I am GMing for an old-time gamer (the man's in his late 50s, and has played fantasy roleplaying games since they first came out), who is blissfully unaware of Dark Sun, an old TSR setting he knows only the name of and nothing else. Right now I am running him through a Dragonlance 3.5 game, but as he's played almost every setting before, but not Dark Sun, I thought I would surprise him by moving his character to Athas permanently.
(Before anyone asks, "Well, why didn't you just play Dark Sun from the start? The answer is, I only found this out two days ago. And as for, "Why don't you just stop playing DL and start playing DS?", the answer is, because he's had GMs do that to him countless times before, so I thought this is the best way to introduce him to a new campaign setting, and keep playing the same character.)
Right now he's playing a 3rd-level cleric (of Zivilyn)/2nd-level rogue elf, and the "supporting cast" of NPCs he controls in battle consists of a 3rd-level wizard/1st-level White Robe human, a 4th-level mariner human, and a 4th-level dwarf fighter. All are good-aligned. The game is set during the opening year of the War of the Lance, and Silvanesti has just fallen to the Dream.
My idea is is that they discover a magic item that'll send them to Athas, and bind them there, but I don't want it to be some random encounter with a cursed item. My idea is, is that the Wizards of High Sorcery discovered Athas some 200 years ago, and discovered the horrors arcane magic have inflicted upon that cosmology. So, they invented a device to send renegades there and bind them there, wqith bindings so strong only a god of Divine Rank 0 or higher can undo. (And as Athas has no gods, this pretty much means permanent exile.)
I'm not wanting the party to be exiled purposely by the Conclave, yet at the same time, I don't want them to go by total accident, either. I want the trip to happen at 10th-level, and I want it to be a permanent, one-way trip.
--can anyone give me some ideas? NB
Sorry Nero, gotta find someone else for the crossdressing. :D
Or he could find a cursed amulet of the planes- one that makes the trip one way only, and to a "random" plane- ie Athas.
Give him a powerful wand or staff, that later gets sundered and the resulting violent release of the energy rips a hold into the fabric of space and time, tearing him from Kyrnn to Athas.
I have to agree with Pennarin that I am NOT a fan of this idea- I threw up a little bit in my mouth (needs mouth wash now), but I am all for throwing some ideas your way.
You should know that he will loose ALL divine spellcasting abilities and his ability to use arcane spells will be crippled until he learns the method of drawing the power from plant life- his connection to the his god and the moons of Kyrnn will be totally severed.
The party find out that an evil wizzard plans to threaten to the world with a dangerous experiment. While the party challange that villain, they disrupt his experiment, oppening gates to several foreign planes. In addition a disintigrating wave slowy approaches the party and cuts them off from any other exits, but entering one of the gates. In the meantime several demonic creatures step out of their planes threatening the party, leaving only one gate to go.
You can describe how some of the demonic creatures got disintigrated as the wave touches them, that should force the party to act quickly. In addition if the wave reaches one of the gates, the gate closes. If they choose to step through the gate, they find themselves in a foreign area....for you known as athas.
As the great earthquake isn't really explained (IIRC), that ripping a fissure in the screening field of athas causes a huge quake in all its planes.
The only big problem I see, is that the cleric would loose his abilities (turn/rebuke and to cast spells), because his god wouldn't be able to grant him this powers. Don't know he is going to like that.
--and Bengeldorn, I love your idea! NB
/retches...retches some more...coughs out hairball
Sorry Nero, gotta find someone else for the crossdressing. :D
Thank you for that useless non-contribution.
--please leave the thread unless you have something to contribute NB
--and Bengeldorn, I love your idea! NB
Thanks, but be told that this scenrio still offers some other ways, for example casting a teleport spell. If the party is going to find an alternative option, you should let them do that IMO. My experience was, that players don't like to be forced to much (unfortunatelly it happens a lot that nothing realy happens if I don't force them to do anything
).Thank you for that useless non-contribution.
--please leave the thread unless you have something to contribute NB
Don't be so serious NB. Joking is rarely innapropriate on the boards, and this instance certainly didn't qualify as one of those times. It didn't prevent you from getting the answers you needed either.
Here's an idea I came up with between bouts of coughing...don't say I never gave you nothing ;) :
You could have a Great Cataclysm-like mountain of stone threatening - yet again - to fall on Krynn be diverted by heroes/gods to another plane of existence, ending up on Athas and falling on the Hinterlands, causing the Great Earthquake. Your player's character is sucked in with the mountain and is propelled unto the grassy fields of the Hinterlands, and after finding his breath witnesses the mountain falling on the land. Its free year 10. He walks east, away from the fires, and stumbles unto Tyr. Voilà.
I know a lot of DS purists don't like the DS/Ravenloft connection either, but since you're already mixing things up....
I know a lot of DS purists don't like the DS/Ravenloft connection either, but since you're already mixing things up....
Yeah, Ravenloft already has a Dragonlance connection, might as well mix it in with the Dark Sun connection.
The Ravenloft/Dragonlance/Dark Sun connection is an interesting thought, but is there any known way to escape Ravenloft? I have only a very cursory familiarity with the Demiplane of Dread, but I thought it is supposed to be impossible to escape, not just extremely difficult like Athas. How does one go about escaping from that miserable, Gothic purgatory?
DM Fiat was always the only way to get out. The Mists do what they want, and ergo what the DM wants.
[Edit] Of course its different for different people. Dread lords don't escape, but I always assumed regular heroes weren't bound to the demiplane in the same way.
1. Athas is on the Prime Material Plane just like Krynn and the other worlds. For the Spelljammers out there, it is in an undiscovered crystal sphere. So a plane shift wouldn't send someone there. The most likely route would have to be through the outer planes or Sigil.
2. Bengeldorn's idea sounds pretty good, but instead of a portal to Athas, send them to Sigil, the city of doors. There they meet an Athasian bard who promises them a trip back to the prime material plane for all their valuables. He has a portal key that allows travel back and forth to Athas and opens the portal for them. Once they are through, they'll have to figure out how the bard got his portal key to get back to Sigil and eventually home to Krynn.
3. There are no gods of Athas (at least not in the Tyr region); however, a cleric who journeys there still has a god and still receives spells from his/her deity. (There's a temple in the bowels of I believe Tyr that still might be linked to a god. Read the Prism Pentad for specifics.) Now you can make some reference to distance of the outer planes to Athas which may make spell casting more difficult. I know at least one Sorcerer King would take a girl to one of the outer planes, but I don't remember which one off the top of my head. (It's in one of the supplements).
4. Arcane wizards of Athas are different than other wizards. An Athasian defiler who was transported to Krynn would still defile. A wizard who travels there doesn't draw arcane magic from plant life and so casts spells normally. I know DL wizards are tied to the moons and so their magic might be warped in some manner if it works at all. Here's the next problem. Wizards from other worlds could probably not learn Athasian spells or would basically have to start over in learning magic.
I hope this helps. I'm just going on what I remember from planescape.
-Radnovius
3. There are no gods of Athas (at least not in the Tyr region); however, a cleric who journeys there still has a god and still receives spells from his/her deity. (There's a temple in the bowels of I believe Tyr that still might be linked to a god. Read the Prism Pentad for specifics.) Now you can make some reference to distance of the outer planes to Athas which may make spell casting more difficult. I know at least one Sorcerer King would take a girl to one of the outer planes, but I don't remember which one off the top of my head. (It's in one of the supplements).
4. Arcane wizards of Athas are different than other wizards. An Athasian defiler who was transported to Krynn would still defile. A wizard who travels there doesn't draw arcane magic from plant life and so casts spells normally. I know DL wizards are tied to the moons and so their magic might be warped in some manner if it works at all. Here's the next problem. Wizards from other worlds could probably not learn Athasian spells or would basically have to start over in learning magic.
I disagree with both of these things.
First, there's nothing to suggest that the gods can access Athas. If you're going with the standard "more followers = more power" any power hungry god would tap such a large source of potential believers if they could. The fact that none has suggest that gods are barred from Athas for whatever reasons. You're right, the old temples and such suggest that at some point there were gods, but that doesn't mean there still are.
Second, I'd say that it's not the method of learning that produces the defiling effect, but rather something innate to the world. The same way FR has the Weave, Dark Sun has life-energy. Each setting has a unique source of magical energy that wizards draw on in order to cast spells, and IMO it's setting dependent, not learned. Or perhaps you have to learn it, but it's not as though you can get it from anywhere else that the settings given source. A mage in Faerun has to draw power from the weave (or the shadow weave) regardless of whether they're a native or from some other plane. In the same way a mage on Athas has to use plant energy to power his spells, regardless of his origin.
1. Belief in the gods of Athas died out and likely the gods of Athas are floating in the astral plane or are so weak that they can no longer grant spells. On the other hand, perhaps the gods feel that Athas is undeserving of their interest. It is a dying world. Alternatively the gods could feel that Athas needs a time without them to sink or swim. Something similar occurred in Krynn if I recall correctly.
2. Even if that is the case, one would expect that the way of drawing energy would be different in different worlds. This could take two forms. Either A: A spell designed to draw energy from the weave would simply not work on Athas (unless the weave is there too and Athasians just don't know about it). The wizard would have to learn the Athasian version of spells. or B: The wizard learns to tap the arcane energy source of the world in which he lives, and then works magic with it. Then a wizard would have to learn how to draw energy, but his spells should still work normally. Given the preserver/defiler distinction B makes the most sense.
3. What I came up with is what I recall from playing Planescape (a 2E campaign setting a friend of mine had). Does anyone have the Planescape info? They had a lot about Athas. For instance, I remember reading that prime material bards were regarded as wimps through a lot of planes unless they were from Athas.
-Radnovius
Either A: A spell designed to draw energy from the weave would simply not work on Athas (unless the weave is there too and Athasians just don't know about it). The wizard would have to learn the Athasian version of spells. or B: The wizard learns to tap the arcane energy source of the world in which he lives, and then works magic with it. Then a wizard would have to learn how to draw energy, but his spells should still work normally. Given the preserver/defiler distinction B makes the most sense.
I definitely agree that a wizard suddenly finding himself on Athas could have trouble casting his spells. You could certainly run it that way.
You could also allow that the mage might go through the same process he usually goes through, for FR mages tapping into the Weave, for DL mages the moons (or however they do it, I'm not too familiar with DL), and instead finds himself drawing from the life-energy of plants around him. Only instead of being the limitless source of magical energy that something like the Weave is, it's a very limited source of energy. Since there's no need to control the energy you pull when you're pulling from something like the Weave, off-world mages might find themselves as defilers, until they can learn to control themselves.
I'd probably go with the latter, if only to introduce the players to the harsh nature of life beneath the Crimson Sun. Nothing says tough like casting a spell and finding you've killed off everything around you.
As for the God thing, we may have to agree to disagree. I simply don't like the idea that gods can exist on Athas any more. I think it severely detracts from the feel of the setting. If you want to allow off-world clerics to contact their gods though, you could definitely come up with some feasible explanations.
Lastly, with regards to Planescape, I enjoyed the setting, and have most of the released materials, however, I think it led to a lot of the contextual problems. The idea that every world is connected is an interesting one, but in practice its harder to justify. The God question we're already discussing is one. If Chaundea or Silvanus can just walk into Athas if they want to, why wouldn't they come in, be saviors and find a whole new power base. Sure you can use they "they're busy" excuse for one or two nature gods, but the multiverse-according-to-Planescape has an infinite number of them. Likewise you run into problems with high-level NPCs. Whats to stop Elminster or Mordenkainen (or Raistlin or the Simbul or Fzoul or...) from coming to Athas (or any other setting)? The Planescape answer is nothing, but as soon as that becomes possible, things start to fall apart or at the very least get mucky.
I prefer to keep planar travel less controllable, and therefore more in the hands of the DM.
The party retrieved the item but it was not the artifact but rather a way to find it. They were instead transported to Dark Sun (unknown to them it was actually in the future of their world: evillaugh). I did NOT tell them they were in Dark Sun.
They found the item under Tyr but they were captured by King Kalak's forces and lost it. Try as they might, they were unable to recover the item.
In my campaign, I hate deux ex machina so they are usually turned out to be red herrings. No exception here.
Eventually, they gave up and returned to their own time but by the time they returned (70 days), Vecna's armies had engulfed most of Oerth.
They had lost. Eventually, they defeated Vecna but without some silly special item to do all the work for them, like a magic wand. After they defeated Vecna, I started the Dark Sun Campaign. Boy were they surprised to be back in Tyr!
If you really want your Dragonlance players to become Dark Sun players there may be some issues; my players encountered all of these problems during their jaunt to Dark Sun.
1) They will not look right to the gen pop. Expect them to have minuses obtaining information and services. If they are human, they will still not fit in. Humans just look different here.
2) They will not have the correct racial abilities. This means they will be at a disadvantage.
3) The skills and feats obtained in other worlds will not likely prepare them life on Athas.
4) They are not aware of the laws and will very likely end up slaves/imprisoned.
5) They will have metal weapons and had better hold onto them tightly. People with metal will be targeted by thieves.
6) They will not have the correct coin and may have trouble exchanging.
7) Even the common tongue they speak will make them sound like foreigners.
My old party of adventurers averaged 9th level. I can only imagine the ruff time your party will have.
My 2 cents:
1) Either give them a short adventure in Dark Sun, with a quick in and out scenario of ten days, OR and my preferred option...
2) Just start a Dark Sun campaign in Dark Sun and leave all that baggage behind!
Good luck!
. . .The idea that every world is connected is an interesting one, but in practice its harder to justify. The God question we're already discussing is one. If Chaundea or Silvanus can just walk into Athas if they want to, why wouldn't they come in, be saviors and find a whole new power base. Sure you can use they "they're busy" excuse for one or two nature gods, but the multiverse-according-to-Planescape has an infinite number of them. Likewise you run into problems with high-level NPCs. Whats to stop Elminster or Mordenkainen (or Raistlin or the Simbul or Fzoul or...) from coming to Athas (or any other setting)? The Planescape answer is nothing, but as soon as that becomes possible, things start to fall apart or at the very least get mucky...
We probably won't see eye to eye on this one but I'm content to continue to disagree. Consider the following: Can a god manifest on a world where no one believes in him? Would an all powerful epic-level mage go somewhere where his magic doesn't work? Maybe a god or two was squished by a dragon? Maybe the Githyanki/Githzerai using Athas as a warzone made the world unpalatable to outsiders of the Outer Planes. These are all possibilities. The other is that how many worlds exist on the prime material plane, millions perhaps? What are the odds that any one would come to something's notice?
-Radnovius
Simple proposal... fast forward tens of thousands of years. Fill in your own blanks for linking the Dragonlance "past" with the Dark Sun "present".
PC steps through to the distant future, feels a distinct absence due to his connection to his god being severed.
There will be little issue of conversion and such. For instance, this issue: at some time have him approached by some hermit elemental cleric who can sense the PC's talent and offers to mentor him in the ways of the elements... game speak the PC gets to convert his Dragonlance cleric levels into some elemental cleric levels 1-for-1. Or some other method that fits your story better.
But anyway... I'd say you have a chance with Ravenloft, if people could get out. Another possibility would be along the lines of my personal view of the Athasian cosmology. I believe that the Plane of Mirrors (I believe it is covered in the MotP), which is a transitive plane like the Astral, Ethereal, and Shadow planes, still is connected with Athas correctly. It just is virtually unheardof (I tend to think this is how the Dimensional Gate that Dregoth has works). The character(s) could possibly end up slipping through the Plane of Mirrors, and end up in Athas... Of course there isn't all that many mirrors available, maybe it took only some sort of reflective surface that broke when the characters came through, blocking off their passage.
When they do come through, I'd probably have metal items decay and become brittle, breaking apart into pyrite-like grains of uselessness (rather than items mysteriously and inexplicably changing to their athasian equivalents).
There was a cleric of a fire god in City by the Silt Sea that still recieved spells from his god albiet diminshed to only 1st and 2nd level. Of course, he was a cleric of a Fire god, which could explain how he was still drawing spells.
He could have just been serving a particular Fire Elemental Patron, like the Earth Cleric in one of the other supplements(I can't remember which one.)
An Athasian Cleric would have no way of knowing the difference.