane of dust just stomped out ooze. Of all the energies for silt negative makes the most sense.
Not all damage is of energy origin. Poison and disease may damage. Thus one could call magma or silt a damage origin but not an energy origin per se.
- Radnovius
1. Ruhl-Than, I like elemental heal effects (they seem in line with the novels), but should they be as powerful as channeling positive energy? What do you think of my elemental infusion spell above in this thread? I think it may be too complicated and too weak.
I see no reason to make elemental healing somehow weaker than an abstract positive-energy healing that won't even really exist on Athas if you use this system.
If no one's using positive energy to heal, why make elemental healing weaker?
Additionally, using this sort of descriptions, you can continue to allow spontaneous healing by letting the cleric channel the healing power of his element.
Something you could alternatively do, is allow elemental clerics to spontaneously heal, and paraelemental clerics spontaneously inflict rather than use alignment. The Elements have restorative powers, while the Paraelements have destructive ones.
Something you could alternatively do, is allow elemental clerics to spontaneously heal, and paraelemental clerics spontaneously inflict rather than use alignment. The Elements have restorative powers, while the Paraelements have destructive ones.
I think that's what Sysane does.
If you want to House Rule in an energy type for each element and paraelement you can, but it won't be standard 3E.
Isn’t there a variant rule in some book – Unearthed Arcana, Planar’s Handbook, Manual of the Planes, Player’s Handbook II, Dungeon Master Guide II – which offers alternate energy types?