Templars without Sorcerer-Kings - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Templars without Sorcerer-Kings

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
mystictheurge
May 22, 2006 16:45:29 I just started reading War of the Spider Queen series and, despite being FR, it provides an interesting insight into Templars who've lost their sorcerer-kings.

The premise of the series is that Lloth stops granting her priestesses spells, leaving you with a society that has been dominated by a Theocracy for as long as anyone can remember, but that same ruling force no longer has the magical might that it used to.

A few ideas and/or questions that it's brought up are:

In the series the priestesses don't want anyone to find out that they can't cast spells any more. Kalak's death was a little to public to expect anything similar to happen in Tyr, but do you suppose templars in any of the other kingless city-states might continue to try to pass themselves off as magically endowed for any length of time following the events of the Cerulean Storm?

The second thing that comes up is that the priestesses continue to rely heavily on magical items to provide them with power. Granted FR is a much more equipment/magic heavy setting than DS, but how much magic do you suppose templars have still tucked away in item form? Scrolls, wands, staff, rings? Do you suppose an enterprising templar or group of templars could raid the royal apartments and come up with significantly more?

I'd definitely suggest giving the series a read if you want to some ideas on how the lack of spells might end up affecting a theocratic society.
#2
Pennarin
May 22, 2006 19:48:09 A primer to War of the Spider Queen is the adventure City of the Spider Queen. For those who don't have the novels that book might reveal similar information about the former Lloth priestesses.

Btw, that adventure is the single best designed, best illustrated 3E adventure, and the one with the best graphic layout.
#3
greyorm
May 22, 2006 20:21:39
Granted FR is a much more equipment/magic heavy setting than DS, but how much magic do you suppose templars have still tucked away in item form? Scrolls, wands, staff, rings? Do you suppose an enterprising templar or group of templars could raid the royal apartments and come up with significantly more?

Back in the day, magic items could ruin your campaign -- any campaign, not just DarkSun -- they were imbalanced, ridiculously random, and never guaranteed to be even across characters, problems which basically fed on each other to create larger problems.

3rd edition fixed this by integrating magic items into the system better, providing rules about how and when to hand them out, and how many a character should have at a given level.

Unfortunately, because of the problems with magic items in older editions of D&D, one of the bugaboos that was dragged over when many of us old-timers switched to 3rd Edition was "teh phear of teh magix itemz!" It is usually disguised as arguments about how DarkSun shouldn't HAVE too many magic items because (supposedly) it violates the world's existing 'color', yadda, yadda, yadda.

I suggest such arguments are even less valid than "but halflings can't be wizards!", as there is nothing I recall in the rules to suggest that magic items are or should be more rare on Athas than on other D&D-fantasy worlds (feel free to contradict me if I'm wrong...IDHTBIFOM).

Regardless, the new rules make it problematic to reduce the number of magic items from standard, as the system is balanced to include them, so for mechanical reasons we should assume a reasonably similar level and spread of magical technology available to adventurers and their nemeses as in any standard D&D setting.

That said, one might convince me that arcane magic items are rare, given that wizards are supposed to be rare and feared (even though some of the trading houses hire defilers...sheesh...that's like Microsoft hiring terrorist bombers!), but I don't buy that clerical, druidic, and psionic items would also be rare.

These, in fact, should fill the gap left by the scarcity of arcane magics (though there are undoubtedly caches of ancient magic stored away in forgotten ruins in the desert from the time of the Cleansing Wars), and be the main source of magical equipment (or 'blessed' equipment, if one prefers a distinctive term).

Now, given what a bunch of self-important, scheming, wanna-be dicators most templars are, it's a sure bet they've been creating and stockpiling clerical items...just in case anything inopportune should happen to them personally and they should fall from the grace of their Sorcerer-king.

Of course, the question here becomes: would items blessed and created with the divine magics of a Sorcerer-king continue to function after his death? Or would they have a kill-switch built in to their creation process to prevent powerful templars from stockpiling safety-measures?

That is, would they function be reliant on the ability to channel energy from the Sorcerer-king, or does the enchantment process directly connect them to or borrow and instill the energies of the elemental planes (as with templar spells)?

How one decides that can be quite significant to the campaign and the possible story-lines that could spawn from it.
#4
burningspear
Aug 20, 2006 13:47:21
Of course, the question here becomes: would items blessed and created with the divine magics of a Sorcerer-king continue to function after his death? Or would they have a kill-switch built in to their creation process to prevent powerful templars from stockpiling safety-measures?

That is, would they function be reliant on the ability to channel energy from the Sorcerer-king, or does the enchantment process directly connect them to or borrow and instill the energies of the elemental planes (as with templar spells)?

i dont think so, each item is made, link severed, from magic wich made it, and therefore permanent untill destroyed.
#5
zombiegleemax
Aug 20, 2006 14:24:24
Of course, the question here becomes: would items blessed and created with the divine magics of a Sorcerer-king continue to function after his death? Or would they have a kill-switch built in to their creation process to prevent powerful templars from stockpiling safety-measures?

I would rule that, like scrolls, the magic or divine energies used in their creation are permanent until used or destroyed, etc.
#6
zombiegleemax
Sep 01, 2006 10:11:18 I would also rule that templars without a SK can still use spell completion items as normal (i.e. templar without SK can still use a scroll of "hold person") as long as it was on the templar class spell list... and still can use items that require a character to be a templar, etc... somewhat unrelated, i know... but still quite handy to know... think.. maybe that is helping the templars of Draj keep control along with the help of the psionicists...
#7
huntercc
Sep 01, 2006 19:25:28
each item is made, link severed, from magic wich made it, and therefore permanent untill destroyed.

I tend to agree with this as well, but then again it would be very interesting to make a house rule that either
renders such items useless,
weakens them in some way, or
has their power decay over time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mystictheurge May 22, 2006 16:45:29	I just started reading War of the Spider Queen series and, despite being FR, it provides an interesting insight into Templars who've lost their sorcerer-kings. The premise of the series is that Lloth stops granting her priestesses spells, leaving you with a society that has been dominated by a Theocracy for as long as anyone can remember, but that same ruling force no longer has the magical might that it used to. A few ideas and/or questions that it's brought up are: In the series the priestesses don't want anyone to find out that they can't cast spells any more. Kalak's death was a little to public to expect anything similar to happen in Tyr, but do you suppose templars in any of the other kingless city-states might continue to try to pass themselves off as magically endowed for any length of time following the events of the Cerulean Storm? The second thing that comes up is that the priestesses continue to rely heavily on magical items to provide them with power. Granted FR is a much more equipment/magic heavy setting than DS, but how much magic do you suppose templars have still tucked away in item form? Scrolls, wands, staff, rings? Do you suppose an enterprising templar or group of templars could raid the royal apartments and come up with significantly more? I'd definitely suggest giving the series a read if you want to some ideas on how the lack of spells might end up affecting a theocratic society.
#2 Pennarin May 22, 2006 19:48:09	A primer to War of the Spider Queen is the adventure City of the Spider Queen. For those who don't have the novels that book might reveal similar information about the former Lloth priestesses. Btw, that adventure is the single best designed, best illustrated 3E adventure, and the one with the best graphic layout.
#3 greyorm May 22, 2006 20:21:39	Granted FR is a much more equipment/magic heavy setting than DS, but how much magic do you suppose templars have still tucked away in item form? Scrolls, wands, staff, rings? Do you suppose an enterprising templar or group of templars could raid the royal apartments and come up with significantly more? Back in the day, magic items could ruin your campaign -- any campaign, not just DarkSun -- they were imbalanced, ridiculously random, and never guaranteed to be even across characters, problems which basically fed on each other to create larger problems. 3rd edition fixed this by integrating magic items into the system better, providing rules about how and when to hand them out, and how many a character should have at a given level. Unfortunately, because of the problems with magic items in older editions of D&D, one of the bugaboos that was dragged over when many of us old-timers switched to 3rd Edition was "teh phear of teh magix itemz!" It is usually disguised as arguments about how DarkSun shouldn't HAVE too many magic items because (supposedly) it violates the world's existing 'color', yadda, yadda, yadda. I suggest such arguments are even less valid than "but halflings can't be wizards!", as there is nothing I recall in the rules to suggest that magic items are or should be more rare on Athas than on other D&D-fantasy worlds (feel free to contradict me if I'm wrong...IDHTBIFOM). Regardless, the new rules make it problematic to reduce the number of magic items from standard, as the system is balanced to include them, so for mechanical reasons we should assume a reasonably similar level and spread of magical technology available to adventurers and their nemeses as in any standard D&D setting. That said, one might convince me that arcane magic items are rare, given that wizards are supposed to be rare and feared (even though some of the trading houses hire defilers...sheesh...that's like Microsoft hiring terrorist bombers!), but I don't buy that clerical, druidic, and psionic items would also be rare. These, in fact, should fill the gap left by the scarcity of arcane magics (though there are undoubtedly caches of ancient magic stored away in forgotten ruins in the desert from the time of the Cleansing Wars), and be the main source of magical equipment (or 'blessed' equipment, if one prefers a distinctive term). Now, given what a bunch of self-important, scheming, wanna-be dicators most templars are, it's a sure bet they've been creating and stockpiling clerical items...just in case anything inopportune should happen to them personally and they should fall from the grace of their Sorcerer-king. Of course, the question here becomes: would items blessed and created with the divine magics of a Sorcerer-king continue to function after his death? Or would they have a kill-switch built in to their creation process to prevent powerful templars from stockpiling safety-measures? That is, would they function be reliant on the ability to channel energy from the Sorcerer-king, or does the enchantment process directly connect them to or borrow and instill the energies of the elemental planes (as with templar spells)? How one decides that can be quite significant to the campaign and the possible story-lines that could spawn from it.
#4 burningspear Aug 20, 2006 13:47:21	Of course, the question here becomes: would items blessed and created with the divine magics of a Sorcerer-king continue to function after his death? Or would they have a kill-switch built in to their creation process to prevent powerful templars from stockpiling safety-measures? That is, would they function be reliant on the ability to channel energy from the Sorcerer-king, or does the enchantment process directly connect them to or borrow and instill the energies of the elemental planes (as with templar spells)? i dont think so, each item is made, link severed, from magic wich made it, and therefore permanent untill destroyed.
#5 zombiegleemax Aug 20, 2006 14:24:24	Of course, the question here becomes: would items blessed and created with the divine magics of a Sorcerer-king continue to function after his death? Or would they have a kill-switch built in to their creation process to prevent powerful templars from stockpiling safety-measures? I would rule that, like scrolls, the magic or divine energies used in their creation are permanent until used or destroyed, etc.
#6 zombiegleemax Sep 01, 2006 10:11:18	I would also rule that templars without a SK can still use spell completion items as normal (i.e. templar without SK can still use a scroll of "hold person") as long as it was on the templar class spell list... and still can use items that require a character to be a templar, etc... somewhat unrelated, i know... but still quite handy to know... think.. maybe that is helping the templars of Draj keep control along with the help of the psionicists...
#7 huntercc Sep 01, 2006 19:25:28	each item is made, link severed, from magic wich made it, and therefore permanent untill destroyed. I tend to agree with this as well, but then again it would be very interesting to make a house rule that either renders such items useless, weakens them in some way, or has their power decay over time.