IMC, gods of other campaigns and immortals of Mystara are one in the same, only the propensity for ascention is greater in Mystara. As proof of my "theory":
1-In DL, Raistlin ascends to near godhood, even so that he is referred to, in DL canon, as a demigod. At the end of "Dragons of Summer Flame" all the dead heroes from the War of the Lance are discovered to be "living" in the heavens, overlooking the world.
2-In FR, reference the Avatar Trilogy--Cyric, Kelemvor and Midnight all become full-fledged gods.
3-Also in FR, Bane, Bhaal, and a third god (I don't have my reference material at hand) are referred to as the "Dead Three" and all have mortal history. Bane, in particular, is stated that, during his mortal life, he swore to become a god from the very beginning.
4-In GH, most of the core deities, and nearly all of the "extras" have b/g stories as mortals. Reference "Faiths and Pantheons"
I don't know about Eberron.
5-The new 3.5 Deities and Demigods has an entire chapter on ascending from mortality to godhood. The god-powers are divided into groupings of levels, which correspond quite easily to immortal ranks, with 0-5 levels of "Demigod" being associated with "Initiate" and 21+ levels of "Over Power" being equivelant of "Hierarch".
6-Certain "Gods" and "Immortals" are quite easily, and explicitly one-and-the-same (also leading to the suggestion that all the gods and their associated campaign worlds, whether via a shared cosmology, Spelljammer, or Planescape, are all coexistant with each other, but that is another topic). Primarily Garal Glitterlode and Kurtulmak, not to mention those who are obvious equivelants like Pelor and Ixion.
7-According to Ed Greenwood's "The Wizards Three" and the Ravenloft setting, inter-world clerics still recieve their spells by their own deities, even if that deity doesn't have a counterpart on the current world. (Again, suggesting a singular shared inter-setting cosmology between the settings.)
8-Every adventure and accessory preceeding (and some printed after) the "Set 5: Immortals Rules" all Mystaran immortals were referred to as gods, giving way to the idea that the common folk think of the immortals as gods, and not until Master (Epic, in my conversion) levels when PCs are allowed to learn the existance of the paths of immortality, do mortals make any distinction between god and immortal. (On this aspect, IMC, I try to express to my players that their PCs worship Gods, even though the players themselves know the difference.)
9-The only possible problem is the over-abundance of Over-Powers/Hierarchs. But I think, due to the high-powered levels of Mystara, it is appropriate. While most campaigns have a handful of epic-level NPCs, and one or two over-powers, Mystara has thousands of Epics, and apropriately dozens of Hierarchs. There are more Immortal canidates simply because there are more people--specifically high-level people. It's a matter of statistics and probabilities. (The Known World [a quarter of a continent] has a population aproximate to that of Faerun [a whole continent] and about 50% more than Ansalon [half a world]. Only Oerth has a greater population density, and their commoner-to-adventurer population ratio is vastly removed from the other settings.)
With that said, I think, there is enough evidence that immortal=god.
On a side note, I've always been of the opinion that all the campaign settings exist as various planets in the same universe, in the same (and only) Prime Material Plane, with a singular, shared cosmology (being, in fact, somewhere between the Great Wheel and the Multiverse). The apparent differences in cosmologies between the settings is due to he sage's limited, and incomplete understanding of planar cossmology--with Mystara and GH sages being the closest to truth, but still a bit off.
Food for thought,
Roger
P.S. Would someone plese post this message to the MML for me, so that List-Only folks can share their thoughts on this topic. (And reply here when you do so, to prevent 20 people from sending the same message to the list.)
P.S. Would someone plese post this message to the MML for me, so that List-Only folks can share their thoughts on this topic. (And reply here when you do so, to prevent 20 people from sending the same message to the list.)
Done.
By the way, I fully agree with your conclusion:
Immortals = Gods
That's simply all there is to it. If you want to make Mystara and other settings compatible, you just have to change the terminology. Merge whatever Immortals/Gods you can into separate identities of the same being, and the problem is solved - quick and dirty. :D
4-In GH, most of the core deities, and nearly all of the "extras" have b/g stories as mortals. Reference "Faiths and Pantheons"
Faiths and Pantheons is FR, not GH.
Of the Core deities, only Vecna has a definite mortal existence, with Cuthbert merely strongly implied.
For the GH "extras," only the large number of Hero-Deities added later on have a mortal history. Very few of the "original" GH deities have any sort of directly acknowledged mortal history.
Only Oerth has a greater population density, and their commoner-to-adventurer population ratio is vastly removed from the other settings.
The population density of the Flanaess (the detailed area of Oerth) hovers around 15-20 people/square mile for most areas. That is very low, and is frequently commented on.
Otherwise, the whole Immortals vs. Deities thing is pretty obviously an artifact of the MMS wimpout era at TSR, and some just won't ever want to call them deities because the books say they really aren't.
If by "god" you mean a higher power being that can support clerics, then yeah Immortal = god. But if you want to the use the term in the context of what mortal characters perceive, then this isn't necessarily so.
Al-Kalim is viewed as the great prophet of the Eternal Truth. Same with Yav.
Halav, Petra, and Zirchev are legendary heroes, akin to saints for the Traladarans.
Odin and Ixion, OTOH, are seen as "gods" by their followers.
In fact this perception issue can play out in your campaign. For H/P/Z, you could have the Church of Karameikos adopted them as deific entities - just three more in the collection - vs the Church of Traladara who see them as very important inspirational figures.
You also should consider the intention of the Immortals as presented in the Masters and Immortals sets. They were meant to be plane-explorers not fiddling about with mortal (Mystara) concerns.
-OldDawg
In Eberron, gods are distant, and non-interacting, and divine magic is powered by the caster's faith in the powers-that-be.
Faiths and Pantheons is FR, not GH.
Oops, I placed the reference in the wrong spot, that should have been after no. 3
Of the Core deities, only Vecna has a definite mortal existence, with Cuthbert merely strongly implied.
For the GH "extras," only the large number of Hero-Deities added later on have a mortal history. Very few of the "original" GH deities have any sort of directly acknowledged mortal history.
I'm 150 miles from home for another week, without my books, so I'll reserve conceit and/or rebuttal of this statement for a later time.
The population density of the Flanaess (the detailed area of Oerth) hovers around 15-20 people/square mile for most areas. That is very low, and is frequently commented on.
The RW population density of Europe during the 15th c. CE is estimated to average 12.5 (adult) people per square mile. Modern day America averages 78, with an average "median" city bing about 100. Only in the bigest cityies does it aproach the thousands expected in an industrialized society (Despite it's population and big cities, America has A LOT! of open space).
Now on to game mechanics. Most KW nations are quite low. Karameikos being the median, averages 9.9. Only Darokin (20) and the explicitly metropolis Thyatian mainland (48) meet or exceed GH's average. That does not count Thyatian colonies (which would make the average drop) or Alphatia pre-WotI (which is horrendously large and can even compete with modern day America--it was the population of half a planet settling a small sub-continent after all.)
Although I didn't know the numbers for GH were 15-20, my statement still holds true. By modern comparison, that is ghostly low, but it is still nearly twice the RW population during the medieval era.
I did not take into account the SC or HW, but I do not think they would be too high.
Roger
According to the Gazetteer.
Oops, I placed the reference in the wrong spot, that should have been after no. 3
I wondered if that might be it.
I'm 150 miles from home for another week, without my books, so I'll reserve conceit and/or rebuttal of this statement for a later time.
Reasonable enough.
The RW population density of Europe during the 15th c. CE is estimated to average 12.5 (adult) people per square mile. Modern day America averages 78, with an average "median" city bing about 100. Only in the bigest cityies does it aproach the thousands expected in an industrialized society (Despite it's population and big cities, America has A LOT! of open space).
France was at 100 people/square mile by the 14th century. It is nearing 300/square mile now. (Yes, the US is very lightly populated by that reckoning.)
Overall Eurpean population density before the Black Death varied from 30 to 100/square mile. (I believe that is overall, not merely adult.)
Although I didn't know the numbers for GH were 15-20, my statement still holds true. By modern comparison, that is ghostly low, but it is still nearly twice the RW population during the medieval era.
Actually, adjusting for land quality, it is probably around one-fourth the RW population densities.
I think the obvious thing is, we are using vastly different baselines for RW population densities.
And, while it appears Mystara has a rather low population density, I get the impression that FR has a lot more people. I am neither familiar with, nor have access to, any specific data for it though.